Zoroastrianism a Paleolithic Religion, Origin of Monotheism, Salvation Theology?

Voyageur

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MK Scarlett said:
I hope this was not too boring as I found the reading of it very interesting. A lot fit with what C's and Laura's researchs have to say about our World. :)
Indeed no, thanks for posting.

This little paragraph below made me thing of the C's reference to the bolded:


About the Zarathousthra's mission, the author explains that for Zarathousthra, humans, plants and animals, minerals and soil, all of them have a soul. They all can suffer or be happy, because they all were created by the Ahura Mazda's thought.
C's (January 27 1996 said:
Q: (L) How do you spend your 'time?'

A: Teaching, sharing, assisting.

Q: (L) What do you do for fun?

A: That is fun!

Q: (PZ) With each other?

A: No.

Q: (PZ) With who?

A: Densities 1,2,3,4,5.
 

Laura

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MK Scarlett said:
I hope this was not too boring as I found the reading of it very interesting. A lot fit with what C's and Laura's researchs have to say about our World. :)
It was very interesting, thank you.

One thing that caught my eye was the mention of Mozart's "The Magic Flute"

7 Nov 1998 said:
Q: (A) What about 'zuber' and this 'bezu' mentioned in this
book, The Horse of God? Was it an anagram?
A: Oh now, it may just have been.
Q: (L) Well, it freaked ME out, coming the next day after
last week's session... with the mention of 'chevin' and
the funny numbers representing the Golden ratio and all
that... it was amazing, even if the woman does not have a
clue of what she is talking about!
A: Learning is such fun. Ludwig put words to his music.
Q: (L) Yes... the poetry of Wolfgang Schiller. His Ode to
Joy.
A: What does Schiller, or Schoeller mean?
Q: Now that you brought this up! This is a VERY strange
thing because this guy wrote a bunch of cosmic poems to
someone named Laura, and they were about universes and
gravity and the music of the spheres, and reincarnation,
time and time warps, a bunch of funny stuff. He even
wrote one that begins: 'I was in Arcadia born...' He hung
out with Von Eckartshausen and I think he was an
alchemist...
A: Was he zuber?
Q: (A) Zauber, in German, means 'magic.' (L) Close enough!
(A) Does this mean he was a magician?
A: Other close one... Zeuber?
25 May 1996 said:
Q: (L) Well, okay. We have several issues just now...
A: Flute.
Q: (L) What does that mean?
A: You have one.
Q: (L) I don't have a flute. Tell me about the flute.
A: Ponder.
Q: (L) Flute as in playing a tune? Another clue?
A: No.
Q: (L) And you want me to stop and ponder this right now?
Well, you play music on a flute. Usually you play happy
music on a flute.
A: Not point. On or not.
Q: (L) You guys are being really obscure tonight. Is flute
significant in some way?
A: Maybe.
Q: (L) Is there another word or two you can give me for a
clue? A: D.
Q: (L) Fluted?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Does 'fluted' have anything to do with 'grooving?'
A: Columns.
Q: (L) What columns are we talking about?
A: Ionic.
Q: (L) Why are we talking about Ionic fluted columns?
A: Because they are a link to previous direct contact between
humans and density 4 STO!
 

MK Scarlett

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
voyageur said:
MK Scarlett said:
I hope this was not too boring as I found the reading of it very interesting. A lot fit with what C's and Laura's researchs have to say about our World. :)
Indeed no, thanks for posting.

This little paragraph below made me thing of the C's reference to the bolded:

About the Zarathousthra's mission, the author explains that for Zarathousthra, humans, plants and animals, minerals and soil, all of them have a soul. They all can suffer or be happy, because they all were created by the Ahura Mazda's thought.
C's (January 27 1996 said:
Q: (L) How do you spend your 'time?'

A: Teaching, sharing, assisting.

Q: (L) What do you do for fun?

A: That is fun!

Q: (PZ) With each other?

A: No.

Q: (PZ) With who?

A: Densities 1,2,3,4,5.
I did not remember the above you shared, thanks for that voyageur. :)
And now, I am wondering in which Volume of the Wave this extract comes from, if it is, but now, I am almost sure that I've already read it and it only can comes from The Wave as I do not read transcriptions alone. Any clue? It would be great to re-read it in its context.

Laura said:
MK Scarlett said:
I hope this was not too boring as I found the reading of it very interesting. A lot fit with what C's and Laura's researchs have to say about our World. :)
It was very interesting, thank you.

One thing that caught my eye was the mention of Mozart's "The Magic Flute"

7 Nov 1998 said:
Q: (A) What about 'zuber' and this 'bezu' mentioned in this
book, The Horse of God? Was it an anagram?
A: Oh now, it may just have been.
Q: (L) Well, it freaked ME out, coming the next day after
last week's session... with the mention of 'chevin' and
the funny numbers representing the Golden ratio and all
that... it was amazing, even if the woman does not have a
clue of what she is talking about!
A: Learning is such fun. Ludwig put words to his music.
Q: (L) Yes... the poetry of Wolfgang Schiller. His Ode to
Joy.
A: What does Schiller, or Schoeller mean?
Q: Now that you brought this up! This is a VERY strange
thing because this guy wrote a bunch of cosmic poems to
someone named Laura, and they were about universes and
gravity and the music of the spheres, and reincarnation,
time and time warps, a bunch of funny stuff. He even
wrote one that begins: 'I was in Arcadia born...' He hung
out with Von Eckartshausen and I think he was an
alchemist...
A: Was he zuber?
Q: (A) Zauber, in German, means 'magic.' (L) Close enough!
(A) Does this mean he was a magician?
A: Other close one... Zeuber?
25 May 1996 said:
Q: (L) Well, okay. We have several issues just now...
A: Flute.
Q: (L) What does that mean?
A: You have one.
Q: (L) I don't have a flute. Tell me about the flute.
A: Ponder.
Q: (L) Flute as in playing a tune? Another clue?
A: No.
Q: (L) And you want me to stop and ponder this right now?
Well, you play music on a flute. Usually you play happy
music on a flute.
A: Not point. On or not.
Q: (L) You guys are being really obscure tonight. Is flute
significant in some way?
A: Maybe.
Q: (L) Is there another word or two you can give me for a
clue? A: D.
Q: (L) Fluted?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Does 'fluted' have anything to do with 'grooving?'
A: Columns.
Q: (L) What columns are we talking about?
A: Ionic.
Q: (L) Why are we talking about Ionic fluted columns?
A: Because they are a link to previous direct contact between
humans and density 4 STO!
Music seems a very important clue if we rely this on the Crystal project and what C's have to say about singing to them and then at some point, all of us singing together with them. As well as music in Gurdjieff and Mouraviev's works. By searching on Google "Gurdjieff music" we have this: _https://www.google.fr/search?newwindow=1&q=gurdjieff+music&oq=gurdjieff+music&gs_l=serp.3..0j0i22i30k1l9.53956.55949.0.56201.8.6.2.0.0.0.86.459.6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.8.463...35i39k1.prF6tva187s

Oriental, Persian, Armenian, Hindu, Assyrian musics, all sounds go around Zarathousthra... ;)

I don't know if that means anything, just wanted to share thoughts while writing this post:
Gurdjieff made music with the Russian Thomas de Hartmann - Hart meaning Deer: DeerMan: Cernunnos? Celtics? Could first Celtics have lived in the same timeline than Zarathousthra?

Well, I do not know why I picked-up this specific extract about Mozart because the author also talks about Jean-Philippe Rameau who wrote an opera named Zarathousthra (p.33 of the French version).

Mozart was alive (20 years before he died) when Anquetil-Duperron, whom after working with Parsis of India, translated from old and medium Persian texts from Avesta and then published in 1771 Paris "Zend-Avesta", ouvrage de Zoroastre. From that moment, there were extreme passioned discussions in Europe and France, but it is in Germany that his translated work was the most welcomed.
Actually, Mozart died (Dec. 5, 1791) some weeks after the first representation of his opera (Sep. 30, 1791).
Rameau died before 1771, so he did not read the Anquetil-Duperron translation. However, he was a music theorist and composer (one of the famous ones of the Baroque era). _https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Philippe_Rameau

I'm glad that this sharing was not boring at all to you both and, as for the C's extract from voyageur, I'd like to find as well the extract of yours Laura, in The Wave, if it is inside of course. Can someone help me? It could help to re-read the part and try to get the meaning of it in its specific context. :)

There is more in the book than what I've shared:

...
Creation (following the last part I've shared):
- The two worlds, physical and spiritual
- Human's destiny after physical death

Zarathousthra facing his ennemies
- Discourage
- Perseverance and discourses around fire
- Victory
- Assembly of Magi

The Nietzsche's Zarathousthra in the light of Gathas

The influence of Zarathousthra

The contemporary zoroastrism and the re-discovering of Gathas (as for 30 years, zoroastrism knows a real re-birth in Iranians people. And elsewhere?)
...

And then, come the songs... that I did not read yet, as I decided to read the Thus spoke Zarathousthra Nietzsche book before. ;)
 

gdpetti

Jedi Council Member
All of it seems the classic 'dumbing down' process since the end of the Atlantean civilization... 2 steps backward and only 1 step forward... one civilization at a time... with only the question of which side does a better job with their steps... because some are small and sloopy, while others can be large and precise, which seems implied in the C's answer of: 'Hide and seek, locate and retrieve' [14-03-98]
 

JEEP

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clerck de bonk said:
Lets put this (ionic order) here for reference; __https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_order
Learning can be fun! Thanks for the above as I definitely was not thinking in that direction - more along the lines of ions/ionization (in checking, saw Ionic foot baths & Ionic (mobile app framework). I thought Ionic fluted columns were maybe something similar to columns of light - so waay off.

From wiki:
The Ionic order originated in the mid-6th century BC in Ionia, the southwestern coastland and islands of Asia Minor settled by Ionian Greeks, where an Ionian dialect was spoken. The Ionic order column was being practiced in mainland Greece in the 5th century BC. It was most popular in the Archaic Period (750-480 BC) in Ionia. The first of the great Ionic temples was the Temple of Hera on Samos, built about 570 BC–560 BC by the architect Rhoikos. It stood for only a decade before it was leveled by an earthquake. A longer-lasting 6th century Ionic temple was the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. The Parthenon, although it conforms mainly to the Doric order, also has some Ionic elements. A more purely Ionic mode to be seen on the Athenian Acropolis is exemplified in the Erechtheum.

Vitruvius, a practicing architect who worked in the time of Augustus, reports (De Architectura, iv) that the Doric has a basis of sturdy male body proportions while Ionic depends on "more graceful" female body proportions.
[...]
The Ionic column is always more slender than the Doric, therefore always has a base:[3] Ionic columns are eight and nine column-diameters tall, and even more in the Antebellum colonnades of late American Greek revival plantation houses.

Ionic columns are most often fluted. After a little early experimentation, the number of hollow flutes in the shaft settled at 24. This standardization kept the fluting in a familiar proportion to the diameter of the column at any scale, even when the height of the column was exaggerated. Roman fluting leaves a little of the column surface between each hollow; Greek fluting runs out to a knife edge that was easily scarred.


Architects' first real look at the Greek Ionic order: Julien David LeRoy, Les ruines plus beaux des monuments de la Grèce Paris, 1758 (Plate XX)


Ionic order: 1 - entablature, 2 - column, 3 - cornice, 4 - frieze, 5 - architrave or epistyle, 6 - capital (composed of abacus and volutes), 7 - shaft, 8 - base, 9 - stylobate, 10 - krepis.
Q: (L) Does 'fluted' have anything to do with 'grooving?'
A: Columns.
Q: (L) What columns are we talking about?
A: Ionic.
Q: (L) Why are we talking about Ionic fluted columns?
A: Because they are a link to previous direct contact between
humans and density 4 STO!
It just keeps getting more & more fascinating! And I would have never thought The Magic Flute would have anything to do w/ this.

I'm wondering, too, about the significance of the Zoroastrianism symbol. It certainly has been copied repeatedly in a stylized way for modern corporate symbols - and I used to own a Mazda GLC (great little car - it was):

The Faravahar is one of the best-known symbols of Zoroastrianism, the state religion of ancient Iran/the Persian Empire. This religious-cultural symbol was adapted by the Pahlavi dynasty to represent the Iranian nation. The winged disc has a long history in the art and culture of the ancient Near and Middle East.







This prominent Rosicrucian symbol, adapted from the Zoroastrian/Assyrian one, is called the Wings of Jehovah
In looking at the selection of images, saw these as well:

MAZDA HUMATA, GOOD THOUGHTS, HUKHTA, GOOD WORDS, HUVERESHTA, GOOD DEEDS'' THERE IS ONLY ONE PATH , THE PATH OF ASHA OR TRUTH, THAT LEADS US TO PERFECTION, HAPPINESS AND ETERNAL BLISS.''



There's probably a reason that corporate symbols have co-opted the symbols of the ancient past - I've wondered if in viewing them, some component of our DNA reacts to them as the memory of what they really stand for remains. And maybe that's why the PTB uses them - they could be connected w/ remembrance of global catastrophe & thus, an intuitive sense of fear is imparted. Or not - guess I'll find out some day.
 

Voyageur

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JEEP said:
clerck de bonk said:
Lets put this (ionic order) here for reference; __https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_order
Learning can be fun! Thanks for the above as I definitely was not thinking in that direction - more along the lines of ions/ionization (in checking, saw Ionic foot baths & Ionic (mobile app framework). I thought Ionic fluted columns were maybe something similar to columns of light - so waay off.

From wiki:
The Ionic order originated in the mid-6th century BC in Ionia, the southwestern coastland and islands of Asia Minor settled by Ionian Greeks, where an Ionian dialect was spoken. The Ionic order column was being practiced in mainland Greece in the 5th century BC. It was most popular in the Archaic Period (750-480 BC) in Ionia. The first of the great Ionic temples was the Temple of Hera on Samos, built about 570 BC–560 BC by the architect Rhoikos. It stood for only a decade before it was leveled by an earthquake. A longer-lasting 6th century Ionic temple was the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. The Parthenon, although it conforms mainly to the Doric order, also has some Ionic elements. A more purely Ionic mode to be seen on the Athenian Acropolis is exemplified in the Erechtheum.

Vitruvius, a practicing architect who worked in the time of Augustus, reports (De Architectura, iv) that the Doric has a basis of sturdy male body proportions while Ionic depends on "more graceful" female body proportions.
[...]
The Ionic column is always more slender than the Doric, therefore always has a base:[3] Ionic columns are eight and nine column-diameters tall, and even more in the Antebellum colonnades of late American Greek revival plantation houses.

Ionic columns are most often fluted. After a little early experimentation, the number of hollow flutes in the shaft settled at 24. This standardization kept the fluting in a familiar proportion to the diameter of the column at any scale, even when the height of the column was exaggerated. Roman fluting leaves a little of the column surface between each hollow; Greek fluting runs out to a knife edge that was easily scarred.


Architects' first real look at the Greek Ionic order: Julien David LeRoy, Les ruines plus beaux des monuments de la Grèce Paris, 1758 (Plate XX)


Ionic order: 1 - entablature, 2 - column, 3 - cornice, 4 - frieze, 5 - architrave or epistyle, 6 - capital (composed of abacus and volutes), 7 - shaft, 8 - base, 9 - stylobate, 10 - krepis.
Q: (L) Does 'fluted' have anything to do with 'grooving?'
A: Columns.
Q: (L) What columns are we talking about?
A: Ionic.
Q: (L) Why are we talking about Ionic fluted columns?
A: Because they are a link to previous direct contact between
humans and density 4 STO!
It just keeps getting more & more fascinating! And I would have never thought The Magic Flute would have anything to do w/ this.[...]
Just cross referencing Ionic, and it appears in a couple of places (like the reference you posted, clerck de bonk) - nothing came up in Fulcanelli, and one was in Manley Hall's writing. It comes up in reference to the known historical school (Ionic) and the various people (from Diogenes to Anaxagroras etc.) associated with this school. Laura discusses some of this in Horns of Moses.

The Greek school of philosophy had its inception with the seven immortalized thinkers upon whom was first conferred the appellation of Sophos, "the wise." According to Diogenes Laertius, these were Thales, Solon, Chilon, Pittacus, Bias, Cleobulus, and Periander. Water was conceived by Thales to be the primal principle or element, upon which the earth floated like a ship, and earthquakes were the result of disturbances in this universal sea. Since Thales was an Ionian, the school perpetuating his tenets became known as the Ionic. He died in 546 B.C., and was ucceeded by Anaximander, who in turn was followed by Anaximenes, Anaxagoras, and Archelaus, with whom the Ionic school ended. Anaximander, differing from his master Thales, declared measureless and indefinable infinity to be the principle from which all things were generated. Anaximenes asserted air to be the first element of the universe; that souls and even the Deity itself were composed of it. Anaxagoras (whose doctrine savors of atomism) held God to be an infinite self-moving mind; that this divine infinite Mind, not inclosed in any body, is the efficient cause of all things; out of the infinite matter consisting of similar parts, everything being made according to its species by the divine mind, who when all things were at first confusedly mingled together, came and reduced them to order." Archelaus declared the principle of all things to be twofold: mind (which was incorporeal) and air (which was corporeal), the rarefaction and condensation of the latter resulting in fire and water respectively. The stars were conceived by Archelaus to be burning iron places. Heraclitus (who lived 536-470 B.C. and is sometimes included in the Ionic school) in his doctrine of change and eternal flux asserted fire to be the first element and also the state into which the world would ultimately be reabsorbed. The soul of the world he regarded as an exhalation
from its humid parts, and he declared the ebb and flow of the sea to be caused by the sun.
Of the term 'Fluted Column' The only place in reference; second to the very last paragraph found thus far was in MH's book whereby MH uses the term, fluted column (in plural) in a closing remark tempting the form of a greater mystery.

SToaA said:
In this era of "practical" things men ridicule even the existence of God. They scoff at goodness while they ponder with befuddled minds the phantasmagoria of materiality. They have forgotten the path which leads beyond the stars. The great mystical institutions of antiquity which invited man to enter into his divine inheritance have crumbled, and institutions of human scheming now stand where once the ancient houses of learning rose a mystery of fluted columns and polished marble. The white-robed sages who gave to the world its ideals of culture and beauty have gathered their robes about them and departed from the sight of men. Nevertheless, this little earth is bathed as of old in the sunlight of its Providential Generator. Wide-eyed babes still face the mysteries of physical existence. Men continue to laugh and cry, to love and hate; Some still dream of a nobler world, a fuller life, a more perfect realization. In both the heart and mind of man the gates which lead from mortality to immortality are still ajar. Virtue, love, and idealism are yet the regenerators of humanity. God continues to love and guide the destinies of His creation. The path still winds upward to accomplishment. The soul of man has not been deprived of its wings; they are merely folded under its garment of flesh. Philosophy is ever that magic power which, sundering the vessel of clay, releases the soul from its bondage to habit and perversion. Still as of old, the soul released can spread its wings and soar to the very source of itself.
Demarcated "polished marble" as bolded along with fluted column; seems slightly clue-like, osit. There may be additional clues with Pythagoras (his marble floors), not sure.
 
voyageur, if it may be considered as a hint, Fulcanelli mentions Thales of Miletus in such a way:

The Mystery of the Cathedrals said:
Mythology would have it diat the famous soothsayer, Tiresias had perfect knowledge of the Language of the Birds, which Minerva, goddess of Wisdom, revealed to him. He shared it, they say, with Thales of Miletus, Melampus and Appolonius of Tyana," legendary personages, whose names, in the science we are considering, ring eloquently enough to require no analysis from me.
So there may be some alchemical data embedded in the stories with his name.
 

luc

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obyvatel said:
This post is about a possible connection between Gurdjieff and Zoroastrianism. J G Bennett, in his book ""Gurdjieff: Making a New World" hypothesized that Gurdjieff's teachings, especially what he put down in Beelzebub's Tales, were strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism.
I wanted to write about this as well since I'm currently reading Bennett's book, but saw that you already described what Bennett had to say.

I'm not sure what to make of Bennett, his mind seems to be a bit too 'driven' and sometimes I think he jumps to conclusions too quickly as his mind races on. There is a 'taste' there I can't really put my finger on, plus he doesn't really provide much references/footnotes. But honestly I'm in no position to judge the accurateness of most of his historical references. He obviously was a very learned man, read several languages and travelled far, so I think he has quite some interesting things to say. What I find fascinating is his description of the history of the Middle East, the various power centers there etc., which made me think of that 'huge portal' the Cs said is located there.

Fwiw, here is a longer quote from the chapter "Is There an 'Inner Circle' of Humanity?" where Bennett also talks about the Zoroastrian connection (bolded a few things that caught my eye):

Bennett - Gurdjieff: Making a New World said:
We should here note that Rudolf Steiner in 1911 wrote a book called The Spiritual Guidance of Mankind in which he claims that, by clairvoyant insight, he was able to reconstruct the history of the Zoroastrian influence in human life over a period of eight thousand years, or from the origins of the Aryan culture. As Gurdjieff makes several references to anthroposophy in Beelzebub’s Tales, we may assume that he was aware of the importance that Steiner attached to the Zoroastrian traditions. He invariably refers to anthroposophy in slighting terms as an aberration of the same order as theosophy and spiritualism. It does not, by any means, follow that he rejected all the conclusions reached by Rudolf Steiner. From his attitude in conversation, I would surmise that he objected to the uncritical acceptance of statements which were unsupported by historical evidence.

It has been suggested that the 'Cosmic Individual Incarnated from Above', who is called Ashiata Shiemash in Beelzebub’s Tales1 is intended for Zarathustra (Zoroaster). Gurdjieff certainly spoke of Ashiata Shiemash in three different ways. He was an historical character who had really lived in Asia thousands of years ago. He was also the image of the prophet of the New Epoch who is still to come, and he was also Gurdjieff himself. He said more than once: "I am Ashiata Shiemash". It has also been asserted that these chapters are purely allegorical and refer to no historical situation past, present or future. In my opinion, all four interpretations are valid and we should therefore examine the first to see if it helps us with the search for an 'Inner Circle'.

After his enlightenment, Ashiata is said to have gone to "the capital city Djoolfapal of the country then called Kurlandtech which was situated in the middle of the continent of Asia", If this refers to Zarathustra's journey in his thirtieth year, after receiving enlightenment, the city must be Balkh where Kave Gushtaspa was king. Here Zarathustra found two men, counsellors of the king, Jamaspa and Frashaostra who were seeking for wisdom. He enlightened them and initiated the king. There is a remarkable verse in the Avesta (fifth Gatha, verse 16) which says: "The leadership of the Maga mysteries has been bestowed on Kave Gushtaspa. At the same time he has been initiated into the path of Vohu Manah by inner-vision. This is the way that Ahura Mazda has decreed according to Asha."

In later Persian sacred literature, Asha becomes Ashtvahasht, which is strangely suggestive of Ashiata Shiemash. According to the legend, Kave Gushtaspa placed himself entirely under the direction of Zarathustra and this inaugurated the reign of the Good Law.

It is obviously possible that Gurdjieff has all this in mind, but he left no clear indication. The name Ashiata Shiemash can be derived from the Turkish word Ash, meaning food, and the words iat and iem which refer to eating. According to this interpretation, Ashiata Shiemash personifies the principle of reciprocal feeding.1 This is very interesting because of the conclusion I reach on other grounds that the principle has a Zoroastrian origin. (See Chapter 8 below.)

The nearest Gurdjieff comes anywhere to describing a society that influenced history is in the "Organization for Man's Existence Created by the Very Saintly Ashiata Shiemash"2 The society, called the Brotherhood Heechtvori, developed from the society he found in Djoolfapal (Balkh?). He interprets the name to mean 'only he will be called and will become the Son of God who acquires in himself conscience.' This society was not occupied with social organization and reform nor with the exercise of power. It was a training establishment to which people went to have their 'reason enlightened'; first as to the real presence of conscience in man; and, secondly, as to the means whereby it can be 'manifested in order that a man may respond to the real sense and aim of his existence'.1 The external, social consequences of the training are depicted as deep and far-reaching. New kinds of relationship came into being, men looked for guidance rather than for authority. Social and political conflicts disappeared. This was not the result of reform or reorganization, but solely of a change in people. I think Gurdjieff uses the story of Ashiata Shiemash not only to underline the central significance of conscience in his message to humanity, but also to suggest that he has no confidence in any kind of occult 'action at a distance'. People are to be helped by actions that they can understand and, in due course, produce for themselves.

Zoroaster was associated in the minds of Central Asian communities with the struggle that endured for thousands of years between the Turanian nomads and the Aryan settlers. The 'Avestan Gathas' often identify the Turanians with the evil spirits in spite of the fact that more than one Turanian prince became a follower of Zoroaster. Gurdjieff's society, 'The Earth is Equally Free for All', was to adopt the ancient Turanian language and combine it with the Aryan religion of the Parsis and establish its main centre in Ferghana. The only possible interpretation of such a combination is that it refers to a society that was on such a high level that the conflicts that divide religions and peoples did not touch it. No higher society could be imagined than the 'Assembly-of-All-theLiving-Saints-of-the-Earth'.

The connection between this society and the Sarmān Brotherhood is given both by the name and by the location, first in Mosul and then in Bokhara. In Meetings with Remarkable Men, Gurdjieff describes how he and his Armenian friend, Pogossian, found ancient Armenian texts, including the book Merkhavat, that referred to the 'Sarmoung' society as a famous esoteric school that according to tradition had been founded in Babylon as far back as 2500 BC and which was known to have existed in Mesopotamia up to the sixth or seventh century of the Christian era. The school was said to have possessed great knowledge containing the key to many secret mysteries.2 The date of 2500 BC would put the founding of this school several centuries before the time of Hammurabi, the greatest lawgiver of antiquity, but it is not an impossible one. It is an interesting date, because it coincides with the migration that brought together a Semitic people, the Akkadians, and the older Indo-European race of the Sumerians. It is quite plausible to suppose that a school of wisdom could then have been established that guided the course of events towards the wonderful achievements of Sargon I and Hammurabi. If such a school existed, it would have abandoned Babylon after the time of Darius II, about 400 BC, and could very well have moved north into the upper valley of the Tigris where the Parthians were about to begin their long period of dominance in the mountains of Kurdistan and the Caucasus. The Parthians brought with them a pure Zoroastrian tradition. The Armenian hegemony bridged the gap until the arrival of the Seljuks at the end of the first millennium AD. This was a time when caravan routes in all directions passed through the upper valleys and it was possible to collect and concentrate traditions from China to Egypt.

This leads us to the next phase of Gurdjieff 's contact with the Sarmān Brotherhood. He reports that in the course of a sojourn at Ani, one of the capitals of the Bagratid Armenian kingdom, he and Pogossian found a collection of letters written on parchment sometime in the seventh century AD, one of which contained a reference to the Sarmān Brotherhood as having one of their main centres near the town of Siranush. They had migrated to the north-east and settled in the valley of Izrumin, three days' journey from 'Nivssi'. Gurdjieff goes on to say that their further researches led them to identify Nivssi with Mosul which is already connected with the Society of the Enlightened. By the date mentioned, Nineveh had ceased to be inhabited but Nimrud, the ancient capital of the Assyrian king, Assurbanipal, was still a great trading centre on account of its location at a point where the Tigris begins to be navigable all the year round.

Three days' journey by camel from Nimrud through almost desert country leads to a valley green with trees, in the midst of which is Sheikh Adi - the chief sanctuary of the Yezidi Brotherhood. Now the Yezidis are certainly inheritors of the old Zoroastrian tradition and Gurdjieff specifically refers to them among the groups of Assyrians he found in the region surrounding Mosul which was the heart of the old Assyrian Empire. I visited Sheikh Adi in 1952 and was convinced that the Yezidis possessed secrets unsuspected by orientalists who classify their faith as a relic of paganism. Their connection with the Mithraic tradition is generally accepted because of their chief festival of the white bull which takes place at Sheikh Adi in October every year. They are even more directly descended from the followers of Manes whose influence spread very widely all through Asia in the third and fourth centuries of our era, only two hundred years before the Sarmān Brotherhood was reported as having its headquarters at Izrumin.

It seems probable that a very strong tradition did exist in Chaldaea from very early times. Gurdjieff, both in his writings and in his conversations with his pupils, constantly referred to this ancient tradition. We can assume that, during the great upheavals of history, the guardians of the tradition responded in the way described in the last chapter: dividing into three branches, one of which migrated, one was assimilated into the new regime and the third went into hiding.

At the time of the Muslim conquests in the seventh and eighth centuries, groups like the Yezidis and the Ahl-i-Haqq were formed. They presented more or less acceptable doctrines to the Arabs, who could not understand the subtleties of Persian spirituality. There was relatively little forced conversion of Nestorian Christians, whose beliefs were substantially compatible with the teaching of the Qur'an. Our main concern is with the third group who withdrew into Central Asia. This is the group that corresponds to Gurdjieff 's account of the Sarmān Brotherhood.

Gurdjieff himself makes no attempt to explain the migration. In his adventures with Pogossian, the 'Sarmoung' Brotherhood is located in Chaldaea. In the story of Prince Yuri Lubovedsky,1 they have moved to Central Asia, twenty days' journey from Kabul and twelve days' journey from Bokhara. He refers to the valleys of the Pyandje and the Syr Darya, which suggest an area in the mountains south-east of Tashkent. He discloses at the end of this chapter that this

1 Meetings with Remarkable Men, Chapter VII, p. 149.

particular brotherhood had another centre in the 'Olman' monastery on the northern slopes of the Himalayas. The word 'Olman' is a link with Olmantaboor who was the head of the 'Assembly-of-the-Enlightened'. The northern slopes of the Himalayas connect with the Amu Darya and Syr Darya rivers.

We must now closely examine the slender clues that Gurdjieff has left us to reconstruct the teaching he found at the monastery between the Amu and Syr Darya rivers, and described both directly and obliquely in Meetings with Remarkable Men.
 

Laura

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Yes, the Gurdjieffian connections are quite fascinating. I hope I can find some resources that give sources! Still digging.

I also picked up a book about the Yezidis since I thought I ought to pull on that thread just a bit and see where it leads. Have a book next in the pile about the Mitanni empire. The problem is, one can pull on threads from now 'til kingdom come and never cover everything! Some days I read until my eyes literally burn and there is so much more. I think I should start writing what I've accumulated soon. I'm not getting any younger.
 

mkrnhr

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I found this little discussion in One the origins of Judaism by P. R. Davis fascinating:

pages 97 said:
Yahweh the Untouchable
Second Isaiah's antipathy to the worship of images is evident. The oft-expressed puzzle here (recognized too often to need citing) is that much of the invective is rather silly. Worshippers of deities that are represented in the form of idols do not make the mistake of thinking that these images are the gods: they do not worship the object but what it represents. But of course the attack—either implicitly or explicitly—is obviously against Judeans, but not because they are in danger of worshipping other deities—such worship is not criticized as such; monolatry is not the issue here, though it is elsewhere, and no doubt the poet hopes that eventually all the human race will worship the one true god. But in the anti-image passages the question is whether gods are to be represented in material form, and in making this point the poet is attacking, surely not other deities, but the iconic worship of the god Yhwh. This attack is supported by the claims that Yhwh is the creator (40:28) and cannot be created/made (as an image) and that he cannot be represented in any form (40:18) because he is to be invisible ("hidden": 45:15). The makers of idols who are castigated (44:9-21) are unlikely to have been non-Judeans fashioning statues of non-Judean gods, but Judean craftsmen making images of Yhwh.

The iconic worship of the old monarchic era Yhwh (and of his consort Asherah) was normal in Israelite and Judah, perhaps in the form of a bull—so, apparently at Bethel—and probably persisted into the early Persian period (see Schmidt, 1995). The much-discussed drachma coin from Judah/Yehud (Meshorer, 1967: 36-38 and plate I, coin no. 4; 1982: 21-28; cf. Grabbe, 1992:1.71-72) may display how the Persian authorities imagined Yhwh to look, namely as a warrior in a chariot. This is how Ezekiel 1 portrays him, too. But it also stresses the form of Yhwh as a human (or like a human: the force of the kaph is uncertain), just as texts from the Hellenistic period also represent him as such, together with the other minor deities who carry out his instructions (cf, Daniel 7 and 8-12 passim). It is possible that in the wake of the aniconic reform, or even as part of it, Yhwh was conceived as human in form, as Gen. 1.27 implies. This new human-like but not-to-be-represented form is one of the features (along with the lack of consort) that distinguishes New Yhwh from Old Yhwh (another, mentioned earlier, is the merging of the Israelite "god of Jacob/Israel" with the Yhwh Sebaot of Jerusalem [see Jer. 7:3, 21; 9:15; 19:3 etc.]). Was he also becoming identified further with the high god of the Persian empire, Ahuramazda (who in Babylonia was identified with Marduk)? This is the impression given by the "edict of Cyrus" in 2 Chron. 36:22 and Ezra 1, where the name of Yhwh is put on Cyrus's lips. Such an identification would not only be logically necessary, but politically convenient. Among other things, it would of course authorize the rewriting of Mesopotamian myths which, in retrospect, would have been claimed as describing the acts of the creator Yhwh under other names. There is evidence that Ahuramazda was worshipped aniconically (as opposed to Anahita), but whether the attempt claimed by Xerxes to suppress daiva-worship (see Boyce, 1982: 173-77) is in any way connected with the reform of certain local cults is uncertain. But there is every reason to suppose, given the treatment of Persian kings in the biblical literature, that a tacit recognition of Marduk, Ahuramazda and Yhwh as the same high god was widespread in Judah, and that Second Isaiah gives us a glimpse into the process whereby the creation of the cult of the high god Yhwh was promoted in the temple city of Jerusalem so favoured, it seems, by the Persians. Yhwh became imperial: god of gods, king of kings, Most High, but his real capital city was Jerusalem. We may finally return briefly to Morton Smith's wider interest in things Persian. Persian, specifically Zoroastrian influence on Judaism has been suggested many times (see Yamauchi, 1990 for a survey and unconvincing rebuttal). The idea was first mooted as early as the eighteenth century, and later, Bousset (1902) and Bertholet (1926) were its chief advocates. A number of scholars currently adhere to this view, but mainstream opinion does not seem to support the view, though the climate is changing. The claimed areas of influence are well-known: angelology, eschatology (including resurrection, judgment, heaven and hell), dualism, creation and, so Boyce (1982: 76-77) claims, purity. The obstacle to reaching a firm conclusion on this claim is the late date of most of the Persian sources. But it is equally difficult to dale the biblical sources, and it does not seem from the material evidence or from a critical analysis of the biblical texts that such ideas were present in Israelite or Judahite religion during the monarchic period.

It is, in any case, unreasonable to assume that Persian religious ideas had no influence at all on the religion of a province whose temple was built, according to its own writers, by Persian decree, and whose religious leaders, again according to its own sources, came to Judah under Persian auspices. But in many respects Jewish doctrines also differ from Zoroastrian ones. The question is the extent to which the religion of Judah from the sixth or fifth centuries onwards was shaped by Zoroastrianism. And such an evaluation will obviously depend on one's estimate of the alternative influence—the religion of Judah itself in the pre-Persian era—which itself was shaped by imperial culture and religion.

Might we go as far as to claim that the cult of Yhwh in the Persian period was Zoroastrianism, localized and grafted onto an indigenous cult? Most scholars would probably regard this formulation as too extreme. But at all events, the influence of Persian religion was probably exerted continuously into the Greco-Roman period. The Parthians, after all, came to be the rulers of Babylon and close neighbours of Judah in the second century BCE onwards. They plundered Jerusalem in 40 BCE and were confronted by Herod the Great. How else do we explain the dualism of some of the Qumran writings, and the magi of Matthew's gospel? Whatever the role of Persian religion in the formation of early Judaism, Second Isaiah is the key witness.
Here is the possible depiction of YHWH from the Persian period (source Wikipedia):

 

genero81

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Laura said:
Yes, the Gurdjieffian connections are quite fascinating. I hope I can find some resources that give sources! Still digging.

I also picked up a book about the Yezidis since I thought I ought to pull on that thread just a bit and see where it leads. Have a book next in the pile about the Mitanni empire. The problem is, one can pull on threads from now 'til kingdom come and never cover everything! Some days I read until my eyes literally burn and there is so much more. I think I should start writing what I've accumulated soon. I'm not getting any younger.
Yes please. :)
 

Eboard10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Davidski from Eurogenes Blog posted an analysis showing a contrast in population affinities between Early Bronze Age Armenians (3300–2100 BC) and Middle Late Bronze Age Armenians (2100–1200 BC).

The EBA Armenians and Kura-Araxes peoples show a close affinity to Northeast Caucasians. The Kura-Araxes are considered as being some of the early speakers of the Hurrian language which is thought to be closely related to present-day Northeast Caucasians languages.

The MLBA Armenians instead show a higher affinity to North Europeans, mainly Swedes and Latvians suggesting that a group from the north related to present-day Baltic and Scandinavians peoples moved to the Armenian Plateau during the Middle Bronze Age period. They also show a relation to the Sintashta people of the Middle Bronze Age Ural steppes which are also northern peoples.


Hurrians and the others

Here's another graph based on my new D-stats datasheet. The contrast in the population affinities of Armenia_MLBA (Middle Late Bronze Age) and Armenia_EBA (Early Bronze Age) is, at least for me, surprising.



Armenia_EBA or Kura-Araxes shows strong affinity to Caucasus populations, particularly those from the Northeast Caucasus. This is very cool, and it makes a lot of sense, because historical linguists and archaeologists generally consider Kura-Araxes people to have been early speakers of Hurrian, an ancient language thought to be closely related to present-day Northeast Caucasian languages.

But what's going on with Armenia_MLBA? I really didn't expect to see Latvians and Swedes sitting near the top of this graph. Clearly, someone from the north, closely related to present-day people from around the Baltic Sea, moved into the Armenian Plateau during or just before the Middle Bronze Age. But who were they?

I don't have a clue, but f4-stats suggest that they may have also been closely related to the Sintashta people of the Middle Bronze Age Ural steppes, who do appear very Northern European in terms of genome-wide genetic structure. The time frame fits, so does the expansive and militaristic nature of the Sintashta Culture (see here).

Yoruba Sintashta Armenia_EBA Armenia_MLBA f4 0.000676 Z 1.395
Yoruba Corded_Ware_CE Armenia_EBA Armenia_MLBA f4 0.000383 Z 0.933
Yoruba Poltavka Armenia_EBA Armenia_MLBA f4 0.000373 Z 0.814
Yoruba Andronovo Armenia_EBA Armenia_MLBA f4 0.000214 Z 0.486
Yoruba Yamnaya_Samara Armenia_EBA Armenia_MLBA f4 0.000128 Z 0.321

By the way, the stats are based on transversion sites only to limit the effects of post-mortem damage on the ancient samples, some of which are not UDG treated.
 

John G

The Living Force
voyageur said:
A quick review of what Manley Hall wrote about Zoroaster describes Pythagoras as being said to have been influenced (maybe)...

Later on there is reference to Salamanders (which relates to Zoroaster):

Mediæval investigators of the Nature spirits were of the opinion that the most common form of salamander was lizard-like in shape, a foot or more in length, and visible as a glowing Urodela, twisting and crawling in the midst of the fire. Another group was described as huge flaming giants in flowing robes, protected with sheets of fiery armor. Certain mediæval authorities, among them the Abbé de Villars, held that Zarathustra (Zoroaster) was the son of Vesta (believed to have been the wife of Noah) and the great salamander Oromasis. Hence, from that time onward, undying fires have been maintained upon the Persian altars in honor of Zarathustra's flaming father.
... He ends talking about Mithra (and a book perhaps to be read):

Alexander Wilder, in his Philosophy and Ethics of the Zoroasters, states that Mithras is the Zend title for the sun, and he is supposed to dwell within that shining orb... The Mithraic cult is a simplification of the more elaborate teachings of Zarathustra (Zoroaster), the Persian fire magician...
Laura said:
... In the end, all of this does affect how one must "read" Paul. I would suggest that he was very familiar with the Enochian tradition derived from the Persian/Babylonian culture, and that his ideas of the "kingdom" were much in line with Zoroaster's "Making Wonderful." He was also most likely fully aware of the probable Zoroastrian nature of Second Isaiah and its acceptance of Cyrus/Persians as the Messiah. He would then have been fully able to transfer those concepts onto Caesar. Because, in the end, there is much of Zoroaster in Paul.
and maybe via what Laura has said about Posidonius having cometary bombardment knowledge, Mithraism in Caesar's army, and that Cilician pirates thing, there was some Zoraster in Caesar too.

http://kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/mithra-the-pagan-christ/



The main fire altar at the Atash-kade (Zoroastrian Fire-Temple) of Baku in the Republic of Azerbaijan (known as Arran and the Khanates until 1918) (Picture Source: Panoramio). This site is now registered with UNESCO as a world heritage site.

An inscription by a “T. Flavius Hyginus” dating to around 80 to 100 AD/CE in Rome dedicates an altar to “Sol Invictus Mithras”—”The Unconquered Sun Mithra”—revealing the hybridization reflected in other artifacts and myths. Regarding this title, Dr. Richard L. Gordon, honorary professor of Religionsgeschichte der Antike at the University of Erfurt, Thuringen, remarks:

“It is true that one…cult title…of Mithras was, or came to be, Deus Sol Invictus Mithras (but he could also be called… Deus Invictus Sol Mithras, Sol Invictus Mithras…Strabo, 15.3.13 (p. 732C), basing his information on a lost work, either by Posidonius (ca 135-51 BC) or by Apollodorus of Artemita (first decades of 1 cent. BC), states baldly that the Western Parthians “call the sun Mithra.” According to Gordon: The Roman cult seems to have taken this existing association and developed it in their own special way. Mithra is who the monuments proclaim him—the Unconquered Sun. (Gordon, “FAQ.” (Emph. added.))
Maybe Posidonius and thus Caesar came across knowledge of comets via Zoroastrianism as well as Stoicism. That undying fire reminds me of this for some reason:

Session 19 July 1997

Q: Well, I found some connections between some tombs in Rome, Nicolas Poussin, and some tombs in England, the processions of 'angels' on the Canary Islands. The connection seems to be these funny lights, or Candles, with 'peculiar wicks,' as they are described, which are 'eternal flames.' I am wondering if this is what you meant by connecting them by the frequency of light?

A: "Eternal flame" adorns the tomb of JFK. Connection?
 

Merlin

Padawan Learner
Really very curious to know if we have asked the C's on details of the Indian Vedas ? Who was the author, location, time capsule or anything other than the meagre but tantalising glimpses information provided in the forum. I scanned through the posts but couldn't pick up much.

Session Date: August 14th 2016
Q: (L) I'm just saying "close", because obviously there are some distortions and so forth. So did Zarathushtra modify this original religion because he had a vision, or...?

A: The ideas had already been corrupted, and Zarathushtra sought to recover the truth.

Q: (L) So it had already been corrupted, and he was trying to bring it back in line. He got close, but didn't quite make it. Is that it?

A: Yes

Q: (L) And what had it been corrupted to?

A: The Indian Vedas will give clues.
Luc hits the nail bang on the head when he says:-

Quote from: Bennett - Gurdjieff: Making a New World

We should here note that Rudolf Steiner in 1911 wrote a book called The Spiritual Guidance of Mankind in which he claims that, by clairvoyant insight, he was able to reconstruct the history of the Zoroastrian influence in human life over a period of eight thousand years, or from the origins of the Aryan culture.
Among practicing Zoroastrians, the era of Zoroaster is no mystery. He lived between 7388-7052 BC. This is researched in the Book "The Aryan Ecliptic Cycle; Glimpses into Ancient Indo-Iranian Religious History From 25628 BC to 292 AD" by HS Spencer (b 1887) and published in 1965.

The legend of the split of Aryans into Daevas (Vedic People) and Asuras (Zoroastrians) was caused by celestial influences or Space Wars.

Aryans Split into Vedic People and Zoroastrians - Harvard Pilologist Michael Witzel elaborates in his 1989 paper "Tracing The Vedic Dialect" that King Pururavas wed the celestial nymph Urvasi and had two sons who fought for control of the Empire. He settled the dispute by sending Amavasu to the West to found the Persian Empire while Ayu went East and settled in the Yamuna Gangetic plains. Centuries later, Zoroaster pronounced the Vedic People as evil and issued the Vendidad or "Vi-daevo-dat" i.e Laws against the Daevas.

To further elaborate, and if Laura's eyes have not given up on the subject, check out these fascinating reads:-

The Aryan Debate, Thomas R Trautmann, Pub: Oxford Univ Press, 2008
and
The Vedic People: Their History and Geography, Rajesh Kochhar, Pub: 2000
 
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