Gulags in China?

Hello H2O

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
From the article,


To accomplish its goals, the British government wants to increase defense spending by £24 billion ($33.3 billion) over the next four years, a large increase on the £42.2 billion it spent in 2019-2020.
The government also pledged tens of billions of pounds in investment in other areas, including £15 billion for research and development for science and technology, more than £17 billion to fight climate change and promote biodiversity, and £13 billion in the fight against the coronavirus.

To maintain the status quo, it is necessary to divert massive amounts of funds to these imaginary or concocted threats. I think a lot of time is spent on how to manufacture stuff to throw money at, so that real problems and issues are never solved or even dealt with. Certainly a major page from the playbook.

You can see how the manufactured nonsense against China is used to create policy. And that policy has nothing to do with concern over a supposed suppressed minority. And in reality probably most of the terrorist activities of these groups has been funded and overseen by the same West that is denouncing the treatment of same.
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I am one of those who thinks when "violence" enters the picture, all are victims. This goes back to my college days 3 decades back. The College I joined for my masters degree previously used to be big breeding ground for what is called Naxalite movement/violence.

This Naxalite movement came out of grievances of poor tribal population , soon organized by Indian communist party militant wings affiliated to Mao that led to decades of violence between Naxal's and Police, with average people getting caught in between. Generally, these Naxal's live in jungles and tribal areas with sympathizers in some places in towns and move arms and attack in night. It is very hard to know who is who. But when police and Naxals meet each other, it is simple shoot out called "encounter" (No questions asked style) and we used to hear the stories regularly. Here are some memories of the time.
  • The day I travelled to the college for the first time, I went with a large suitcase and dropped off at the end of wrong end of the college forcing me to carry the large suitcase. Luckily, 2 people who were riding their bicycles helped me and I was very thankful for their generosity. Later, I was told they were Naxalites and that is how interactions starts.
  • We used to have occasional midnight police searches with rude intrusion into dormitory. If one doesn't have Id card, taken to the police station. Despite prohibiting rules to go out after 8 PM, students go out for midnight movie. If any body caught without ID card, they either go Jail for the night or hear police curses, if they are lucky.
  • One time, we were coming back from the mid night movie and waiting for the city bus in semi dark area around 1 AM. A van came in dark and next thing we know is, all of us(dozen) running all over the place. what we realized when we could catch the breath ( after 15 min) was police came in civilian clothes, started beating every body. I happened to be guy who realized that I was chasing the police who is chasing some body else and changed direction to go into side street and didn't go back to the same place. My friends who regrouped after the chaos's thought that I was locked up. But I decided walk in mid night only to be caught up by my friends. We laugh about those incidents.
  • Few years later, I sadly came to know one of my graduate thesis mate(1 of 4) was killed in an encounter. He was from tribal area and seems to have joined Naxalites.
  • My Ex grew up in Naxalite dominated area had many stories. Her favorite being a next door adult girl they lovingly called "sister" and played with her. Few years later, after she was killed in an encounter, they realized that she is a Naxalite.
So much poverty, injustices, stupidities exist in the environment, it is hard to know what is what or who is right. Interestingly, this violent movement that started as a support for the tribal's from wealthy miners who are destroying livelihood, survived collecting the payments from the same miners. This movement still exist, but got relegated to the few minor areas as the economy improved and govt. benefits started reaching the needy in the last decade.

Yep, and that's what the "social credit" thing is really all about. It's not for citizens, but for corporations. Explained here.

Interesting video of the "social credit" system. If they are still maintaining all this data in Excel sheets to enforce, it has to be considered as very primitive than a medium size US company. US had been forking the entire digital traffic to its secret locations and processing the data with massive super computers every second.
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
To the degree that citizens have a universal score, it's more of a financial credit score. This Chinese guy goes over his own score and shows how it works:

We have something similar in Russia, it is called "credit history". And I remember that it also exists in Israel, and most probable in other countries as well. It is apparently called "credit score" in US. Basically, if you have a poor credit history, you will have trouble getting loans and mortgage, and perhaps if you do get a loan, the interest will be much higher.

There is also a centralized online registration called "Gov-services". It's a public services app. Here's more info about it.

Public Services Portal is a part of the infrastructure which provides data exchange and technological interaction of information systems used for rendering state and municipal services in electronic form.

At the moment registering in it became pretty much mandatory, also because it is more comfortable, and because otherwise you will have trouble receiving help from various essential social services. You can still go physically to the relevant gov office, but it will take much more time and effort. And some still ask you to register in the app. It also contains and gathers information from various governmental departments. It has info about property and vehicle registrations, any possible fines, court debts, taxes and such.

Obviously this way the government has access to centralized data about various activities of a person. Anything that requires application and registration. Some services do require registration in the app, and some are still optional, but more comfortable this way.

For example, if I sent a package and it is lost, and I want to create a searching request about its whereabouts, I can do it either by printing out a form, filling it and going to the post office, or I can do it through the "Gov-services" app, which implies that the data regarding the package will then be stored in the database.

Also, the covid vaccination is being managed by the app, and then electronic certification is being given. So in this sense they are tracking a lot of social or business aspects of one's life, but there is no numerical rating value assigned to anyone, and most people don't mind because this kind of centralized system is much more comfortable, and you can still do a lot of things outside the app.

I do think that there is probably some value or an indication that is being assigned to the credit history, but this value isn't being disclosed to the person right away. Though it is possible to receive detailed information by making the request through the bank app. Nowadays in many cases it is possible to get a loan online (depends on the sum), and bank's AI checks the credit history and all the relevant data, and supplies the answer within minutes.

Don't know if the public services app is available in other countries, but made a quick search and can see that something like this is also available in Vietnam.

So yeah, it does look like the "social credit" system in China isn't that much dissimilar from the ones that exist in other countries. Perhaps the main difference is the numerical value that is immediately visible to the person, while in other countries, even in the US, your credit score also has a numerical value, but you see it only after making a request for it.

Here's for example a screen of a credit score of some person from US.

5cb765a797953a2947194bce.jpg

It looks like in China's case they simply combine information from various social services departments (like fines, tax reports, business managment reports, etc) and banking data, and calculate the score based on all this data.
 
Last edited:

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
You can see how the manufactured nonsense against China is used to create policy. And that policy has nothing to do with concern over a supposed suppressed minority.

Right, and we find ourselves (once again) in the rather unfortunate position where a govt. that cares nothing about a certain "oppressed people" in a "far off land", works up certain sections of the Western population to "care" about the "oppressed" people so that Western govts. can achieve their own selfish goals that usually CAUSE the oppression of the people it claimed to care about. The result being that naive people are manipulated and instrumentalized to achieve exactly the opposite of what they were bamboozled into thinking they needed and wanted to achieve.

This is a story as old as geopolitics. Consider Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria in recent decades, where Western govts. "catapulted the propaganda" that the people there were "oppressed" by a "dictator" with the result that Western public support was garnered for a proxy and/or direct war to "free the Syrians/Iraqis/Afghanis" that resulted in a massive suffering and death of those very same "oppressed people" (who were not "oppressed" in the first place) at the hands of Western govts. and, it has to be said, Western populations.
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
I wonder how this happened. :rolleyes:


Russia is no longer the No. 1 geopolitical bogeyman in the eyes of Americans, falling from that spot for the first time in three years, as a new Gallup poll shows people are far more concerned about the threat posed by China. A record-high 45% of Americans said they consider China to be the greatest enemy of the US, up from just 22% a year ago, according to a Gallup poll released on Tuesday
 
Last edited:

Ant22

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Yep, and that's what the "social credit" thing is really all about. It's not for citizens, but for corporations. Explained here.


So basically Western psychopaths in power are accusing China of what they themselves are doing. And following the same logic, I guess the lies they tell us about the Chinese social credit are more or less what they want to implement here.

I can’t say I’m particularly shocked.

You can see how the manufactured nonsense against China is used to create policy. And that policy has nothing to do with concern over a supposed suppressed minority. And in reality probably most of the terrorist activities of these groups has been funded and overseen by the same West that is denouncing the treatment of same.
Right, and we find ourselves (once again) in the rather unfortunate position where a govt. that cares nothing about a certain "oppressed people" in a "far off land", works up certain sections of the Western population to "care" about the "oppressed" people so that Western govts. can achieve their own selfish goals that usually CAUSE the oppression of the people it claimed to care about. The result being that naive people are manipulated and instrumentalized to achieve exactly the opposite of what they were bamboozled into thinking they needed and wanted to achieve.

This is a story as old as geopolitics. Consider Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria in recent decades, where Western govts. "catapulted the propaganda" that the people there were "oppressed" by a "dictator" with the result that Western public support was garnered for a proxy and/or direct war to "free the Syrians/Iraqis/Afghanis" that resulted in a massive suffering and death of those very same "oppressed people" (who were not "oppressed" in the first place) at the hands of Western govts. and, it has to be said, Western populations.

Another example of manufacturing lies about a "far off land" I'll add to the list is the case of the Magnitsky Act, as described by Alex Krainer in the Grand Deception. The Western reality manufacturers turned an accountant into a lawyer, portrayed him as a martyr, and used Bill Browder, a dodgy businessman who did some shady stuff in Russia as an excuse to introduce an anti-Russian piece of legislation.

I guess many members of the forum have already read Krainer's book. But if anyone hasn't I cannot recommend it highly enough, especially to Eastern Europeans. It provides excellent insight into the way in which the Western powers engineered the transition from communism to capitalism in a manner that ruined millions of lives not only in Russia, but in the entire post-Soviet block.

Yet we were told that the West was the good guys and we looked up to those bastards for decades. And thanks to the media even living through a situation doesn't provide accurate insight into it.

This quote comes to mind, tale as old as psychopaths I guess:

1615978135819.png
 

Candice

Jedi
Recently I was asked whether I feel threatened by China since I live in Taiwan. My answer was “no”.

I feel threatened by the US and their increased posturing which escalated with Trump. The US doesn’t care about the welfare of the Taiwanese as they try to make one believe but they will use the island as a pawn in their relations with China, to the detriment of Taiwan.

China would prefer not going to war, their strategy is to take the long route of focusing on economic pressure to get Taiwan to give up ideas of “independence”. Which would hopefully be many long years of maintaining the status quo, preferable to war.

Now with this hyper focus on China, Taiwan is being mentioned more and more in international news and tensions with China have increased.

Even though I’m not fond of the CCP, I do not perceive China to be the big “baddy” that the West is trying to propagate. This so called genocide in these “gulags” is nothing compared to the suffering and human rights abuses happening in Yemen and other countries due to the weapons sales and funding by not only the US but other Western allies.

In truth I’ve noticed it’s the exact same people who believe there is a genocide of the Uyghurs that believe there is a genocide of white people in South Africa. In SA, the boers are the “oppressed minority” who refuse to assimilate into the majority culture and obey certain rules of the state. They even have their own militias, anyways that’s a topic for another thread. I just find it interesting what narratives people choose to believe about groups in other countries that they have very little objective information to base these narratives on.
 

itellsya

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Article out yesterday on GlobalTimes.cn: Xinjiang residents to sue BBC over fake news on region regarding the claims of forced labor camps.

'Local people said that Zenz spread "forced labor" and other rumors related to Xinjiang, which damaged their reputation and caused them to suffer losses.'

Full article below. I haven't watched the accompanying video.

Note also that the UK's broadcast authority OFCOM recently revoked China's CGTN license and in turn China called out the BBC for its fake news coverage of Covid-19: UK regulator Ofcom revokes broadcast license of CGTN, as West ramps up coordinated anti-China censorship campaign -- Sott.net

This also comes at a time when Ukraine and Latvia are harassing Russian broadcasters, and Russia is threatening to ban Twitter for hosting child abuse material.


CHINA / SOCIETY

Xinjiang residents to sue BBC over fake news on region

By Global Times Published: Mar 18, 2021 11:12 AM

Xinjiang residents to sue BBC over fake news on region - Global Times

A number of individuals in Northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region plan to sue BBC for producing fake news, spreading rumors about Xinjiang and slandering China's policy in its Xinjiang region, a senior official from the region announced on Thursday.

Xu Guixiang, deputy director of the publicity department of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region Committee, revealed the information at a Xinjiang-related press conference held by the Chinese Foreign Ministry in Beijing.

Under the banner of so-called "freedom of the press" and without investigation and verification, the BBC followed the trend and quoted the so-called Xinjiang-related "research report" of pseudo-scholar Adrian Zenz, producing and broadcasting fake news, making irresponsible remarks on Xinjiang-related policies, and spreading rumors and slander, Xu said, noting that the British media outlet has become a platform for the dissemination of Zenz's lies about Xinjiang.

Local residents walk in a street at a scenic spot in the ancient city of Kashgar, northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, May 16, 2020.Photo:Xinhua

Local residents walk in a street at a scenic spot in the ancient city of Kashgar, northwest China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, May 16, 2020.Photo:Xinhua

Zenz, a German national who calls himself Zheng Guoen in Chinese, is an infamous anti-China far-right figure who has produced multiple sensational "reports" on Xinjiang on Twitter, and fabricated false academic research on Xinjiang, in which he spread rumors such as large-scale monitoring of local ethnic minorities and forced labor of the Uygurs.

A number of enterprises and individuals in Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region have directed lawyers to sue German national Adrian Zenz, Xinjiang local news outlet ts.cn reported on March 9. Local people said that Zenz spread "forced labor" and other rumors related to Xinjiang, which damaged their reputation and caused them to suffer losses.

Some victims in Xinjiang also plan to sue the BBC. Along with Zenz, they will eventually stand in the dock and accept the verdict of law and justice, Xu said.

"The BBC constantly crossed the bottom line on Xinjiang-related reports and completely abandoned the professional ethics of news media. These anti-China forces are in collusion and have staged farcical and absurd scenes
that are disgusting and make people laugh," Xu said.

Xu said that Xinjiang has made unprecedented achievements in its economic and social development and improvement of people's livelihoods, showing social stability with people living and working in peace and contentment. People of all ethnic groups in Xinjiang have a growing sense of fulfilment, happiness and security, he said.

"Zenz's so-called 'research report' will be swept into the dustbin of history together with himself, and will be spurned by the 25 million people of all ethnic groups in Xinjiang," Xu said.
 
Last edited:

Anybody seen this? I watched it yesterday, and learned some new things.
I find it so frustrating that people who question the government narrative on Covid and Israel and even Syria and Russia can't see past the government narrative on China. And I'm evil for not fully believing it...
 

Niall

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Just gonna leave this here...

Session 13 March 2021


(Niall) Is the Chinese government falsely imprisoning hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Xinjiang province?

A: No.

Q: (Joe) It's probably happening, but not on a huge scale.

A: Only in cases of extreme radicalization.
Note that Joe gave allowance for the Chinese penal system in Xinjiang 'roughing up at least some innocents', but the Cs replied - without being specifically asked - with a categorical distinction.

I don't intend that this be, or expect it will be, the last word on 'Gulags in China'. So, FWIW to you.
 

Niall

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
A recent video report on 'gulags in China' by journalist Dan Cohen, who identifies and questions a couple of Uyghur 'sources' in Washington DC. Note how he exposes the variability of US foreign policy towards Muslim-majority countries depending on the govt's broader geopolitical (and thus 'true') aims:


Note also, from about minute 14, the discussion of Canadian vlogger Daniel Dumbrill, who lives in China. I think he came to the fore when he began video reports during the Chinese lockdown in February last year. Anyway, he recently published this summary of the 'genocide' in Xinjiang, explaining that it's another in a long chain of US govt fictions with which to target countries' 'human rights record' and thereby 'blacken their name' on the international stage:

 
Last edited:
Top Bottom