Gulags in China?

[Mike]

Basically all the “villages”, due to knowledge act and do the same, there by the pattern is repeated. I think that’s what Mike is alluding to, where the pattern can be “up-scaled” like a fractal.

I missed the window for 'edit added'. I like the idea of the fractal in terms of how local governments/communities could pass on what really works and successful practices "up-scaled", probably pretty quickly, to other places due to instant communications and the possibility of near instant networking being available in our current day.

 

[Oxajil]

Well as always the devil is in the details. For example, twitter is blocked for all Chinese citizens unless you have special permission from the government. SO I call BS on china not being up to some shenanigans.

What's devil-in-detailsy about Twitter being blocked for citizens? You can still use it if you know how. There are good reasons why countries such as China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. don't like Twitter. Regarding my post, my understanding is that Twitter closed their account, not the Chinese govt.

 

[neema]

What's devil-in-detailsy about Twitter being blocked for citizens? You can still use it if you know how. There are good reasons why countries such as China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. don't like Twitter. Regarding my post, my understanding is that Twitter closed their account, not the Chinese govt.

Hey Oxajil.

Let me try and clarify what I’m getting at. In china most western social platforms are banned. It is also illegal to use a VPN. Sure some use it at the risk of arrest, but they do it very quietly. China does give “special” accounts that belong to CCP members and their families as a form of soft power to project a narrative to western countries. But it is highly controlled and scripted. It is almost a joke that some random Chinese citizens could legally use twitter in a public way without the blessing and approval of the central government.

Maybe if we have some Chinese members living in china could chime in on this thread and explain it in more detail.

Point is that china is doing some things to combat Muslim extremism. It may not be genocide but I’m sure it is not something that the population of Xinjiang accepts voluntary and with open arms. So it’s in the interest of china to try and minimize the negative parts of their actions while using western social platforms to divert from those negative actions. In short they are being disingenuous though on a smaller scale compared to their western counterparts.

IMHO all countries of this world at their upper echelons are psychopathic. They may have different styles and degrees but we must not give a pass to one side just because they are a rival of western psychopaths.

Hope that makes more sense.

 

[Oxajil]

Hi neema, thanks for elaborating. My thoughts:

Let me try and clarify what I’m getting at. In china most western social platforms are banned. It is also illegal to use a VPN. Sure some use it at the risk of arrest, but they do it very quietly.

I don't think they arrest anyone using a VPN (I'm not a techie, so I don't know if it's even possible to know). I also don't see a problem with Western social platforms being banned. They have replacements for each social platform in their own language.

China does give “special” accounts that belong to CCP members and their families as a form of soft power to project a narrative to western countries. But it is highly controlled and scripted.

Scripted? I don't think there's proof of that. I don't know if it's true that only certain people are given access, but even if that's the case, would you not try to counter false news about your country on that platform for those who are interested to hear what the other side has to say? I think it makes sense.

It is almost a joke that some random Chinese citizens could legally use twitter in a public way without the blessing and approval of the central government.

Maybe they could get arrested if they use their name and address in their bio and start spreading disinformatin, I dunno, but I think if they're interested to use Twitter, there are ways to access it.

Point is that china is doing some things to combat Muslim extremism. It may not be genocide but I’m sure it is not something that the population of Xinjiang accepts voluntary and with open arms. So it’s in the interest of china to try and minimize the negative parts of their actions while using western social platforms to divert from those negative actions. In short they are being disingenuous though on a smaller scale compared to their western counterparts.

In case you missed it, this is what the C's said: Link

If there's a viral story going on about the torture of people spread by MSM, first thing to do would be to question it, to consider the geopolitical situation and motives for spreading this, and reports from independent journalists who actually have been in that region. MSM don't care about innocent people being tortured or dying or suffering. That story is created only to put China in a bad light. The reality is likely that they're only imprisoning those who are "extremely radicalized".

IMHO all countries of this world at their upper echelons are psychopathic. They may have different styles and degrees but we must not give a pass to one side just because they are a rival of western psychopaths.

Hope that makes more sense.

It's not giving a pass, but to try to view each situation as objectively as possible. The situation in this case being whether the Chinese govt is doing unacceptable/unethical things to Uyghur Muslims, which very likely is not the case. This Chinese journalist posts interesting tweets about Uyghur Muslims and other Muslims in China, things you won't hear or read about in the MSM! FWIW.

 

[neema]

Hi neema, thanks for elaborating. My thoughts:

Thanks for the thought provoking response Oxajil. I'm really enjoying the process of trying to clarify my perspective on the matter.

I don't think they arrest anyone using a VPN (I'm not a techie, so I don't know if it's even possible to know).

They will as an excuse. Just like most large bureaucratic governments there are multiple laws that citizens happen to break. The point is that if you question the government they can use the excuse of using an illegal VPN to officially charge you. Technically your ISP can see when you are using a VPN. In China the majority of the companies are run or connected somehow to the state.

I also don't see a problem with Western social platforms being banned. They have replacements for each social platform in their own language.

It becomes a problem when all criticism of the government is stifled and only opinions that shows the government in good light is amplified. Recent examples are the devastating floods in China and their handling by their government. Here is an article summarizing one incident.

Scripted? I don't think there's proof of that.

That’s why I originally said that it’s in the details. If you pay attention to the multiple videos that pop up talking about the population of Xinjiang, the up-loaders are very recent bloggers. The background of the videos are repeated for most of these so called citizen videos. Most of them even use the same background crowd. The talking points on the videos are verbatim the talking points of the official Chinese government.

It's very suspect that some random farmer in rural china that happens to be in the Xinjiang region knows who Mike Pompeo is, let alone what Pompeo said and have the same talking points as the official Chinese narrative. Complete with exactly the same grammar errors and all.

Maybe they could get arrested if they use their name and address in their bio and start spreading disinformatin, I dunno, but I think if they're interested to use Twitter, there are ways to access it.

I have had many years of dealing with China and the Chinese people. Almost all are very conformists. As with most Asian countries the people don’t like to rock the boat in any form. So if you are familiar with the culture you would see how this type of western behavior is unusual to say the least.

but even if that's the case, would you not try to counter false news about your country on that platform for those who are interested to hear what the other side has to say?

Hell no!
Let’s use the example of Iran. There are so many lies about the government of Iran by the west its uncountable. Though there is no genocide in Iran either, that doesn’t mean that the government is not insufferable to its people. As a normal citizen living in Iran I would never try to counter false news about Iran. Why would I come to the defense of my daily abusers?

It’s pretty obvious to me anyway, that the psychopathic elite of each country use the propaganda of the rival psychopathic elite in other countries to justify their abuse of their own citizens.

In case you missed it, this is what the C's said: Link

Yes, I’m aware of what the C’s said on the matter. But as we all know by now the C’s answers can over time have slightly different meaning then was originally interpreted. Not saying that is happening in this case but we shouldn’t lose sight of that fact either.

If there's a viral story going on about the torture of people spread by MSM, first thing to do would be to question it, to consider the geopolitical situation and motives for spreading this, and reports from independent journalists who actually have been in that region. MSM don't care about innocent people being tortured or dying or suffering. That story is created only to put China in a bad light. The reality is likely that they're only imprisoning those who are "extremely radicalized".

I don’t disagree about any of what you have said, but from my perspective I see all this as gamesmanship in the war of the psychopaths against normal humans. It’s all divide and conquer tactics designed to rally citizens around their disingenuous governments, on both sides.
I mean come now, you don’t think the Chinese government is capable of creating their own propaganda by sending “their own independent” journalists to the region to paint a particular picture?

It's not giving a pass, but to try to view each situation as objectively as possible.

Couldn’t agree more that’s exactly why I am bringing up the points that I have made so far.

The situation in this case being whether the Chinese govt is doing unacceptable/unethical things to Uyghur Muslims, which very likely is not the case.

Well like I said before they are being exaggerated, but I also think when there is smoke there is probably fire.

This Chinese journalist posts interesting tweets about Uyghur Muslims and other Muslims in China, things you won't hear or read about in the MSM,

Of course you won’t here about it on the MSM. But that also doesn’t automatically make it the truth either. Just quickly looking at the top video in the link, she is shooting footage at a very similar location as to almost all other videos of this nature. You mean to tell me there are no other locations in all of Xinjiang?

I don’t know my BS meter is still going off.
Perhaps the only way for us to know for sure would be a visit to the region!

We could go together and report back! Are you interested?

To bad china would not allow it, which in itself is suspect.