Yugoslavia - What Really Happened

@Nević Nenad, you call for the storming of Kosova and explicitly say 'god help anyone that stands in our way' and I am the one that is messed up in the head??

The others, I get that I'm going very much against the narrative that's accepted here (and ofc I could be to whatever extent wrong) but the reactions here are extreme, as if I'm calling for the storming and killing of any of your nations. Maybe something to think about.
 
The others, I get that I'm going very much against the narrative that's accepted here
I don't think you "get" anything, nor are you trying. You are simply arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, being a shitposter. It's boring at this point. You belong on a Reddit forum.

(and ofc I could be to whatever extent wrong) but the reactions here are extreme, as if I'm calling for the storming and killing of any of your nations. Maybe something to think about.
Hilarious that you would say that considering it's exactly how you've behaved since the beginning and you've shown zero inclination to think about anything that's been said to you.
 
@Nević Nenad, you call for the storming of Kosova and explicitly say 'god help anyone that stands in our way' and I am the one that is messed up in the head??

The others, I get that I'm going very much against the narrative that's accepted here (and ofc I could be to whatever extent wrong) but the reactions here are extreme, as if I'm calling for the storming and killing of any of your nations. Maybe something to think about.
You got it! :cool2:

Risking to repeat myself here, but:

GO1BxghXwAArlVM.jpg
 
He did not now, did he Joe. Yeah, that's the issue here.. me not understanding written English.

Yeah, he did not, and yeah, you clearly can't understand English.

I'll explain, and that'll be the last time I respond to you, because there is clearly something very wrong with you.

Nević wrote a list of "takes" on different Balkan peoples, and SPECIFICALLY said at the end (although it was already clear)

"That's how average Serb sees the world around him"

So he was presenting stereotypical takes on the different Balkan nations and peoples FROM THE POV OF THE AVERAGE SERB.

He was not making a personal opinion.

Like I said, this forum is not for you, for many reasons, but the main one being that you appear to be brain damaged.
 
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Considering what Joe wrote:
I think anyone invested in this topic would do well to first and foremost understand the Yugoslav war(s) in the 1990s in the context of Western involvement. A person should find it much more difficult to engage in divisive "us and them" argumentation and finger-pointing on the matter when they fully and clearly understand that that was, and still is, the primary goal of the USA for the entire region.
Perspectives on what happened in Yugoslavia in the period of the fracturing, may in part be based on what happened in the years after the break-up and in particular the relations with NATO and the EU. I looked up the different areas and countries of the former Yugoslavia, concerning their relations with NATO.

NATO in the Former Yugoslavia and Albania
Albania, NATO since 2009 See Albania-NATO relations
Bosnia and Herzegovina, "was invited by NATO to join the Membership Action Plan (MAP) in April 2010.[7]" (Wiki for Member states of NATO) See also: Bosnia and Herzegovina–NATO relations
Croatia, NATO since 2009 See Croatia–NATO relations
Kosovo (Wiki, the area is not recognized by Serbia.), Regarding NATO, see for instance, the Wiki for Kosovo Force, which explains:
The Kosovo Force (KFOR) is a NATO-led international peacekeeping force in Kosovo.[2] Its operations are gradually reducing until Kosovo's Security Force, established in 2009, becomes self-sufficient.[3]

KFOR entered Kosovo on 12 June 1999,[4] one day after the United Nations Security Council adopted the UNSC Resolution 1244. At the time, Kosovo was facing a grave humanitarian crisis, with military forces from Yugoslavia in action against the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) in daily engagements. Nearly one million people had fled Kosovo as refugees by that time, and many permanently did not return.[3]

KFOR is gradually transferring responsibilities to the Kosovo Police and other local authorities. Currently, 28 states contribute to the KFOR, with a combined strength of approximately 3,800 military personnel.[5]

The mission was initially called Operation Joint Guardian. In 2004, the codename for the mission was changed to Operation Joint Enterprise.
North Macedonia, NATO, 2020 North Macedonia–NATO relations
Montenegro, NATO, 2017 Montenegro–NATO relations
Serbia, - See Serbia–NATO relations
Slovenia, NATO since 2004 and thus the first country to join. There is no Wiki, but there is a report by a student, Noah Veltman. See SLOVENIA AND NATO
The explanation for "student" is on the Home page which begins:
This website is the result of a course on European integration at the Overseas Studies Program of Stanford in Berlin.
The authors of the different contributions are students of the European Union class.
In the article about Slovenia and NATO, the author writes that Slovenia 'can, in effect, serve as a “Gateway to the Balkans,”' and "By extending NATO’s borders to the southeast, it further extends its ability to operate “out of area” in nearby regions." Fortunately for NATO, Slovenia was the first country to join.

About NATO in Europe, there are numerous articles on SOTT and the Forum. Here is yet another like the following opinion piece by Grey Anderson and Thomas Meaney from July 11, 2023: NATO Isn’t What It Says It Is, published in the New York Times. It is behind a paywall, but accessible here from Indian Strategic Studies. Here are a few paragraphs:

[...]
But NATO, from its origins, was never primarily concerned with aggregating military power. Fielding 100 divisions at its Cold War height, a small fraction of Warsaw Pact manpower, the organization could not be counted on to repel a Soviet invasion and even the continent’s nuclear weapons were under Washington’s control. Rather, it set out to bind Western Europe to a far vaster project of a U.S.-led world order, in which American protection served as a lever to obtain concessions on other issues, like trade and monetary policy. In that mission, it has proved remarkably successful.

Many observers expected NATO to close shop after the collapse of its Cold War rival. But in the decade after 1989, the organization truly came into its own. NATO acted as a ratings agency for the European Union in Eastern Europe, declaring countries secure for development and investment. The organization pushed would-be partners to adhere to a liberal, pro-market creed, according to which — as President Bill Clinton’s national security adviser put it — “the pursuit of democratic institutions, the expansion of free markets” and “the promotion of collective security” marched in lock step. European military professionals and reform-minded elites formed a willing constituency, their campaigns boosted by NATO’s information apparatus.

When European populations proved too stubborn, or undesirably swayed by socialist or nationalist sentiments, Atlantic integration proceeded all the same. The Czech Republic was a telling case. Faced with a likely “no” vote in a referendum on joining the alliance in 1997, the secretary general and top NATO officials saw to it that the government in Prague simply dispense with the exercise; the country joined two years later. The new century brought more of the same, with an appropriate shift in emphasis. Coinciding with the global war on terrorism, the “big bang” expansion of 2004 — in which seven countries acceded — saw counterterrorism supersede democracy and human rights in alliance rhetoric. Stress on the need for liberalization and public sector reforms remained a constant.

[...]

Whatever the levels of expenditure, it is remarkable how little military capability Europeans get for the outlays involved. Lack of coordination, as much as penny-pinching, hamstrings Europe’s ability to ensure its own security. By forbidding duplication of existing capabilities and prodding allies to accept niche roles, NATO has stymied the emergence of any semiautonomous European force capable of independent action. As for defense procurement, common standards for interoperability, coupled with the sheer size of the U.S. military-industrial sector and bureaucratic impediments in Brussels, favor American firms at the expense of their European competitors. The alliance, paradoxically, appears to have weakened allies’ ability to defend themselves.

Yet the paradox is only superficial. In fact, NATO is working exactly as it was designed by postwar U.S. planners, drawing Europe into a dependency on American power that reduces its room for maneuver. Far from a costly charity program, NATO secures American influence in Europe on the cheap. U.S. contributions to NATO and other security assistance programs in Europe account for a tiny fraction of the Pentagon’s annual budget — less than 6 percent by a recent estimate. And the war has only strengthened America’s hand. Before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, roughly half of European military spending went to American manufacturers. Surging demand has exacerbated this tendency as buyers rush to acquire tanks, combat aircraft and other weapons systems, locking into costly, multiyear contracts. Europe may be remilitarizing, but America is reaping the rewards.
[...]
One of the authors, Grey Anderson, was interviewed by Democracy Now, What Is the Point of NATO? Historian Grey Anderson on How U.S. Has Used Alliance to Strengthen Power and a clip appeared in a Tweet:
which is part of an interview transcribed in

When the article in NYT read: "NATO acted as a ratings agency for the European Union in Eastern Europe, declaring countries secure for development and investment." it is also of interest to learn about the development of the relationship with the The European Union
The Wiki for Member state of the European Union (Wiki) says that Croatia, joined the EU on 1 July 2013, while Slovenia joined the EU 1 May, 2004. That is both after they had joined NATO. Since then no other country has joined, though several have joined NATO, but negotiations are underway. There was an article from Reuters, written in 2022, but it is probably still relevant. Notice the comments from the US and President Biden, keeping in mind what was said about the role of NATO for the US in the article quoted earlier:

Albania, North Macedonia finally start EU membership talks

By Robin Emmott and Marine Strauss
July 19, 20224:28 PM GMT+2Updated 2 years ago

BRUSSELS, July 19 (Reuters) - Albania and North Macedonia began membership talks with the European Union on Tuesday, overcoming a series of obstacles thrown up by EU governments despite an original promise to begin negotiations in mid-2018.

The start of formal negotiations to allow the two Balkan countries to eventually join the world's largest trading bloc are a breakthrough but have revealed the EU's lack of appetite for further enlargement, particularly in northern Europe.

"You have shown strategic patience, in abundance," European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen told the leaders of Albania and North Macedonia alongside the Czech prime minister, whose country holds the six-month presidency of the EU.

U.S. President Joe Biden welcomed the start of talks, saying Russia's invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24 made an integrated Europe more important than ever.

"A democratic, secure, and prosperous Western Balkans remains essential to this vision," Biden said in a statement, restating U.S. policy "for a Europe whole, free, and at peace."


"The steps that the EU, Albania, and North Macedonia have taken in recent days should inspire all EU aspirants in the region to increase their commitment to strengthening their democracies," he added.

The United States, which in March 1999 led a NATO bombing campaign to protect Kosovo's ethnic Albanians from Serbian forces, has long promoted EU integration in the Balkans.

Despite a recommendation by the EU's Executive Commission for the two countries to start talks four years ago, first the German and Dutch parliaments, then France's president and then Bulgaria's government each took their turn to hold up the process with different demands of the two hopefuls.

"The European future is within your reach. I wish you the swiftest possible path," Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala said.
Although already both NATO members, Albania and North Macedonia were victims of a political backlash in member states against migration from outside the bloc.

That reached a low point in September last year, when the 27 EU governments could not agree to uphold a guarantee of future membership to the six Balkan countries once promised a place in the club.

Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania and North Macedonia have all been promised a place in the EU, once they fulfill tough economic, political, military, social and legal reforms.

While that guarantee has now been reinstated, Bulgaria blocked any further progress until North Macedonia, which had already changed its name to satisfy Greece, agreed to amend the constitution to recognise a Bulgarian minority.

On July 16, lawmakers in North Macedonia passed a French-brokered deal to resolve the dispute so that Sofia could lift its veto on enlargement.

"We know this is not the beginning of the end, this is just the end of the beginning," said Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama, whose country's progress was tied by the EU to North Macedonia.

EU membership talks and reforms could still take years, EU officials said.

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Reporting by Robin Emmott and Marine Strauss; Additional reporting by Susan Heavey in Washington; Editing by Clarence Fernandez and Jonathan Oatis
There are these Wikis for the various countries and their relations with the European Union.
Accession of Albania to the European Union
Accession of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the European Union
Accession of Kosovo to the European Union
Accession of Montenegro to the European Union
Accession of North Macedonia to the European Union
Accession of Serbia to the European Union

This background of the EU and NATO relations is part of what influences people in the different Balkan states when they now many years later try to interpret What Really Happened to Yugoslavia. One aspect is that it is not realistic to expect any interest from either NATO or the EU to promote a narrative that does not place them in an auspicious light.
 
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