I've still not made up my mind one way or the other. Good that I don't mind about that.

Two interesting pieces of information from family and friends this morning. One friend of family is a retired nuclear engineer, so he is good at math at least, but not a medical professional, biologist, epidemiologist. Very convincingly he laid out the case that it's actually more likely to wind the lottery than die from coronavirus. Maybe, maybe not, but his argument and his math was convincing on it's face. He was confident in his presentation and he knew the facts.

Next, from a cousin who is highly placed in the pharma business, MIT and Bekeley trained PhD microbiologist, runs a large team of scientists, very large. His take this morning was sobering. Of the 100 or so epidemiologists he has working on his team, they were unable to model a good scenario. With a grain of salt, his (and mine) belief is that it's still too early to call, we are still getting data, it's unclear how much community transmission there is at the moment. His is a very well informed and data-driven opinion, and it's scary. His team, best case, says 100M 1M dead. He addressed the conflict of interest question also, being that his livelihood is tied to pharma, by saying he's not in the business of developing vaccines, but would probably be involved in their production in some way. That said, he's not a public spokesperson. I have the opportunity to ask very point-blank questions to him at family gatherings, and he does not shy way (great anecdote is how in a high-level executive meeting he told Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos fame that she was basically full of it). He is not on TV jumping up and down with his hair on fire. Instead, he calmly put together a list of people to call, and said to be prepared for the worst, but he was emphatic that there's not enough data to call it definitively, and at the moment he doesn't know.

I think that says a lot, that is, the admission of, "I don't know!" It's probably the scariest thing out there for the smarties out there. The first guy, probably in denial that he doesn't know, since he's a smart nuclear engineer and always knows how to do the math, laid out a feel good situation. Cousin, face with a whole staff of scientists telling him bad news, also doesn't know, and he laid out a very scary situation. Very interesting take on how this is playing with everyone's mind right now. Mind-games do seem such a sign of the times.

I still don't know.
I used to play Plague Inc on android, but I got bored after creating my own pandemic. Just searched App Store and on mac it is available in both original version and in Plague Inc Scenarios version. The other day I looked on youtube and noticed several channels dealing with this game, so it is still very much en vogue with a lot of followers. Scientists do not look at game developers and gamers, although much like some movie productions, some games are being sponsored by non scientists that need to know risks and threats. I am a geoscientist by profession and I am part of the very few scientists that regard computers as they are, boxes of wires that run codes which are supposed to produce from simple calculations to 3D and 4D models of the data. The majority of scientists never get to write a line of code, never mind to model their own data or god forbid run scenarios and make interpretations, aka educated guesses, therefore are not very helpful in quantifying risk. The data scientists on the other hand, even if they can manage to take their heads out of the stats sands, know nothing about the science behind the data.
In such a predicament those in the social decision making positions that rely on honest and very knowledgeable scientists will also still don’t know.
 
COVID-19 Coronavirus “Fake” Pandemic: Timeline and Analysis


'What we are dealing with is “economic warfare” supported by media disinformation, coupled with the deliberate intent by the Trump administration to undermine China’s economy. The ongoing economic dislocations are not limited to China.'


.
 
Seeing the leadership of nearly every country on the planet acting in public like complete morons is just astonishing. Are they doing this deliberately, in concert, just to see how truly dumb and programmed the public actually is?
Is it possible that all the connected Deep States with plans to implement their "Liberal Agenda" are actually doing it in front of our eyes?

From my point of view, this scaremongering is definitely some kind of operation on a global scale. This evening I watched our president giving a speech about corona. He assembled several top experts on infectology and gave a statement. Their consensus was that the ordinary flu is so far much more dangerous than a corona virus.

What is important is that our president is trying to not be fully controlled by the western powers, so he gave a speech than any normal leader of a country would give in such circumstances. I mean, even if this really was some deadly virus, no leader would want to create a total panic in his country. It's just not economically justifiable to do that.

So from all of that, I can only conclude that there must be some secret intention behind the current global spreading of panic among the population. I remember the panic around the bird and swine flu, and although there was scaremongering in the media, it was nothing like this. Back then I got the impression that they just want to sell more vaccines. But now it's much more than that. Back then it was about making money. But today, with these measures, they will lose much more money than what they can get with vaccines. So there must be something more going on behind the scenes.

At least that's how I see things.
 
That is pretty accurate Neil.
Watch for New Mexico, Nevada and Denver areas to be quarantined shortly. This would be another speculation to watch for. Likely all of those secret areas will be included. A no go zone, after all they can't risk people walking out on them in order to keep as many souls stuck here as possible.
If you are in France, that secret base in which people got Coronavirus is another hot spot. It is likely a no go zone.
 
How many deaths in China up to now, where it started? Under 5K??? That's a pretty poor showing for any flu. And now, their infection rate is already dropping.

I tell ya, something really weird is going on and it isn't a pandemic.

One of the more interesting of questions in relation to this is why would China shut down a significant portion of their economy for a pretty long period when they were already seeing a slowdown and possibly problems in terms of over lending and bad loans, etc? It is like committing economic suicide and causing the supply chain and just in time delivery system to the world to be shut down because everything is so intertwined. And how much of the manufacturing, etc that China provides has been restarted? Or when will it restart? Some point out that China must be lying about the number of people sick and dead, etc and that would explain their reaction. That the numbers must be greater to justify their actions. I don't know the answer. Maybe only people in governments in the various countries have some kind of answer, but doesn't seem like the governments of the world are really providing any solid information.

And then we have more countries like Italy following suit with basically shutting down for three weeks or more and it is likely, I think, more countries will follow suit with how things are going. You have industries in travel, hospitality and related things being destroyed and, I hope it doesn't, but the global economy slowly looking like it is going to grind to a halt over this corona virus business and all of the reactions, whatever the real reason is for all of it.

If that is the case, then I think we are only at the very beginning of masses of people acting crazy or freaking out and things becoming even more crazy overall.

Indeed, today it struck me how utterly bizarre the whole thing is. It's definitely not just your usual scaremongering in the Western MSM. The whole planet is freaking out!! The Russians put Draconian measures in place (they put people in home quarantine and threaten them with 5 years of prison if they break it), the Iranians are in chaos, the Chinese are freaking out, Italy on lockdown, prison uprisings in Italy, Economic recession approaching, right-wingers' germ-aversion buttons being pushed... People morph into preppers overnight, schools closed, trade fairs canceled, companies panicking not because of their losses but because of virus... What IS this madness?

Add to this the battle between Saudi Arabia and Russia with respect to oil.
 
Today I've got a message from Public Library in the city where I live that it will be closed for one month because of Co-vir. I was looking on TV from time to time to check how it goes and what they are sending to people and there is nothing else than Co-vir and fearmongering all the time and informing about impact on economics this situation have. I do my life as usual, but there also were thoughts about "what is it all about" and sadly a conclusion in line with Loreta's thoughts came to me - the one about getting rid of elders as they "not useful" in the eyes of power-keepers, and also that governments are having kind of a trial run to see how far they can go with restrictions and orders and how obediently people will follow. The only thing I'm afraid of at this point is that we will be pushed to get vaccination... One may only wonder what consequences it all will bring, it is all open, let's see, keep calm and read some bright lines from C's sessions ;). Thank you for every input and sharing, you are in my thoughts.
 
The situation in New Zealand is quite interesting. There is an election in September so both major parties are using the crisis for political point scoring, with the opposition predictably saying the government isn't doing enough to keep people safe.. There are 5 confirmed cases, although whether those 5 people are all exhibiting symptoms is unclear. The 5 cases also all happen to be in Auckland. There is a major Polynesian festival on in Auckland this weekend, and at this stage the government has not cancelled it and in fact the Prime Minister says she is going to attend as there is no risk.

Travel restrictions are in place for anybody flying in from China, Italy, Iran, South Korea and any incoming citizens returning from these places are required to self isolate. There was a huge surge of panic buying in Auckland after the first case and predictably many supermarkets in Auckland were out of toilet paper and bottled water.

The messages coming from the government and the Health department have been measured and unemotional. So it was quite a surprise to see a spokesman from the NZ Medical Society on the news last night. She cam across as a slightly deranged, frothing at the mouth lunatic, claiming the virus was here, that nothing could stop its spread and that there would be huge numbers of deaths in NZ as a consequence. It was really quite surreal, such a contrast to the official Health Department messages.

I live in a town of 20,000 people, a good 2 hours down country from Auckland. I spend part of my time working with a voluntary group - SeniorNet - helping the elderly with their technology. The attitude of almost all of these people is one of amusement at the media circus around the world, the attitude is "we've seen it all before, it will be no worse than in previous times, what is wrong with all these people and their panic". A quiet relaxed approach, which did surprise me somewhat. We had a committee meeting Monday and the same attitude prevailed. Not to worry, we will only suspend public social meetings if the government tells us to.

There was also an article on the news about people who had booked a cruise, with the Health department advising them to consider cancelling if they were unwell or frail but otherwise no big deal. That surprised me as as far as I am conerned, it wopuld be prudent not to isolate oneself on a closed environment like a cruise ship, where any disease would likely spread much faster than normal.

So, in summary, while people are certainly aware of the worldwide panic, by and large it is not yet present in the country.
 
The situation in New Zealand is quite interesting. There is an election in September so both major parties are using the crisis for political point scoring, with the opposition predictably saying the government isn't doing enough to keep people safe.. There are 5 confirmed cases, although whether those 5 people are all exhibiting symptoms is unclear. The 5 cases also all happen to be in Auckland. There is a major Polynesian festival on in Auckland this weekend, and at this stage the government has not cancelled it and in fact the Prime Minister says she is going to attend as there is no risk.

Travel restrictions are in place for anybody flying in from China, Italy, Iran, South Korea and any incoming citizens returning from these places are required to self isolate. There was a huge surge of panic buying in Auckland after the first case and predictably many supermarkets in Auckland were out of toilet paper and bottled water.

The messages coming from the government and the Health department have been measured and unemotional. So it was quite a surprise to see a spokesman from the NZ Medical Society on the news last night. She cam across as a slightly deranged, frothing at the mouth lunatic, claiming the virus was here, that nothing could stop its spread and that there would be huge numbers of deaths in NZ as a consequence. It was really quite surreal, such a contrast to the official Health Department messages.

I live in a town of 20,000 people, a good 2 hours down country from Auckland. I spend part of my time working with a voluntary group - SeniorNet - helping the elderly with their technology. The attitude of almost all of these people is one of amusement at the media circus around the world, the attitude is "we've seen it all before, it will be no worse than in previous times, what is wrong with all these people and their panic". A quiet relaxed approach, which did surprise me somewhat. We had a committee meeting Monday and the same attitude prevailed. Not to worry, we will only suspend public social meetings if the government tells us to.

So, in summary, while people are certainly aware of the worldwide panic, by and large it is not yet present in the country.
Thank God for some common sense.
 
Indeed. and thank you. There is something to say about the current comparisons to flu numbers, especially the absurd notion that the flu 'kills more'. It doesn't. It's already endemic and affects hundreds of millions yearly, absolutely not the same.
You again state that like it's a fact. It's not. It's a theory the media has run with.

Why could this 'flu-like illness, with attendant complications in some' also not be "already endemic and affect[ing] hundreds of millions"?

Look at this latest info about the 'original cluster' in northern Italy:

Mattia [Italy's 'Patient 1'] first went to the hospital in Codogno on Feb. 18 complaining of flu-like symptoms. He was sent home but came back the next day after his condition worsened dramatically. He was only tested for coronavirus after doctors learned that in early February he had met with a man who had been to China.

By then, however, he had infected his wife and several doctors, nurses and patients at the Codogno hospital, creating what was thought initially to have been Italy’s main cluster. Since his China contact turned out to be negative, though, experts now believe that the virus had been circulating widely and quietly in northern Italy since at least the second half of January.

Extrapolate that out to 'circulating widely and quietly' everywhere since at least the second half of January - such that it's likely been spread around the whole world in the last two months - which would mean it's "already endemic and affecting hundreds of millions," thus the mortality rate could turn out to be within average for flu season.

But then you say 'but they've run out of ICU beds in Italian hospitals!'

Indeed, as they have been for many years now because of a decade of post-2008 'financial crash' austerity cuts. Here's an item on how the UK's hospitals were struggling to cope with the combination of austerity + 'regular flu' + cold weather just 3 months ago, right before COVID-19 entered the mix:

NHS winter crisis: extra beds created by 52% of UK hospitals

BTS says 48% are still using overflow beds introduced for the same period last year

The Guardian, 2 Dec 2019

More than half of hospitals have opened extra beds to help them cope with the NHS winter crisis amid an influx of patients with potentially fatal breathing problems.

Many of the so-called escalation beds are already occupied by people suffering from flu, pneumonia or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease exacerbated by the arrival of very cold weather in many parts of the UK.

The British Thoracic Society (BTS), which represents specialist lung doctors and nurses, has found that 52% of UK hospitals have already created extra bed capacity to help them prepare for the imminent surge in winter demand.

In addition, almost half (48%) have kept open and are still using the overflow beds they created last winter, in a sign that the sustained pressure the NHS is under is not confined to December, January and February.

“As the winter season starts, life is already really tough at the coal-face of the NHS,” said Prof Jon Bennett, the chair of the BTS.

It’s a sign of the intense year-round pressure that the NHS is under that more than half of hospitals have already opened extra ‘winter beds’ to help them cope with the cold season – and that many haven’t closed them from last year.

“We are already hearing of rising numbers of people being admitted to hospital with potentially fatal lung and breathing problems who require specialist support.

“[While] an under-resourced NHS lung workforce is working tirelessly to provide the best possible care in the circumstances … we just can’t carry on like this long term.” [...]

“In recent years the NHS has defied the odds and somehow managed to cope despite warnings about the impact of winter pressures. This time it is heading into what is likely to be the worst winter since modern records began in the eye of a perfect storm,” said Siva Anandaciva, chief analyst at the King’s Fund thinktank, in a new blog.

“The NHS is heading into winter in unusually bad shape” because it has not had any respite from an unusually busy summer and also because ministers have provided no extra money for winter pressures, he added. [...]

The Guardian disclosed last week that hospitals in England have the smallest number of beds available on record.

NHS England admitted recently that bed occupancy figures in July, August and September were the worst for the time of year since records began.

So yes, a MAJOR global health crisis is underway; a long-term, ongoing health crisis, and one caused partly by environmental factors and partly by feckless government/resource management. In this context - the truly horrifying background context, which the vast majority are only tangentially becoming aware of because of their recently redirected attention onto this particular outbreak - COVID-19 is just one more feather on scales that were already beyond overloaded with problems: tens of millions of kids with autism and other developmental disorders; hundreds of millions of cancer patients; tens or maybe hundreds of millions of people with mutated or potentially mutating vaccine-delivered viruses in their systems; exploding rates of heart attacks, diabetes and autoimmune diseases, etc etc.

Now read carefully what the WHO is actually saying about COVID-19:

Statnews.com, 25 Feb 2020

One of the hopes of people watching China’s coronavirus outbreak was that the alarming picture of its lethality is probably exaggerated because a lot of mild cases are likely being missed.

But on Tuesday, a World Health Organization expert suggested that does not appear to be the case. Bruce Aylward, who led an international mission to China to learn about the virus and China’s response, said the specialists did not see evidence that a large number of mild cases of the novel disease called Covid-19 are evading detection. [...]

If large numbers of mild or virtually symptom-free cases are evading detection, that would suggest that estimates of the proportion of people who might end up in ICUs or might die during a Covid-19 epidemic would be lower than what has been seen to date in China.

“What [the data] support is that sure, there may be a few asymptomatic cases … but there’s probably not huge transmission beyond what you can actually see clinically,” Aylward said.

Ok, but on what data is he basing that claim? We'll see it below...

The claim was quickly challenged by an infectious diseases expert who serves on a committee that advises the WHO’s health emergencies program.

Gary Kobinger, director of the Infectious Disease Research Center at Laval University in Quebec, said it would be highly unusual for there not to be mild or symptom-free cases that are being missed. He pointed to the fact that outbreaks have popped up in countries far from China — including Iran and Italy — because people with mild infections were not detected and traveled to other places.

“There are mild cases that are undetected. This is why it’s spreading. Otherwise it would not be spreading because we would know where those cases are and they would be contained and that would be the end of it,” said Kobinger, who insisted that mild, undetected infections cannot be ruled out until people who haven’t been diagnosed with the illness can be tested for antibodies to the virus.

Those kinds of tests, called serology tests, are just becoming available in China, Aylward said.

“As long as we do not have good serology data, I think that it is completely speculative to say that there are no undetected cases,” Kobinger said.

Now here comes Aylward's reason for assuming that there are very few undetected cases out there...

Aylward pointed to an analysis from Guangdong province suggesting that, at least there, most of the infections were coming to the attention of health authorities.

When the virus started to spread in Guangdong — the province where the 2002-2003 SARS outbreak began — worried people flooded fever clinics to be tested. Of 320,000 tests performed, just under 0.5% were positive for the virus at the peak of transmission there, he said — which suggests that only 1 case out of 200 was being missed.

Transmission of the virus has subsided in Guangdong, and the number of positive tests at the fever clinics has declined; now only about 1 in 5,000 people tested at the fever clinics is positive for the virus, he said.

Ok, sounds convincing. But which of these two is correct; the WHO's Aylward, or the WHO's Kobinger?

Aylward thinks the vast majority of cases are being recorded, therefore the case-to-fatality rates (CFR) being calculated based on these 'numbers of confirmed cases' are largely accurate. The evidence he cites is the above rate of positive tests for COVID-19 found in people in Guangdong province.

But his colleague Kobinger disagrees with ruling out large numbers of people who test negative because those test results are based on tests for genetic evidence of the virus. Here's the catch with that: only serology tests for antibodies conducted on random samples of the population not displaying symptoms can provide the realistic baseline number for how endemic this virus is in the community.

Why is this distinction important? This article explains the difference between these two types of testing:

Current tests for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, look for genetic material of the virus, for instance in saliva or nasal, oral, or anal swabs, using the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). They have one huge drawback: They only give a positive result when the virus is still present. The tests can’t identify people who went through an infection, recovered, and cleared the virus from their bodies.

It's this cohort that they need to account for before attempting to calculate the true CFRs. Serology tests on the general population have apparently just recently begun in China and Singapore. But Chinese hospitals 'on the front-line' were conducting in-house serological tests on everyone coming to them to be checked out. Guess what they found: most people were 'negative' for presence of the virus, but "almost all" were positive for the antibodies!

And there's more. Recall the high numbers of medical workers coming down with 'illness from COVID-19' in China? Well, case-tracking revealed them to have mostly contracted the illness from the wider community, NOT at the hospitals they were working at!!!

statnews.com, 6 Mar 2020

With this new disease, more than 2,000 health workers have become ill. But Maria Van Kerkhove, who heads the World Health Organization’s emerging diseases and zoonoses unit, said in a recent interview it seems like most of them were infected at home — something she acknowledged came as a surprise.

“Given our experience with SARS and MERS, I was expecting that there would be large hospital outbreaks,” she said. “But even among the health care worker infections that have been reported to date, when they went back and did interviews with them and then looked at exposures, it’s likely that most of those exposures were in the community rather than in health care facilities.” [...]

If they find antibodies to the virus in the blood of people who never made the case list, that will change the math. [...]

Researchers have been working feverishly to develop the tests needed to do this kind of research. China has recently licensed a couple of serology tests and Singaporean researchers have developed one as well. More will come on board soon.

“These types of studies should be conducted now,” she said. “This is one of the major things that needs to be done now. And everywhere. Not just in China. In the U.S., in Italy, in Iran — that would give us a better understanding of where this virus is and if we’re truly missing a large number of cases,” she said.

Until we have population based sero-surveys, we really don’t truly know.

They don't know, and yet the WHO just today formally declared this a 'pandemic'. :rolleyes:
 
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