Xylitol and Stevia toxic for pets?

[Laura]

Putting our dogs strictly on RAW meat has saved their lives.

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Xylotol and Stevia toxic for pets?

Yes, xylitol should not be consumed by dogs. It drops their blood sugar so low they can die. I never heard about stevia in this respect, though, so that may not be true.

Found this on a vet answer site:

Expert: Pet Doc replied 2 years ago.
Hi there,

Thank you for your question regarding giving Stevia for dogs. I assume you are talking about the artificial sweetener. One artificial sweetener in particular is very toxic to dogs - this is xylitol and any products containing xylitol should definitely be avoided. Stevia is actually pretty safe but can cause an osmotic diarrhea, so although it isn't going to cause the toxicity that xylitol would, it still isn't very ideal.

If you really want to give something like this - I would recommend a small amount of honey. This is very safe and tasty enough for your Lab boy!

I hope this helps.

Thanks and please now click ACCEPT.

Kind Regards,

Dr M D Edwards

Stevia is toxic to cats. We have two stevia plants that we harvest leaves from, and these are kept out of her reach by being suspended from the ceiling on hooks.

Hope this helps.

 

[Z...]

Facultative” means contingent, optional, or not required. In other words, their primary food is meat or prey but they are capable of surviving without them, perhaps not indefinitely but for long periods.

By this definition i suppose humans are also Facultative carnivores, no?

The emphasis is on bolded part, think of vegetarians or god forbid vegans.
I think you are too hung up on definitions :P - they are pretty rigid - but yes I think humans can safely be classified as facultative carnivores.

The thing is we lack hard data on how much wild canids rely on vegetable sources of food and the effect this may have on their health.

 

[davey72]

Putting our dogs strictly on RAW meat has saved their lives.

How long have they been on strictly raw meat, and will it be an ongoing indefinate period of time? Will you EVER consider giving them fruit or veggies again? Perhaps i am reading into this statement, as i think you recently said that they do enjoy tomatoes, and other fruit?

 

[Laura]

Putting our dogs strictly on RAW meat has saved their lives.

How long have they been on strictly raw meat, and will it be an ongoing indefinate period of time? Will you EVER consider giving them fruit or veggies again? Perhaps i am reading into this statement, as i think you recently said that they do enjoy tomatoes, and other fruit?

We feed them only raw meat and have done so for several years. A host of arthritic problems cleared right up. And before that, they were on a very good kibble that was supposed to be mostly lamb and rice! Our old guy was in so much pain, he could hardly get up and walk and he was constantly licking his bad leg until it was completely discolored. Now, he actually will chase his ball now and then and run to the mailbox. He's 12 years old this year. So, yeah, raw meat saved his life.

Once in a great while they'll steal something or if we drop it, they get it before we can so we let them have it. But basically, we've learned to only give them raw meat, give each one the correct amount for their weight and energy expenditures, and only feed once a day. It has really stabilized them, calmed them down, restored health, regulated bowel habits, etc.

So, no, I would never go back to the old way of feeding. I've seen the difference in real life, with 8 dogs.

Oh, should add that along with their raw meat, they get a ladle of bone broth and we divide up the bacon rinds among them. We also make our own pigskin chews for them.

 

[Lirpa]

Since switching my dogs to just raw meat/organs/bones and low carb veggies, they have changed into totally different dogs so I have to agree with Z and Laura. They both lost a lot of weight and their skin issues are turned around. I do divide their daily allotment into three meals a day because Katie has seizures and I read that low blood sugar can trigger seizures.

 

[Z...]

Does Katie have only night time seizures or throughout the day time as well?

 

[davey72]

Putting our dogs strictly on RAW meat has saved their lives.

How long have they been on strictly raw meat, and will it be an ongoing indefinate period of time? Will you EVER consider giving them fruit or veggies again? Perhaps i am reading into this statement, as i think you recently said that they do enjoy tomatoes, and other fruit?

We feed them only raw meat and have done so for several years. A host of arthritic problems cleared right up. And before that, they were on a very good kibble that was supposed to be mostly lamb and rice! Our old guy was in so much pain, he could hardly get up and walk and he was constantly licking his bad leg until it was completely discolored. Now, he actually will chase his ball now and then and run to the mailbox. He's 12 years old this year. So, yeah, raw meat saved his life.

Once in a great while they'll steal something or if we drop it, they get it before we can so we let them have it. But basically, we've learned to only give them raw meat, give each one the correct amount for their weight and energy expenditures, and only feed once a day. It has really stabilized them, calmed them down, restored health, regulated bowel habits, etc.

So, no, I would never go back to the old way of feeding. I've seen the difference in real life, with 8 dogs.

Oh, should add that along with their raw meat, they get a ladle of bone broth and we divide up the bacon rinds among them. We also make our own pigskin chews for them.

How have you figured out what exactly to feed them according to their size, breed, and energy expenditures?

 

[Z...]

How have you figured out what exactly to feed them according to their size, breed, and energy expenditures?

This is off topic but perhaps this thread could be split. Here is you info Davey:

Many dog owners are intimidated with the idea of preparing home made meals for their best friends. This is hardly a rocket science and making your own dog food is easier than you think, and can also be quite inexpensive!

In a nutshell

Domestic dogs’ diet should approximate the normal, natural diet that dogs would eat if they lived in the wild.

Therefore, species appropriate diet for dogs is based on animal protein sources and has a low grain, high vegetable carbohydrate ratio. Another important factor is moisture content, both dogs and cats were designed to eat a diet that contains about 70% moisture, which is what live prey contains. When we feed them entirely dry food diet – which normally contains not more then 12% moisture, dogs live in a chronic state of mild dehydration that ultimately can cause organ stress.

So to sum it up species appropriateness for our canine friends is high protein, high moisture with appropriate amount of unsaturated (animal) fat, and no starch.

Starch is found mostly in grains (wheat, corn, rice, soy) and also some tubers like potatoes. These are carbohydrates that are not biologically necessary and they can actually cause all sorts of health issues not just because of gluten that accompanies most of grains but whole host of other anti- nutrients that are usually found in them.

These days most of soy and corn from USA is genetically modified which presents another important health challenge. Having all this in mind starchy foods should never be on dogs’ menu.

Secondly but equally important – all food should be fed raw. Raw meaning unprocessed. Raw food contains whole range of vitamins, minerals, enzymes and micronutrients, which can be inactivated by relatively low temperatures. Therefore feeding unprocessed, unadulterated food is of utmost importance.

I also recommend a lot of variety. Whatever fruits and vegetables are in season or whatever meats you are able to source you can use them in rotation, which provides really good variety for your dog.

How to calculate quantities and balance the meal

It is very difficult to design an universal dog diet plan that would fit each and every type of dog. Some dogs have faster metabolism then others. Some dogs are more active then others.

Generally the amount of food dogs need on a daily bases for maintenance is about 2 - 3 % of their body weight.

Obviously this requirement is much higher depending on their expenditure of energy- for example, during the pregnancy or lactation the needs will go as high as 6%. For a moderately active dog 2.5 - 3 % body weight food intake would be optimal.

Once we have ascertained the weight of our dog the next step is to balance the meal. There is very simple formula for this : Out of the whole amount required on daily bases 75% should be comprised of raw meat. ‘Meat’ – means meat cuts together with some fat, organ meat, fish, bones, tripe etc. The remaining 25% is comprised of fresh fruit and vegetable content.

For example:

A dog that weighs 12 kilos and is moderately active (on average 2h of exercise per day) needs to get daily about 360 grams of food.

Out of these 360 grams, 270 grams should be meat and the remaining 90 grams fruits and vegetables.

If organ meat is fed daily then it shouldn’t exceed more then 1 quarter of total protein source. In our example this would be 90 grams. The meat shouldn’t be too lean, as dogs need animal fat as a source of energy.

The meat can be mixed with finely chopped vegetables or fruits such as carrots, parsnips, marrows, pumpkin, cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage and green beans. The vegetables can be lightly cooked or steamed. They are usually used as fillers.

These guidelines are foundation but then every individual case is different. Very energetic, highly-strung and hyperactive dogs like border collie type dogs for example, or some smaller breeds may have higher metabolic rate and may requite more energy.

The best rule of thumb here is to experiment with different quantities and feed the amount needed to maintain the optimum weight and proper energy level.

A check list

The most important thing when feeding home made meals to your dog is to have good relationship with your butcher. Ideally your butcher should prepare a mince with off cuts of meat that is still of good quality but normally not sold to people, organ meats such as liver, heart, lungs and kidneys. He should also be able to supply you with juicy bones that still have cartilage attached to them as well as chicken necks or other parts of chicken from reputable supplier. Never go for cheap frozen chicken originating from dubious sources in some far away countries.
Dont forget to add some water to your dogs meal, as discussed before whole pray contains up to 70% moisture. Regular serving of bone broth is excellent source of moisture and nurishment for your dog.
It is very important to feed only raw bones. Cooked bones can cause different issues and should be avoided at any cost.
Generally its best to use pork bones because they are much softer then beef bones and will be easier on your dogs’ teeth. The cartilage attached to them and marrow inside them contains essential fatty acids as well as substances like glucosamine and chondroitin, which are vital for you canine friend’s health.
Bones are the best natural source of calcium and when feeding this diet there is no need for calcium supplementation.
Since most of the meat available these days has unfavorable Omega -3/Omega-6/ Omega-9 ratio due to intensive farming practices its also very important to include good source of Omega-3 fatty acids. There are many products on the market and it is always important to read the label in order to make sure you supply your dog with at least 400mg of DHA and EPA on a daily bases. Some of these products are very expensive and yet they are very poor in Omega3 acids so this is something to bear in mind.
Green Tripe should be a regular component of canine menu and fed at least two times a week.
Raw egg is an excellent and inexpensive source of nutrients for your dog and it can be fed several times a week.
Dairy products should generally be avoided. Most of the dogs are not capable of digesting lactose but this is not the only issue, dairy products contain casein, a protein which is also dubbed as gluten’s evil twin which means that it can cause inflammation and allergic reactions. Butter is the safest of all dairy products as it contains minimal amounts of casein and it is packed with good fats. Some dogs tolerate well yogurt and sour cream. Just make sure to always avoid ‘low fat’ labels or fruity varieties.
Last but not least probiotics are very important supplement for any home made diet.

Having in mind basic guidelines mentioned above I encourage you to get creative with your dog’s meals. When it comes to quantities you should use common sense and size of the meal that looks appropriate for your dogs size.

The most important thing is to be perceptive of your companion’s reaction to the diet; weight loss and weight gain and adjust quantities accordingly.

Just for the illustration purposes this is what I normally feed my dogs on regular bases:

Morning Meal:

3 times a week - Raw meat/organ mince mixed with vegetables of the season.

3 times a week – Green tripe

Raw egg is added 3 times a week.

Evening Meal:

3 times a week - Raw bone with the attached joint surface

2 times a week - Chicken necks or wings – whole and raw

Once a week canned sardines or mackerel mixed with some vegetables

Once a week daily fast.

 

[davey72]

Thanks Z.

Here is some info on a strictly raw meat diet.

-http://www.squidoo.com/rawmeatdietfordogs

A Balanced Diet
How to Feed Your Dog the Right Way
Unfortunately, you can't just throw down a piece of meat and expect all to be well. Your dog needs variety and the proper ratio of meat, organs and bone to ensure he or she gets optimal nutrition. You should feed about 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ meat. Kidneys and liver are considered organ meat, while heart is a muscle and considered regular meat, not an organ. You don't need to be perfect every day, but try to see that over the course of a week your dog gets that approximate ratio. Some people find they need to feed a little extra bone to keep stools firm, and that is up to you and your dog. Incidentally, stools will be smaller and may be crumbly from the bone and that is norma.

The traditional guideline is to feed 2% of their body weight (for puppies feed 2% of their expected weight as a full grown dog).

Dogs are carnivores. A raw diet is a species appropriate diet. Look at your dog's teeth. They have the teeth of a carnivore.

Dog's digestive systems are different than ours. They have very acidic stomachs that neutralize the bacteria in raw meat. That, along with their heavy bile production, protects them from bacteria that would make you are me sick. By feeding a meat-based diet to your dog you are eliminating stress on their digestive system.

A diet containing raw meats such as beef, chicken, venison, turkey, pork, venison, lamb and others provided the essential nutrients for your dog in a form they can easily digest. They are not losing key enzymes destroyed by the high heat process used in making kibble. Remember that kibble was only invented in the last century. Dogs have been eating raw meat for thousands of years and in the short time kibble has been around dog's digestive systems have not adapted for them to live optimally on a kibble only diet.

Healthier immune system. Because your dog is eating as nature intended, their immune system will be healthier. Dog owners often see a reduction in dry skin and allergy problems, shinier, healthier fur and an increase in energy in their pets.

Cleaner Teeth. The gnawing and chewing that meat and bones provide dental stimulation and help remove tarter and keep teeth cleaner.

Important minerals. Raw bones contain calcium, phosphorus and trace minerals, important nutrients for your dog. The majority of the bone meal purchased by pet food manufacturers comes from China or Thailand. I don't know about you, but I tend to avoid any ingredients coming from China because of safety concerns, including high levels of heavy metals.

The gnawing and chewing also satisfies dog's innate need to chew. It provides positive mental stimulation.

You know exactly what your dog is eating. This is an important point. Do you REALLY know what is in that high end kibble you pay big bucks for? Remember that anything in a bag is processed and the labeling laws for pet food are rather lax. Even though the label says no preservatives added, they may already be in the individual ingredients before the manufacturer combines them at the final stage.

Veterinary schools typically only teach about commercial diets, they are not taught about species appropriate diets. Sadly, many vets are agains raw meat diets because they just haven't learned enough about them.

Variety is the Spice of Your Dog's Life
Your dog will be thrilled to not be eating the same old kibble day in, day out. Variety is the name of the game with raw. You will want to start slowly and only feed chicken (bone-in) such as a breast in the beginning. There willl be an adjustment period for a week or so and your dog may have loose stools. This again, is quite common. It will go away as your dog gets used to his new diet. And did I say there will be less to clean up? Remember he doesn't have all those starchy carbs from grains, potatoes, sweet potatoes or tapioca, which are all common binders in commercial dog food.

After your dog adjusts, add in one new meat. Meats on the menu include chicken, turkey, duck, beef, pork, lamb, rabbit, venison, goat. Be careful not to serve cut bones like pork chops because those sharp bones can cause a lot of grief. Also beware of chicken wings and never feed them to medium or large sized dogs. They are a choking hazard and suitable for toy dogs only.

I like serving bone-in chicken, pork picnic roasts and pork ribs. I shy away from beef ribs and beef bones altogether because they are so hard they can break your dog's teeth.

And from here: -http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/guide/raw-dog-food-dietary-concerns-benefits-and-risks

Potential benefits of the raw dog food diet that supporters tout include:

Shinier coats
Healthier skin
Cleaner teeth
Higher energy levels
Smaller stools

Potential risks include:

Threats to human and dog health from bacteria in raw meat
An unbalanced diet that may damage the health of dogs if given for an extended period
Potential for whole bones to choke an animal, break teeth or cause an internal puncture

Since Billinghurst’s book,Give Your Dog a Bone, was published, several other types of raw dog food diets have emerged, including commercially processed raw food diets that are frozen or freeze-dried and combination diets that use blends of grains, vegetables, and vitamins that are mixed with raw meat purchased by the owner at the grocery store.

Raw dog food recipes and meal suggestions are readily found online and in books. Interest from pet owners continues to grow, with the widespread recall of melamine-contaminated pet food in 2007 bringing in new followers.

Foods Your Dog Should Never Eat
Raw dog food diet: What it is

A raw dog food diet typically consists of:

Muscle meat, often still on the bone
Bones, either whole or ground
Organ meats such as livers and kidneys
Raw eggs
Vegetables like broccoli, spinach, and celery
Apples or other fruit
Some dairy, such as yogurt

And this shows foods that dogs should never eat: -http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/ss/slideshow-foods-your-dog-should-never-eat

 

[Lirpa]

Does Katie have only night time seizures or throughout the day time as well?

I adopted her about a year and a few months ago. She has not had any seizures that I have witnessed. Her previous vet records indicate that she loses bladder control when she has seizures so I don't think she has had unwitnessed seizures either while in my care because I have never found any pee in the house, on the carpet, on the bed linens or anywhere else, etc. that would indicate a loss of bladder control during a seizure.

Shortly after I adopted Katie, I was able to hunt down her records from her previous vet(s). She had a several owners before I did and I do not think they kept her in very good care. She of course had a lot of vaccines, Comfortis, crappy food, wormer, etc. Plus they were not good about giving her Phenobarbitol regularly and another dog in the household was stressing her out. From what I can recall off of the top of my head, the vet records indicated that she would have a seizure about once a month or so. I googled Comfortis side effects and it can cause seizures so that may be the case? Needless to say I do not put any chemicals on either of my Pugs or use any chemicals to clean my apartment nor do I vaccinate my Pugs anymore. My home environment is very calm and Henry my other Pug loves her and is a calm Pug.

When I first adopted her and took her to my vet, she said that Katie was not on a large dose of Pheno but a moderate one and if she remains seizure free for at least a year then we can work on reducing the dose. I think she is on 32.5 or something of Pheno twice a day.

 

[Lirpa]

Does Katie have only night time seizures or throughout the day time as well?

I re-read Katie's past vet records this morning and it appears that she has had them in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. Sometime she had multiple seizures in a day. The diazepam pulls her out of it each time though. One time the owner said that it was "possibly from stress from the other dog the day before". Other times the owner was away for the week and was not sure that Katie got her meds when she should have but when she returned she gave Katie meds for three days in a row but she still had a seizure. Fact or fiction who knows since the owner seemed sketchy and the home environment not so great, etc.

She was initially started out on 16 mg 1# PO BID in Jan 2008 but was still having break through seizures so they upped it to 16 mg #1.5 PO BID. They started her on 32.4 mg #1 PO BID on 3/11/11 but had a seizure on 3/16/11. Had a seizure on 7/30/12 due to no meds. No seizures since August 2012 when she went into the care of Pacific Pug Rescue which is where I got her from.

I think it is a mixture of congenital exacerbated by poor diet, chemicals, bad home situation, stress, not dosing regularly, etc.

She has some deformities like her tongue comes out to the side when she licks instead of straight out, her eyes are big and bulgy (more so than what is normal for the Pug breed). I would never tell her this of course :) but she is not a good example of good breeding or conformation. She also has a huge chunky soft palate that has been trimmed as much as it can be without affecting acid reflux but it still is huge. So her trachea collapses a lot and she coughs a lot. She also has a very flat head even for a Pug. I love her just the same, my little special needs Puggie!

I would like to reduce the dose of Phenobarbitol properly and slowly with the advice of my vet since it is so hard on the liver.

 

[Z...]

I re-read Katie's past vet records this morning and it appears that she has had them in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. Sometime she had multiple seizures in a day.

Too bad, there is evidence that only night time onset seizures can be fully controlled with melatonin.

The diazepam pulls her out of it each time though.

Its very important to control the seziures before they gain momentum especially if they are occurring frequently. If uncontrolled they can cause death. Diazepam is a good choice and suppositories are the most efficient way of administration.

I think it is a mixture of congenital exacerbated by poor diet, chemicals, bad home situation, stress, not dosing regularly, etc.

I agree , if proper diet didn't help then its a genetic issue.

She has some deformities like her tongue comes out to the side when she licks instead of straight out, her eyes are big and bulgy (more so than what is normal for the Pug breed). I would never tell her this of course :) but she is not a good example of good breeding or conformation. She also has a huge chunky soft palate that has been trimmed as much as it can be without affecting acid reflux but it still is huge. So her trachea collapses a lot and she coughs a lot. She also has a very flat head even for a Pug. I love her just the same, my little special needs Puggie!

lol I ve seen many pugs with same characteristics, tongue anomalies seem to be very common. This breed was created irresponsibly to begin with and the deconstruction continues :(

I would like to reduce the dose of Phenobarbitol properly and slowly with the advice of my vet since it is so hard on the liver.

Have a look at this page, there is a lot of useful info there
_http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/

 

[Z...]

I just read your previous post, it looks like it could be reaction to gluten if you are feeding properly. I would try lowering the dose of barbiturate slowly and see what happens.

 

[Lirpa]

I just read your previous post, it looks like it could be reaction to gluten if you are feeding properly. I would try lowering the dose of barbiturate slowly and see what happens.

I totally agree with the gluten thing because her foster parents advised to not feed her any treats with wheat in it. I gave her some organic treats that had a little barley in it that a neighbor had given us for the holidays and it made her coughing/phlegm worse.

So far she has not had any seizures since I have had her but I think she will always have to be on Phenobarbitol. I just do every bit that I can with diet and supplements in addition to her Phenobarbitol dosing of Phenobarbitol to ensure that the seizures do not return