Zoroastrianism a Paleolithic Religion, Origin of Monotheism, Salvation Theology?
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
Since Laura is now interested in following this Zoroastrianism research, I thought I should mention one interesting thing. Several years ago, one person recommended to me that I should read a book 'God Speaks' by Meher Baba. I started reading it and quickly realized that it's the worst piece of literature I saw in my life, to say the least.
But one thing that made me very curious was his description of evolution of the soul, which sounds very similar to the description that Laura got from C's, except that he was not describing it in hyperdimensional terms. I wondered about that and came to the conclusion that he most probably got it from somebody else. Supposedly, he had several teachers which you can find on Wikipedia. But I never investigated that further because I was too busy reading other things.
Well, in the meantime, somebody made an article on Wikipedia, so you can see what I'm talking about. There is even a graphical presentation of his theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involution_(Meher_Baba)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Speaks#Involution
But one thing that made me very curious was his description of evolution of the soul, which sounds very similar to the description that Laura got from C's, except that he was not describing it in hyperdimensional terms. I wondered about that and came to the conclusion that he most probably got it from somebody else. Supposedly, he had several teachers which you can find on Wikipedia. But I never investigated that further because I was too busy reading other things.
Well, in the meantime, somebody made an article on Wikipedia, so you can see what I'm talking about. There is even a graphical presentation of his theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involution_(Meher_Baba)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Speaks#Involution
Mary Settegast presents a case for putting the time of Zarathustra around 6300BC, which she says was the time of the agricultural revolution. Within a short period of time a vast region turned towards sedentary life and that of farming. She says that Zarathustra got rid of the warrior class and that to worship God was to cultivate the land and make it fruitful. The role of the priests/followers of Zarathustra was to bring knowledge about plant breeding, animal husbandry, irrigation techniques etc.
It sounds as if he was a reformer like Paul after him, who was trying to right the wrongs and put the human cosmic connection in focus.
According to Settegast then some of the problems of dating Zarathustra might have arisen due to it also becoming a title like a high priest (p. 214). If that was the case, then Pythagoras might well have been taught by a person going by the name/title Zarathustra, as was mentioned earlier in the thread without it being the founder of the religion.
Below a few excerpt from Plato, Prehistorian:
The following sentence made me think of Paul and the book “Paul’s necessary sin”:
It is likely that Zarathustra had an awakening experience like Paul and thought of ways to pass it on so that others would also start to gain this awakening of consciousness that then would guide them. Creating an active relationship with God via being a good steward of the land and making it fruitful was perhaps his way towards awakening people to this inner guiding feeling and to develop virtues. As I read the word “righteousness” in the sentence above, I thought of Timothy Ashworth and translation. Was something lost in the translation from the original language into English due to the lack of words in the English language regarding such words as righteousness?
As one scholar saw it, Zarathustra “abolished the worship of Time or Fate,” concentrating instead of man’s active participation in the struggle between the creative and destructive spirits. (p.216)
This ties up with the idea from the C’s that the struggle is through us, that we are not separate from this but that it is played out in us.
Zarathustra did not believe in cyclical time but in linear time (p.222). Perhaps a reaction to the times he was living in.
Settegast does a great job in her two books on the subject and documenting all the movements and and changes in the region. She would have benefitted from some insight into catastrophism and cometary impacts, where Sweetman does a better job regarding the subject. That knowledge was not that known or accepted at the time when she wrote the first book.
It sounds as if he was a reformer like Paul after him, who was trying to right the wrongs and put the human cosmic connection in focus.
According to Settegast then some of the problems of dating Zarathustra might have arisen due to it also becoming a title like a high priest (p. 214). If that was the case, then Pythagoras might well have been taught by a person going by the name/title Zarathustra, as was mentioned earlier in the thread without it being the founder of the religion.
Below a few excerpt from Plato, Prehistorian:
The following sentence made me think of Paul and the book “Paul’s necessary sin”:
It is likely that Zarathustra had an awakening experience like Paul and thought of ways to pass it on so that others would also start to gain this awakening of consciousness that then would guide them. Creating an active relationship with God via being a good steward of the land and making it fruitful was perhaps his way towards awakening people to this inner guiding feeling and to develop virtues. As I read the word “righteousness” in the sentence above, I thought of Timothy Ashworth and translation. Was something lost in the translation from the original language into English due to the lack of words in the English language regarding such words as righteousness?
As one scholar saw it, Zarathustra “abolished the worship of Time or Fate,” concentrating instead of man’s active participation in the struggle between the creative and destructive spirits. (p.216)
This ties up with the idea from the C’s that the struggle is through us, that we are not separate from this but that it is played out in us.
Zarathustra did not believe in cyclical time but in linear time (p.222). Perhaps a reaction to the times he was living in.
Settegast does a great job in her two books on the subject and documenting all the movements and and changes in the region. She would have benefitted from some insight into catastrophism and cometary impacts, where Sweetman does a better job regarding the subject. That knowledge was not that known or accepted at the time when she wrote the first book.
We got to delve into Zoroaster's times, teachings and great influence in the latest MindMatters show, with a follow-up and fleshing out of this subject in a part 2 show coming next week.
And we'd like to thank you all for tuning in as the MindMatters YT channel continues to grow, bit by bit, with all the great support we've been receiving from you!
MindMatters: Zoroastrianism: The Ancient System of Values That Sought to Change The World, And Did
And we'd like to thank you all for tuning in as the MindMatters YT channel continues to grow, bit by bit, with all the great support we've been receiving from you!
MindMatters: Zoroastrianism: The Ancient System of Values That Sought to Change The World, And Did
Here's the part 2 show on Zoroastrianism. We hope ya'll enjoy it!
MindMatters: Zarathustra Returns! What We Can Learn From The Persian Prophet
MindMatters: Zarathustra Returns! What We Can Learn From The Persian Prophet
I really enjoyed the presentation.
Thank you very much. Having read IN SEARCH OF ZARATHUSTRA and WHEN ZARATHUSTRA SPOKE. your inclusion of other books on the prophet really opened up and fleshed out my understanding. It becomes so obvious. that certain essential truths have, seemingly, always existed. These truths,although certainly always present, became bogged down and hidden under dogma and plain human ignorance.
Really looking forward to your show on ST. PAUL. I have read PAUL'S NECESSARY SIN. I've read it on Kindle so struggled with that format. I'm going to buy the book as I feel much more comfortable with a book in my hand.
I also found Ashworth's comparisions with 2 other translators a bit too much information for me and really distracted me and just seemed to break up the flow. No one else has complained of this so just shows my failings as a reader. When I get the book I'm going to miss these sections out and stick to his reasonings. which are so revealing.
Thank you very much. Having read IN SEARCH OF ZARATHUSTRA and WHEN ZARATHUSTRA SPOKE. your inclusion of other books on the prophet really opened up and fleshed out my understanding. It becomes so obvious. that certain essential truths have, seemingly, always existed. These truths,although certainly always present, became bogged down and hidden under dogma and plain human ignorance.
Really looking forward to your show on ST. PAUL. I have read PAUL'S NECESSARY SIN. I've read it on Kindle so struggled with that format. I'm going to buy the book as I feel much more comfortable with a book in my hand.
I also found Ashworth's comparisions with 2 other translators a bit too much information for me and really distracted me and just seemed to break up the flow. No one else has complained of this so just shows my failings as a reader. When I get the book I'm going to miss these sections out and stick to his reasonings. which are so revealing.
heartmosiya
Padawan Learner
Hi, I have found this information interesting and I am propelled to spend some valuable months in trying to understand. Thank you
Hi,
I just found a book "The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathushtra" by Jatindra Mohan Chatterji. This book may give link between Veda and Avesta or Zend Avesta. The book link is given below
The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathushtra
I just found a book "The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathushtra" by Jatindra Mohan Chatterji. This book may give link between Veda and Avesta or Zend Avesta. The book link is given below
The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathushtra
heartmosiya
Padawan Learner
Thanks a lot, for a helping handHi,
I just found a book "The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathushtra" by Jatindra Mohan Chatterji. This book may give link between Veda and Avesta or Zend Avesta. The book link is given below
The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathushtra
Anytime! Heartmosiya!
While reading From Paul to Mark I was intrigued by a footnote Laura entered with regard to the particular Essene practices of covering oneself when relieving oneself outside and burying one's waste so that it does "not affront the divine rays of light" (pg 43):
I became intrigued by this topic so I ended up looking for more information in the Book of Enoch itself and a book on the Zend Avesta, searching specifically for the word "light" and it came up with some pretty interesting passages.
BOOK OF ENOCH
So light in Enoch seems associated strongly with a positive bestowal from cosmic forces. "Light of everlasting life," "light of rectitude." And then there is the celestial hierarchy replete with names and functions. It's really odd, how we as westerners have been raised with this intuitive understanding of the light being the good, truth, knowledge, beauty, et cetera. But we never consider where that idea comes from. There's some justification for thinking it's innate, when we associate the sun with seeing, the fire with warmth and safety and seeing in the dark, and so on. There's also a lot of other apocalyptic elements the quotes doesn't capture, like a void or pit where 7 stars which broke God's commands have been bound in punishment. Seems like there's two types of lights: light and fire, and they are one at the throne. Further out, the good receive the beneficent light while the evil suffer in fire.
Some of the more orthodox or traditional takes on the Fire of Pentecost and the Fires of Hell is that they really have the same source ultimately, and it's the composition of our own soul that determines how we perceive it. I remember an earlier Mind Matters episode on Stoic metaphysics talking about how everlasting fire was the primal element out of which (in descending order) air, water, and earth were composed. In alchemical texts earth was equated with the senses, water with emotion, air with thought, and fire with creativity. So telling a carnal person they were going to hell wasn't seen as some punishment but more as an observation that their own psychic world was composed of baser elements, which would be dissolved rather painfully when the wheel turned and the universe began to dissolve back into primordial fire again.
Anyway, now onto some quotes I found in a book on the Zend Avesta Part I The Vendidad, Sacred Books of the East Volume 4:
The Commentary has here the following Zend quotation : ' All uncreated light shines from above; all the created lights shine from below.'
On Mithra/Mitra:
On battles between "weather gods" or STS vs STO:
These passages above gave me goosebumps. Good and evil battling over the "light of sovereignty" within each human soul. With the second bolded passage one cannot help thinking of the female energy consorting with the 4D STS, and that this feminine energy is construed as a light/fire in itself is all the more interesting. Makes me wonder if this was the reason behind all those redheads painted by the Preraphaelites.
Wikipedia also had some clarifying things to say about Kvaranah:
I became intrigued by this topic so I ended up looking for more information in the Book of Enoch itself and a book on the Zend Avesta, searching specifically for the word "light" and it came up with some pretty interesting passages.
BOOK OF ENOCH
So light in Enoch seems associated strongly with a positive bestowal from cosmic forces. "Light of everlasting life," "light of rectitude." And then there is the celestial hierarchy replete with names and functions. It's really odd, how we as westerners have been raised with this intuitive understanding of the light being the good, truth, knowledge, beauty, et cetera. But we never consider where that idea comes from. There's some justification for thinking it's innate, when we associate the sun with seeing, the fire with warmth and safety and seeing in the dark, and so on. There's also a lot of other apocalyptic elements the quotes doesn't capture, like a void or pit where 7 stars which broke God's commands have been bound in punishment. Seems like there's two types of lights: light and fire, and they are one at the throne. Further out, the good receive the beneficent light while the evil suffer in fire.
Some of the more orthodox or traditional takes on the Fire of Pentecost and the Fires of Hell is that they really have the same source ultimately, and it's the composition of our own soul that determines how we perceive it. I remember an earlier Mind Matters episode on Stoic metaphysics talking about how everlasting fire was the primal element out of which (in descending order) air, water, and earth were composed. In alchemical texts earth was equated with the senses, water with emotion, air with thought, and fire with creativity. So telling a carnal person they were going to hell wasn't seen as some punishment but more as an observation that their own psychic world was composed of baser elements, which would be dissolved rather painfully when the wheel turned and the universe began to dissolve back into primordial fire again.
Anyway, now onto some quotes I found in a book on the Zend Avesta Part I The Vendidad, Sacred Books of the East Volume 4:
The Commentary has here the following Zend quotation : ' All uncreated light shines from above; all the created lights shine from below.'
On Mithra/Mitra:
So Mithra to the Persians was a personification of the beneficent light or faces of God. The light as friendly to man. Compare that to the beneficient lights in Enoch bestowing wisdom and immortality and the like. More interesting was the idea of this personification being at one point an equal to Ahura Mazda. This reminds me in some ways of the myth of Castor and Pollox in Greek myth. Two twins were half brothers, one being a demigod son of Zeus and the other of a Spartan king. When the mortal Castor eventually died, the demigod Pollox prayed to Zeus to bring him to Olympus. In exchange for granting this wish Pollox had to give up half his immortality, and so like Persephone the brothers spent half the year in heaven on mount Olympus and the other half in the Elysian fields of the underworld. I bring this up because others before have commented on its similarity to the story of Jesus descending into Hell as a ransom for the souls of the human race.
On battles between "weather gods" or STS vs STO:
What is this hvareno? Modern translation is Kvaranah. From the Zend Avesta:
These passages above gave me goosebumps. Good and evil battling over the "light of sovereignty" within each human soul. With the second bolded passage one cannot help thinking of the female energy consorting with the 4D STS, and that this feminine energy is construed as a light/fire in itself is all the more interesting. Makes me wonder if this was the reason behind all those redheads painted by the Preraphaelites.
Wikipedia also had some clarifying things to say about Kvaranah:
So light in the Zoroastrian tradition in some context also denotes a capacity for a particular type of embodiment or manifestation in the world, perhaps in some sort of archetypal fashion. In Kvaranah, having the same root as shine, glory, and so on, is also quite interesting.
After some comments about Zoroastrianism being potentially perverted early on it spurned in me the memory of Hermes Tismegistus in the Cassiopaean transcrips:
The timeline and location for the activities of Hermes seems to coincide with what could be construed as corruptions of Zarathustra’s original message. Hermes is given great reverence in alchemical literature and in secret societies, but was not an original founder. Perhaps he is elevated on a pedistal for his role in corrupting Zoroastrian religion and society in the ancient world?
The original 2016 C session that spurred this thread had some the following exchanges:
From what I remember in reading what I had of Zoroastrianism, Zurvanism was seen as a heretical or blasphemous belief. It’s ironic that Zarathustra sought to repair Zurvanism of its corruptions but instead became the purported head of a faith that totally consumed and disregarded it. If we go with he notion that the spread of Zoroastrianism was either cause of various Neolithic “innovations,” what exactly did Zoroaster succeed in preserving of Zurvanism? Definitely not the parts that were instrumental in having a healthy diet and civic relations. Agriculture was a horrid influence as Lieree Keith had written.
I remember from the book Coming Home to the Pleistocene the notion that pastoral peoples regularly invaded and conquered agricultural peoples. Even in the early modern era you had European aristocrats still carrying on the vestiges of such a life in fox hunting, glorifying horseback rides and martial discipline (as high-ranking officers of course) and eating lots of meat in their diets compared to the agricultural peasants. This culminates in the British fights against the Zulu, where 6’1 Zulu warriors who ate lots of meat and dairy their whole lives face off against 5’8 British officers who eat meat almost every day of their lives growing up, commanding herds of common soldiers who were all 5’4 and just eating grains and suffering all sorts of evidenced malnourishment even in their physical appearance and bone structure. No wonder the Zulu fought as hard as they did, seeing what they did with their disposable workforce class.
The timeline and location for the activities of Hermes seems to coincide with what could be construed as corruptions of Zarathustra’s original message. Hermes is given great reverence in alchemical literature and in secret societies, but was not an original founder. Perhaps he is elevated on a pedistal for his role in corrupting Zoroastrian religion and society in the ancient world?
The original 2016 C session that spurred this thread had some the following exchanges:
From what I remember in reading what I had of Zoroastrianism, Zurvanism was seen as a heretical or blasphemous belief. It’s ironic that Zarathustra sought to repair Zurvanism of its corruptions but instead became the purported head of a faith that totally consumed and disregarded it. If we go with he notion that the spread of Zoroastrianism was either cause of various Neolithic “innovations,” what exactly did Zoroaster succeed in preserving of Zurvanism? Definitely not the parts that were instrumental in having a healthy diet and civic relations. Agriculture was a horrid influence as Lieree Keith had written.
I remember from the book Coming Home to the Pleistocene the notion that pastoral peoples regularly invaded and conquered agricultural peoples. Even in the early modern era you had European aristocrats still carrying on the vestiges of such a life in fox hunting, glorifying horseback rides and martial discipline (as high-ranking officers of course) and eating lots of meat in their diets compared to the agricultural peasants. This culminates in the British fights against the Zulu, where 6’1 Zulu warriors who ate lots of meat and dairy their whole lives face off against 5’8 British officers who eat meat almost every day of their lives growing up, commanding herds of common soldiers who were all 5’4 and just eating grains and suffering all sorts of evidenced malnourishment even in their physical appearance and bone structure. No wonder the Zulu fought as hard as they did, seeing what they did with their disposable workforce class.
I finished reading Zoroastrianism by John W. Waterhouse, and am about half way through Philosophy Before the Greeks by Marc Van De Mieroop.
The purpose of the book Zoroastrianism seemed to be to try and address the question of how much Judaism influenced Zoroastrianism. This is handled mostly in the last chapter of the book “Developments and Contacts,” where he laid out his own reasons for believing Judaism may have received influence during the “exilic period” where the Jews were purported to be in exile. He concludes there was a “mutual indebtedness” between the two religions, including beliefs about a Messiah, Monotheism, and so on. Given Mary Setagast’s views on the genuine antiquity of Zoroastrianism (even the reformed versions) it seems much more plausible that Zoroastrian heavily influenced Judaism but not vice versa.
What stands out is that Cyrus the Great is one of the few “pagan” individuals to be deemed honored and blessed in the Old Testament for allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple. It definitely seems like some kind of homage was paid by this saying, “yeah you’re pretty alright but you were only doing it out of respect for our God and not yours.”
Another tie-in with Judaism/Christianity is of course also the story of the Magi (which were a priestly caste associated with Zurvanism/Zoroastrianism, which tended to be fatalistic and heavily involved in astrology and divination). In the book of Matthew, three magi came from the east and bore gifts to the messiah, after reading the stars and concluding a great king was to be born. What stuck out for me was that the book of Matthew was for a Jewish audience, and Levitical law explicitly condemned astrology.
What type of rhetorical or narrative work was the tie-in with the Magi doing in this situation?
One possible reason for the exclusion of astrology from the Torah, I think, could be from “lessons learned” from Babylon, where astrology and diviniation was a major obsession of the priestly class, but also scribes in general as well as lay people (by which I mean those not formally employed or involved in priestly activities or administration). Someone could pay an individual to read the omens of an animal you were slaughtering. It was like going to the butcher and the newspaper stand at the same time. A part of me wonders if the move away from astrology in the compilation of the Torah was an attempt to reel back the ability of the laypeople to interact with the divine, and instead relegate that prerogative of divine communication to the rabbis, through kabbalah and other script-based magical practices. Just a hypothesis.
What’s also of note was Magi belief that the body becomes physically resurrected after their bodies were given up to be eaten by birds (practicing sky burials instead of burial in the earth or by fire). I thought this was an interesting tie-in with the Matthew/Peter theology, which also necessitated a belief in a physical resurrection.
On the whole this book was a great crash-course in Zoroastrian beliefs. It ended up making me a lot more curious about Zoroastrianism, Zurvanism, and the Magi.
I looked up the Magi on Wikipedia (just as a starting point) and it seemed that some did not have high opinions of them.
Another interesting story involving the Magi surrounds the ascension of Darius I to the Persian throne. The short version is the Persian King Cambyses II died on campaign in Egypt and his brother Bardiya ascended the throne. Darius, Cambyses II’s sword bearer, returns from campaign and with a cadre of others accuses Bardiya of in fact being a Magi named Gautama who is impersonating Bardiya (who, if we are to believe Darius, was secretly slain by Cambyses II (
) after dreaming of his brother supplanting him). Darius and others then slay the king in a coup d’etat and he becomes king.
Most scholars today can see this as clearly Machiavellian maneuvering by Darius, but it is interesting to see how his wanton smear of the priestly class in charge of providing omens and portents for him just seemed to be taken in stride.
Reading history can be quite a rabbit hole.
The purpose of the book Zoroastrianism seemed to be to try and address the question of how much Judaism influenced Zoroastrianism. This is handled mostly in the last chapter of the book “Developments and Contacts,” where he laid out his own reasons for believing Judaism may have received influence during the “exilic period” where the Jews were purported to be in exile. He concludes there was a “mutual indebtedness” between the two religions, including beliefs about a Messiah, Monotheism, and so on. Given Mary Setagast’s views on the genuine antiquity of Zoroastrianism (even the reformed versions) it seems much more plausible that Zoroastrian heavily influenced Judaism but not vice versa.
What stands out is that Cyrus the Great is one of the few “pagan” individuals to be deemed honored and blessed in the Old Testament for allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple. It definitely seems like some kind of homage was paid by this saying, “yeah you’re pretty alright but you were only doing it out of respect for our God and not yours.”
Another tie-in with Judaism/Christianity is of course also the story of the Magi (which were a priestly caste associated with Zurvanism/Zoroastrianism, which tended to be fatalistic and heavily involved in astrology and divination). In the book of Matthew, three magi came from the east and bore gifts to the messiah, after reading the stars and concluding a great king was to be born. What stuck out for me was that the book of Matthew was for a Jewish audience, and Levitical law explicitly condemned astrology.
What type of rhetorical or narrative work was the tie-in with the Magi doing in this situation?
One possible reason for the exclusion of astrology from the Torah, I think, could be from “lessons learned” from Babylon, where astrology and diviniation was a major obsession of the priestly class, but also scribes in general as well as lay people (by which I mean those not formally employed or involved in priestly activities or administration). Someone could pay an individual to read the omens of an animal you were slaughtering. It was like going to the butcher and the newspaper stand at the same time. A part of me wonders if the move away from astrology in the compilation of the Torah was an attempt to reel back the ability of the laypeople to interact with the divine, and instead relegate that prerogative of divine communication to the rabbis, through kabbalah and other script-based magical practices. Just a hypothesis.
What’s also of note was Magi belief that the body becomes physically resurrected after their bodies were given up to be eaten by birds (practicing sky burials instead of burial in the earth or by fire). I thought this was an interesting tie-in with the Matthew/Peter theology, which also necessitated a belief in a physical resurrection.
On the whole this book was a great crash-course in Zoroastrian beliefs. It ended up making me a lot more curious about Zoroastrianism, Zurvanism, and the Magi.
I looked up the Magi on Wikipedia (just as a starting point) and it seemed that some did not have high opinions of them.
Another interesting story involving the Magi surrounds the ascension of Darius I to the Persian throne. The short version is the Persian King Cambyses II died on campaign in Egypt and his brother Bardiya ascended the throne. Darius, Cambyses II’s sword bearer, returns from campaign and with a cadre of others accuses Bardiya of in fact being a Magi named Gautama who is impersonating Bardiya (who, if we are to believe Darius, was secretly slain by Cambyses II (
) after dreaming of his brother supplanting him). Darius and others then slay the king in a coup d’etat and he becomes king.Most scholars today can see this as clearly Machiavellian maneuvering by Darius, but it is interesting to see how his wanton smear of the priestly class in charge of providing omens and portents for him just seemed to be taken in stride.
Reading history can be quite a rabbit hole.
