External Considering and Good Manners

Muxel said:

I didn't mean any offense by it, I'm sorry. I know you meant well, ...

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Uh, oh! :) Watch out for those words! "She means well, but..."

I just thought Laura had made an error of perception and I wanted to set the record straight.

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Why? What is the root for this "want"? Is it really that important?

I have decided that it is not my job to correct other people. If they say things that are incorrect, or if they are missing "the big picture", I am not required to tell them otherwise. Maybe I will. Maybe I won't. But it's my choice, and I don't HAVE TO say anything. I try to think about what is actually helpful. If someone asks me directly, then yes, I will answer as well as I can.

Maybe I used to feel that I HAD TO jump in a conversation and correct someone's errors. In effect, if they wanted, they could easily manipulate me, they could force me to spend my energy on their bad information. Now I ask, "why should I allow them control over me?"

Mr Premise said:

I joke with my teenagers that I have spent every single mealtime with them since they got out of the high chair telling them to sit properly (legs forward, not sitting on your legs sideways, etc.). It a huge energy investment but we insist upon it. And all the other common courtesy stuff.

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Exactly. And this is one of the reasons why narcissism and bad manners are rampant in our society: people just don't want to take the time to educate their children. It's not convenient. It's too tiring, apparently. I have friends who say 'yes I know that what my child does in not OK but when I come home from work, all tired and stressed out, I just don't have the energy to say no to her. It's just easier for everyone if I let her do what she wants.' I try to explain that this time spent caring and not letting the child have their way is a long-term investment. But I guess people are so used to instant gratification that long-term investment no longer rings any bell.

loreta said:

Good manners is also not judging others.

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loreta, with all due respect, I wonder if this is not taking it a bit too far. Discernment and judgment are very closely intertwined and I believe are crucial in ascertaining correct awareness of people and situations that are good and bad. We can't have discernment with out using our good judgment based on our current knowledge and awareness. With the darkness of today's culture it is extremely important to utilize our discernment in sizing up people that we meet for our own protection. We also use discernment in most of our daily tasks, especially after leaving the comfort of our homes, and interacting with the public at large, or driving our car, traveling, or any other activity/sport.

If you meant not judging others for being on the path they are on, and releasing others to utilize their own free will. I would agree with you.

But if we were to teach our children to "not to judge others" per say... they may not have the discernment necessary at the appropriate time to remove themselves from a dangerous situation, or person.

Hope this isn't off topic. I'm enjoying this thread, but I felt a need to point this out.

On topic- yes it's creepy how many kids are raised to have no manners. However, when I meet an adult who is rude and manner-less, I don't feel sorry for them and blame their upbringing as children. I hold adults accountable for their own actions. When a child leaves the nest at whatever age, they are then free to gain the appropriate education and skills, over and above what they have already been exposed to as children. Some have the wherewithal to do just that, and some don't. Politeness is not rocket science, it is something easily learned with social interaction, with or without a college education. But I believe it is something easily learned at some point in our life span, if we are open to that direction, ie., ("a caring modality" -paraphrasing from a quote from one of Laura's posts in this thread). Some people may not learn it until later in life. Everybody is on their own path and learning at their own speed. Sometimes it can seem like nobody is up to speed when it comes to politeness but that's never an excuse not to be polite ourselves. When we are polite we are setting examples for those who haven't quite learned it yet.

Thanks you Laura, a great reminder, that we are all family here, and we all have certain responsibility to treat each as your post recommends with patience, and respect.

In this neck of the woods, everyone extends a hardy hello, and how are doing. It is the French custom to even exchange, a cheek to check kiss if the relationship has been a long established one. And it is very refreshing.

But as in the states there are time's of just saying hello, where the reaction is of one of suspicion, given the situation of the current run of petty crimes, that follow the greeting. So it take's a lot not to be chiseled by this discipline, of hostility towards others,

It easy to understand how guarded people have become. But as time's grow more, and more precarious, it is almost like this condtion of external consideration is becoming distant in peoples minds, as they coup with struggles of everyday life to survive.

It is the system that wants us to fear each other, as to respect each other.

It is not like i do not see the good in people in the states, and it is like stated, "Treat people like want to be treated".

A little love goes a long way. No matter how extreme it gets.

I know that there have been times when i have not answered post response, and there is no excuse for it, none. Not even if i did not know what to say, i just should have expressed that thought as to leave it blank. Apologies to those i neglected to respond too.

I believe the Prayer of the Soul is always a great guide stone in practicing of external consideration.

Jasmine said:

On topic- yes it's creepy how many kids are raised to have no manners. However, when I meet an adult who is rude and manner-less, I don't feel sorry for them and blame their upbringing as children. I hold adults accountable for their own actions. When a child leaves the nest at whatever age, they are then free to gain the appropriate education and skills, over and above what they have already been exposed to as children. Some have the wherewithal to do just that, and some don't. Politeness is not rocket science, it is something easily learned with social interaction, with or without a college education. But I believe it is something easily learned at some point in our life span, if we are open to that direction, ie., ("a caring modality" -paraphrasing from a quote from one of Laura's posts in this thread). Some people may not learn it until later in life. Everybody is on their own path and learning at their own speed. Sometimes it can seem like nobody is up to speed when it comes to politeness but that's never an excuse not to be polite ourselves. When we are polite we are setting examples for those who haven't quite learned it yet.

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Speaking for myself and RL friends only here, learning manners and all else in life after leaving the nest takes a few years. I know people my age who had a great upbringing, and from say age 18 onwards they dealt with social situations very smoothly. I would always wonder how they always knew what to do and what to say, because lacking this education myself, I was always unsure of how to behave in any situation. This is even worse when you're so narcissisticly wounded and inwardly focused that you can't get close to seeing yourself as others see you, and learning from example.

It took me around 3 years of living out on my own, meeting new people, getting jobs, speaking with elders, interacting with professionals etc., for me to learn how to act around others and not be so awkward about it, at which point each new situation can be intuited through common sense. And a major motivation for me to learn all this was my 'make nice' program. So it is understandable why some people never really learn manners, because they never even consider the idea of considering other people, it simply doesn't occur to them without a good role model to teach.

Sounds to me like some folks might enjoy reading "Miss Manners".

http://www.missmanners.com/

These will give you a taste of her style (she can be wildly funny while being excruciatingly correct!)

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-09-02/lifestyle/41689439_1_ancestry-dear-miss-manners-niece

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-09-13/lifestyle/42089610_1_noise-ordinance-power-tools-neighbor

Books:

http://www.amazon.com/Manners-Excruciatingly-Correct-Behavior-Freshly/dp/0393058743/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1268702908&sr=8-1-fkmr0

http://www.amazon.com/Miss-Manners-Guide-Domestic-Tranquility/dp/0609805398/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268673096&sr=1-5

http://www.amazon.com/Manners-Guide-Rearing-Perfect-Children/dp/0743244176

Mrs. Tigersoap said:

Mr Premise said:

I joke with my teenagers that I have spent every single mealtime with them since they got out of the high chair telling them to sit properly (legs forward, not sitting on your legs sideways, etc.). It a huge energy investment but we insist upon it. And all the other common courtesy stuff.

Click to expand...

Exactly. And this is one of the reasons why narcissism and bad manners are rampant in our society: people just don't want to take the time to educate their children. It's not convenient. It's too tiring, apparently. I have friends who say 'yes I know that what my child does in not OK but when I come home from work, all tired and stressed out, I just don't have the energy to say no to her. It's just easier for everyone if I let her do what she wants.' I try to explain that this time spent caring and not letting the child have their way is a long-term investment. But I guess people are so used to instant gratification that long-term investment no longer rings any bell.

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Good point! Bad manners & instant gratification seem to come in pairs - double trouble.

There are many factors osit that play into this, culture being one. Educating children & caring, however, is a BIG one. Doing so to one's ability involves educating & caring for themselves - which they may not have been taught, perpetuating the cycle. Some people work long hours, or simply put their needs/what they think matters to them before the child.

curious_richard said:

Muxel said:

I didn't mean any offense by it, I'm sorry. I know you meant well, ...

Click to expand...

Uh, oh! :) Watch out for those words! "She means well, but..."

I just thought Laura had made an error of perception and I wanted to set the record straight.

Click to expand...

Why? What is the root for this "want"? Is it really that important?

I have decided that it is not my job to correct other people. If they say things that are incorrect, or if they are missing "the big picture", I am not required to tell them otherwise. Maybe I will. Maybe I won't. But it's my choice, and I don't HAVE TO say anything. I try to think about what is actually helpful. If someone asks me directly, then yes, I will answer as well as I can.

Maybe I used to feel that I HAD TO jump in a conversation and correct someone's errors. In effect, if they wanted, they could easily manipulate me, they could force me to spend my energy on their bad information. Now I ask, "why should I allow them control over me?"

Click to expand...

It's a tough call, and really requires one to see the situation clearly. There are times when correcting someone can be the most externally considerate thing one can do, as it may spare further embarrassment or prevent further, and possibly greater, errors. It can also be a difficult thing to do, as it can cause some discomfort for both parties, showing an error.

I think it's important to see one's own motivations for making the correction. Are you seeing the other person and deciding what would be best for them (what would be best for me if the roles were reversed)? Or is the motivation coming from a "be right" program, an attempt to "one up" somebody, tarnish their image or hold some kind of power over them?

If someone in line in front of you has toilet paper stuck to the bottom of their shoe, do you say something to them? Or if a customer you're serving has food stuck in their teeth? When is it your place to say something and when is it overstepping bounds into rudeness?

Gimpy said:

The point is, there is a time and place for everything, but good manners will get you a lot further than rudeness, especially in The Work. When good manners and helpfulness only invites more bullying, then maybe it is time to bully back?

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I think its possible to take a stand without resorting to being a bully, the caveat to that is, will the bully listen to anything but force in kind?

In that case, being rude would qualify as externally considerate, otherwise the bully can't understand a thing being said. (osit.)

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Sometimes, the proper response to a bully is to stand your ground and "pop him in the nose HARD".

A situation arose several years back. I was with a friend at his friends' house. His friend and I got into a discussion of time. He was coming from the point of view of vector mathematics. "Okay, I get that...consider this." He wasn't about to "lose the argument". So I excused myself outside for a smoke. 2 minutes later he and my friend came outside still with the thread in hand, and he started laying in on me again for "not understanding" him. I asked him to chill a bit, he didn't. I looked at him with the "statue" face, and proceeded to leave the carport and walked down to the road to finish my smoke. He proceeded to follow me and continue the "argument". I walked off back up to the carport with "huffiness" in my step. Once again he followed and continued. At this point, after several attempts to back off, politely the first couple of times, I laid into him with a tongue lashing. He FINALLY got the hint. Also he was VERY embarrased in front of his GF. I did apologize for the embarrassment right away.

Kris

Carlisle said:

Jasmine said:

On topic- yes it's creepy how many kids are raised to have no manners. However, when I meet an adult who is rude and manner-less, I don't feel sorry for them and blame their upbringing as children. I hold adults accountable for their own actions. When a child leaves the nest at whatever age, they are then free to gain the appropriate education and skills, over and above what they have already been exposed to as children. Some have the wherewithal to do just that, and some don't. Politeness is not rocket science, it is something easily learned with social interaction, with or without a college education. But I believe it is something easily learned at some point in our life span, if we are open to that direction, ie., ("a caring modality" -paraphrasing from a quote from one of Laura's posts in this thread). Some people may not learn it until later in life. Everybody is on their own path and learning at their own speed. Sometimes it can seem like nobody is up to speed when it comes to politeness but that's never an excuse not to be polite ourselves. When we are polite we are setting examples for those who haven't quite learned it yet.

Click to expand...

Speaking for myself and RL friends only here, learning manners and all else in life after leaving the nest takes a few years. I know people my age who had a great upbringing, and from say age 18 onwards they dealt with social situations very smoothly. I would always wonder how they always knew what to do and what to say, because lacking this education myself, I was always unsure of how to behave in any situation. This is even worse when you're so narcissisticly wounded and inwardly focused that you can't get close to seeing yourself as others see you, and learning from example.

It took me around 3 years of living out on my own, meeting new people, getting jobs, speaking with elders, interacting with professionals etc., for me to learn how to act around others and not be so awkward about it, at which point each new situation can be intuited through common sense. And a major motivation for me to learn all this was my 'make nice' program. So it is understandable why some people never really learn manners, because they never even consider the idea of considering other people, it simply doesn't occur to them without a good role model to teach.

Click to expand...

I think this ties into being a good obyvatel and how a person can't really take part in the Work until they are able to manage their day-to-day affairs, maintain and keep a job, have good relations with their neighbours and so on. The wounding can really have an effect and being in the same environment where those older programs are constantly re-ignited could prevent a person from realizing what it means to be considerate and polite with others.

I didn't really start learning this until after I moved out from my parents mainly because the idea of living with them while disagreeing with their rules of conduct was, in and of itself, not good manners or externally considerate to them and kind of parasitic while living under the same roof. Now that I've created that space there's been more success in reengaging with good conduct and being more respectful and less of a chip on my shoulder.

It's been a process of unlearning what I was used to and the analogy of a bird's nest is so apt. You have to fly the coop at some time and either your taught the skills to build a nest or have to learn it through trial and error. Although some people never seem to learn manners regardless. They are probably of the Authoritarian Personality type or just so narcissistic or wounded they can't see past themselves and how their behavior affects others.

Turgon said:

Carlisle said:

Jasmine said:

On topic- yes it's creepy how many kids are raised to have no manners. However, when I meet an adult who is rude and manner-less, I don't feel sorry for them and blame their upbringing as children. I hold adults accountable for their own actions. When a child leaves the nest at whatever age, they are then free to gain the appropriate education and skills, over and above what they have already been exposed to as children. Some have the wherewithal to do just that, and some don't. Politeness is not rocket science, it is something easily learned with social interaction, with or without a college education. But I believe it is something easily learned at some point in our life span, if we are open to that direction, ie., ("a caring modality" -paraphrasing from a quote from one of Laura's posts in this thread). Some people may not learn it until later in life. Everybody is on their own path and learning at their own speed. Sometimes it can seem like nobody is up to speed when it comes to politeness but that's never an excuse not to be polite ourselves. When we are polite we are setting examples for those who haven't quite learned it yet.

Click to expand...

Speaking for myself and RL friends only here, learning manners and all else in life after leaving the nest takes a few years. I know people my age who had a great upbringing, and from say age 18 onwards they dealt with social situations very smoothly. I would always wonder how they always knew what to do and what to say, because lacking this education myself, I was always unsure of how to behave in any situation. This is even worse when you're so narcissisticly wounded and inwardly focused that you can't get close to seeing yourself as others see you, and learning from example.

It took me around 3 years of living out on my own, meeting new people, getting jobs, speaking with elders, interacting with professionals etc., for me to learn how to act around others and not be so awkward about it, at which point each new situation can be intuited through common sense. And a major motivation for me to learn all this was my 'make nice' program. So it is understandable why some people never really learn manners, because they never even consider the idea of considering other people, it simply doesn't occur to them without a good role model to teach.

Click to expand...

I think this ties into being a good obyvatel and how a person can't really take part in the Work until they are able to manage their day-to-day affairs, maintain and keep a job, have good relations with their neighbours and so on. The wounding can really have an effect and being in the same environment where those older programs are constantly re-ignited could prevent a person from realizing what it means to be considerate and polite with others.

I didn't really start learning this until after I moved out from my parents mainly because the idea of living with them while disagreeing with their rules of conduct was, in and of itself, not good manners or externally considerate to them and kind of parasitic while living under the same roof. Now that I've created that space there's been more success in reengaging with good conduct and being more respectful and less of a chip on my shoulder.

It's been a process of unlearning what I was used to and the analogy of a bird's nest is so apt. You have to fly the coop at some time and either your taught the skills to build a nest or have to learn it through trial and error. Although some people never seem to learn manners regardless. They are probably of the Authoritarian Personality type or just so narcissistic or wounded they can't see past themselves and how their behavior affects others.

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Yes Turgon, spot on. very good points. It baffles me that people go out into the world and at some point get jobs, and work all day/night with follow employees, clients, and peers, ect. and learn no manners at all? It's hard to believe that a person would not learn "some manners" at least. If they didn't have any concept of manners after out on their own and working after a few years, it would be a very lonely road of hard knocks. I think people learn a certain amount of manners just to get by and maintain working relationships with people so they can support themselves. With that said, it makes sense that after a certain age, people who are rude, and manner-less, are actually aware of manners, but choose not to use them. Or they don't realize the importance of using them, or perhaps they fall outside the above scenarios and have other reasons for not fully learning or using manners until later in life if ever. key phrase here: "they don't realize the importance of using them", hence Lauras post on this topic. In a micro environment such as this, people have to be reminded, myself included.

I think what good manners comes down to, from a purely psychological standpoint, is behaviour specifically designed to maintain the correct vagal tone with your audience. Dressing properly, being cooing and gentle, showing up at a party at the correct time, dealing with disputes in a correct manner, etc. all come down to (as many before emphasized) making others as comfortable as possible. Comfort has its own associations with cognitive accessibility, a smoothly running system one that is socially engaged and not in a splitting/defensive orientation.

It's opposite, rudeness, seems to be like a disrupting of that tonus, which naturally causes us to revert to a more fight-or-flight behaviour (calling somebody rude is itself saying this person is breaking boundaries and not considering others). Usually if it is a severe enough disruption, those who also call out someone for being rude, while chastising them, aren't considered rude because they did not contribute to the original disruption. They also validate the feelings of those who feel they are being assaulted by a lack of consideration, and in effect help restore the emotional solidarity felt prior to the rude interruption. This could be why Laura didn't feel bad for putting the righteous verbal hurt on the imbecilic auditor.

From this perspective, what constitutes good manners can vary between social groups. In some more sardonic friend circles I know, sarcasm and subtly insulting one another is just a form of play. If you were to derail those types of comments with the naive politeness you're used to showcasing around the elder's home, you would probably get awkward side-glances from people. So I often do need to give mixed company a cold reading to try and determine the types of behaviour they consider the least threatening, most welcoming, et cetera.

Personally though, as much as I try and keep people humming along hunky-dory with my good manners and such, a part of me wishes that people were less sensitive to disruptions of their vagal nerve stimulation from inconsequential garbage (e.g., if arriving at a party without a frock coat is enough to send guests into a splitting frenzy and thinking him/her rude, you really have to wonder about the stability of the rest of their instinctive substratum!) But codifying good manners into all these behaviour rules as was the fashion in Victorian times seems more to me a trait of more hysterical cultures. OSIT. By their standards, Diogenes of Sinope was a pretty rude guy, wasn't he? But he lived a more natural life than many contemporary Hellenics, and I'm sure a hunter-gatherer would find his behaviour far less rude than a regular Athenian.

Jasmine said:

loreta said:

Good manners is also not judging others.

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loreta, with all due respect, I wonder if this is not taking it a bit too far. Discernment and judgment are very closely intertwined and I believe are crucial in ascertaining correct awareness of people and situations that are good and bad. We can't have discernment with out using our good judgment based on our current knowledge and awareness. With the darkness of today's culture it is extremely important to utilize our discernment in sizing up people that we meet for our own protection. We also use discernment in most of our daily tasks, especially after leaving the comfort of our homes, and interacting with the public at large, or driving our car, traveling, or any other activity/sport.

If you meant not judging others for being on the path they are on, and releasing others to utilize their own free will. I would agree with you.

But if we were to teach our children to "not to judge others" per say... they may not have the discernment necessary at the appropriate time to remove themselves from a dangerous situation, or person.

Hope this isn't off topic. I'm enjoying this thread, but I felt a need to point this out.

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Discernment and judging are two different things. I was thinking, when writing the sentence, about my experience in Africa, how it is important no to judge others because they have different manners about many issues and good manners is not judging and accepting the others as they act, putting yourself in their culture and accepting it. I remember one simple situation: in Senegal you eat with your hands. For us to eat with your hands is bad manner, for them not. So when staying there you not judge this particular manner and you eat with your hands like them. Eating with your hand, in that case, becomes a good manner because you don't judge. Some men in Senegal refused to salute with women and don't give a handshake, so instead to judge this attitude you accepted it and accepting this attitude that can be perceive as a bad manner you don't judge it and say nothing. Your attitude, I think in that situation, is good manner also.

Discernment is different. Discernment is using your intelligence to perceive if something is wrong or not. If I see someone be brute with an animal or a kid, then I use my discernment. Discernment can save your life.

I have a friend that is obtuse and refuse to understand that her diet and how she feeds her family is almost mortal. I am not judging her. But my discernment is telling me that she is close like a clam and that if she continues with her diet her husband will died of high pressure one of these days. And that her kids (that are adults in fact) are very unhappy not because she is a bad mother (that would be judging her) but because they eat too much carbohydrates.My discernment is telling me that she is obtuse and my discernment is telling me that it is impossible for me to change her mind. So I don't judge her (I am not saying how bad she is, how ignorant and happy to be ignorant she can be, etc.) but I see how she is because of her ignorance and education and feel sorry for her and her family.

whitecoast said:

I think what good manners comes down to, from a purely psychological standpoint, is behaviour specifically designed to maintain the correct vagal tone with your audience. Dressing properly, being cooing and gentle, showing up at a party at the correct time, dealing with disputes in a correct manner, etc. all come down to (as many before emphasized) making others as comfortable as possible. Comfort has its own associations with cognitive accessibility, a smoothly running system one that is socially engaged and not in a splitting/defensive orientation.

Click to expand...

I think what good manners come down to is caring about other people, as Laura and a few others have mentioned in this thread. It's about treating others as you would like to be treated yourself, and primarily not about blending in or making a smoothly running system, although that is usually the result.

whitecoast said:

From this perspective, what constitutes good manners can vary between social groups. In some more sardonic friend circles I know, sarcasm and subtly insulting one another is just a form of play. If you were to derail those types of comments with the naive politeness you're used to showcasing around the elder's home, you would probably get awkward side-glances from people. So I often do need to give mixed company a cold reading to try and determine the types of behaviour they consider the least threatening, most welcoming, et cetera.

Click to expand...

The question is why sarcasm and subtly insulting behaviors are the norm in such groups to the extent that politeness gets awkward side-glances. From my experience, such groups usually consist of people with a need to maintain their egos and they do that by degrading others.

whitecoast said:

Personally though, as much as I try and keep people humming along hunky-dory with my good manners and such, a part of me wishes that people were less sensitive to disruptions of their vagal nerve stimulation from inconsequential garbage (e.g., if arriving at a party without a frock coat is enough to send guests into a splitting frenzy and thinking him/her rude, you really have to wonder about the stability of the rest of their instinctive substratum!) But codifying good manners into all these behaviour rules as was the fashion in Victorian times seems more to me a trait of more hysterical cultures. OSIT. By their standards, Diogenes of Sinope was a pretty rude guy, wasn't he? But he lived a more natural life than many contemporary Hellenics, and I'm sure a hunter-gatherer would find his behaviour far less rude than a regular Athenian.

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It seems to me that you did quite a bit of justification here. It may be good to ask why...

Bobo08 said:

I think what good manners come down to is caring about other people, as Laura and a few others have mentioned in this thread. It's about treating others as you would like to be treated yourself, and primarily not about blending in or making a smoothly running system, although that is usually the result.

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Hiya Bobo. Personally, I would be cautious about equating good manners with external considering. Good manners are necessary for external considering nine times out of ten, but they're not sufficient. One can be polite or good-mannered for internally considerate reasons - chiefly manifesting as the "be nice" program. Conversely, one can be rude or blunt for externally considerate reasons. The devil is in the details, as always. :)

The question is why sarcasm and subtly insulting behaviours are the norm in such groups to the extent that politeness gets awkward side-glances. From my experience, such groups usually consist of people with a need to maintain their egos and they do that by degrading others.

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Won't disagree with ya there. Like I mentioned re: Victorian times, what constitutes good manners/politeness depends on the conditioning of the group and the behaviours the group uses to determine whether to orient toward the individual in a social or defensive manner. Learning to navigate and blend into groups of various levels of virtue or ponerogenesis is just part of external considering. It's similar to using petty tyrants for growth, OSIT.

It seems to me that you did quite a bit of justification here. It may be good to ask why...

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Justifying... what exactly? My intent was just to make observations. If you think I was doing so for subjective reasons, by all means I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking so.