The Mecca Mystery: Probing the Black Hole at the Heart of Muslim History by Peter Townsend

[Nostradamus]

On the origin of this "black stone", I see 2 main options:

- It is a piece of "meteorite" recovered during a cataclysmic event that occurred shortly before the birth of Mohammed (the Sura "The Elephant" seems to keep a record of it)

- It is a piece of meteorite relating to an older event


The 2 hypotheses are not exclusive. We know how old the tradition of venerating meteorites is, especially in this geographical area.

There is an event that intrigues me. The emperor Elagabal, son of Septimius Severus, transported on a chariot "a black stone fallen from the sky" to Rome. This refers us to Syria, which is perhaps a clue. This event is represented on Roman coins made in Antioch. Another coin of Uranius Antoninus shows a temple dedicated to Elagabal, a Syrian "mountain-god": we also see the sacred stone.

Was it this sacred Syrian stone that later moved to Mecca?

But what intrigues me the most is to know why touching a comet is associated with strange powers. We find traces of this tradition also among the Celts, for example among the Irish. I suppose that the electro-magnetic charge of a cometary debris is likely to cause phenomena?

 

[Pierre]

But what intrigues me the most is to know why touching a comet is associated with strange powers. We find traces of this tradition also among the Celts, for example among the Irish. I suppose that the electro-magnetic charge of a cometary debris is likely to cause phenomena?

An example of strange phenomena is atmospheric plasma discharge. Since the dawn of history comets have been associated with atmospheric plasma discharge, plague and diseases. A series of books called the “Mawangdui Silk” was compiled in 300 BC but it list events as far back as 1,500 BC and describes in detail 29 different comet shapes and the kind of disasters, including plagues and other diseases, that they were believed to cause:

© Public Domain
Excerpt from the Mawangdui Silk showing various comet shapes and their meaning​

But there is way more, electromagnetic fields, and their modulation via comets, can and do modify our connection with the information Field and the morphogenic Field. A whole chapter (to be published) is dedicated to this topic in "Mass extinction, evolutionary Leap and Viral Information".

 

[thorbiorn]

On the origin of this "black stone", I see 2 main options:

After having seen the latest pictures, I wonder if one can assume what is left is even a meteorite. It may have been, but now? If the original stone had certain properties, and somebody with power over the area believed it, what might happen if the stone disappeared temporarily and was "returned"? Nothing, as the equivalent of fact-checkers would make sure people understood and believed what they needed to.

The honouring of stones in ancient Rome

There is an event that intrigues me. The emperor Elagabal, son of Septimius Severus, transported on a chariot "a black stone fallen from the sky" to Rome. This refers us to Syria, which is perhaps a clue. This event is represented on Roman coins made in Antioch. Another coin of Uranius Antoninus shows a temple dedicated to Elagabal, a Syrian "mountain-god": we also see the sacred stone.

I suspect you rewrote from the French Wiki. Would this story from the English Wiki about Elagabulus be about the same event?

The cult stone or baetyl was brought to Rome by the Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus, who, before his accession, was the hereditary high priest at Emesa and was commonly called Elagabalus after the deity.[9] The Syrian deity was assimilated with the Roman sun god known as Sol and later Sol Invictus ("the unconquered Sun").[10]

And further there was:

A temple called the Elagabalium was built on the east face of the Palatine Hill to house the holy stone of the Emesa temple, a black conical meteorite.[11] Herodian writes of that stone:

This stone is worshipped as though it were sent from heaven; on it there are some small projecting pieces and markings that are pointed out, which the people would like to believe are a rough picture of the sun, because this is how they see them.[12]

Looking up baetyl, there was:

Baetylus (also Baetyl, Bethel, or Betyl, from Semitic bet el "house of god") are sacred stones that were supposedly endowed with life, or gave access to a deity. According to ancient sources, at least some of these objects of worship were meteorites, which were dedicated to the gods or revered as symbols of the gods themselves.[1]

Other accounts suggest that contact with them could give access to epiphanic experiences of the deity. The baetyl has been described by Wendy Doniger as "the parent form for altars and iconic statuary".[2] In general the baetyl was believed to have something inherent in its own nature that made it sacred, rather than becoming sacred by human intervention, such as carving it into a cult image. Some baetyls were left in their natural state, but others worked on by sculptors. The exact definition of a baetyl, as opposed to other types of sacred stones, "cult stones" and so on, is rather vague both in ancient and modern sources.[3] In some contexts, especially relating to Nabataean sites like Petra, the term is commonly used for shaped and carved stelae.[4]

They had a role in most regions of the ancient Near East and Greek and Roman religion, as well as other cultures.

In the above excerpt, there was mention of Petra, and that town has been mentioned already:

Townsend's ideas about the historicity of Mecca are in line with Dan Gibson's. I admit that the hypothesis is relevant : moving the Kaaba from Petra to Mecca.

It is as if, we have come a full circle—in the discussing of the topic of the black stone in Mecca.

Merkabah - Kaaba
If I go back to the name above, Baetyl, sacred stones, there was a session where the meaning of Merkabah was discussed:

Session 15 April 2000

April 15, 2000 Ark, Laura, Frank, Terry, Jan, Guest Johann M, Guest Stephanie Q: Hello. A: Hello. Q: And who do we have with us this evening? A: Yojon. Q: And where do you transmit through? A: Cassiopaea. Q: (T) We have guests here tonight... (L) Yes, you guys have anything to...

cassiopaea.org

Q: (L) This is something I have always wanted to get into a session, but I keep forgetting it. So, I wrote it down so I wouldn't forget. What is a "Merkabah?" All these New Age types are talking about it all over the place, and I just want to know if the standard interpretation is anything close to the reality. What is a Merkabah?

A: A creative creation.

Q: (L) Are you saying...

A: As were...

Q: (L) You didn't let me finish my question!

A: We heard it in you.

Q: (L) Well, just to get the question on the record, it was are all these people making all this stuff up about what the Merkabah is?

A: But then again, what is made up and why? It is not so simple!

Q: (L) In ancient literature, something called a Merkabah is talked about, but the definition of this extremely mysterious thing has been lost down through the centuries. There have been many "explanations" from such sources as the Midrash - Jewish commentaries - but there is even argument there. It seems that, even then, nobody knew what it was. But now, we have all these New Age folks coming along who have decided that they know what it is, and it is variously described as rotating double tetrahedrons...

A: If no one knows what it is, that is as good as any other explanation.

Q: (L) I want to know what the ancients who wrote about it meant? What is the definition of the word as the ancient writers used it?

A: The original definition predates this.

Q: (L) What is the original definition that predated the ancient writings that we have access to?

A: What do you think?

Q: (L) What? Well, it's a curious word because it is composed of two words or even three: mer kaba or mer ka ba. If we think of it as three part word, we have the Egyptian Ka, which is like the astral body, and the Ba which is similar to the Ka. I guess you could think of them as the astral body and the genetic body. Then there is the Ab which is the sort of principle element of the life in man - like the part that is of God or the soul. The Ab was represented as a red stone. It was the part of the man that expressed desire, lust, courage, wisdom, feeling, sense and intelligence. So, all of them together sort of expresses an abstract creative principle Kaaba is Arabic for cube, and it is the square stone building in which the Black Stone is housed in Mecca. It was supposed to have been built by Ishmael and Abraham. So with Mer, Ka, Ab, and Ba, we have a cube made up of the principle parts of the etheric self, and housing a stone. Soul stone? Mother stone?

A: By god, she's got it!

Q: (L) Okay, we've got the soul or mother stone. Or the mother of all stones. Now that we have a definition, what was it?

A: The Matriarch Stone.

Q: (L) Is the Matriarch Stone the one in Mecca?

A: Symbolism reigns supreme here.

Q: (T) Is this also the Philosopher's Stone?

A: "Stone" to those you perceive as ancients symbolized communication from "a higher source."

Q: (L) What is it about a stone that made the ancients associate it with communication?

A: Radio waves.

Q: (L) How did radio waves interact with the stone? Were they recorded by the stone; transmitted by the stone?

A: Transmission.

Q: (T) Crystals are stones. Crystals are used for radio transmissions.

A: Yes.

 

[CommieBlockGuru]

Has anyone read Hagarism?

The thesis there is that Islam was created by the Jews to wage war on Rome and Europeans in general.

It seems to line up with the theses' of the authors' mentioned ITT.

 

[happyliza]

What I think we need to keep in mind about books that attempt to explain the "rise of radical Islam" over the last few decades is that the authors' reason for writing them cannot be disconnected from global events of the last 25 or so years. To understand a recently arisen political/religious phenomena, you would think it natural to look at the previous era - in this case, the period from the start of the 20th century to the 1980s - to understand what was happening directly preceding the appearance of the phenomena and perhaps understand the conditions that helped to give rise to it. Yet authors of these books don't do that, instead, they jump back 1,400 years to see what was happening with Muhammad and then 'extrapolate' forward the 1400 years since then. That doesn't seem like a reasonable or objective approach and to me suggests an agenda.

"Radical Islam" today is not fundamentally a religious phenomenon, it is a POLITICAL one. Religion is just the gloss that lends legitimacy an acts as an attractor to suck people in. There is not ONE major event in the 'calendar' of radical Islam over the past 40 years that does not have the fingerprints of "Western values" all over it. Explain radical Islam to me in that context first, strip it away, and then talk about Islam and Muslims today. The problem is you can't do that in any realistic way because many Muslims and their thinking today are a product of that era and you simply can't dissociate the two. But you can do it theoretically, and when you do, you realize that there probably wouldn't be much that is interesting (or certainly inflammatory) to say. And you would be unlikely to sell many books on the topic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not an apologist for Islam or Muslims, I'm just not inclined to take the bait that is being offered where I should 'pick a side'. I'm all for exposing the truth (or lack of it) as regards major religions, but I draw the line at lending my support (in whatever way) to what looks like a clear 'divide and conquer' agenda. The "problem" in the world today (and perhaps always) is psychopaths in positions of power who instinctively know that setting normal humans at each others' throats is the best way to ensure they do not identify the real source of the problem, and direct their energies towards dealing with it.

Just like they intentionally set the Shia and Sunnis at each other and tried to foment the differences for political purposes?

 

[thorbiorn]

On this topic, there is a lecture Two New Findings That Mohammed Didn't Exist | Dr. Jay Smith
He argues this list of points regarding Muhammad:

At the end there are some reflections:

His approach is justified, but what is missing from my perspective as an observer is that many of the arguments he uses against Mecca,. Muhammad and the Qur'an can also be levelled against Christianity and the Bible. The difference is, as shown in From Paul to Mark, that something will be still be standing. I don't think his conclusion is entirely wrong, but it is certainly different than commonly portrayed.

Anyway, as an example of how he argues one point that of Mecca, there is:

Would it be possible to condense some of the points from Paul to Mark into a similar presentation? One issue is the case is very complex.

 

[Voyageur]

His approach is justified, but what is missing from my perspective as an observer is that many of the arguments he uses against Mecca,. Muhammad and the Qur'an can also be levelled against Christianity and the Bible. The difference is, as shown in From Paul to Mark, that something will be still be standing. I don't think his conclusion is entirely wrong, but it is certainly different than commonly portrayed.

Smith would not like that type of mirror.



"Passed these criticisms"? Who says?

Which Christ, Paul's Christ?

Recently, I've become hounded by an evangelic relative over the Middle East business. Now it is perfectly fine to blast all this in my ear (don't mention Gaza), however, to offer up any type of a soft response would be met with unbelief. And yet, to this relative, I'm simply an unbeliever to even ask the very smallest of questions, let alone risk being called the anti you-know-what. Don't mention Bibi, or also risk getting swamped in sermons from Avi Abelow and all the slur's that accompany this orbit. Thus, although maybe for others, It does not seem possible to respectfully navigate this pretty clear subject, even if just one-on-one, and dare not against more than one. So, might as well just throw in an anchor and say nothing, or tack to an opposite horizon.

Is there a book on how to talk to Raptureites (sic) Christians? Maybe, yet I don't think so, just as there are no books allowed by sane thinking Jews talking to ultra Zionists (they are simply slurred with the self-hating jew label), and suppose the same is true of Islam.

Confession, I do have a soft spot for Sheikh Imran Hosein(on YT here).

Have a look back at the C's, exchange in 2018:

Q: (L) Yes. Speaking of space rocks... [laughter]

(Andromeda) Segue!

(L) Yes... I guess I'm gonna put the cat among the pigeons. I've got two topics in my mind. The first one is the black hole of Mecca. Now, this guy Peter Townsend - which is probably a pseudonym because he probably won't write under his own name since he fears for his life - says that Mecca didn't exist and that Islam as a religion started out in very strange ways. Basically, he says that Islam is not a very friendly religion according to his way of thinking. Now, I don't think we need to ask any questions about the research he did, because that's all pretty plain and clear. But his conclusions are that Islam needs to be reformed or something needs to be done about it because it's not a very friendly bunch of people at present due to the beliefs that are inculcated into them from birth. Aside from the teachings in Islam that all other religions are wrong and only Muslims are right, and Muslims are entitled to kill non-believers, he's basically suggesting that inherent in Islam is a corruption, that the religion itself is inherently bad. But we've been discussing it, and we don't see that there is that much difference between one fraudulent religion and another. I mean, Christianity and Judaism are both pretty bad in some ways. So, I don't see... Is Islam inherently corrupt and a bad influence in general?

A: Consider carefully the developmental pathways of the three test cases. First you have Judaism. It began as a widespread cult of comet/storm god worship. It was reformulated to meet the needs of a dispossessed people and encourage solidarity among them. Christianity had a dual beginning. First was an apocalyptic cult of intolerance and violence. Second was a message of spiritual transformation based on the life of an extraordinary man full of mercy. Islam is the miscegenation of the worst of both. How can there be any positive elements out of complete falsehood?

Q: (L) So, you're saying that Islam is a mix of the worst parts of Judaism and Christianity? [Review of last answer] Is it possible that there was a strong influence of the Dead Sea Scroll people on the formulation of Islam?

A: Indeed!

Q: (L) And based on the studies of the Dead Sea Scrolls people, that was a bunch of schizoid psychopaths.

(Joe) Were they Jews?

(L) Yeah. They were Jews that thought all other Jews were corrupt and only they had the truth, and they were all itching to go out and kill everybody who didn’t believe the way they did. There is a whole field of studies devoted to the Dead Sea Scrolls and related texts such as the Books of Enoch and Enochian apocalypticism. I’ve got quite a bit of it covered in my text on Paul, Josephus and Jesus.

(Joe) So they were the origin of the first wave of Christianity. And then Caesar came along.

(L) Well, actually, Paul came along with his vision of the merciful savior, Caesar. This was the background to the several puzzling references in the New Testament to a conflict between Paul and the “Jerusalem Christians”. There was the Dead Sea Scrolls types, Zealots, etc, and then Paul. Again, I’ve covered this pretty well in my yet-to-be-published book {link} on the topic. And don’t forget that the creators of Islam borrowed heavily from the stories of Abraham and Moses which the Jews invented with models of real historical figures of Greek and Egyptian history back when the OT was written in about 272 BC. All of that is discussed by Gmirkin and Wajdenbaum. (Argonauts of the Desert etc.} The inventors of Islam didn't know that they were creating stories based on already invented stories, etc.

(Joe) So the worst of both Judaism and early Christianity would be intolerance and violence and storm god worship. Islam more than any of the religions is influenced by cataclysms in that sense, no?

A: Yes

Q: (Joe) At the time that it appeared, was there stuff going on? It was the Dark Ages, right?

A: Yes

Q: (L) So that would give a perfect explanation for why they were attracted to that apocalyptic literature. It was a time when it had the most meaning.

(Joe) And it's relatively recent.

(L) And also if some of these people like Heinsohn and Fomenko are right about years being inserted into the historical timeline, it could have been even more recent and more close together than we think. History is such a muddle because of all the manipulations.

(Andromeda) So Islam is based mostly on fear and avoidance, whereas even Judaism had the idea of solidarity behind it. And Christianity had spiritual development. Islam has none of that.

(L) No, there doesn’t appear to be anything about real spiritual development in Islam other than trying to model oneself on Muhammed and “submitting” to his alleged declarations; that’s a bit problematical when you find out that the original model of Muhammed was probably a Dead Sea Scrolls inspired apocalypticist, likely a schizoid psychopathic fanatic. Go out and kill some people and you get grapes in the afterlife, not naked women. You get grapes.

(Andromeda) How many grapes? [laughter]

(L) 72!! Well, that was one of things that was really surprising. Apparently, there was a mistranslation or misunderstanding of the word somehow, and so you only get 72 grapes. [laughter]

(Andromeda) A lot of people are gonna be very disappointed! [laughter]

Very messy historical business.

Again:

His approach is justified, but what is missing from my perspective as an observer is that many of the arguments he uses against Mecca,.

It might be worth mentioning the exchange on Mecca, too (2009 - the word Merkabah leads it off):

Q: (L) In ancient literature, something called a Merkabah is talked about, but the definition of this extremely mysterious thing has been lost down through the centuries. There have been many "explanations" from such sources as the Midrash - Jewish commentaries - but there is even argument there. It seems that, even then, nobody knew what it was. But now, we have all these New Age folks coming along who have decided that they know what it is, and it is variously described as rotating double tetrahedrons...
A: If no one knows what it is, that is as good as any other explanation.
Q: (L) I want to know what the ancients who wrote about it meant? What is the definition of the word as the ancient writers used it?
A: The original definition predates this.
Q: (L) What is the original definition that predated the ancient writings that we have access to?
A: What do you think?
Q: (L) What? Well, it's a curious word because it is composed of two words or even three: mer kaba or mer ka ba. If we think of it as three part word, we have the Egyptian Ka, which is like the astral body, and the Ba which is similar to the Ka. I guess you could think of them as the astral body and the genetic body. Then there is the Ab which is the sort of principle element of the life in man - like the part that is of God or the soul. The Ab was represented as a red stone. It was the part of the man that expressed desire, lust, courage, wisdom, feeling, sense and intelligence. So, all of them together sort of expresses an abstract creative principle. Kaaba is Arabic for cube, and it is the square stone building in which the Black Stone is housed in Mecca. It was supposed to have been built by Ishmael and Abraham. So with Mer, Ka, Ab, and Ba, we have a cube made up of the principle parts of the etheric self, and housing a stone. Soul stone? Mother stone?
A: By god, she's got it!
Q: (L) Okay, we've got the soul or mother stone. Or the mother of all stones. Now that we have a definition, what was it?
A: The Matriarch Stone.
Q: (L) Is the Matriarch Stone the one in Mecca?
A: Symbolism reigns supreme here.
Q: (T) Is this also the Philosopher's Stone?
A: "Stone" to those you perceive as ancients symbolized communication from "a higher source."
Q: (L) What is it about a stone that made the ancients associate it with communication?
A: Radio waves.
Q: (L) How did radio waves interact with the stone? Were they recorded by the stone; transmitted by the stone?
A: Transmission.