Gulags in China?

My initial response to the covid-19 hysteria was that it was a set-up to bring China down.

That was my first initial assessment. also, that the Coronavirus was being orchestrated by the Pentagon as a "soft-coup-biowar" against China. When other Countries began pulling their citizen's and Embassy Staff out of China and the American press pundits were 24/7 building up the narrative of China being "out of control" with a lock down in Wuhan and quarantines, along with WHO screaming to get in and monitor the spread of the Covid -19, I seriously had the feeling that the Pentagon and NATO allied forces were going to attempt to invade China?

After months and months of arranging a ceasefire and Peace Plan with the Taliban and the U.S. in Afghanistan ... all of a sudden, just as Covid-19 got a grip in Wuhan, there's going to be a Peace deal in Afghan, attended personally by Pompeo and Esper. Reuters went real heavy on the reporting. Additional reporting has Pompeo and Esper still in Afghan supervising a suppose Troop withdrawal, along with a prisoner exchange with the Taliban. There's a feeling - something is "up"? There has been a Military Troop build up in the Middle East and NATO affiliated Countries in Europe since early last Fall.

During this same time frame, Turkey's Erdogan moved thousands more Troops and tanks into Syria, hoping to secure Idlib, in a land grab for himself. He's attacking Syrian, Iranian and Russian Troops, along with shooting down planes and destroying missile defense installations. With all the meetings between Turkey and Russia, I get the feeling - Erdogan is running "interference" keeping Russia distracted? Over-all, there's a feeling that something big is in the works and it's a toss-up, if it will be a rush to invade Russia or China?
MUNICH -- U.S. Defence Secretary Mark Esper on Saturday cast China as a rising threat to world order -- saying the world's most populous nation steals Western know-how, intimidates smaller neighbors and seeks an "advantage by any means and at any cost."

A frequent critic of China, Esper
used an address to an international security conference in Munich, Germany, to give his most comprehensive condemnation yet of a communist country that he said tops the Pentagon's list of potential adversaries, followed by Russia, "rogue states" like North Korea and Iran, and continuing threats from extremist groups.

Esper is a new comer to this game of Regime Change but even when Pompeo was CIA Director, there was a push by the Pentagon for a "Color Revolution" inside China. It may be that China is the main target now, not Iran? As for the Gulags in China, it boils down to fake news. In this article, it goes into detail on what is behind the media hype of the Uyghur's and the Gulags.

Inside the World Uyghur Congress: The US-backed right-wing regime change network seeking the ‘fall of China’
Inside the World Uyghur Congress: The US-backed right-wing regime change network seeking the ‘fall of China’

March 5, 2020 -
While posing as a grassroots human rights organization, the World Uyghur Congress is a US-funded and directed separatist network that has forged alliances with far-right ethno-nationalist groups. The goal spelled out by its founders is clear: the destabilization of China and regime change in Beijing.

A central gear in Washington’s new Cold War against China, this network has a long history of relationships with the US national security state and far-right ultra-nationalists.

At the heart of this movement is the World Uyghur Congress (WUC), an international Uyghur organization that claims to be engaged in a “peaceful, nonviolent, and democratic” struggle for “human rights.” The WUC considers China’s northwestern Xinjiang region to be East Turkestan, and sees its Uyghur Muslim inhabitants not as Chinese citizens but instead as members of a pan-Turkic nation stretching from Central Asia to Turkey.

As this investigation establishes, the WUC is not a grassroots movement, but a US government-backed umbrella for several Washington-based outfits that also rely heavily on US funding and direction. Today, it is the main face and voice of a separatist operation dedicated to destabilizing the Xinjiang region of China and ultimately toppling the Chinese government.

While seeking to orchestrate a color revolution with the aim of regime change in Beijing, the WUC and its offshoots have forged ties with the Grey Wolves, a far-right Turkish organization that has been actively engaged in sectarian violence from Syria to East Asia.

[...] Established in 1998, the Uyghur American Association (UAA) is a Washington D.C.-based affiliate of the WUC. A long time grantee of the NED, the UAA has received millions of dollars in funding. According to its publicly available tax filings, the group works closely with the US government, particularly the US State Department, Congressional-Executive Commission on China (CECC), and US Congress’s Human Rights Commission.

[...] Other leading representatives of WUC have vocally endorsed Turkish military interventionism. The political statements of Seyit Tümturk, who served as WUC Vice President, underscore the extremist and militant politics behind WUC’s carefully cultivated image as a “peaceful and nonviolent” human rights organization.

In 2018, Tümturk declared that Chinese Uyghurs view Turkish “state requests as orders.” He then proclaimed that hundreds of thousands of Chinese Uyghurs were ready to enlist in the Turkish army and join Turkey’s illegal and brutal invasion of Northern Syria “to fight for God” – if ordered to do so by Erdogan.

Shortly after Tumturk’s comments, Uyghur militants dressed in Turkish military fatigues and on the Turkish side of the Syrian border released a video in which they threatened to wage war against China:
 
In more than one of the previous posts there were reports that women who had been in re-education camps had reduced fertility and had received injections. Perhaps what was tried out is related to this:
In our article Abortion-causing Vaccines Openly Promoted in Pro-Vaxx Circles, we showed the push for vaccines that cause spontaneous abortions in the name of population control. In this article, we cover how such vaccinations have been reportedly used — covertly — around the world. We will begin with a fairly recent incident in Kenya.
And as a general comment to this thread, it is a bit ironic that so many parts of the world are doing very well implementing measures that until recently was associated with China. I'm thinking of lockdown and laws that prohibit people from assembling together, laws that allow the governments to force vaccinate their population, surveillance of behaviour and movement.
 
I don't think need to write much, so I will leave only a little part of the report

Tursunay Ziawudun spent nine months inside China's vast and secretive system of internment camps in the Xinjiang region. According to independent estimates, more than a million men and women have been detained in the sprawling network of camps, which China says exist for the "re-education" of the Uighurs and other minorities.

Their goal is to destroy everyone': Uighur camp detainees allege systematic rape (by BBC)
 
Hi Border Dog, I wouldn't say the BBC is a credible source of information. Their covering of the Syrian conflict, Russia, the covid "pandemic" or Trump's presidency have always been biased and full of agenda pushing for the PTB.

The Western media have been trying to portray Uyghur as innocent victims of the evil Chinese regime, but that's largely politically and economically motivated anti-China propaganda. The accounts of the victims are truly horrifying and I do think it's likely there is a dose of truth in those reports. I agree that such things should not happen. But Western troops have been committing similar, if not much worse, atrocities in the countries they've invaded too. So in the article you liked a Western media source points their finger at exactly the same crimes the West commits. That's not balanced or unbiased reporting to me. Also, the article you linked fails to mention Chinese Uyghurs' links to ISIS in Syria for example.

As you can see, your post has now been moved to this forum thread dedicated to Uyghur camps. The discussion here offers a much more balanced analysis than the BBC article you provided. If the topic interests you it would be useful to read the entire thread.

You may find the below SOTT articles to be informative too:

 
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Western media have been trying to portray Uyghur as innocent victims of the evil Chinese regime, but that's largely politically and economically motivated anti-China propaganda.

Hi Ant22, thank you very much the "balanced" info and links.

I'm relatively vaccinated to biases and opinions, focusing only on content information.

Based on what you informed, it is possible to assume that this BBC report is Rehashed Information, as the video with the Gulags (you linked) was posted in 2019.

In this way, they "repeat" old content as if it were new, and thus do the propaganda they want again.

This is typical of the "Scissors Strategy" -- two partners "combine accusations", where "the good one" of today becomes "the villain" of tomorrow because unproven charges, and vice versa, and so on, and on ..

Negative propagandas gets more attention and promotes both much more than the positives, besides spreading "fear".

---

PS - thanks to mods, which merged my previous post to this (Gulag) thread.
 
I don't think China should get a pass on their 'reeducation' camps that imprison an entire population just because the US and Western forces see China as a threat to their hegemony. I think both China and the US deserve their fair share of criticism, and it is possible to do both at the same time. I think it's probably necessary too. The US obviously deserves great attention as its global organs steer much of the world's totalitarian trends, but I don't think China gets a pass here either. One of the interesting things is that China is basically a huge success when it comes to the stabilization of a pathological state, and specifically I mean in the social acceptance of full political control over its people and the integration of State ideology into life at the family level. We can see the movers and shakers working on implementing this model all over the world now in various forms.
 
I don't think China should get a pass on their 'reeducation' camps that imprison an entire population just because the US and Western forces see China as a threat to their hegemony.
If those camps were in the West, we'd be calling it what it is - prison camps. China calling them "voluntary vocational centers" is just Orwellian doublespeak. I thought the below article published on SOTT was a really well balanced take on the China/Uighur issue, and the editorial comments also added a lot of food for thought for me.


Essentially, the CCP is not engaging in genocide like the US claims but they are detaining millions of free people in their fight to control the radicalization of the Uighurs and likely committing human rights abuses. They should not escape criticism for that.
 
I don't think China should get a pass on their 'reeducation' camps that imprison an entire population just because the US and Western forces see China as a threat to their hegemony. I think both China and the US deserve their fair share of criticism, and it is possible to do both at the same time. I think it's probably necessary too. The US obviously deserves great attention as its global organs steer much of the world's totalitarian trends, but I don't think China gets a pass here either. One of the interesting things is that China is basically a huge success when it comes to the stabilization of a pathological state, and specifically I mean in the social acceptance of full political control over its people and the integration of State ideology into life at the family level. We can see the movers and shakers working on implementing this model all over the world now in various forms.
Agreed.

Re: the BBC article, I think it's highly probable that those accounts are untrustworthy. Moon of Alabama had a blog recently tracking some of those women's public testimony over time, and their accounts have changed. (I leave open the possibility that they left certain parts out for whatever reason in early accounts, but if that's the case, unfortunately they discredit themselves by changing the substance of their testimony over time.) I think a lot of the atrocity-type accounts are exaggerated and/or fabricated to one degree or another. All that said, I still think reeducation camps in principle, and the Uighur camps specifically, are evil. (Exaggerated atrocity stories exist for the gulag and the Nazi concentration camps, but evil/sick stuff was still the norm in both.)

Anti-terrorism is only one reason among many for their existence, and probably a small one at that. There haven't been any terror attacks in China for the past four years - chalked up as a 'success' of the reeducation/detention policy. In 2017 two things happened: the camps were put into operation, and thousands of Uighur jihadists went to Syria. Just like Chechnya and Dagestan, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the hardcore jihadists shipped out to Syria, where they were either killed, or are still holed up in Idlib. So the camps may not be as effective as the government would want everyone to believe. Plus, like it says in the article Beau posted, Xi thinks the current policies need to continue for a "long time." (Contrast with Chechnya - Putin didn't create reeducation camps, he allied with an ex-militant and rebuilt the place after the war.) Anti-terrorism is a cover for what they really want: euphemistically called "transformation through education."

While I don't trust a lot of the details of accounts, there are many others that are constant, and supported by documentation. The criteria for a term in the camps is very arbitrary, and behaviors that shouldn't be criminal anywhere are criminalized. Sometimes parents get put away for a year, two, or more, and their children get put in state-run orphanages. The surveillance state is off the charts - cameras everywhere, regular checkpoints where the police download all data on your phones, extra attention if you've had contact with relatives in other countries (or any other foreigner), apps for informing on others, close surveillance upon serving one's term (plus family members), regular visits from local cadres or police, etc.

This Intercept article is worth reading, IMO: Millions of Leaked Police Files Detail Suffocating Surveillance of China’s Uyghur Minority

Extra creepy is that they are using AI to direct surveillance.
 
I don't think China should get a pass on their 'reeducation' camps that imprison an entire population just because the US and Western forces see China as a threat to their hegemony.
Essentially, the CCP is not engaging in genocide like the US claims but they are detaining millions of free people in their fight to control the radicalization of the Uighurs and likely committing human rights abuses. They should not escape criticism for that.
Agreed, they absolutely shouldn't get a pass for that. But when it's a western source that shouts "genocide in China!" while the west has the same sins on their conscience I can't help but expand the context. Maybe the conversational habit of including Obama's and Bush' sins whenever Trump's failures are mentioned, or including flu deaths whenever covid deaths are quoted, has taken its toll on my ability to zoom in on a particular issue.

One of the interesting things is that China is basically a huge success when it comes to the stabilization of a pathological state, and specifically I mean in the social acceptance of full political control over its people and the integration of State ideology into life at the family level. We can see the movers and shakers working on implementing this model all over the world now in various forms.
I guess I may have given an impression of down playing the existence of those camps in China, I certainly don't think the fact that they exist isn't a problem. Especially that, like Renaissance said, the west is clearly pushing to adopt similar techniques on its own soil. Take the reports of people being taken away to undisclosed locations to quarantine for covid upon arriving in Canada for example.

Not to mention that I certainly wouldn't like to be forced to take collective responsibility for my entire ethnic group.

This Intercept article is worth reading, IMO: Millions of Leaked Police Files Detail Suffocating Surveillance of China’s Uyghur Minority

Extra creepy is that they are using AI to direct surveillance

Speaking of AI and surveillance, this Chinese commercial was apparently created to demonstrate the benefits of 5G in combating crime:

 
If those camps were in the West, we'd be calling it what it is - prison camps. China calling them "voluntary vocational centers" is just Orwellian doublespeak. I thought the below article published on SOTT was a really well balanced take on the China/Uighur issue, and the editorial comments also added a lot of food for thought for me.


Essentially, the CCP is not engaging in genocide like the US claims but they are detaining millions of free people in their fight to control the radicalization of the Uighurs and likely committing human rights abuses. They should not escape criticism for that.
I tend to give the Chinese government the benefit of the doubt.

I think they take defeating terrorism (and 'national unity') seriously, unlike Western powers which assist or leverage terrorism in order to sustain and entrench themselves, while dividing/ruling all below them.

Lord knows they'd do worse to go the French route: bring in millions of Muslims, place zero requirements on them to integrate, provide them with welfare, ship their 'warriors' to and from Syria, and let them effectively self-rule in urban 'autonomous zones'.
 
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I tend to give the Chinese government the benefit of the doubt.

I think they take defeating terrorism (and 'national unity') seriously, unlike Western powers which assist or leverage terrorism in order to sustain and entrench themselves, while dividing/ruling all below them.

Lord knows they'd do worse to go the French route: bring in millions of Muslims, place zero requirements on them to integrate, provide them with welfare, ship their 'warriors' to and from Syria, and let them effectively self-rule in urban 'autonomous zones'.
It's as if the Chinese represent Order and the French (and/or the U.S.) represent Chaos. But too much of one in either direction without an ability to understand and balance the two is a recipe for disaster of different kinds, though. People don't like chaos because there are too many unknowns and variables although you effectively have more 'freedom', which also includes the 'freedom' to set yourself up as a warlord and tyrant and terrorize the local population. In situation's like that it's understandable why people would clamber for a benevolent ruler or government to come in and bring order and rule of law so you can live your life in relative peace.

But it seems the problem with the Chinese is that even if their intentions are noble, and I don't know what goes on through the minds of Xi or the top party members in the CCP to say they are or aren't, they are ushering in a form of control and monitoring of their people at an almost unheard of level in order to maintain this order. I sometimes wonder what role hyper-density is playing in all of this and whether the inevitable fall of the US will bring about this New World Order based on the Chinese 'model', who are leading the charge when it comes to showing the rest of the world what it means to really control the population. Even the 'inspiration' by Western countries to lock down their citizens came from seeing China do it first.
 
Agreed, they absolutely shouldn't get a pass for that. But when it's a western source that shouts "genocide in China!" while the west has the same sins on their conscience I can't help but expand the context. Maybe the conversational habit of including Obama's and Bush' sins whenever Trump's failures are mentioned, or including flu deaths whenever covid deaths are quoted, has taken its toll on my ability to zoom in on a particular issue.
Sometimes I agree, sometimes I disagree. :lol: When it's in the context of U.S. media or governments criticizing China, I can't help but be put off by the hypocrisy. On the other hand, most of the times I hear this done, it is by starry-eyed China supporters either outright denying anything bad is happening, or tacitly admitting it but downplaying/justifying it at the same time. I think it's possible to take a wider, nuanced view. To put it in a very un-nuanced form: The bad stuff the West does is bad. The bad stuff China does is bad. The West's hypocrisy when criticizing China is shameless. China's hypocrisy when criticizing the West is shameless (e.g., using critical race theory, criticizing Western censorship). They're each reprehensible in their own ways.
Speaking of AI and surveillance, this Chinese commercial was apparently created to demonstrate the benefits of 5G in combating crime:

Black Mirror was not supposed to be an instruction manual!
I tend to give the Chinese government the benefit of the doubt.

I think they take defeating terrorism (and 'national unity') seriously, unlike Western powers which assist or leverage terrorism in order to sustain and entrench themselves, while dividing/ruling all below them.
When defeating terrorism entails mass arbitrary detention, hyperpolicing, a massive surveillance state, social credit, and destroying ancient architecture, that's about 5 red lines too far for me.
Lord knows they'd do worse to go the French route: bring in millions of Muslims, place zero requirements on them to integrate, provide them with welfare, ship their 'warriors' to and from Syria, and let them effectively self-rule in urban 'autonomous zones'.
I don't think there are only two options. And if these were somehow the only two options, they're both bad ones. Again, I think Russia has done a much better job (but I'm guessing even their approach hasn't been perfect).
It's as if the Chinese represent Order and the French (and/or the U.S.) represent Chaos. But too much of one in either direction without an ability to understand and balance the two is a recipe for disaster of different kinds, though. People don't like chaos because there are too many unknowns and variables although you effectively have more 'freedom', which also includes the 'freedom' to set yourself up as a warlord and tyrant and terrorize the local population. In situation's like that it's understandable why people would clamber for a benevolent ruler or government to come in and bring order and rule of law so you can live your life in relative peace.
Well put. Reminds me of this brief exchange from the last sessions:
(Joe) It's mostly in the West. That's a good question. Why are so many of the strongest control measures being imposed in Europe and America and other Western countries?

A: They were weakened by "good times" and "freedom" that permits the flourishing of pathology.

Q: (L) So in other words, when you have real freedom...

(Joe) It weakens the people and it also creates a climate where the greediest have a free lunch so to speak. Those in power become greedier and greedier.

(Niall) Does that mean people in places like East Asia may escape much of this?

A: Partly.

Q: (L) I'd say they're a little bit overbalanced in the other direction. It's a real problem. It's a thorny issue that always returns, again and again and again. It's cyclical.
But it seems the problem with the Chinese is that even if their intentions are noble, and I don't know what goes on through the minds of Xi or the top party members in the CCP to say they are or aren't, they are ushering in a form of control and monitoring of their people at an almost unheard of level in order to maintain this order. I sometimes wonder what role hyper-density is playing in all of this and whether the inevitable fall of the US will bring about this New World Order based on the Chinese 'model', who are leading the charge when it comes to showing the rest of the world what it means to really control the population. Even the 'inspiration' by Western countries to lock down their citizens came from seeing China do it first.
I'm open to noble intentions, but doubtful. Strikes me as technocratic arrogance to the extreme. Looking at China's recent history with ponerology in mind (Mao's years, followed by Deng's undoing of a large part of Mao's pathological egotism, but which I doubt reversed the essentially pathocratic nature of the new social and Party structure), this strikes me as a pretty good description of where China is at the moment:
And so, with the above considerations being brought to the forefront of pathocratic attention, this great societal disease continues to run its course through a new phase: methods of activity become milder, and there is coexistence with countries whose structure is that of normal man.

Any psychopathologist studying this phenomenon will be reminded of the dissimulative state or phase of a patient attempting to play the role of a normal person, hiding his pathological reality although he continues to be sick or abnormal. Let us therefore use the term “the dissimulative phase of pathocracy” for the state of affairs wherein a pathocratic system ever more skillfully plays the role of a normal sociopolitical system with “different” doctrinal institutions.
 
In the absence of satisfactory evidence, I tend to give the Chinese govt the benefit of the doubt.

I think they take defeating terrorism (and 'national unity') seriously, unlike Western powers which assist or leverage terrorism in order to sustain and entrench themselves, while dividing/ruling all below them.

I'd say there is an enforcement of state control, which Chinese leadership calls a promotion of cultural or national unity. Mao is said to have had the most comprehensive linguistic engineering program of any totalitarian regime, and it's use can still be seen today in reference to Greater China and other propaganda. China has essentially sought to abolish actual human and naturally flawed culture in favor of deference toward the State and the materialistic production that maintains their system. Maoism can be seen as an essential element of current Chinese governance, even if it has been refined.

The Chinese response to the Uyghurs and other minority groups are good examples of how Mao's Cultural Revolution lives on today. The 'revolutionary' tactics of wiping out language, traditions, ancestry, religion, and intellectual discourse have all been used against the Uyghurs. Their mosques and cemeteries have been destroyed, their intellectuals disappeared into camps, their language banned in schools, the practice of Islam declared as extremism and made illegal, and so on. I don't think this is just about extremism. I think they are using a handful of instances of extremism to try and wipe out a culture, the spirit of a people, so they can establish state control. The Xinjiang conflict actually goes back to the resistance against Mao's revolution, which was pretty understandable. In the larger scope, China is very much a collectivist assimilator. Seems to me they want to contain a region that has both a bit of human spirit and pathological elements that react to overt controls.

I certainly agree that the US and the West in general doesn't have any business interfering in their domestic, regional, or geopolitical relationships, but I also think it's useful to see it for what it is without their propagandistic filters.

I'd also just add that I agree with AI's reference to the "dissimulative phase of pathocracy" in relation to China and the CCP. They are a stabilized form of Mao's egotistic control where they have already gone through the phases of chaos and actual genocide to establish widely accepted state control.
 
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In the absence of satisfactory evidence, I tend to give the Chinese govt the benefit of the doubt.

I think they take defeating terrorism (and 'national unity') seriously, unlike Western powers which assist or leverage terrorism in order to sustain and entrench themselves, while dividing/ruling all below them.

Lord knows they'd do worse to go the French route: bring in millions of Muslims, place zero requirements on them to integrate, provide them with welfare, ship their 'warriors' to and from Syria, and let them effectively self-rule in urban 'autonomous zones'.
I guess the question is what's happening at the reeducation camps. Are people being forced to go into those camps? Are there human rights abuses occurring there? No one knows because the Chinese keep such a tight lid on information. We have to take the word of a state government, something that I am not too keen on. The idea that the CCP is educating millions of Chinese strictly from a place of benevolence is hard for me to swallow.
 
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Their mosques and cemeteries have been destroyed, their intellectuals disappeared into camps, their language banned in schools, the practice of Islam declared as extremism and made illegal, and so on. I don't think this is just about extremism. I think they are using a handful of instances of extremism to try and wipe out a culture, the spirit of a people, so they can establish state control.

Is this meant to be unusual or something, given the context in which this is happening? In a lot of comments on this topic there seems to be more than a liberal dash of Western naivety and lack of awareness of how the world actually works and has worked for a long time, and by 'world' I mean ALL of it. I could use an analogy that might at first glance appear facetious, but is, IMO, pretty close to the core issue here. The analogy is: "I saw a nature documentary recently where a lion attacked and ate an impala that was silly enough to walk into the pride's territory. I think that's immoral."

Fair enough, you can call it immoral, but I think it's a bit naive to think that it's something unusual or stands out from normal affairs.
 
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