External Considering and Good Manners

[RflctnOfU]

Since I've already mentioned the topic of guest behavior, I went searching on the net to see if there were any concise articles with advice since it seems to me that some people just don't have a clue about these things (and we've had a few of them visiting here!) As I was reading one of the articles, I was thinking: wow, most of this would be good to remember all the time in just about any living situation, family, roommates, whatever. So, here it is:<snip>

It seems to me that most of the 'rules' once arrived at hosts house/dwelling can be distilled down to "make your presence invisible", osit.

Kris

 

[Gimpy]

It seems to me that most of the 'rules' once arrived at hosts house/dwelling can be distilled down to "make your presence invisible", osit.

Kris

A host is interested in you and your company, otherwise why extend the invitation?

I wouldn't say its about being invisible as much as being an enjoyable, engaged, companion to the house in question, with little stress and a lot of good conversation.

It breaks my heart sometimes to see how my sisters children prefer their phones and hand held games to talking to me or their uncle. They tell us they want to spend time with us. In reality? They're too afraid of 'missing something' on the phone, or that another pal is 'beating their score'. When I've mentioned how rude it is to play games or text when visiting someone, they do not have a clue what I'm talking about.

My youngest nephew summed his feelings up this way: "You're boring. Games are more fun than talking to you." He admitted that he only asked to spend time with us because his mother said he had to say so or she wouldn't let him have a new game he wanted to play.

That ended the visits, as it was clear to me that it was stressing everyone to pieces. We now restrict getting together to holidays when everyone knows what's expected and life proceeds smoother. (Yes, they play games and text throughout, but it is not happening in my house, and that's all right.) ;)

 

[mimimari]

Cynthia Steward walked into the store just as a customer was hitting full-throttle in an attempt to badger the owner into taking a sale item back for a full refund without a receipt. A group of customers who had been waiting to pay for their purchases had backed away from the counter, eyes averted. They looked uncomfortable and nervous.

When the owner found and printed out a copy of the original receipt proving that the item had indeed been sold at a discounted price, the agitated customer blew up. “You’re just trying to rip me off,” she screamed as she snatched her purchase off the counter and stormed toward the door. “I can’t believe you treat customers this way. I’m never coming back!”

As the door slammed, there was a collective sigh of relief and a ripple of nervous laughter. Steward knew exactly how everyone felt. Even though none of the vitriol had been directed at her, the 29-year-old manager from Quinton, N.J., had cringed as she heard the customer berating the store owner.

Rudeness, even if it’s not aimed at us, can derail a day. It can spoil a meal and ruin a good mood. It can hamstring creativity and hamper job performance. It makes us feel uncomfortable and conflicted: We don’t want to be involved, but we feel like we should be.

As it turns out, people can be so distressed by rudeness they’ll stop patronizing a business after witnessing one worker berate another, researchers reported in a study published in the August issue of the Journal of Consumer Research.

To see how employee rudeness affects consumers, the researchers set up an experiment in which volunteers were shown one of three videos. In one, the manager of a well-known bookstore chain nastily scolds a cashier for talking too long on the phone with a friend and making customers wait. In another, the manager politely asks the cashier to hang up and take the next customer. In the third, there is no manager, just an incompetent cashier.

People who saw the rude interaction got angry at the store, says the study’s lead author Christine Porath, a professor who's now at the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University. “They generalized about the employees who worked for the firm and the firm itself,” Porath says. “They were far less likely to continue to patronize the firm. They didn’t want to give it money.”

Rudeness offends people’s sense of justice, says Porath. And it’s very distracting to watch. As proof of that, she points to an earlier study in which she and her colleagues showed that people get so disturbed when they witness an episode of rudeness that it measurably affects their creativity and performance.

In that study, volunteers were asked to solve some anagrams and to figure out the solution to another type of problem by brainstorming. Then the volunteers were shown a video of a supervisor berating a subordinate. When the volunteers were asked to brainstorm and to solve anagrams a second time, their performance was markedly worse.

That makes a lot of sense to Dan Baugher, associate dean and director of graduate programs at Pace University’s Lubin School of Business. If the rudeness is directed towards us, it can feel like a violation, he says. If it’s directed toward someone else, we feel torn.

“Most people want to avoid conflict,” Baugher says. “But we feel anxiety if we don’t do anything.”

What we’re watching when we see rudeness is an act of aggression, says Pier Forni, a professor at Johns Hopkins University and co-founder of the Johns Hopkins Civility Project.

“Rudeness is very traumatic for those at the receiving end of it,” Forni says. “But it can also be traumatic for those who are just witnessing it.”

I agree that it is very traumatic to witness rude behavior. I have witnessed many situations where a customer is badgering an employee or manager. I feel empathy for these people because I have also been on the receiving end of rude and hostile behavior from customers and it really does ruin everyone's day. Some people handle rude behavior better than others, but I have had fellow co-wokers who have broken down and cried or quit the job, because of rude people.

 

[loreta]

I have a friend that is obtuse and refuse to understand that her diet and how she feeds her family is almost mortal. I am not judging her. But my discernment is telling me that she is close like a clam and that if she continues with her diet her husband will died of high pressure one of these days. And that her kids (that are adults in fact) are very unhappy not because she is a bad mother (that would be judging her) but because they eat too much carbohydrates.My discernment is telling me that she is obtuse and my discernment is telling me that it is impossible for me to change her mind. So I don't judge her (I am not saying how bad she is, how ignorant and happy to be ignorant she can be, etc.) but I see how she is because of her ignorance and education and feel sorry for her and her family

I'm sorry but this doesn't sound like discernment to me. You've called your friend obtuse, ignorant, uneducated, and a bad mother. It sounds like you're hostile toward her because she won't listen to you, and give you permission to "fix" her family problems. When you accept that she has free will to live as she pleases, and love her exactly the way she is and choses to live, without berating her for who she is, or her life choices, then I will believe you are coming from a place of discernment. And you will not need to pity her anymore you will be happy that she is happy living as she choses.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on the meaning of these words. Perhaps this was a lesson for us both. I learned a lot by this interaction with you as it forced me to further read & understand this subject better. I found an Internet page that was very helpful.

http://awakeningself.com/writing/judgement-vs-discernment/

You are so right, I was judging my friend and in fact feeling superior to her concerning the diet. Even if I think she is a very good person, and she is one of the best persons I know here in Spain, I admit I think she is very ignorant concerning her diet and many many other things. But I admit also that when I am seeing her I don't tell her anymore about diet. In fact she is very hysterical and this is due also because she eats a huge quantities of candies and sugar and it is almost impossible to talk with her, I just listen to her. I admit also that I am sometimes angry with her. So look who is talking about discernment! (me). And I will say also that I judge her as a mother because I see how unhappy her kids are. I am a liar, you can see. So thank you for your words. You are absolutely right: this is another lesson, specially for me.

 

[RflctnOfU]

It seems to me that most of the 'rules' once arrived at hosts house/dwelling can be distilled down to "make your presence invisible", osit.

Kris

A host is interested in you and your company, otherwise why extend the invitation?

I wouldn't say its about being invisible as much as being an enjoyable, engaged, companion to the house in question, with little stress and a lot of good conversation.

It breaks my heart sometimes to see how my sisters children prefer their phones and hand held games to talking to me or their uncle. They tell us they want to spend time with us. In reality? They're too afraid of 'missing something' on the phone, or that another pal is 'beating their score'. When I've mentioned how rude it is to play games or text when visiting someone, they do not have a clue what I'm talking about.

My youngest nephew summed his feelings up this way: "You're boring. Games are more fun than talking to you." He admitted that he only asked to spend time with us because his mother said he had to say so or she wouldn't let him have a new game he wanted to play.

That ended the visits, as it was clear to me that it was stressing everyone to pieces. We now restrict getting together to holidays when everyone knows what's expected and life proceeds smoother. (Yes, they play games and text throughout, but it is not happening in my house, and that's all right.) ;)

Just to clarify, I didn't say BE invisible, just make your PRESENCE invisible. Bedroom - make your bed, as the rules state. A messy bed implies a presence (supposing the hosts keep tidy guest rooms). When the hosts walk by your bedroom door, make the place look and feel like it is still the host's home, rather than 'invaded' with messiness. Make sense?? Or in the kitchen. Suppose it is 'spic and span' clean. If you make yourself some coffee, or some toast, clean up afterwards to the original state in which it was.

That is what I meant by invisible presence. Invisible presence = application of External Consideration.

Kris

(Perhaps presence should have been in quotation marks??)

 

[loreta]

Cynthia Steward walked into the store just as a customer was hitting full-throttle in an attempt to badger the owner into taking a sale item back for a full refund without a receipt. A group of customers who had been waiting to pay for their purchases had backed away from the counter, eyes averted. They looked uncomfortable and nervous.

When the owner found and printed out a copy of the original receipt proving that the item had indeed been sold at a discounted price, the agitated customer blew up. “You’re just trying to rip me off,” she screamed as she snatched her purchase off the counter and stormed toward the door. “I can’t believe you treat customers this way. I’m never coming back!”

As the door slammed, there was a collective sigh of relief and a ripple of nervous laughter. Steward knew exactly how everyone felt. Even though none of the vitriol had been directed at her, the 29-year-old manager from Quinton, N.J., had cringed as she heard the customer berating the store owner.

Rudeness, even if it’s not aimed at us, can derail a day. It can spoil a meal and ruin a good mood. It can hamstring creativity and hamper job performance. It makes us feel uncomfortable and conflicted: We don’t want to be involved, but we feel like we should be.

As it turns out, people can be so distressed by rudeness they’ll stop patronizing a business after witnessing one worker berate another, researchers reported in a study published in the August issue of the Journal of Consumer Research.

To see how employee rudeness affects consumers, the researchers set up an experiment in which volunteers were shown one of three videos. In one, the manager of a well-known bookstore chain nastily scolds a cashier for talking too long on the phone with a friend and making customers wait. In another, the manager politely asks the cashier to hang up and take the next customer. In the third, there is no manager, just an incompetent cashier.

People who saw the rude interaction got angry at the store, says the study’s lead author Christine Porath, a professor who's now at the McDonough School of Business at Georgetown University. “They generalized about the employees who worked for the firm and the firm itself,” Porath says. “They were far less likely to continue to patronize the firm. They didn’t want to give it money.”

Rudeness offends people’s sense of justice, says Porath. And it’s very distracting to watch. As proof of that, she points to an earlier study in which she and her colleagues showed that people get so disturbed when they witness an episode of rudeness that it measurably affects their creativity and performance.

In that study, volunteers were asked to solve some anagrams and to figure out the solution to another type of problem by brainstorming. Then the volunteers were shown a video of a supervisor berating a subordinate. When the volunteers were asked to brainstorm and to solve anagrams a second time, their performance was markedly worse.

That makes a lot of sense to Dan Baugher, associate dean and director of graduate programs at Pace University’s Lubin School of Business. If the rudeness is directed towards us, it can feel like a violation, he says. If it’s directed toward someone else, we feel torn.

“Most people want to avoid conflict,” Baugher says. “But we feel anxiety if we don’t do anything.”

What we’re watching when we see rudeness is an act of aggression, says Pier Forni, a professor at Johns Hopkins University and co-founder of the Johns Hopkins Civility Project.

“Rudeness is very traumatic for those at the receiving end of it,” Forni says. “But it can also be traumatic for those who are just witnessing it.”

I agree that it is very traumatic to witness rude behavior. I have witnessed many situations where a customer is badgering an employee or manager. I feel empathy for these people because I have also been on the receiving end of rude and hostile behavior from customers and it really does ruin everyone's day. Some people handle rude behavior better than others, but I have had fellow co-wokers who have broken down and cried or quit the job, because of rude people.

Some years ago I was often rude with cashiers, when they were slow serving, etc. Since then, my attitude has change: I know that they are in fact underpaid and abused and they work too many hours for a salary of misery. My attitude changed since I live in Spain and saw the terrible working conditions in this country. I don't care anymore if I have to wait, I say to myself: I am lucky to be able to come and buy things to eat, so be patient. And evidently I feel sorry when I see a boss being rude with an employee.

I remember also some books that I read in the 90's by Joan Borysenko, a biologist doctor and a little mystical woman, adept to mindfulness that talk about how it is important to be gentle, to see the person that it is in front of you instead of a robot machine. And it is true that sometimes we see the robot machine instead of a human being that is like you, with a family, with problems, or joys, dreams, fatigue, etc.

 

[Andromeda]

“Most people want to avoid conflict,” Baugher says. “But we feel anxiety if we don’t do anything.”

What we’re watching when we see rudeness is an act of aggression, says Pier Forni, a professor at Johns Hopkins University and co-founder of the Johns Hopkins Civility Project.

“Rudeness is very traumatic for those at the receiving end of it,” Forni says. “But it can also be traumatic for those who are just witnessing it.”

This is a very interesting topic. I was thinking about the above and it seems to me to point out that good manners have at least two levels.

Level one would be instinctual. I suppose we could say that some animals have good social manners according to what is acceptable for their group to get along with each other. These kinds of manners would be based on recognizing specific circumstances like status, gender and familiarity. The purpose would be to facilitate cooperation and procreation amongst a group for optimal survival. There have been studies done that prove that some animals and human children in their pre-verbal stage react negatively to unfairness and the mistreatment of others. This would suggest to me that a sense of fairness and cooperation are hardwired to a certain extent. Barring pathology, of course.

This alone should help those who have been brought up without positive examples of how to be polite (those born in a barn) to learn to adjust themselves appropriately in social situations by observing what is considered fair and cooperative in a particular situation. It might take a little time to adjust if you are coming from a completely different norm, but it should be possible. I also suppose that people without the next level of good manners to add to this one, might be easily ponerized by their societal norms. Whatever the case, if you don't at least have this level of awareness of socially acceptable behavior, there is something wrong.

The second level would be the more conscious humanistic understanding and application of the above. If you're really aware and connected to what is going on with other people and can hold all the specifics of the situation in your mind, using empathy, intelligence, and consciousness of propriety at the same time, you might just have good manners no matter what you've been taught. The objective would change from just fitting in for optimal survival, to fitting in and helping others fit in for optimal survival. Like in the situation described in the article above, most people would naturally feel uncomfortable. Uncomfortable falls into the category of level one, feeling that something is unjust and should be corrected. DOING something about it would be level two good manners, in my opinion. You'd have to have the awareness of the situation, the perspicacity to figure out what might be done to help the situation, and also the courage/care to carry it out.

So, if you were trying to be a good house guest, you would first need awareness that the situation needs awareness, the cleverness to figure out what should be done or asked, and the care to know it's the right thing to do for all involved.

I think that in most cases, level two can be learned if it doesn't come naturally. It would just take the will to find the way.

 

[Jasmine]

I have a friend that is obtuse and refuse to understand that her diet and how she feeds her family is almost mortal. I am not judging her. But my discernment is telling me that she is close like a clam and that if she continues with her diet her husband will died of high pressure one of these days. And that her kids (that are adults in fact) are very unhappy not because she is a bad mother (that would be judging her) but because they eat too much carbohydrates.My discernment is telling me that she is obtuse and my discernment is telling me that it is impossible for me to change her mind. So I don't judge her (I am not saying how bad she is, how ignorant and happy to be ignorant she can be, etc.) but I see how she is because of her ignorance and education and feel sorry for her and her family

I'm sorry but this doesn't sound like discernment to me. You've called your friend obtuse, ignorant, uneducated, and a bad mother. It sounds like you're hostile toward her because she won't listen to you, and give you permission to "fix" her family problems. When you accept that she has free will to live as she pleases, and love her exactly the way she is and choses to live, without berating her for who she is, or her life choices, then I will believe you are coming from a place of discernment. And you will not need to pity her anymore you will be happy that she is happy living as she choses.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on the meaning of these words. Perhaps this was a lesson for us both. I learned a lot by this interaction with you as it forced me to further read & understand this subject better. I found an Internet page that was very helpful.

http://awakeningself.com/writing/judgement-vs-discernment/

You are so right, I was judging my friend and in fact feeling superior to her concerning the diet. Even if I think she is a very good person, and she is one of the best persons I know here in Spain, I admit I think she is very ignorant concerning her diet and many many other things. But I admit also that when I am seeing her I don't tell her anymore about diet. In fact she is very hysterical and this is due also because she eats a huge quantities of candies and sugar and it is almost impossible to talk with her, I just listen to her. I admit also that I am sometimes angry with her. So look who is talking about discernment! (me). And I will say also that I judge her as a mother because I see how unhappy her kids are. I am a liar, you can see. So thank you for your words. You are absolutely right: this is another lesson, specially for me.

I am so happy we both learned things, you are beautiful...

 

[loreta]

I have a friend that is obtuse and refuse to understand that her diet and how she feeds her family is almost mortal. I am not judging her. But my discernment is telling me that she is close like a clam and that if she continues with her diet her husband will died of high pressure one of these days. And that her kids (that are adults in fact) are very unhappy not because she is a bad mother (that would be judging her) but because they eat too much carbohydrates.My discernment is telling me that she is obtuse and my discernment is telling me that it is impossible for me to change her mind. So I don't judge her (I am not saying how bad she is, how ignorant and happy to be ignorant she can be, etc.) but I see how she is because of her ignorance and education and feel sorry for her and her family

I'm sorry but this doesn't sound like discernment to me. You've called your friend obtuse, ignorant, uneducated, and a bad mother. It sounds like you're hostile toward her because she won't listen to you, and give you permission to "fix" her family problems. When you accept that she has free will to live as she pleases, and love her exactly the way she is and choses to live, without berating her for who she is, or her life choices, then I will believe you are coming from a place of discernment. And you will not need to pity her anymore you will be happy that she is happy living as she choses.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on the meaning of these words. Perhaps this was a lesson for us both. I learned a lot by this interaction with you as it forced me to further read & understand this subject better. I found an Internet page that was very helpful.

http://awakeningself.com/writing/judgement-vs-discernment/

You are so right, I was judging my friend and in fact feeling superior to her concerning the diet. Even if I think she is a very good person, and she is one of the best persons I know here in Spain, I admit I think she is very ignorant concerning her diet and many many other things. But I admit also that when I am seeing her I don't tell her anymore about diet. In fact she is very hysterical and this is due also because she eats a huge quantities of candies and sugar and it is almost impossible to talk with her, I just listen to her. I admit also that I am sometimes angry with her. So look who is talking about discernment! (me). And I will say also that I judge her as a mother because I see how unhappy her kids are. I am a liar, you can see. So thank you for your words. You are absolutely right: this is another lesson, specially for me.

I am so happy we both learned things, you are beautiful...

Next time I will see my friend I will remember this conversation. :)

 

[Buddy]

I think the only difference between our viewpoints is the number of corrupt rules we see masquerading as good manners, for what it's worth.

I understood what you were saying - at least as it may relate to my experience. As a person with that hunter/gatherer temperament, I don't keep a list of ritual behaviors in my memory to automatically implement upon meeting up with a person or group, and I do see some 'corrupt rules' as needy people putting all the burden for their emotional comfort on me. Still, through previous exposure to certain behaviors, familiarity with particular social environments and from being quick to pick up body language tells, I can remember or intuit what most people expect in terms of social ritual or whatever and simply do what seems necessary to fulfill some purpose. I'm thinking, here, of situations I want to be in. And I'm thinking of situations I don't want to find myself in: like failing to recognize a case of fetal alcohol syndrome and making an idiot of myself by saying something inappropriate about that person's style of walk or mentioning the "R" word.

Otherwise, I actually find it refreshing when someone doesn't want to shake hands or pretend to be "pleased to meet you" when they are not so pleased. And as far as dealing with people I already know, if a friend said he was texting because I was being too boring to talk to, I'd probably hug him for his honesty. Or, if said friend staying with me woke up in a bad mood and didn't say "shut up" when I teased him a little about his facial expression, his posture or bed-head hair, I'd be suspiciously surprised, but then, after I laughed and offered him breakfast that I already cooked, he would be suitably impressed and grateful. Obviously I'm thinking, here, of someone I presume to know well enough to interact with this way.

I guess what I'm saying is that spontaneity and minimal habitual behaviors, even when it comes to manners, tend to be more natural for me and, as I sometimes suspect from my own experience, more natural to some other people too - at least on occasion. So, what constitutes both 'manners' and 'rudeness' depends, and a lack of a certain expression of "manners" doesn't always indicate intended rudeness.

Having said the above, I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that they need be uncomfortable around me. Even without having read this thread, at my age, there'd be no excuse not to use manners around people IRL. OTOH, if I sensed that someone's temperament and preferences were more like mine, I'd know how to act around them too, so it's win-win! The important thing for me, IRL, is remembering to pay attention to other people's signs of apparent stress levels and to respond accordingly to see if it's my behavior that will make them more comfortable. I tend to experiment first and ask questions as a last resort if I can't figure something out.

All that said, I must admit I've never thought of my stand in exactly the terms of obyvatel's question:

When you are trying to maintain the status quo in a group whose style of communication is tainted by pathology, you may be making things easy for the group but are you making things easy for yourself? Answer to that question would depend upon what your aim is in a general sense and also the more specific purpose behind interacting with such a group.

Maybe my past responses in such cases has been to avoid such individuals or groups or to take unnecessary risks. I'm not sure yet. One thing I am sure of is that I didn't know general "rudeness" could be traumatizing to anyone.

 

[darksai]

Just to add a few more that "should be obvious".


Smoking Manners

• Blow smoke away from others' faces (even when only with other smokers).
• Respect the boundaries of others in relation to smoking, both in their personal and living space.
• If you need to excuse yourself to go smoke, wait until an appropriate time, such as at the end of a conversation or after leaving when a guest in an anti-smoking home.
• Avoid "defending your rights as a smoker". There is a time and place for that and being asked, however impolitely, to move away from an area where smoking is not generally tolerated is not one of them.
• Pre-roll (if you roll) whenever possible and have a case for your cigs. I've found the association of rolling your own and smoking marijuana to be thoroughly ingrained into people's minds, at least in my city. It's also just far more practical than carrying a tobacco bag around.

 

[Laura]

I think that Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must read along with Miss Manners.

Here's an online PDF:
http://erudition.mohit.tripod.com/_Influence_People.pdf

The actual book begins at about page 21.

 

[Jasmine]

I think that Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must read along with Miss Manners.

Here's an online PDF:
http://erudition.mohit.tripod.com/_Influence_People.pdf

The actual book begins at about page 21.

Thank you Laura. In Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" he makes a great point of really listening & communicating to others, "with empathy" to uncover their needs and finding out what's important to them. This is the very crux of external considering. He points out that in uncovering what others truly want in their lives and helping them achieve it will inevitable help you obtain your own goals simultaneously. It always stuck with me how he advised to always, right upon meeting a new person, to give a "very sincere compliment" to them for something you admire about them. It can even be something material like jewelry or a painting in their office etc. but It cannot be phony, it must be sincere. This type of sincere compliment can go along way in showing that you are taking a sincere interest in them, (taking the spotlight off yourself) putting them in the spotlight. Again this is demonstrating external consideration, and establishing a good report with people you meet for the first time.

It's been years & years since I've read this book Laura, is there any particular highlight from this book that you find even more important to acknowledge for our understanding in relation to good manners? As my favorite author, researcher, & mentor, I would love to hear what resonated with you personally. :)

 

[Chrissy]

Thank you for this thread. It prompted a good family discussion on manners and being considerate of others. It was interesting to hear my children's responses on the subject. They knew very well what rude behavior was in front of guests or when outside the home. We then got into how we treat each other as a family and how those same behaviors are still considered rude even when it's with the people we are most comfortable with. I think I was overusing the word "consideration" and when I switched it to a word that has negative connotations, it made an impact on them.

As a parent, I try to stress that we need to think how our words and actions might have a negative impact on someone else. I try to give examples that let them know how I feel and what a possible result could be. One example that worked well was the problem of my children arguing or horsing around in the car. When I finally said hey, I'm really frustrated and can't concentrate on the road and we could get into an accident, that made them stop and think.

There is a Miss Manners Guide to Rearing Perfect Children that I read the reviews on. I will put it on my list.

 

[mabar]

Just to add a few more that "should be obvious".


Smoking Manners

• Blow smoke away from others' faces (even when only with other smokers).
• Respect the boundaries of others in relation to smoking, both in their personal and living space.
• If you need to excuse yourself to go smoke, wait until an appropriate time, such as at the end of a conversation or after leaving when a guest in an anti-smoking home.
• Avoid "defending your rights as a smoker". There is a time and place for that and being asked, however impolitely, to move away from an area where smoking is not generally tolerated is not one of them.
• Pre-roll (if you roll) whenever possible and have a case for your cigs. I've found the association of rolling your own and smoking marijuana to be thoroughly ingrained into people's minds, at least in my city. It's also just far more practical than carrying a tobacco bag around.

Here, could be applied to the cellphone, no? … I suppose, that since I do not use that much the cellphone, I had been observing how a set of manners had been being disposed by the use of the cellphone by people that do not even acknowledge the fact that they being rude because is becoming the norm.

For example, I have a dinner with families/friends, and before the cellphone, good manners were the usual, after the cellphone, good manners does not seem to be, use.
Someone answers his/her cellphone because, of curse, someone is looking for him/her!!, some, the ones that seem not forget good manners, excused themselves and go to talk to another place, some do not and you ended up hearing the conversation.

One/I do think that there are many circumstances that should be obvious, what I had observed, depends on education, and is not related if you have “good” private, expensive, cultural status quo or a humble, low income one. In my case, I grew up with a light influence of “Manual de Carreño” a traditional Spanish good manners manual, written by Manuel Antonio Carreño Muñoz, 1853. With the good and the bad as machism, too formal, and class distinctions.

In my case, regarding smoking, I have been learning to behave. I must admit that there was a time, as teen, -that's when I began to smoke- I used to threw the end of the cigarrte to the street, not much time later hopefully, I stop doing that, is was like throwing garbage to the street??, but in occasions we/I tend to do what others do, and others keep doing that, throwing the end of the cigarrte in the street, being quite a normal thing. Those same people can be a perfectly gentleman or have a set of quite good manners.

Its been like 15 years since I have with me a portable ashtry. And never threw the end of the cigarrte to the street, if I do not have the portable ashtry with me, I put it out, folded in a napking and I dispose it until I find a trash can.

But in this city, this country, being the end of the cigarette or whatever garbage, in theory is penalized, in theory, corruption and not caring is the norm. People do not make the 2+2 that trowing garbage to the street would be in their own detriment. As we have been seeing with flooding, in many circumstances is due to garbage, ... and too, corruption and not caring.

I think that Dale Carnegie's book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a must read along with Miss Manners.

Here's an online PDF:
http://erudition.mohit.tripod.com/_Influence_People.pdf

The actual book begins at about page 21.

Thanks Laura to both references, more examples :) to put attention and work with.