I'd like for Laura to ask the Cs what happened to the Dutch girls Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon when they disappeared in the Panamian jungle?

[luigi rovatti]

I'm merely saying that a cover-up similar (see videos) to the Panama disappearance happened in the Roswell case. First they said it was a UFO crashed, then it was a weather balloon, then it was project Mogul (might confuse a little). Anyway, the cover-up in the Roswell story hid one of the most astounding secrets of our time. I merely suggested the bad (no question about that) cover-up there happened here.

 

[Gwenllian]

Not to discount a conspiracy, but maybe it's not as it seems. Items turning up "neatly folded", a shoe with a foot in, random bones being found, photos being manipulated and the weather turning bad after they went missing all sound like a classic Missing 411 case.

Absolutely, they were near boulders and water as well and the search dogs never picked up a scent. I recently rewatched some videos about the parents of one of the girls who from the outset had said that something didn't add up, but of course they didn't know what exactly. It was probably a gut feeling? They actually went to Panama and walked the same trail as their daughter did on that fateful day.

Perhaps there is one big advantage here: There was a lot of publicity about this case in Holland and there are many internet sleuths who are interested in this case, so it is a chance for us to learn about 411 cases, just like some articles on SOTT like this one:

Who Killed Noah Donohoe?

I've been following the disturbing and tragic case of Noah Donohoe since it occurred in June of 2020, although admittedly there hasn't been much to follow except the enduring mystery of the 14 year old's last days before the discovery of his body...

www.sott.net

 

[Gwenllian]

In the following video IMO there are snippets to be found that expose the high strangeness of this case. For instance the bras of the girls were also found. Both videos are with English subtitles, BTW.

Here is the Pianista trail Kris's parents walked in order to find some answers. I could be wrong, but that video left me with a strong impression that they were taken from that trail and never walked on as some people speculate. Also, they could have been taken in the afternoon at about 4.30 p.m. (when more 411 Missing cases occur?), because that's when they tried to call the Dutch emergency number. They failed, because they had no reception. It's not surprising that the authorities now claim that it was an accident that killed the girls, but the parents are still questioning this in the video and explain why. It's worth the watch if you would like to know a bit more about this case.

This case also demonstrates how devastating these 411 cases are for friends and family if people don't have any knowledge of Dave Paulides's work for instance, so they will keep wondering till the end of their days what happened to their loved ones.

 

[Gwenllian]

I forgot to mention that a Brit disappeared from the same small town in Panama, called Boquete, 5 years before the two Dutch girls went missing. You can hear about the 29-year-old Alex Humphrey @23.50 minutes and it is in English, since his father was given the opportunity to talk on Dutch TV (unfortunately, it's very short).

I could be wrong, but it seems like another 411 missing case, although none of his belongings or body parts were ever found.

For future reference here are a few articles about the missing Alex. The parts which I found interesting are in bold.

Gill's one-week trip to Panama is not one any parent would relish making. She knows she is unlikely to uncover further clues to Alex's whereabouts, since there have already been extensive searches and press coverage. Alex's brothers, Andrew, 32, and Martin, 34, have spent time in Panama doing national press interviews and working with the search organisation Sinaproc, which has used boat, helicopter and sniffer dogs to hunt for Alex. Nothing so far has been found. [...]

"It's very difficult, because every hypothesis we come up with has been shot down. If he had been kidnapped, there would be a ransom demand. And Sinaproc says that if there had been a mugging that went wrong, the muggers would be unlikely to hang around to get rid of the body. The explanation I find easiest to live with is that Alex has wandered off the tourist trail and has had an accident, slipped or tripped. But Sinaproc feel this is also unlikely because by now he would have been discovered.

That's the conclusion the authorities have come up with in the case of Lisanne and Kris, only because they found a few bones and some items of clothing.

Alex's mum called Gill might know deep down that something really strange has happened to her son:

"If I believed in UFOs, I'd say there has been an alien abduction – but I don't believe in them and I don't know what else to think. There is just no trace, and I have no idea what has happened."

From another article (Denver Humphrey is Alex's dad):

So the family is left to speculate about what happened to the youngest son, including the possibility he was abducted by organ traffickers.

“Bodies turn up if nature claims them,” Denver said. “If it’s a drowning, the body will wash up. If somebody comes to an end in a jungle, the natives who know every inch of it will find them.

“But there’s been no body, no ransom note. His passport and credit cards were in his room. No theft was involved.

“We heard of a south American girl who went missing nearby and her body was found with no organs. It’s a theory that fits.”

Sounds like a Missing 411 case to me. Why would smugglers leave her body for other people to find?

There is something else I'd like to mention, but I can't find the comment which was underneath one of the YT videos about the Dutch girls which said that the natives in that area know about these high strangeness/missing 411 cases. David Paulides said the same thing once, but so far I haven't seen any follow-up video about this, although he was planning to talk to some natives about all these missing people.

 

[mkrnhr]

From the information available, one likely scenario is that they got lost, stumbled upon something (like a drug-cartels hideout or something) and got killed. The killer/killers tried at first to get rid of the bodies but then decided to lead the investigators to the idea of being lost in the jungle by planting the backpack next to a village and putting the remains of the bodies far from the trail. Something like that.

 

[meadow_wind]

At that exact moment, I was there in Boquete Panama, backpack traveling with my 15 month old daughter. At the time, all we were told by the hiking tour companies was that there was an ongoing investigation for missing hikers, that it was prohibited and very dangerous to hike that trail, and that they strongly discouraged anyone from going hiking alone anywhere... Back then, I thought it was just a strategy to make money from tourist booking their tours out of fear. Later, I did see yellow police tape at the entrance of the Pianista trail and I felt something unsettling as I looked at the trail when we drove by it.
2 years ago, I stumbled on a documentary regarding what had happened and I was shocked.

Here is a well-made 42 min documentary about what is known. The show host retraces all the steps and clues, interviews an anonymous forensic specialist, and concludes there has been a government cover-up.

Lost in the Wild - Se1 - Ep01 - Hike Into Hell​

For more in-depth details, this blog "Projet Panama" tells about Romain, a young investigator who traveled many times to Boquete to try finding out what really happened. The last entry on that case is from June 2023:
Projet Panama - CamilleG

In this blog entry, there is the detailed autopsy report, as well as many Newspaper copies.
They never found the bodies, only bone fragments: right rib, left pelvis, tibia, right foot.
The entire foot, inside the sock, is inside the shoe, the laces of which are still tight.
Le projet El Pianista : sur les traces des disparues du Panama #2 - CamilleG


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Session 30 October 2021

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Q: (Vulcan59) Question by luigi rovatti in the forum: What happened to the Dutch girls Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon who disappeared while hiking the El Pianista trail in Panama on 1st April 2014?

(L) Did they ever find the bodies, or did they just disappear? (Artemis) Hold on, they want to say something.

A: Gone to 5D.

I think everyone knows they are dead (gone to 5D), and when Luigi asked "what happened" he was surely hoping to learn something new about this mystery. Some people's theory is that it was done by Organ Trafficant (Bodies drained, dismembered, then disposed of).

Would it be possible to reframe this question in order to get a more in-depth answer from the C's? Such as:
- Who killed them? (humans or 4D STS or Window Faller)
- Was it premeditated? (were they targeted or simply at the wrong place at the wrong time)
- Did the girls get lost or were they kidnapped? (or they got kidnapped after getting lost)

 

[Voyageur]

I think everyone knows they are dead (gone to 5D), and when Luigi asked "what happened" he was surely hoping to learn something new about this mystery. Some people's theory is that it was done by Organ Trafficant (Bodies drained, dismembered, then disposed of).

Would it be possible to reframe this question in order to get a more in-depth answer from the C's? Such as:
- Who killed them? (humans or 4D STS or Window Faller)
- Was it premeditated? (were they targeted or simply at the wrong place at the wrong time)
- Did the girls get lost or were they kidnapped? (or they got kidnapped after getting lost)

It is always possible to ask for clarification, and yet for whatever reason the Cs had answered it the way they did - short, gone to 5D.

Happened to go back and view David Paulides talk that @Gwenllian posted (starts at 36:00 min), and David seemed to reason it out the best he could based on evidence to a conclusion that ends with the big question. From what has been learned of some of these types of events - missing and then found dead (notice David mentioned they, or one of them, or someone, was taking photos 7 days after they disappeared, except they were taken in the night (4 am'ish I think), some things just did not make sense. However, maybe in a scenario sometimes pondered, they were taken into different time - no time, as it can be reasoned by 3d. What happened there is anyones guess, yet what was found was as described, and horrible.