Gulags in China?

duyunne

Jedi Council Member
I see good points made in that thread you posted Palinurus, but are we going to settle on the notion that there are actually millions of these terrorists? I state millions as that's the number tossed around in the video. Food for thought.
 

itellsya

Ambassador
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I see good points made in that thread you posted Palinurus, but are we going to settle on the notion that there are actually millions of these terrorists? I state millions as that's the number tossed around in the video. Food for thought.
This has been discussed a few times elsewhere - not just in the thread linked by Palinurus - although that's not to say that there's not room for further discussion. But it would help to avoid repetition to first read the following threads:

China
- Starting here.
BRICS: Laying the Foundations of the Next Empire?
- Again the 'camps' are discussed here.


It's also considerate to others to use the search function before posting; i found it using the search term: 'China camps'.
 

Woodsman

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
This has been discussed a few times elsewhere - not just in the thread linked by Palinurus - although that's not to say that there's not room for further discussion. But it would help to avoid repetition to first read the following threads:

China
- Starting here.
BRICS: Laying the Foundations of the Next Empire?
- Again the 'camps' are discussed here.


It's also considerate to others to use the search function before posting; i found it using the search term: 'China camps'.
Ah. Good. I did indeed perform what I believed was a duly diligent search, but as has often been typical of the SOTT search function, failed to turn up anything but scattered remarks in unrelated threads. Time to go do some reading. I'll report back when I'm up to speed...
 

Woodsman

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Nothing is black and white.

China and the U.S., from what I can gather, look like two warring dragons with all the little people caught in between. It seems evident that the U.S. is fading in terms of power, indulging in wishful thinking wrt their ability to stand against China. But that doesn’t mean anybody should trust China; I certainly don’t trust a government which shamelessly self-describes their guiding philosophy as Marxist/Leninist and atheist. (Materialism and anti-spirit leads to no good for a society, and 'equality for all' has never worked before on a national level. Why on earth should China get a free pass? Surly we are not suggesting that China managed to get "Socialism Right" this time?)

China officially guarantees freedom of religion for major belief systems such as Christianity, Buddhism and Islam, but party members are meant to be atheists and are especially banned from participating in what China calls superstitious practices such as visiting soothsayers.

A lengthy statement on how best to strengthen the party’s role and its leadership, issued on the official Xinhua news agency on Wednesday, said Marxism was the guiding thought for China and the party. ”Resolutely prevent not believing in Marx and Lenin and believing in ghosts and spirits, not believing in the truth and believing in money,” the party statement said.

President Xi Jinping said last year the party’s decision to stick with the political theories of Karl Marx remained “totally correct”. He was marking the 200th anniversary of the German philosopher’s birth.

~ China

Now, I would be very surprised if there weren’t a CIA hand in generating internal discord, both in the form of agitating Islamic terrorists in the North, and hyping democratic protesters in Hong Kong.

But Communist China is still Communist China. In talking about this stuff, I was privy to some words from an international businessman who described how he and others were getting bad vibes from mainland China and were ditching their posts, saying that the political mood had been shifting in a worrying direction over the last few years. They were getting out while the getting was good.

Restrictive socialist mechanisms have been energizing, (witness the Social Credit System being rolled out across China). My guess is that, in concert with the unconscious Wave hysteria settling over the globe, another active ingredient in China’s case may possibly be a result of the industrial golden age they have been experiencing for the last couple of decades winding down, or rather, being shared with other emerging national interests, resulting in the desire to maintain a hold on that power. The increasing possibility of an economic bubble burst, and the problem of declining birth rates, China is experiencing a relatively new era of "what do we do now?".

I think perhaps, (my tentative guess), is that based on the C’s description from the future that Western STS forces would be ultimately defeated, predictors are possibly thinking in terms of national resistance, losses and wins. -In which case, the rise of new economic super-powers would per force be the Good Guys, to offset the Western Bad Guy establishment.

My suspicion, however, when looking at the various governments involved, is that while there may indeed be expressions of alignment seen in leaderships, the battle in the main is not the sort which can be best understood by looking at traditional maps, (this country good, that country bad). -But rather in terms of percentages of populations coming to their senses and choosing not to align with ponerogenic forces. We are seeing the battle fought across social media, through so-called "Cancel Culture" which does appear to be losing of late as more and more people recognize the evils of self-censorship and mob attacks, and have started pushing back. That battle is important, future-choosing, and not contained by national borders.


Q: (A) There is this Pentagon, then there is another superpower - Russia - and still another - China...
A: There is only one.
The U.S. just happens to be the center.
Q: (A) Well. (L) Maybe the heads of these other countries are all like George Bush. They don't know why they do what they do. It's all been scripted from somewhere else. (A) Question is: there is Europe - how can France or Russia or whoever, win against this kind of technology? Apparently, since there is only one center, and this center of technology is the U.S, it seems pretty hopeless.
A: Remember Perseus and David and Goliath. Besides, help is drawing near.
Q: (A) Help. (L) Sometimes I have the feeling that when they say "help is drawing near," it really means that that our "future" is getting closer and we are going to be the ones doing the helping! [Laughter.]
A: Close, but not all.
Q: (A) That means there are surprises waiting for us. (L) I think that people concentrating on the anti-war thing is a waste of time. I think they ought to be concentrating on the "impeach Bush" issue. But then, what good would it do to impeach Bush. Same thing would have happened with Gore. Until people wake up to the reality of 4th density manipulation, we are all in deep doo doo.
A: True.

In any case...

A leadership’s devotion to socialism, to me, seems a fair indicator of alignment with wishful thinking and top-heavy authoritarian control. China is built on that stuff, so I cannot assume benign behavior, and indeed, I give due credence to reports of gulag-style camps sprouting up across the region. It seems logically inevitable given all we have learned about socialist nations.

It should be remembered, back in the middle of the previous century, many in the West refused to believe that Soviet Russia was up to no good, and indeed turned a blind eye to their systemic human liquidation schemes. Paradoxically, it would seem apparent that a portion of the U.S. secret services were indeed fighting the good fight in opposing Communism!

In May 1944, Franklin D. Roosevelt sent Henry Wallace to Magadan, Siberia. Shielded from the real horrors, the American came away in high spirits, and in doing so he committed one of the most embarrassing blunders in U.S. political history. [...]

relations between the U.S. and the Soviet Union are generally remembered for their iciness, but this wasn’t always the case. By 1944, relations had become so comfortable that the unsuspecting Wallace was invited to Kolyma to personally inspect the USSR’s biggest and most deadly labor camp.

Wallace was presented with a temporarily polished-up commune full of well-fed and happy citizens, most of whom were shipped in for the occasion. Buying into everything he was told, the unwitting American inadvertently let colossal human rights abuses slip from right from under his nose, and even labelled the GULAG “clear evidence of the most outstanding and gifted political leadership.” How was Wallace duped so easily?

~ Collusion with the USSR: Why did FDR’s Vice President visit the GULAG and praise it?
Also...

“In the aftermath of the 1917 October revolution, Communist leaders found that there were a number of dangerous ideologies and people floating around Russia — and nobody knew how fatal an inspiring new ideology could be better than the leaders of the Russian Revolution.

“They decided that it would be best if those who disagreed with the new order found somewhere else to be — and if the state could profit from free labor at the same time, all the better. Publicly, they would refer to the updated katorga system as a "re-education" campaign; through hard labor, society's uncooperative elements would learn to respect the common people and love the new dictatorship of the proletariat.”

~ 32 Disturbing Photos Of Life Inside Soviet Gulag Prisons


A final note...

The STS Orion aliens would appear to have a very efficient society where everybody is happy to submit to control. A great success! They probably don’t even need re-education camps to keep their citizenry in line. But that doesn’t make it good or laudable.

My guess is that China is being lined up to become the defacto race on Planet Earth, in part because they seem predisposed to authoritarianism and a lack of body hair, (and probably make for better eating.)
 

itellsya

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Nothing is black and white.

China and the U.S., from what I can gather, look like two warring dragons with all the little people caught in between. It seems evident that the U.S. is fading in terms of power, indulging in wishful thinking wrt their ability to stand against China. But that doesn’t mean anybody should trust China; I certainly don’t trust a government which shamelessly self-describes their guiding philosophy as Marxist/Leninist and atheist. (Materialism and anti-spirit leads to no good for a society, and 'equality for all' has never worked before on a national level. Why on earth should China get a free pass? Surly we are not suggesting that China managed to get "Socialism Right" this time?)
It's not black and white and yet your post describing China comes across as just that, with a lot of seemingly misinformed assumptions.

For some insight into the Chinese mentality, i found the following article informative:

[...]
This almost punctilious adherence to legal principles is quite alien to the chopsticks people. For them, for the Chinese, you have got to look at the overall picture. Should you or should you not? If you should, then you find a way to do it.
[...]

What I want to conclude with is to say that as the I Ching [Book of Changes, an ancient Chinese divination text] teaches us, there are cycles within cycles. China may be on the way up today. One day it will peak, one day it will decline. Europe may be struggling now, but one day it will recover and come up again. The US is also going through a cyclical change.

There must be a humility in whatever stage of the cycle we are in - particularly if we are up, one day we will be down. When we have that humility and see in another person an identity with a history like our own, who has his good points and his own wisdom from which I can learn and benefit, then we will have a better world.

Now, I would be very surprised if there weren’t a CIA hand in generating internal discord, both in the form of agitating Islamic terrorists in the North, and hyping democratic protesters in Hong Kong.
As the links posted previously demonstrate, that is partly what seems to be happening.

But Communist China is still Communist China. In talking about this stuff, I was privy to some words from an international businessman who described how he and others were getting bad vibes from mainland China and were ditching their posts, saying that the political mood had been shifting in a worrying direction over the last few years. They were getting out while the getting was good.
We can't really comment on the speculations of an unnamed businessman, qualified with a comment about "bad vibes", but could some of those fears these people be based upon the fact that China has shown itself - more so than in the West at least - to take serious action against corruption?

Restrictive socialist mechanisms have been energizing, (witness the Social Credit System being rolled out across China).
For an idea of what the rollout looks like in some places in China and some thoughts from locals:

The complex reality of China's social credit system: Hi-tech dystopian plot or low-key incentive scheme?
[...]
Every day, Yang, 52, roams Jiakuang Majia village with a pen and paper in hand, writing down every instance of free labour or other donations her fellow villagers make to the community - two points for Ma Shaojun for taking eight hours to install a new basketball hoop in the village playground; 30 points for Ma Hongyun for donating a 3,000-yuan (US$445) TV screen for the village meeting room; and 10 points each for Ma Shuting and Ma Qiuling who have a son serving in the army in Tibet.

The points are added to the villagers' personal "credit scores", which are tied to community welfare programmes. High scorers get more rice, cooking oil and cash rewards from the village committee and are lauded on village bulletin boards as role models.

At the same time, points are deducted for bad behaviour such as littering or neglecting care of elderly parents. In Jiakuang Majia village, there is no artificial intelligence, algorithm or other cutting-edge technology involved - it all boils down to pieces of paper and tedious manual labour.
[...]
"It is just part of the government's usual propaganda. It has nothing to do with our lives," said Zhou Wen, a taxi driver in his 40s.

Public notice boards explaining the system or displaying model high scorers are common, but few seem to take any notice.
A final note...

The STS Orion aliens would appear to have a very efficient society where everybody is happy to submit to control. A great success! They probably don’t even need re-education camps to keep their citizenry in line. But that doesn’t make it good or laudable.

My guess is that China is being lined up to become the defacto race on Planet Earth, in part because they seem predisposed to authoritarianism and a lack of body hair, (and probably make for better eating.)
I don't really have much to add to that latter part of your comment but i wonder if it reflects much of your thinking on the matter. As for being authoritarian, evidently China has experienced revolutions when leadership has been inadequate, so it seems there is more nuance than them being just 'authoritarian'.

The situation is complicated, but the propaganda about these 'camps' appears to be just that, propaganda. What China will become remains to be seen.

It's notable that countries in the West, who've proven themselves to be much more volatile and untrustworthy, are eagerly trialling out similar security state style schemes of their own:

China's 'Smart' surveillance tech arrives in Darwin, Australia
Big brother Britain: Facial recognition cameras deployed in London, man fined for covering his face

Well, i don't claim to be the most knowledgeable on the topic but i haven't come across anything that really supports the ideas you talk about in your post.
 
Much as I appreciate your nuanced view, itellsya, I have to agree with Woodsman on a few things. I am writing this as half Chinese person who has spent time in China and Taiwan and is engaged in Chinese Studies, especially relating to religion and metaphysics.

The notion that China is guided by "Materialism and Anti-Spirit" sounds like a horrible overgeneralization, but it is true to a certain extent when it comes to Modern China. While scholars point to Confucian classics/Chuangzi/Laozi/Yijing, they often forget that they play no role in the education system of the PRC(hardly anyone can actually read Classical Chinese proficiently). Not even in Taiwan do people learn much about it(not even in my mother's generation. My Italian professor, who specializes in the alchemical side of Daoism, once joked that most people on the streets of Europe can probably tell you more about Daoism than native Chinese people). There has been a strong desire to imitate all things Western until recently(since the late 19th century), and China was surprisingly efficient at throwing out anything that had to do with its culture. They may have been more successful at destroying their own culture and values than any other country in recent times. Since Xi Jinping, the PRC has become a lot more authoritarian and critical thinking is not exactly a trait that Chinese education promotes(this is a problem for Chinese university students that study abroad).
As such, it is not surprising to see that when I ask Chinese university students or village peasants about the existence of ghosts, they'll reply, without thinking, "of course they don't exist". Temples are, for the most part, tourist attractions and religion is reduced to philosophy(in imitation of philosophy faculties found in the West) and the practical side is practically dead. It simply has no influence on the average Chinese person's education and lifestyle. Many Germans here are surprised to see just how many seemingly Western materialist assumptions drive the Chinese students that come here. Can't really speak of a culture clash anymore, because they come across as more materialist and consumerist than many middle class Germans.
When I visit villages in rural Sichuan, the people are not that different from the educated class either.

Chinese are very pragmatic, but make no mistake, materialism and physicalism as a metaphysical foundation run very deep in their society.

Will they be different than the US empire? Of course. Will it be any better than the current world order? Unlikely.
In my opinion, it may offset the reach of the US empire and as such, the enemy of my enemy is my friend holds true. But in the end, it might just be a different flavour of the same thing.
 

Beau

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FOTCM Member
Reports of hundreds of Gulag-style camps in Northern China, imprisoning millions
Oh yes, the Western press have been spreading this "millions imprisoned by China" idea for a while now. It's all part of the larger plan for destabilizing China, along with using American-trained jihadists aka the Uyghurs for their proxy war. I don't think I've ever seen this supposed story about prison camps anywhere but in the Western press. But certainly the Uyghurs are no innocents.





 
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The point is, whether it seems good or bad to some that happens in China, this world is STS after all.

I recommend you watch the following documentary:

In the contrast you will see what really happens.
 

itellsya

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FOTCM Member
The point is, whether it seems good or bad to some that happens in China, this world is STS after all.
In the contrast you will see what really happens.
Hey Bluegazer, since not everyone will have the opportunity to watch the documentary, please feel free to provide a synopsis. It might also help if you provide more detail on how you think this documentary relates to the discussion. As for the synopsis, a quick search gave me the following:

In this documentary, hopes soar when a Chinese company reopens a shuttered factory in Ohio. But a culture clash threatens to shatter an American dream.
and
Cultures collide. Hope survives. When a Chinese billionaire re-opens a factory and hires two thousand blue-collar Americans, early days of hope and optimism give way to setbacks as high-tech China clashes with working-class America.
 
if you provide more detail on how you think this documentary relates to the discussion
Whether communism or capitalism the documentary expresses what we know: two sides of the same coin.

When you see Chinese employees in China, singing business slogans as if it were a boot camp, you realize that they have transformed their utopian socialism into the most perfect of scientific dictatorships. You don't need gulags or concentration camps in the old Soviet style.
 

Woodsman

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
For some insight into the Chinese mentality, i found the following article informative:
What about it did you find insightful? It seemed like a short vanilla history lesson without much meat or clear message. (Published by a paper with a history of self-censoring in support of the state.)

We can't really comment on the speculations of an unnamed businessman, qualified with a comment about "bad vibes", but could some of those fears these people be based upon the fact that China has shown itself - more so than in the West at least - to take serious action against corruption?

For an idea of what the rollout looks like in some places in China and some thoughts from locals:
I agree that anecdotal remarks are worth little in terms of producing a compelling forensic picture for others, but to me, having grown up surrounded by Chinese and having had many native Asian friends and connections, the "audience score" is worth more than the calming musings of the South China Morning Post, (from which you have twice quoted):

Reporter Paul Mooney said that the Li Wangyang story was not an isolated incident: Wang Xiangwei has "long had a reputation as being a censor of the news... Talk to anyone on the China reporting team at the South China Morning Post and they'll tell you a story about how Wang has cut their stories, or asked them to do an uninteresting story that was favourable to China."[50] Mooney, who had won 10 journalistic award and whose contract with the paper was not renewed in May 2012 ostensibly because of "budgetary reasons", said that for seven months prior to his departure from the newspaper, Wang had marginalised Mooney by blocking him writing any China stories, and then hired a batch of novices mainly from mainland China after he had been ousted.[51]

Despite the reported sentiments of the owners, the Post does report on commemorations of the Tiananmen Square Massacre,[52] and ran an editorial criticising the one-child policy in 2013.[53] The SCMP published an interview with Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba and member of the Communist Party of China, in which Ma defended late Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping's decision to crack down on pro-democracy student protests, saying it was "the most correct decision". The relevant remark was deleted not long after the article was published; the reporter responsible for the interview was suspended and later was resigned. Alibaba said that Ma had been quoted "improperly", and demanded a rectification, but the editor-in-chief refused.[3][54]

~ South China Morning Post - Wikipedia
I notice as well that you did not comment on what I thought were the most significant and important points raised in my previous post: The pattern of willing self-delusion wrt gulag style operations in the past, fooling even FDR's visiting vice president with a contrived display, and the fact that China's government is openly Marxist and anti-spiritual. Have you read Solzhenitsyn and have you studied the history of socialism? There are certain trends which are undeniable, and which have been globally proven time and again.

You suggested that I am indulging in black & white thinking, and this concerns me obviously; I don't want to fall prey to mental traps. You were not specific, leaving me to guess: Is it in this area where you feel I am offending? -By assuming caution wrt to communist states? I would remind you that this is a government with an established history of having killed tens, if not hundreds of millions in its Socialist pursuits, and which changed hands after Mao but didn't actually fall. If this is where you feel I am being black & white in my thinking, then some further discussion might be warranted.

[...]
It's notable that countries in the West, who've proven themselves to be much more volatile and untrustworthy, are eagerly trialling out similar security state style schemes of their own:

China's 'Smart' surveillance tech arrives in Darwin, Australia
Big brother Britain: Facial recognition cameras deployed in London, man fined for covering his face

Well, i don't claim to be the most knowledgeable on the topic but i haven't come across anything that really supports the ideas you talk about in your post.
One of the other main ideas I made an effort to raise in my post was that evil is not the sole province of any single national entity. There is plenty of nefarious bad acting to go around. Pointing out that other people also do terrible things is generally considered a poor argument when trying to justify the behavior observed in a given defendant.

Yes, absolutely, the CIA appears to have a hand in undermining China. That's how it works. Historically, both the Soviet Union and the U.S. were engaged in tremendous amounts of disinformation aimed at each other. But there still remain underlying truths about the nature of each beast.

While I can't vet the Business Insider, (it is no more sacrosanct than the South China Morning Post) this captured drone footage still provides food for thought:


It is not every day you see blind folded rows of men being transported by rail under heavy guard. While I recognize that story framing is a thing in journalism, I also don't think it is wise to ignore obvious red flags without due consideration.
 

genero81

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
When you see Chinese employees in China, singing business slogans as if it were a boot camp, you realize that they have transformed their utopian socialism into the most perfect of scientific dictatorships. You don't need gulags or concentration camps in the old Soviet style.
I saw it on Netflix where it's still available. The American workers have mixed feelings. On the one hand, they are grateful to be working again. On the other, it's no GM! They're making less than half the hourly wage and are expected to work considerably longer hours than they're accustomed to. After a period of rough going trying to get the business profitable, some of the American management team goes to China to try and get an idea of why the operation over there is a success while the one over here is floundering. What you see of the working conditions over there is a bit of a shock. The workers are pretty much treated like human robots. They work 12 hour days including Saturdays as a matter of course. If a deadline needs to be met, they're expected to work with no days off until accomplished. Sometimes for a month or more without time off. Their company overlords have propaganda videos playing of happy families enjoying their non existent time off together.

You can tell by the interviews with the Chinese workers that it's a pretty miserable existence. They say; "we're tired, but we have no choice."

This is only comment on that particular documentary, I have no real knowledge of what goes on in China.
 
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