External Considering and Good Manners

Mrs.Tigersoap

The Living Force
Laura said:
The problem that I'm seeing - even with some long-time members (and here I'm speaking about direct social interactions) - is that they act like they were never taught good manners at all. I mean, the most basic civilized behavior that one should be expected to exhibit is just totally lacking. Things like being pleasant in difficult situations, not moping or acting sulky; things like being in someone else's space and "taking over" and trying to dominate; things like speaking and acting insultingly, or obstructively; ignoring the most basic, and I mean BASIC, politeness, appreciation, etc. It's just been shocking to witness. And even worse when "The Work" is sort of brought up as the excuse, and the blame is put on the other person because THEY weren't "considering enough" or they have "issues" and so on and so forth.

Laura said:
Since we host so many people here throughout the year, we get an opportunity to see a whole range of behaviors. I'll never forget the fella who came to a workshop back in 2004 - young, pretty bright. I was walking from the kitchen into our pantry area and found him opening and closing cupboards and moving things around inside them to see what was in there. He didn't seem to be the least bit embarrassed when I stopped (with a bit of shock, though I was sort of hiding it) and asked him "what are you doing?" He said - as if it were the most normal thing in the world: "just checking to see what kind of stuff you have..." So I asked him: "is it normal for people in your family to go to other people's homes and start snooping through their cupboards and closets?" He said: "oh yes, my mother and sister do it all the time..."

I had to explain to him that this isn't acceptable behavior under any circumstances. He was shocked when I told him that most people do NOT do that.

The way some people behave at other's people's places is just astounding sometimes!
It reminds me of this quote from The Gambler by Dostoyevsky: 'Invite a man to your table and soon he will place his feet upon it'. :lol:

I don't really see how this lack of manner is compatible with every day life: with bad manners, how do you get (and keep) a job? How do you make (and keep) friends? How do you find (and keep) someone to share your life with? Conflicts and difficulties must arise on a daily basis!

The opposite unfortunately exists as well: terrible hosts! I've been to someone's house where I literally had to ask after quite a long while if I could sit down, had to ask after almost an hour, when I was really parched and could not take it anymore, if I could have something to drink. This was not an oversight, it has been like this every time we visited since. And she is a family member! Interestingly, this person is also a narcissist. She is totally incapable of giving and to think of anyone but herself.
 

Muxel

Dagobah Resident
All very basic lessons of maturity/decency - "obyvateling," if you will. Having it spelled out like that and tied to an ezoterrick concept like "external considering" is a bit like having "aliens" tell you the below:

ARCTURIANS: We say to you: the path to Ascension is to go against your frustration and try to be patient with a difficult customer. When you thank someone appreciatively for going out of their way to assist you, you are nurturing your Light Bodies.

Reminds me of the mother whose boy had temporary halitosis that Laura used to illustrate Mouravieff's crucible: in the end she "resolved" her problem by handing the teacher some gum to give her boy. What was she going to do - let loose fire and brimstone upon the entire school?

How many threads have I seen where the person with the problem was just being rude IRL, no matter what long paragraph they wrote intellectualizing it (and admirably too), and everybody chimes in with "Hey you've got to be externally considerate..." So the explicit connection made in this thread is crucial for letting said persons know: you are not doing it wrong by some strange esoteric standard so much as you are doing it wrong by the standards of "being an adult"!

Good manners, and beneath it, the learned impulse to be benevolent in human interaction, was the only thing that kept me from outwardly acting out when inside I was splitting tremendously, brimming with anger. Does that count as keeping it "below the neck," and heating the crucible?

(FYI Laura, DreamGod posted an excerpt from the glossary)
 

DreamGod

Jedi
Laura said:
DreamGod said:
In 4th Way parlance, this is the practice of taking others into account when acting. External considering involves making a realistic evaluation of another's situation and acting in ways which take this into account in a positive sense.

Exactly, and thanks for putting it in very direct and simple language.

Thanks Laura, but i just copied as it was on the glossary, it was clear enough and i wanted to make richer the idea you have in hand.

:)
 

Laura

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Mrs. Tigersoap said:
I don't really see how this lack of manner is compatible with every day life: with bad manners, how do you get (and keep) a job? How do you make (and keep) friends? How do you find (and keep) someone to share your life with? Conflicts and difficulties must arise on a daily basis!

Exactly the point that you can't begin The Work at a level lower than an obyvatel! If you are a good obyvatel, householder, then you are good at getting and keeping a job, making and keeping friends, having good personal relationships.

There are different reasons for people to have conflicts and difficulties in their daily lives; in some cases it can truly be because the society is pathologized and this impacts the person in various ways. But the problems of the external world and its assaults should not impact their personal lives; if that happens, they aren't a very good obyvatel!

An example of what I mean: because of the pathology of our reality, we spent the last 2.5 years undergoing a police investigation and Fiscal audit. All of this was horribly, horribly stressful to everyone here. I can't even describe how stressful. However, in no way did it come into our family relationships and cause any of us to behave rudely toward each other or to snap at innocent outsiders and take our stress out on them.

I DID, however, reach a point in the Fiscal audit where I was consciously, deliberately, righteously angry and RUDE to the auditor. Our lawyer at the time was utterly horrified. But the fact is, he was totally incompetent and out of his depth and was as useless as a lead parachute. When we changed lawyers, everything I had said to the auditor that she rudely and repeatedly ignored, followed by rudely and repeatedly calling me a liar (though, oh, so politely!), turned out to be completely justified. Not only that, but it was pointed out that any atty worth his salt could have ended that torture at the first meeting. At that point, I had endured months of criminal bullying at the hands of that officious dwarf. (How's that for a little rudeness?)

The point is, there is a time and place for everything, but good manners will get you a lot further than rudeness, especially in The Work. When good manners and helpfulness only invites more bullying, then maybe it is time to bully back?
 

DreamGod

Jedi
Muxel said:
(FYI Laura, DreamGod posted an excerpt from the glossary)

I wasn´t trying to get credit Muxel, I pasted the link so everybody could see for themselves. As it has been discussed before, seems like your comment have a blurred intention and not very contructive.
 

Gimpy

The Living Force
The point is, there is a time and place for everything, but good manners will get you a lot further than rudeness, especially in The Work. When good manners and helpfulness only invites more bullying, then maybe it is time to bully back?

I think its possible to take a stand without resorting to being a bully, the caveat to that is, will the bully listen to anything but force in kind?

In that case, being rude would qualify as externally considerate, otherwise the bully can't understand a thing being said. (osit.)
 

Laura

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Muxel said:
Good manners, and beneath it, the learned impulse to be benevolent in human interaction, was the only thing that kept me from outwardly acting out when inside I was splitting tremendously, brimming with anger. Does that count as keeping it "below the neck," and heating the crucible?

(FYI Laura, DreamGod posted an excerpt from the glossary)

Hmmm... So, in one paragraph above, you describe what you are about to do in the last sentence.

I note that DreamGod included the link to the glossary...

But for some reason, you didn't like for me to give him thanks for bringing that to our attention or you needed to correct me for assuming that he had contributed anything original? Isn't that rather immature and rude not to mention ungracious?
 

Diane

Jedi
I enjoy reading James Allen. I searched "As A Man Thinketh", and found a few passages relating to manners.

Thoughtlessness is built another name for folly. It lies at the root of a great deal of failure and misery. No one who aims at any kind of usefulness and prosperity (for usefulness in the body politic and prosperity to one's self cannot be served)' can afford to be asleep with regard to his actions and the effect of those actions on other and reactively on himself. He must, at the outset of his career, wake up to a sense of his personnel responsibility.

He must know that wherever he is - in the home, the counting-house, the pulpit, the store, in the schoolroom or behind the counter, in company or alone, at work or at play--his conduct will materially affect his career for good or bad; for there is a subtle influence in behavior which leaves its impression every man, woman, and child that it touches, and that impress is the determining factor in the attitude of persons towards one another.

It is for the reason that the cultivation of good manners plays such an important part in all coherent society.

If you carry about with you a disturbing or disagreeable mental defect, it needs not to be named and known to work its poison upon your affairs. Its corrosive influence will eat into all your efforts, and disfigure your happiness and prosperity, as powerful acid eats into and disfigures the finest steel. On the other hand, if you carry about an assuring and harmonious mental excellence, it needs no that those about you understand it to be influenced by it. They will be drawn towards you in good -will, often without knowing why, and that good quality will be the most powerful sport in all your affairs, bringing you friends and opportunities, and greatly aiding in the success of all your enterprises. It will even right your minor incapacitaties; covering a multitude of faults.

Thus we receive at the hands of the world according to the measure of our giving. For bad, bad; for good, good. For defective conduct, indifferent influence and imperfect success; for superior conduct lasting power and consummate achievement. We act, and the world responds.

Allen, James (2009-03-19). AS A MAN THINKETH Deluxe Collection of Five Favorite James Allen Works [Annotated & Unabridged] (Kindle Locations 4250-4252
 

Laura

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Gimpy said:
The point is, there is a time and place for everything, but good manners will get you a lot further than rudeness, especially in The Work. When good manners and helpfulness only invites more bullying, then maybe it is time to bully back?

I think its possible to take a stand without resorting to being a bully, the caveat to that is, will the bully listen to anything but force in kind?

In that case, being rude would qualify as externally considerate, otherwise the bully can't understand a thing being said. (osit.)

One thing I realized after the encounter was this: the woman still didn't understand a thing. She really was that stupid and mechanical. There was one for-sure benefit and another possible: 1) I sure felt better afterward; 2) she might think twice before she bullies the next person. Which would mean, of course, that she MIGHT have learned something, at the very least about pushing too much. And that lesson would be brought home to her after our atty's last actions in a very serious way.

Hard to tell. I probably should feel ashamed for getting in her face and shouting at her that she was Effing ignorant. But I don't, for some reason. It was true. And I had said it to her in a dozen different polite ways over and over and over again for months. We spent entire days copying and assembling documents that were way more than she was legally entitled to see. We spent hours passing these documents over to her and reminding her that we were doing this as a courtesy, not because she was entitled to see them, which she wasn't. We spent hours explaining to her US corporate law and business practices - which applied - then watching her make faces and insult me by telling me I'm not being transparent because SHE didn't freaking understand. So, no, at the end of it, when I realized that they had made up their minds and were unwilling to be confused by the facts, I just let her know in the fullest way possible what I thought of her and her ignorance, her bullying, her insulting words and actions and that I certainly wasn't going to sit there one more instant and be bullied by her. That was the end.
 

DreamGod

Jedi
Laura said:
Muxel said:
Good manners, and beneath it, the learned impulse to be benevolent in human interaction, was the only thing that kept me from outwardly acting out when inside I was splitting tremendously, brimming with anger. Does that count as keeping it "below the neck," and heating the crucible?

(FYI Laura, DreamGod posted an excerpt from the glossary)

Hmmm... So, in one paragraph above, you describe what you are about to do in the last sentence.

I note that DreamGod included the link to the glossary...

But for some reason, you didn't like for me to give him thanks for bringing that to our attention or you needed to correct me for assuming that he had contributed anything original? Isn't that rather immature and rude not to mention ungracious?

If we where sitted at the table, here is where I drop a dish to create a distraction. :)
 

Muxel

Dagobah Resident
DreamGod said:
Muxel said:
(FYI Laura, DreamGod posted an excerpt from the glossary)

I wasn´t trying to get credit Muxel, I pasted the link so everybody could see for themselves. As it has been discussed before, seems like your comment have a blurred intention and not very contructive.
I didn't mean any offense by it, I'm sorry. I know you meant well, I just thought Laura had made an error of perception and I wanted to set the record straight.

Laura said:
I note that DreamGod included the link to the glossary...

But for some reason, you didn't like for me to give him thanks for bringing that to our attention or you needed to correct me for assuming that he had contributed anything original? Isn't that rather immature and rude not to mention ungracious?
From this:
Exactly, and thanks for putting it in very direct and simple language.
I thought that you were mistaking the glossary text for something coming directly from DreamGod. That's how I interpreted your response. If you knew all along it was from the glossary, then I misread your reply, sorry.
 

Kisito

Jedi Council Member
I would not venture to give a meaning, but the man who goes into Laura's refrigerator, it is very funny. But we cannot care about everybody to have good manners. For example when Gurdjieff wrote in the terrace of the Café of the Peace in Paris, nobody had to disturb him. He answered nobody when we addressed him, as long as he had not decided on him. Ouspenski had to wait that G stops writing so that he says hello to him. The first one of the good manners would thus be not to disturb others. The look, the smile then the word are signs of recognitions to manage us towards the good manners.
 

Mr. Premise

The Living Force
SeekinTruth said:
I never understood how some people could have bad manners consistently. To me, it even seems to require more energy, like I'd have to go out of my way not to practice good manners. Even if someone doesn't understand the importance of External Consideration as defined here (or even know about it), it's really obvious that being polite and having good manners makes life easier for everyone.

Good manners/being polite is only part of External Considering - only one aspect of it, though a very basic and important one. But I feel it's just an essential part of regular life, as well, even for those NOT in the Work. I guess it comes down to the nature of the person who can live being constantly impolite and exhibiting bad manners all the time. I've know some people like that and it makes it really challenging to put up with them.
It's actually easy to understand how people can not have good manners if you think about it. Good manners come naturally to you SeekinTruth probably because your parents spent a lot of time and energy teaching and modeling it to you. If a child doesn't get that... good manners are not natural or instinctual, they're cultural.

I joke with my teenagers that I have spent every single mealtime with them since they got out of the high chair telling them to sit properly (legs forward, not sitting on your legs sideways, etc.). It a huge energy investment but we insist upon it. And all the other common courtesy stuff.
 

Oxajil

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When I first started working at the shop there was a colleague who would say mean things to me, or made fun of me. I just kept being polite and nice to her, and after a couple of months she stopped making mean comments, but now and then she does make fun of me, this time though she adds that she doesn't mean it personal and says that she hopes that it doesn't hurt me and that she's just joking around. She's actually a lot more nicer to me now than before.
 

DreamGod

Jedi
Muxel said:
DreamGod said:
Muxel said:
(FYI Laura, DreamGod posted an excerpt from the glossary)

I wasn´t trying to get credit Muxel, I pasted the link so everybody could see for themselves. As it has been discussed before, seems like your comment have a blurred intention and not very contructive.
I didn't mean any offense by it, I'm sorry. I know you meant well, I just thought Laura had made an error of perception and I wanted to set the record straight.

Laura said:
I note that DreamGod included the link to the glossary...

But for some reason, you didn't like for me to give him thanks for bringing that to our attention or you needed to correct me for assuming that he had contributed anything original? Isn't that rather immature and rude not to mention ungracious?
From this:
Exactly, and thanks for putting it in very direct and simple language.
I thought that you were mistaking the glossary text for something coming directly from DreamGod. That's how I interpreted your response. If you knew all along it was from the glossary, then I misread your reply, sorry.

Thanks Muxel, all its fine by me :) ;) ;D
 
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