I'd like for Laura to ask the Cs what happened to the Dutch girls Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon when they disappeared in the Panamian jungle?

I'm merely saying that a cover-up similar (see videos) to the Panama disappearance happened in the Roswell case. First they said it was a UFO crashed, then it was a weather balloon, then it was project Mogul (might confuse a little). Anyway, the cover-up in the Roswell story hid one of the most astounding secrets of our time. I merely suggested the bad (no question about that) cover-up there happened here.
 
Not to discount a conspiracy, but maybe it's not as it seems. Items turning up "neatly folded", a shoe with a foot in, random bones being found, photos being manipulated and the weather turning bad after they went missing all sound like a classic Missing 411 case.
Absolutely, they were near boulders and water as well and the search dogs never picked up a scent. I recently rewatched some videos about the parents of one of the girls who from the outset had said that something didn't add up, but of course they didn't know what exactly. It was probably a gut feeling? They actually went to Panama and walked the same trail as their daughter did on that fateful day.

Perhaps there is one big advantage here: There was a lot of publicity about this case in Holland and there are many internet sleuths who are interested in this case, so it is a chance for us to learn about 411 cases, just like some articles on SOTT like this one:
 
In the following video IMO there are snippets to be found that expose the high strangeness of this case. For instance the bras of the girls were also found. Both videos are with English subtitles, BTW.


Here is the Pianista trail Kris's parents walked in order to find some answers. I could be wrong, but that video left me with a strong impression that they were taken from that trail and never walked on as some people speculate. Also, they could have been taken in the afternoon at about 4.30 p.m. (when more 411 Missing cases occur?), because that's when they tried to call the Dutch emergency number. They failed, because they had no reception. It's not surprising that the authorities now claim that it was an accident that killed the girls, but the parents are still questioning this in the video and explain why. It's worth the watch if you would like to know a bit more about this case.


This case also demonstrates how devastating these 411 cases are for friends and family if people don't have any knowledge of Dave Paulides's work for instance, so they will keep wondering till the end of their days what happened to their loved ones.:-(
 
I forgot to mention that a Brit disappeared from the same small town in Panama, called Boquete, 5 years before the two Dutch girls went missing. You can hear about the 29-year-old Alex Humphrey @23.50 minutes and it is in English, since his father was given the opportunity to talk on Dutch TV (unfortunately, it's very short).

I could be wrong, but it seems like another 411 missing case, although none of his belongings or body parts were ever found.

For future reference here are a few articles about the missing Alex. The parts which I found interesting are in bold.

Gill's one-week trip to Panama is not one any parent would relish making. She knows she is unlikely to uncover further clues to Alex's whereabouts, since there have already been extensive searches and press coverage. Alex's brothers, Andrew, 32, and Martin, 34, have spent time in Panama doing national press interviews and working with the search organisation Sinaproc, which has used boat, helicopter and sniffer dogs to hunt for Alex. Nothing so far has been found. [...]
"It's very difficult, because every hypothesis we come up with has been shot down. If he had been kidnapped, there would be a ransom demand. And Sinaproc says that if there had been a mugging that went wrong, the muggers would be unlikely to hang around to get rid of the body. The explanation I find easiest to live with is that Alex has wandered off the tourist trail and has had an accident, slipped or tripped. But Sinaproc feel this is also unlikely because by now he would have been discovered.
That's the conclusion the authorities have come up with in the case of Lisanne and Kris, only because they found a few bones and some items of clothing.

Alex's mum called Gill might know deep down that something really strange has happened to her son:
"If I believed in UFOs, I'd say there has been an alien abduction – but I don't believe in them and I don't know what else to think. There is just no trace, and I have no idea what has happened."
From another article (Denver Humphrey is Alex's dad):
So the family is left to speculate about what happened to the youngest son, including the possibility he was abducted by organ traffickers.

“Bodies turn up if nature claims them,” Denver said. “If it’s a drowning, the body will wash up. If somebody comes to an end in a jungle, the natives who know every inch of it will find them.

“But there’s been no body, no ransom note. His passport and credit cards were in his room. No theft was involved.

“We heard of a south American girl who went missing nearby and her body was found with no organs. It’s a theory that fits.”
Sounds like a Missing 411 case to me. Why would smugglers leave her body for other people to find?

There is something else I'd like to mention, but I can't find the comment which was underneath one of the YT videos about the Dutch girls which said that the natives in that area know about these high strangeness/missing 411 cases. David Paulides said the same thing once, but so far I haven't seen any follow-up video about this, although he was planning to talk to some natives about all these missing people.
 
From the information available, one likely scenario is that they got lost, stumbled upon something (like a drug-cartels hideout or something) and got killed. The killer/killers tried at first to get rid of the bodies but then decided to lead the investigators to the idea of being lost in the jungle by planting the backpack next to a village and putting the remains of the bodies far from the trail. Something like that.
 
At that exact moment, I was there in Boquete Panama, backpack traveling with my 15 month old daughter. At the time, all we were told by the hiking tour companies was that there was an ongoing investigation for missing hikers, that it was prohibited and very dangerous to hike that trail, and that they strongly discouraged anyone from going hiking alone anywhere... Back then, I thought it was just a strategy to make money from tourist booking their tours out of fear. Later, I did see yellow police tape at the entrance of the Pianista trail and I felt something unsettling as I looked at the trail when we drove by it.
2 years ago, I stumbled on a documentary regarding what had happened and I was shocked.

Here is a well-made 42 min documentary about what is known. The show host retraces all the steps and clues, interviews an anonymous forensic specialist, and concludes there has been a government cover-up.

Lost in the Wild - Se1 - Ep01 - Hike Into Hell​



For more in-depth details, this blog "Projet Panama" tells about Romain, a young investigator who traveled many times to Boquete to try finding out what really happened. The last entry on that case is from June 2023:
Projet Panama - CamilleG

In this blog entry, there is the detailed autopsy report, as well as many Newspaper copies.
They never found the bodies, only bone fragments: right rib, left pelvis, tibia, right foot.
The entire foot, inside the sock, is inside the shoe, the laces of which are still tight.
Le projet El Pianista : sur les traces des disparues du Panama #2 - CamilleG


In one session, a forum member asked a question:
Q: (Vulcan59) Question by luigi rovatti in the forum: What happened to the Dutch girls Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon who disappeared while hiking the El Pianista trail in Panama on 1st April 2014?

(L) Did they ever find the bodies, or did they just disappear? (Artemis) Hold on, they want to say something.

A: Gone to 5D.
I think everyone knows they are dead (gone to 5D), and when Luigi asked "what happened" he was surely hoping to learn something new about this mystery. Some people's theory is that it was done by Organ Trafficant (Bodies drained, dismembered, then disposed of).

Would it be possible to reframe this question in order to get a more in-depth answer from the C's? Such as:
- Who killed them? (humans or 4D STS or Window Faller)
- Was it premeditated? (were they targeted or simply at the wrong place at the wrong time)
- Did the girls get lost or were they kidnapped? (or they got kidnapped after getting lost)
 
I think everyone knows they are dead (gone to 5D), and when Luigi asked "what happened" he was surely hoping to learn something new about this mystery. Some people's theory is that it was done by Organ Trafficant (Bodies drained, dismembered, then disposed of).

Would it be possible to reframe this question in order to get a more in-depth answer from the C's? Such as:
- Who killed them? (humans or 4D STS or Window Faller)
- Was it premeditated? (were they targeted or simply at the wrong place at the wrong time)
- Did the girls get lost or were they kidnapped? (or they got kidnapped after getting lost)

It is always possible to ask for clarification, and yet for whatever reason the Cs had answered it the way they did - short, gone to 5D.

Happened to go back and view David Paulides talk that @Gwenllian posted (starts at 36:00 min), and David seemed to reason it out the best he could based on evidence to a conclusion that ends with the big question. From what has been learned of some of these types of events - missing and then found dead (notice David mentioned they, or one of them, or someone, was taking photos 7 days after they disappeared, except they were taken in the night (4 am'ish I think), some things just did not make sense. However, maybe in a scenario sometimes pondered, they were taken into different time - no time, as it can be reasoned by 3d. What happened there is anyones guess, yet what was found was as described, and horrible.
 
Just for the record here is a recent article from DM as people are still asking questions. I will also include an image of the article as it shows the different locations where bone fragments and personal belongings were found.

Perhaps the young women were both victims of foul play, but it still doesn't explain the fact that sniffer dogs never picked up a scent. This case still bothers me.:huh:
Lisanne Froon, 22, and Kris Kremers, 21, arrived in Panama airport brimming with excitement.
After months of planning, the two Dutch students set out to hike the famed El Pianista' trail, eager for discovery and adventure.

The trek, which cuts through a dense cloud forest on the slopes of the Baru volcano, was meant to be the highlight of their trip.

But within hours they had vanished, leaving behind one of the most disturbing mysteries of modern travel.

Months later, fragments of their remains were found scattered along a remote river bank deep in the jungle.

Investigators tried to reconstruct the girls' final days through strange photos found on their camera after they disappeared.

But, without clear evidence, speculation flourished, and theories ranging from accidental misadventure to more sinister explanations - such as foul play, kidnapping, or even organ tracking quickly spread.

The women embarked on their excursion on the morning of April 1, 2014.

According to some accounts, they had brunch with two Dutch men before setting off and brought along a dog from a nearby restaurant, IL Pianista, though details vary.

The hike should have taken roughly three hours to complete but the pair had still not returned by nightfall.

Some sources claim the owners of the restaurant raised the alarm when their dog returned home that evening without Kremers and Froon.

Further panic ensued among locals when efforts to contact Kremers' father Hans were unsuccessful and they missed an appointment with a local guide the following day.

The girls' families arrived in Panama on April 6 as a major search operation got underway - with a $30,000 USD reward for anyone could find the women.

Sniffer dogs scoured the rugged landscape for any sign of Froon and Kremers but found no trace.

It would be a further two months before authorities were able to find anything relating to their disappearance.

On June 14, a blue backpack belonging to Froon was found along the Culebra River near Alto Romero, well off the main El Pianista route by a local woman.

Despite Panama's rainy season, the backpack appeared clean and dry, containing $88 in cash, sunglasses, both women's bras, their phones, and Froon's camera.

Locals claimed it had not been there the day before, fueling suspicions. Nearby were Kremers' denim shorts. There are conflicting reports as to whether they were carefully placed on a rock or simply found in disarray remains disputed.

The friends' phones revealed that around six hours into their hike someone tried to ring the emergency services 77 times.

The first distress call attempt was made by Kremers' iPhone 4 at 16:39. Shortly after that, another attempt was made from Froon's Samsung Galaxy S III at 16:51.

None of the calls got through due to lack of reception in the area.

On April 4, Froon's phone battery became exhausted after 05:00 and the phone was never used again.

Between 5 and 11 April, Kremers' iPhone was turned on multiple times but the correct PIN code was never entered again - hinting that she was not the one handling the phone.

The most perplexing clues about what happened in the women's final hours came from from Froon's camera.

Investigators discovered 133 images taken as late as seven days after their disappearance, including 90 taken in pitch darkness during the pre-dawn hours of April 8, 2014.

The majority show little beyond blackness or foliage illuminated by the flash, suggesting the friends were deep in the jungle.

A few images reveal seemingly deliberate arrangements including red plastic on sticks, tissues, a small mirror on a rock, and one image, timestamped 1.49am, which shows the back of Kremers' head.

Previous speculation suggested blood could be seen near her temple, though clearer versions did not confirm an injury.

Adding to the mystery is the missing photo #509: it does not appear in the memory card's file structure, raising questions about whether it was deleted intentionally, corrupted, or never existed in the first place.

Subsequent searches along the river unearthed scattered human remains: a foot in a boot, a piece of a pelvis, and various bone fragments.

DNA matched them to Kremers and Froon.

Puzzingly, while parts of Froon's remains still retained some skin, Kremers' bones appeared 'bleached,' with high phosphorus levels that did not match local soil conditions.

A Panamanian forensic anthropologist noted the absence of cuts or marks on the bones, adding another layer of intrigue.


The minimal remains meant that a cause of death could not be determined, however, the most likely theories suggest the women either suffered an accident or got lost and died of exposure.

But, the unusual photos combined with the bizarre findings sent the conspiracy theory mill into overdrive and sparked suggestions the women had been stalked, kidnapped and murdered while hiking on the trail.

The official investigation shifted stance over time. Panamanian authorities initially classified the case as homicide, then abduction.

By March 2015, however, it was formally closed with the conclusion that both women died in a hiking accident.

Dutch forensic teams thought rugged terrain, 30- to 40-meter cliffs, and swift river currents could explain the condition of the remains.

But, despite the official explanation, the debate over what really happened continues to this day.

Many find aspects of the narrative inconsistent with the physical evidence.

These include the sudden appearance of the backpack, the bleached condition of Kremers' bones, the missing photo #509, and 77 failed emergency calls that suggest a prolonged struggle for survival.


New and often polarizing theories have surfaced in recent years.

Highlighting suspicious details and strange camera images, some investigators believe the women were victims of kidnapping or murder.

They note that the late discovery of their remains - months after large-scale searches- could signal third-party involvement, as could possible tampering with the camera or the staging of belongings
, Medium reports.

Another elaborate theory posits that organ traffickers were informed about the two tourists, leading to abduction on the trail and captivity for several days before the women were killed.

Most researchers consider this scenario extremely unlikely, given the lack of supporting proof.

Many experts still support he official accident explanation, suggesting the pair simply went off-trail, became disoriented, and succumbed to natural hazards.

'We don't know if anybody was involved - we cannot exclude that,' Jürgen Snoeren, co-author of Lost in The Jungle, previously told The Sun.

'We believe the most likely explanation is that they had an accident - but it's not 100 percent.

'The only way to make a full conclusion is when we find the rest of the bodies. I think there should still be remains there in the jungle from the girls. But it's a hell of a job.'

Over the last five years, the public have continued to express an interest in the case.

In 2021, Dutch authors Marja West and Jürgen Snoeren published a book offering new perspectives on the mystery after trawling through police files.

Their work noted unresolved inconsistencies that keep alternative theories alive.

By the 10th anniversary in April 2024, the saga had still not been forgotten.

Advances in forensic methods and persistent amateur investigations prompted calls for reevaluation of bones and digital data.

In September 2023, a documentary reexamining the women's final days and alleged investigative oversights threw the case back into the spotlight - sparking a fresh debate about how evidence was gathered, cataloged, and analyzed.

Throughout these developments, the relatives of Kremers and Froon have stood by the official conclusion of a tragic accident, finding some comfort in closure even as the public's fascination persists.
FWIW.
 

Attachments

I still vouch for asking 1 question to clarify "cause of death". For some reason, many people around the world won't let go of this case; they seek closure. @Gwenllian should I write this in the appropriate member thread?
 
Back
Top Bottom