External Considering and Good Manners

[obyvatel]

From this perspective, what constitutes good manners can vary between social groups. In some more sardonic friend circles I know, sarcasm and subtly insulting one another is just a form of play. If you were to derail those types of comments with the naive politeness you're used to showcasing around the elder's home, you would probably get awkward side-glances from people. So I often do need to give mixed company a cold reading to try and determine the types of behaviour they consider the least threatening, most welcoming, et cetera.

External considering makes life easy for both oneself and others. When you are trying to maintain the status quo in a group whose style of communication is tainted by pathology, you may be making things easy for the group but are you making things easy for yourself? Answer to that question would depend upon what your aim is in a general sense and also the more specific purpose behind interacting with such a group.

[quote author=whitecoast]
Personally though, as much as I try and keep people humming along hunky-dory with my good manners and such, a part of me wishes that people were less sensitive to disruptions of their vagal nerve stimulation from inconsequential garbage (e.g., if arriving at a party without a frock coat is enough to send guests into a splitting frenzy and thinking him/her rude, you really have to wonder about the stability of the rest of their instinctive substratum!)
[/quote]

There is self-importance coming out from the above text. You could be outwardly doing the "right" thing, but on the inside seem to have an attitude that is opposite of what external considering demands. A general sense of good will towards others is the sign of psychological health. Certain adjustments need to be made when one is confronted with psychopathology but having a dress code in a party does not fall into that category. Even in the case of dealing with pathology, a sense of superiority or contempt is hardly a productive attitude.

[quote author=Whitecoast]
But codifying good manners into all these behaviour rules as was the fashion in Victorian times seems more to me a trait of more hysterical cultures. OSIT. By their standards, Diogenes of Sinope was a pretty rude guy, wasn't he? But he lived a more natural life than many contemporary Hellenics, and I'm sure a hunter-gatherer would find his behaviour far less rude than a regular Athenian.
[/quote]

There is a small number of exceptional people in society who stand out in a positive way. Similarly, there is a percentage of deviants. In between, there are the regular people who show a range of psychological characteristics. Diogenes of Sinope was most likely an exceptional man. He was not only tolerated but revered by the masses because of the kind of life he led and people could see the essential good-will behind his abrasive actions. People trying to imitate Diogenes' external actions without the corresponding inner development would not be tolerated in any society - osit.

For the general population, rules of behavior serve a useful purpose. These rules act as a deterrant against rampant narcissism and disregard for others at the basic level and such rules of behavior are observed in every society from bushmen to uptight Victorians. The problem lies not in the existence of rules but in the corruption of values that give rise to the rules through the influence of macro-social psychopathology.

 

[Laura]

Although some people never seem to learn manners regardless. They are probably of the Authoritarian Personality type or just so narcissistic or wounded they can't see past themselves and how their behavior affects others.

And these are the people who just can't do The Work, it seems. If you can't get the good manners part down, if you can't rise above your wounds enough to think of others first and to pay attention and govern yourself accordingly, then the most basic part of the work is closed to you because that is what it is: seeing yourself and how your behavior affects others.

 

[edgitarra]

There was a very good romanian orthodox priest(Cleopa) who once told:" Take everybody as being your Brothers and Sisters, and your parents as being GOD. You have to endure others weaknesses and character impotence, because sometimes YOU fall in the same traps.

 

[Gimpy]

The point is, there is a time and place for everything, but good manners will get you a lot further than rudeness, especially in The Work. When good manners and helpfulness only invites more bullying, then maybe it is time to bully back?

I think its possible to take a stand without resorting to being a bully, the caveat to that is, will the bully listen to anything but force in kind?

In that case, being rude would qualify as externally considerate, otherwise the bully can't understand a thing being said. (osit.)

One thing I realized after the encounter was this: the woman still didn't understand a thing. She really was that stupid and mechanical. There was one for-sure benefit and another possible: 1) I sure felt better afterward; 2) she might think twice before she bullies the next person. Which would mean, of course, that she MIGHT have learned something, at the very least about pushing too much. And that lesson would be brought home to her after our atty's last actions in a very serious way.

Hard to tell. I probably should feel ashamed for getting in her face and shouting at her that she was Effing ignorant. But I don't, for some reason. It was true. And I had said it to her in a dozen different polite ways over and over and over again for months. We spent entire days copying and assembling documents that were way more than she was legally entitled to see. We spent hours passing these documents over to her and reminding her that we were doing this as a courtesy, not because she was entitled to see them, which she wasn't. We spent hours explaining to her US corporate law and business practices - which applied - then watching her make faces and insult me by telling me I'm not being transparent because SHE didn't freaking understand. So, no, at the end of it, when I realized that they had made up their minds and were unwilling to be confused by the facts, I just let her know in the fullest way possible what I thought of her and her ignorance, her bullying, her insulting words and actions and that I certainly wasn't going to sit there one more instant and be bullied by her. That was the end.

If a basic bully leaves an encounter learning that his/her behavior isn't tolerated by you or anyone like you, sometimes that's the best outcome.

I don't think standing up for yourself, especially when pushed well past all limits, is a bad thing. Only in movies do we see what I call 'Iron Grace', people who remain unflappable no matter what's heaped on their heads. It's the ideal, yes. Taking a stand in the way you did was reinforcing a healthy boundary, that this woman couldn't see, if you gave her a map, spotlight, and detailed directions. ;D

 

[Approaching Infinity]

From this perspective, what constitutes good manners can vary between social groups. In some more sardonic friend circles I know, sarcasm and subtly insulting one another is just a form of play. If you were to derail those types of comments with the naive politeness you're used to showcasing around the elder's home, you would probably get awkward side-glances from people. So I often do need to give mixed company a cold reading to try and determine the types of behaviour they consider the least threatening, most welcoming, et cetera.

The question is why sarcasm and subtly insulting behaviors are the norm in such groups to the extent that politeness gets awkward side-glances. From my experience, such groups usually consist of people with a need to maintain their egos and they do that by degrading others.

I think this depends on the sarcasm in question. (In other words, context, intent.) I think sometimes a subtly insulting joke can be an externally considerate way of mirroring back another's bad behavior or character flaws. Hunter gatherers often tease each other in ways like this, apparently.

 

[sarek]

I find it fascinating how entering the Work has changed my way of thinking about external consideration. I have come to realise that good intentions are one thing, but total blindness to my own behaviour is quite another. It is easy to do things you do not want to do, if you can not see that you are doing them.

I am a nerdy guy with ADD which tends to lead to a good deal of foot in mouth syndrome. Over time I had learned to take the sharp edges of some of that behaviour but only working on self awareness has taught me just how utterly flawed I am. Frankly, I am appalled at how bad its been.

Good manners do not come naturally. They require constant attention and constant corrrection of one's own behaviour. This is an ongoing struggle but at the same time it is very beneficial for character building.

 

[SeekinTruth]

I never understood how some people could have bad manners consistently. To me, it even seems to require more energy, like I'd have to go out of my way not to practice good manners. Even if someone doesn't understand the importance of External Consideration as defined here (or even know about it), it's really obvious that being polite and having good manners makes life easier for everyone.

Good manners/being polite is only part of External Considering - only one aspect of it, though a very basic and important one. But I feel it's just an essential part of regular life, as well, even for those NOT in the Work. I guess it comes down to the nature of the person who can live being constantly impolite and exhibiting bad manners all the time. I've know some people like that and it makes it really challenging to put up with them.

It's actually easy to understand how people can not have good manners if you think about it. Good manners come naturally to you SeekinTruth probably because your parents spent a lot of time and energy teaching and modeling it to you. If a child doesn't get that... good manners are not natural or instinctual, they're cultural.

I joke with my teenagers that I have spent every single mealtime with them since they got out of the high chair telling them to sit properly (legs forward, not sitting on your legs sideways, etc.). It a huge energy investment but we insist upon it. And all the other common courtesy stuff.

Yeah, my brother and I would definitely not get away with being rude that's for sure. But the things that stuck in my mind were more indirect things my father said to us, those had a different affect than direct ways of teaching manners. Out of the many such example, a couple I always remember are that my father told us that he never smoked in front of his father until he was close to 30 years old. Even though his father knew he smoked and his father smoked as well, he just felt it was disrespectful because he started smoking at a young age and his father didn't want him to start that young. So it just stuck with him to put out his cigarette if his father came into his presence while he was smoking.

He said that it was during a stressful time that his father offered him a cigarette and he was basically refusing in a way as if he didn't smoke. His father told him to go on and smoke the cigarette as he knows my father smokes anyway and the stressful situation called for a cigarette. And because of that me and my brother didn't smoke in front of our parents until in our thirties as well, even though they knew we smoked, and we also had started young - early teens.

Another thing I remember my father telling us when we were young was how his father had long discussions with him about building business relationships. They had a private business, and when my father was in his late teens, my grandfather explained to him how much time and effort goes into building trust and loyalty with the customers and how quickly it can all be destroyed by thoughtlessness and gave concrete advise on how to treat people with respect and honesty to get their respect and honesty in return. He also said that it only applied to reasonable people with integrity, otherwise it was best to just stay away from people who would consistently refuse to reciprocate common courtesy. These types of things had a stronger influence even than direct lessons on manners.

 

[whitecoast]

Hi Obyvatel,

From this perspective, what constitutes good manners can vary between social groups. In some more sardonic friend circles I know, sarcasm and subtly insulting one another is just a form of play. If you were to derail those types of comments with the naive politeness you're used to showcasing around the elder's home, you would probably get awkward side-glances from people. So I often do need to give mixed company a cold reading to try and determine the types of behaviour they consider the least threatening, most welcoming, et cetera.

External considering makes life easy for both oneself and others. When you are trying to maintain the status quo in a group whose style of communication is tainted by pathology, you may be making things easy for the group but are you making things easy for yourself? Answer to that question would depend upon what your aim is in a general sense and also the more specific purpose behind interacting with such a group.

I agree. I don't enjoy being around groups like that, but it may be demanded of me one day to get on good terms with such a group for a required purpose conducive to Aim. ;)

[quote author=whitecoast]
Personally though, as much as I try and keep people humming along hunky-dory with my good manners and such, a part of me wishes that people were less sensitive to disruptions of their vagal nerve stimulation from inconsequential garbage (e.g., if arriving at a party without a frock coat is enough to send guests into a splitting frenzy and thinking him/her rude, you really have to wonder about the stability of the rest of their instinctive substratum!)

There is self-importance coming out from the above text. You could be outwardly doing the "right" thing, but on the inside seem to have an attitude that is opposite of what external considering demands. A general sense of good will towards others is the sign of psychological health. Certain adjustments need to be made when one is confronted with psychopathology but having a dress code in a party does not fall into that category. Even in the case of dealing with pathology, a sense of superiority or contempt is hardly a productive attitude. [/quote]

I agree, it's not. It would be hypocritical of me to suggest it beneficial to be contemptuous or disdainful of people for not behaving a certain way in spite of its lack of objective harm. That's my original criticism of arbitrary "good manners": it restricts of number of contexts in which people of all walks can operate amicably with others. I'd be more than willing to do what was necessary to stay on proper terms to satisfy my Aim, but I'm not going to go out of my way to encourage those types of limitations.

There is a small number of exceptional people in society who stand out in a positive way. Similarly, there is a percentage of deviants. In between, there are the regular people who show a range of psychological characteristics. Diogenes of Sinope was most likely an exceptional man. He was not only tolerated but revered by the masses because of the kind of life he led and people could see the essential good-will behind his abrasive actions. People trying to imitate Diogenes' external actions without the corresponding inner development would not be tolerated in any society - osit.

I wonder. Do normals who need authoritarian rules even see inner development? If so, what of successful psychopaths?

For the general population, rules of behavior serve a useful purpose. These rules act as a deterrant against rampant narcissism and disregard for others at the basic level and such rules of behavior are observed in every society from bushmen to uptight Victorians. The problem lies not in the existence of rules but in the corruption of values that give rise to the rules through the influence of macro-social psychopathology.

Just in case I've been misunderstood, I'm not advocating "no rules" here, since humans have a definite nature with definite biological/emotional requirements with which to engage with themselves and their environment. I completely understand the importance of a dress code for a snowshoe-ing party, because failing to bring winter protection has a high probability of inconveniencing others down the line. But not bringing a frock to a summer party, simply because it doesn't match what others prefer to wear, I interpret as a "corruption of values" (as you put it) since it is the limbic tail wagging the objective requirements dog. It doesn't mean I wouldn't bring a frock, it just means I wouldn't encourage that convention for its own sake.

I think the only difference between our viewpoints is the number of corrupt rules we see masquerading as good manners, for what it's worth.

 

[Laura]

Since I've already mentioned the topic of guest behavior, I went searching on the net to see if there were any concise articles with advice since it seems to me that some people just don't have a clue about these things (and we've had a few of them visiting here!) As I was reading one of the articles, I was thinking: wow, most of this would be good to remember all the time in just about any living situation, family, roommates, whatever. So, here it is:

_http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Good-House-Guest

1
Be specific with dates of arrival and departure. Don't keep your visit open-ended. Also, don't book an airline reservation before you first discuss it with your host(s).
2
Arrive when you say you will arrive. Don't show up earlier. Your host may not be ready for you and an early arrival could inconvenience them considerably. If for some unforeseen reason you caught an earlier connection or you had an extra day's vacation and want to arrive earlier, call them first. If they sound hesitant, tell them you will be happy to leave the plans as originally agreed upon, then find something else to do with your extra time.

This will also depend on who you're staying with; Mom and Dad probably won't mind at all, but a friend, colleague or even a sibling may have other commitments, so don't ask them to change their plans.

3
Avoid showing up several hours or even the day after you said you'd arrive. This may upset many hosts who worry about what might have happened to you, or are put out because they may have rearranged their schedules to accommodate you. This fills the air with bad vibes. Again, if you are delayed for any reason, call them and explain. They'll understand, but only if you've given reasonable explanations for your change in plans.

4
Be courteous by letting your host(s) know your plans and communicate clearly about your comings and goings from their home. If you will not be with your hosts all the time, discuss your plans to make sure that you are not going to inadvertently inconvenience them. Don't leave their home, even for a short outing, without telling them! Your host should not have to guess whether you went out or you're in your room with the door shut.
5
Don't overstay your visit. Your hosts may not be on vacation as you are (most have to work while you play), and even though they have graciously invited you into their home, they have already rearranged their normal routines on your behalf. Their hospitality also requires their investment of time, energy, and money for extra food and drink, utilities, and other costs. If you're unsure of your departure date, keep your hosts apprised of relevant updates as they develop -- your hosts should not have to guess or ask you what your departure plans are, especially if your stay is longer than two weeks.
6
Bring a gift to say "thank you" when you arrive. Offering something as a way of thanking your hosts in advance is a thoughtful and caring gesture. It demonstrates your appreciation of their important contribution in making your stay a good one. Considerate, inexpensive gifts include a bottle of good wine, a box of chocolates, a basket of fruit, or a bouquet of flowers, or perhaps a music CD by artists from your region or country. If you don't want to carry anything extra, consider having something delivered before your arrival or buying something on the way.
7
Be flexible and adaptive. The living space designed to accommodate you on a short-term, temporary basis is the full-time home of your host(s). Make a conscious effort to adapt to their preferences and patterns. To be clear, ask about their expectations of you during your stay. (For example: ask if you are expected to share meals with them, what time they prefer you to turn out the lights, etc.) It is especially important to arise when your hosts do (or at least when your own children do), and accept that others have to live in the house, too. Realize that if your kids are creating chaos at 7am on the weekends (and you are still sleeping), this is probably something you should acknowledge that your hosts (who work full time demanding jobs while you are vacationing) tolerate.
8
Keep your guest area neat. Make your bed before appearing for breakfast, or peel back the covers to air the bed if that's how your host prefers it. Take care not to soil the carpet, sofa or bedspread with oil, salt, or grime from the bottom of your suitcase - to prevent this, don't roll your suitcase inside the home. Keep your suitcase and belongings as unobtrusive as possible - especially if the room is a shared space, or visible to your hosts in passing by. Simply shutting the door to a messy room is not an option.

You can tuck your suitcase out of the way to keep the common space neat.
If you need closet space, always ask permission first.
Remember that this isn't your home - this is someone else's home.

9
Keep yourself neat: hygiene is everything! Family members may tolerate each others' personal habits because they have had years to get used to them (or learn to tolerate them). Expect to shower daily, if that is what your hosts do, and do not take overly long about it, respecting that it is their shower not yours, and be especially aware of body odor. What may be "no big deal" or "natural" in your own household, may be offensive in your host's household, and most hosts will be reluctant to approach you about it.

Have you been working outside? Have you been sweating or wearing shoes without socks? You may wish to keep your shoes outside the door, change your shirt and put on more deodorant.

Brush your teeth morning and evening (or if you have eaten food with a strong odor, such as garlic or onions). Also be aware that your dirty laundry retains the smell - wash them as soon as possible.

Take daily, but short showers--it is also rude to run out the hot water or run up the electric bill for your host.

Also, be aware that showering daily might be a luxury as far as your hosts are concerned and would be a drain on your hosts' heating and water bills that they might not be expecting, appreciate, or afford.

If you feel you must shower frequently, especially when your hosts do not, show you appreciate the additional cost by making a suitable contribution to the cost in advance so they do not have a growing concern about you overusing their heating and water.

10
If you have your own bedroom, keep the door open when you are not in it, with the bed neatly made and your belongings neat and tidy.
11
Clean up after yourself. Do not leave your dirty dishes in the sink. Even if you find that your host leaves his/her dishes piled in the sink, doing this yourself is considered very rude. You should leave the kitchen cleaner than you found it, but hopefully it goes without saying that you clean your dishes as soon as you're done with them.
12
Be reasonable about sharing a household bathroom. If the house only has one bathroom, ask when it is convenient for you to use it. If the family is working, going to school, etc., the last thing you want to be doing is getting underfoot. Come to an arrangement as soon as you arrive and be flexible about the use. Consideration is also expected if you are sleeping in a living area near the only bathroom; remember, others may need to use it after you go to bed. Make sure you do the following:

Flush the toilet and put the seat down.
Don't leave a dripping faucet, and turn off the light when you're finished.
If there are more bathrooms, make sure that you use the one allocated to you and treat the other bathrooms as private.
Be clean. Check that you have not left hair on the floor, or toothpaste splatters in the sink. Make sure to always leave a clean toilet behind.
Guys: It's most hygienic to just sit down to urinate. But if you want to urinate standing up, lift the seat first and wipe the rim afterward and replace the seat when you are done.
Girls: If you feel uncomfortable in sitting on the toilet seat, don't use all the paper for lining the seat. Instead, use just enough to wipe it clean or hover over it. If you aren't experienced in "hover-peeing", have the first four or five times a short look for sprinkles afterwards because some girls have an unusual urine stream. If you can manage to "hover-pee" without mistakes, there is no need to check the seat afterwards.
If towels are not placed out for you in the guest room, don't presume that the fancy towels in a shared bathroom are for you. Politely inquire, "What towels would you like me to use?" If you are provided a guest bathroom, still keep it neat and always hang the towels up in an orderly manner.

13
Be clean yourself and try to make sure that you do not pass anything to your hosts. If you have anything contagious, you should take care with hygiene (use shower sandals, use alcohol gel if you have a cold). If you are traveling with children, and they get something contagious, cancel your trip unless you absolutely have to go. Nothing is as cheerless as a family struck down by a stomach flu because a guest brought it.
14
When getting up in the night or very early in the morning, remember to be careful not to disturb your hosts. Aside from concerning them and making them think you may be in need of help, it makes for tired hosts and significant annoyance. Loudly banging doors,flicking on lights outside their bedroom, or generally making a lot of noise will ensure that you're remembered as that guest they will never want to have stay again. Guaranteed.
15
If you're sharing a bathroom, be considerate. Don't drape your wet towel over the hosts towels. No matter how much they like you, they probably don't want to discover that you're sharing their towel either. Don't rummage around in their cupboards looking for a toothbrush or toothpaste, or shampoo. Unless told otherwise, don't help yourself to their razor or hair products or lotions. Keep the sink and mirror clean. If you have a condition like tinea, be careful to wear flip-flops in the shower and apply medication so as not to spread this to your hosts. A disease is not the kind of parting gift your hosts will thank you for.
16
Take some time out to be on your own, to allow your hosts to have some time to themselves without having to "entertain" you. If you're staying with your hosts for any length of time, it's a good idea to regularly schedule in going for a walk, or retreat to your room to read a book or take a short nap at a convenient time. This way the hosts can plan to get caught up on things they may have put on hold while you are staying with them.
17
If the hosts have pets, be respectful of their needs too. Don't try to "make" the pet like you or subject it to being patted or give it too much attention if it's obviously getting anxious. Some pets get stress related illnesses like diarrhea following having visitors in the home. Don't feed the pet tid-bits without first checking with your host.
18
Don't keep the hosts up late. It doesn't matter how long it has been since you last saw them, or how many exciting stories you have to tell them. Let your hosts get to bed for a decent night's rest. You may be feeling so excited at seeing them that you don't even notice your own exhaustion from traveling, so it will benefit you to go to bed at a reasonable hour, too. Likewise, don't sleep in and make your host family tiptoe around you. Be considerate. Bring your own earphones for listening to music or for watching TV, so as not to disturb your host, who may prefer some quiet time, or doesn't share your appreciation for music or certain TV shows.
19
Always offer to help at mealtimes.
Always offer to help at mealtimes.
Always offer to help at mealtimes. There is nothing more debilitating than having guests who sit around waiting expectantly for all meals. This is when a stay crosses over from being homey to like being in a hotel. It doesn't mean crowding the host out of the kitchen, but it does mean collecting plates, carrying out dishes, offering to wash up or stack the dishwasher, cleaning off the counters, and taking the garbage out. You could even offer to cook a meal or two yourself. If you're not sure what to do, ASK! Even if the host may say, "Nothing!", insist that you do at least one thing. Very few hosts can say no to this offer! This is particularly important if your hosts are working and you are not. If you are taking the time to cook for yourself, cook enough for your hosts- especially if you are using your hosts' kitchen staples and supplies.
20
Don't make assumptions. Unless you are specifically told to "help yourself to anything" in the refrigerator or pantry, always ask before taking something, and never take the last of anything. This is especially true of left-overs which are not easily reproduced, or expensive items. If you must eat your host's food while they are unavailable for consent, a good idea is to pick up some more to replace what you ate. The level of importance is often based on convenience (e.g., if the grocery store is far away, and you eat the last of something, your host is more likely to be annoyed than if the store is 2 blocks away and easily accessible), and the income level of your hosts (e.g. if your hosts make a lot of money and spend without ever worrying, they are less likely to be concerned about rationing the food than someone who makes very little money and lives on a tight budget). Though keep in mind that many people who make a lot of money may frequently experience house guests whose attitude is that they can well afford to pay for them so it may be a pleasant surprise for them to have a thoughtful house guest offer to help out even if that help is declined. In most cases, your hosts will likely not say anything if you commit a faux-pas like one of these, but that does not mean they didn't notice. In an effort to avoid any tension or inconvenience to the host(s), you should assume "you ate it, you replace it". Note: buying the same product but keeping it in a separate area from the common food or eating all of it yourself, or taking it with you when you leave does not mean "replacing" it. Also, do not assume that it is OK to go through your host's closets, drawers, etc. when you need something. Ask where you can find it or if they can get it for you.
21
Offer to make contributions. Even if you're not eating at your host's home, offer to purchase the groceries (after all, you still need their toilet paper!). This is usually the most burdensome additional cost for your hosts. Remember that they have probably already been shopping for extra groceries and spent a considerable amount of time and money to get ready for your visit. You could either bankroll their next supermarket trip, or you could offer to go out and buy things for both yourself and for them (ask them for a list). If your host is embarrassed to give you a list, make regular financial contributions, like accompanying your hosts to the supermarket and paying at the checkout, or leaving money out in an obvious place on a regular basis clearly indicating it is for groceries. If your host does not accept this make sure you buy grocery items regularly that are consistent with the items they use in the home. For longer stays of more than a couple of days, assisting with the grocery bill is crucial! Whatever the length of your visit, you should at least offer to take your hosts out for dinner. It should be the restaurant of their choice; although if you suggest it the right way, they also might enjoy a restaurant featuring local cuisine that they think will impress you as a visitor.
22
Be aware of cultural/personal/family differences. For example, you may be an omnivore staying with a vegan family, but it is always polite to try what they offer to serve you. Be respectful, and do not criticize your hosts' preferences. If eating a certain kind of food is a violation of your cultural or religious beliefs, please let your hosts know before you arrive. They will no doubt appreciate the heads-up, and respect any cultural or religious beliefs you may have. And if you were brought up to believe that men don't do housework and your hosts think otherwise, it's time to step out of your comfort zone and contribute to the household like everyone else is expected to. Remember, your buddy's wife is not your cook or your maid and if she was not okay with your stay, your buddy would show you the door -- so recognize that. It is irrelevant how long you have known your friend or whether you treat your own wife like a maid -- your friend will absolutely side with his spouse if he sees you acting like an unappreciative pig and treating his wife like your maid.
23
Be appreciative. Show appreciation for the local food, sightseeing, and other attractions. Do not criticize or compare anything in a superior way to how things are done where you live. If your hosts have provided you with a home-cooked meal, show your appreciation by offering to take care of the next meal. If your hosts were thoughtful enough to have prepared special accommodations for you, (e.g. providing toys for your kids) make sure that you return the toys as they were lent to you (parts intact, in the correct boxes, etc.) so your hosts don't need to spend time re-organizing after you leave.
24
Do your own laundry.
Do your own laundry.
Do your own laundry. Don't be embarrassed about asking whether it is okay to do your laundry at your host's place. They understand that after a few days you'll have dirty underwear. Don't make the request sound like you're hoping they might add your laundry to their laundry chores. And never presume that the washing machine or dryer is available; always ask your host when the most convenient time is for you to do your laundry, emphasizing that you don't want to cut into the household's normal routine.
25
Entertain yourself. Your hosts are offering you their home but not necessarily their time. Let your hosts make it clear whether or not they have the time to take you to places, or to spend entire evenings with you. They may work from home and need to take calls without the TV blaring from the other room. They may work during the daytime away from home, or work the night shift and have to sleep during the day. Don't presume that you can rely on their generosity to drive you to places or to show you around. Be prepared to catch public transportation and taxis. Alternately, rent a car for yourself, especially if you plan on seeing many of the local sights, or if you are more active than your hosts. Your hosts may have already visited the sights many times before, especially if they live in a tourist-destination town. If they do take you to sights they have seen, make sure you pay their admittance if there is a charge. After all, you would have had to pay much more if you went on an organized tour or were paying accommodation costs to be there. Sightseeing costs are additional for hosts as a direct result of having you as a guest.
26
Be home on time. Unless you have made a clear arrangement with your hosts that you'll be coming and going as and when you please, give your hosts an idea of when you'll return. If your hosts are providing you with an evening meal, be there at least half an hour before meal time. This gives you time to assist with the meal, help set the table or carry out other household chores. If you're late for a meal, call first and explain. Better yet, if you've been out sightseeing all day and know that you'll be home late, don't come home hungry - assuming that your host is waiting to feed you. Have dinner while you're out, or bring dinner home with you, (pizza will do!) and bring enough for your hosts. Be extra quiet on arriving back late, and if given a key, use it. Then, turn out the lights and make sure to lock the door behind you.
27
Be careful about Internet and phone usage. If you need to use the Internet or phone at your hosts' home, rather than assuming you can use their facilities, make sure you ask them first if this is okay with them. Ask them if they have dial-up or broadband internet, and if your usage for a certain amount of time will cost anything. If there are costs involved (especially with long-distance calls), make sure you leave adequate payment. Better yet, use your own cell phone. Regardless of the financial implications, sitting on the Internet all night is just plain rude. If you do use your hosts' computer, be thoughtful and just check your e-mails, your favorite updates and then shut down and return to the conversation. If you need to read your e-mail, why not source the Internet at a local cafe or library, rather than from your hosts' home? This will be less intrusive, and not interrupt their schedule (i.e. children's homework, etc.)
28

Leave a thank-you gift on your departure. Again, nothing overly expensive if you have had a brief stay; just a small token of appreciation to show that you appreciated their hospitality. The value of the gift should be relative to the length of your stay. Flowers, a bottle of wine, fresh berries or a hand-written card are nice tokens. Do your homework, and try to choose something that you know they will like. Give some thought to how you would like your hosts to remember you. Do you want to be invited back? If you can't get to a shop to buy a suitable gift, consider having flowers delivered. Remember, certain flowers in some cultures are associated with mourning - show sensitivity and good sense.
29
Strip your bedclothes on leaving. You're not staying in a hotel and your host will have to wash your sheets and towels when you leave. Make it easier by removing sheets, pillow cases and any other linens. Place them in a neat pile on the foot of the bed or in the laundry hamper. Better yet, start washing them for your host. After all, you've probably been washing your own clothes during your stay, so you'll be familiar with using the washer and dryer. During your visit, if you've stayed long enough that your sheets require washing, do them yourself and remake your own bed. Make sure to factor in utility costs and cleaning products into any remuneration you will give to your hosts. Does your host use a housecleaning service? Offer to pay for it. You may even offer to contribute to the cost of cleaning supplies and laundry costs (especially if your host lives in an apartment building where coin-operated washer/dryers are expensive to use).
30
Leave quietly and thoughtfully. If you have to leave really early in the morning, say your farewells the night before. If you're departing late at night or early in the morning, book your own transportation. Do not expect the host to run you to the airport or bus station unless the host suggests it, even if you are leaving at a reasonable hour. If you leave when the hosts are at work or are out, make sure you have made prior arrangements to leave the keys somewhere safe and that you're sure how to lock the place up properly.
31
Don't outstay your welcome. A short stay is a pleasant stay and leaves everyone feeling good about each other. As Ben Franklin once said, "Fish and visitors stink after three days." If you are staying for a longer period, consider putting the arrangement on a business footing, or finding ways to leave and stay elsewhere for a few days to give your hosts some private time. If you think you're an exception to this rule because you've been buddies with your friend for 20 years, don't. Do you think your friend who is married without children wants to host your family with two kids for an extended period of time? The answer is probably not. If you think you're an exception, go ahead and "check in." And by "check in" this would mean asking "How is this arrangement working for you?" vs. "Dude, sorry we're here." The latter merely states the obvious and is not a helpful way to give your host a convenient segue to suggest alternative housing options.
32
Send a thank-you note. Send a small card or an e-card to say thanks when you return home. Yes, it's a lot of thank-you's, but it's polite to acknowledge the fact that your hosts opened their home to you, and it keeps the potential open for a repeat stay when your visit is remembered amicably by all. This is particularly important when you know the timing of your visit was not ideal for your hosts but they agreed to accommodate you anyway. An example of an unideal time to be visiting for an extended period of time is prior to your hosts' wedding, and it is especially important to show explicit appreciation if you did not help with meals, with cleanup, or offer financial contributions for your stay.
33
Do not invite other people to the residence without first clearing it with your hosts. This is just common courtesy, as you are a guest in their home. Inviting your friends over for the day or for overnight stays without your host's permission is not appropriate. Respect for your hosts' authority on who comes and goes within their own home is paramount. It doesn't matter if the extra visitors are pleasant to be around or loud and rude, having even more people afoot can be an additional financial burden as well as an inconvenience, especially if they were not personally invited by your hosts.
34
Don't behave as if it's your own home. Be respectful of their belongings and adapt to your hosts' lifestyle. There may be children, pets, elderly parents, etc. in the home, which you may be unaccustomed to living with. After all, you no doubt knew this before you came! Enjoy it, and try to learn something from the experience. Also, be very careful with your language around younger children. They will remember and repeat anything you say, good or bad. You should be adapting to their lifestyle, not expecting that they accommodate yours.
35
Speak in the same language, literally. If you are a house guest who speaks a foreign language, try to do so sparingly in front of your hosts. This is a general courtesy that applies to other situations, but it's more important when your hosts who are housing you are present and attempting to entertain you or just live their lives normally.

 

[Laura]

Additional "how to be a good guest" tips, some of which might apply to daily life in any household:


Some hosts are not bright and chipper first thing in the morning, and may be accustomed to quiet, private time. If you are unsure, err on the side of giving your host a little private time, they may be accustomed to it.

Always offer to help in the kitchen. Be sensitive - if it becomes clear when you're asking to help that your host is a one-person-in-the-kitchen cook, leave it alone. If this is the case, there are other ways you can help out in the house. Be lateral in thinking about ways to help. Respect their customs and choices, just as you'd want yours respected in your home.

Some hosts like guests that will help themselves and make themselves feel at home.For example, some will like if you get yourself your own snacks, while others will not. Try finding out if your host likes if you do or not.

If your host offers to provide your transportation, at least pay for their gas! Remember, it's a round trip drive for your hosts when they pick you up or take you back to the airport or bus station. It's still no doubt cheaper for you than taking a shuttle or taxi, and should not be at your host's expense. Always be generous. Remember, it is insulting to your host to make a token gesture that only covers a very small proportion of their costs, unless you are going to be able to return the favor within a short timescale. When you provide a cash donation towards gas and food, make sure you adequately acknowledge additional expenses, such as the extra costs in meeting you at the airport (e.g. parking, and costs of any day trips on which they may have taken you, as well as basic food and utilities). Otherwise, you run the risk of making your kind hosts feel taken for granted and "used". It is preferable to make donations regularly during your stay, at the time costs are incurred. Your hosts will appreciate this, will see your gratitude in "present time", and can then acknowledge and thank you immediately for making regular contributions.

If you have special dietary needs, bring your own food. Offer to take care of your own special dietary needs and be clear about what this means by way of food preparation. However, be ready to prepare them yourself. If you couldn't bring the items with you, ask your host where you can purchase them.

At times, with certain differences between your lifestyle and your hosts', you may feel like you're treading on tiptoes, but remember, it should be possible to reach a tolerant arrangement for a comfortable stay. Be open, honest and considerate. If it becomes clear that your stay is irritating, discuss with your host how you might make things more agreeable for them.

Pay attention to the security instructions in your host's home; you don't want to expose them to an insurance liability if you didn't lock up properly. Take good care of any keys that they loan you. Offer to replace what you have used.

Some hosts are very fastidious about tidiness and cleanliness. Apart from being as tidy as you can be, also be careful about offering to do cleaning for them apart from picking up after yourself, clearing the table or washing the dishes. If you notice (after you've been there a few days) that the floor needs to be swept, or the carpet needs to be vacuumed, offer to do it. Gauge it from what you know of their usual way of keeping house, and be considerate and tactful.

Warnings


Always keep your personal possessions (clothes, toys, wallets, etc.) out of the common areas. The host may not be the neatest person in the world, but he or she will certainly not appreciate seeing your things cluttering up the living room, dining room or kitchen counters.

Never, ever, gossip about or criticize your hosts, their homes or family members, especially during your stay. It's disrespectful and rude. You'll only declare yourself an ungrateful guest, unlikely to be invited even by those with whom you gossip. Avoid gossip about other hosts you might have had, it makes your current hosts wonder what you will say about them.

Be helpful, and remember that being helpful means doing things that your hosts would normally have to do. Being helpful means that you are saving your host of time, energy, or other expense. If you visit with two kids and they drop food all over the floor when they eat and you spend time every day to sweep the floor, this is not being "helpful." This is picking up after your own family. Similarly, if you are taking the trash out thinking that you're being "helpful" you should recognize that your visiting family of four who is eating 3 meals a day in your hosts' home accumulates a lot more trash than your hosts who are married without kids and who are at work all day. If you are staying in your friends' house for 2 months and cooking only for yourselves and not contributing financially, cleaning up after your own family and taking the trash out is the very least you could do.

Don't be cheap. Nobody likes anyone who is cheap, especially not a cheap (and arrogant) house guest. If you're truly having financial issues, be humble and show appreciation and offer to do things around the house. If you are truly having financial issues, you should feel even more grateful that your friend and his family is willing to help you out during a time of need. The wrong thing to do is float to the couch after a meal they cooked for you, not help with dishes or other chores, and leave w/o leaving as much as a thank-you note. If you weren't helpful, you should at least be grateful -- but to be neither helpful nor grateful after staying in your friends' home for two months with two children immediately prior to your friends' wedding... that is a nightmare of a house guest.

Do not interpret your welcome into someone's home as permission to enter rooms, look in closets, or intrude into any areas where you haven't been explicitly invited. Respect a host's privacy by erring on the side of caution--even when visiting friends or family.

Even if you think your friends are doing well financially, this is not an excuse to not offer to contribute or to not express appreciation for your stay. Your friends are not your parents. A meaningful expression of appreciation would have sufficed, but leaving neither that nor anything else is unbelievable.

Do not bring a pet, even an outside pet, without asking. If your host seems hesitant when you ask about bringing your pet, don't. Not everyone loves your dog as much as you do. If you are permitted to bring your pet, clean up after it regularly.

Always replace anything you damage. Even if it was an accident, you are responsible, and should make it right for your host by fixing the item, replacing the item or leaving a monetary settlement. Doing so shows that you respect another's possessions. Not addressing it can leave long memories of the issue, and it will certainly get around in family or friendship circles.

Were you invited by your hosts for this visit, or did you invite yourself? If you have invited yourself, which is most often the case, these steps are paramount to being allowed to return for another visit. Even if your hosts invited you, keep all of these steps in mind and sincerely do them. Remember, you're on vacation, they're not. Make offers to help and follow through. Your actions, or lack of them, will be filed away in your hosts' memory banks, and good or bad, will be remembered when you ask to return!

If you and your spouse do not talk to each other about anything of substance, this is a recipe for disaster when you spend a significant period of time under your friends' roof. The wife should not assume the husband offered something for your stay (or expressed gratitude in any other way), and the husband should not assume the wife's chores around the house compensates for your stay especially if she was mostly busy bathing the children, since in reality he offered nothing and someone picking up after your family was an expectation for your hosts... your hosts are left scratching their heads wondering what is wrong with you and your wife.

If don't know your way around the town, ask for your host to accompany you on your outings, so that you don't get lost.

 

[Olesya]

The point is, there is a time and place for everything, but good manners will get you a lot further than rudeness, especially in The Work. When good manners and helpfulness only invites more bullying, then maybe it is time to bully back?

I think its possible to take a stand without resorting to being a bully, the caveat to that is, will the bully listen to anything but force in kind?

In that case, being rude would qualify as externally considerate, otherwise the bully can't understand a thing being said. (osit.)

One thing I realized after the encounter was this: the woman still didn't understand a thing. She really was that stupid and mechanical. There was one for-sure benefit and another possible: 1) I sure felt better afterward; 2) she might think twice before she bullies the next person. Which would mean, of course, that she MIGHT have learned something, at the very least about pushing too much. And that lesson would be brought home to her after our atty's last actions in a very serious way.

Hard to tell. I probably should feel ashamed for getting in her face and shouting at her that she was Effing ignorant. But I don't, for some reason. It was true. And I had said it to her in a dozen different polite ways over and over and over again for months. We spent entire days copying and assembling documents that were way more than she was legally entitled to see. We spent hours passing these documents over to her and reminding her that we were doing this as a courtesy, not because she was entitled to see them, which she wasn't. We spent hours explaining to her US corporate law and business practices - which applied - then watching her make faces and insult me by telling me I'm not being transparent because SHE didn't freaking understand. So, no, at the end of it, when I realized that they had made up their minds and were unwilling to be confused by the facts, I just let her know in the fullest way possible what I thought of her and her ignorance, her bullying, her insulting words and actions and that I certainly wasn't going to sit there one more instant and be bullied by her. That was the end.

If a basic bully leaves an encounter learning that his/her behavior isn't tolerated by you or anyone like you, sometimes that's the best outcome.

I don't think standing up for yourself, especially when pushed well past all limits, is a bad thing. Only in movies do we see what I call 'Iron Grace', people who remain unflappable no matter what's heaped on their heads. It's the ideal, yes. Taking a stand in the way you did was reinforcing a healthy boundary, that this woman couldn't see, if you gave her a map, spotlight, and detailed directions. ;D

Yes, I do agree with you, Gimpy. What Laura has done was very, very kind, osit: kind not in the sense of being nice ( that's how this word is usually used), but in the sense of "giving each according to their own kind." And it's not bullying at all. Bullying it's a form of sadism, coming from desire to see someone being squashed, to suffer, to cause someone pain. What Laura did is so admirable: she stood up for HERSELF and, ultimately, for others, ALL of us. A lot to learn for me personally.

 

[mabar]

Sometimes, also (the host) needs to tell the visitors not to help or explain how to do the help in special issues. I'll explain, at my parents home, the garbage issue is to recycle, it can't be mixed. Some friends/family had wanted to help in the kitchen, and with the garbage issue came out a little counter productive, as in other houses the garbage is mixed with organic and non organic, they ended up doing the same in our house. So, we had also learned to treat the garbage issue without making uncomfortable the visitors, because, a family/friend in their intention of helping was putting whatever rest of food in the non organic garbage can and we had to stop him/her short … No!, not there!, not there either!, not that way!, no, you have to clean it first! etc … as well to inform family/friends to not bring disposable serving plates (people do that when it would be a big reunion/party/meeting), because we have to clean them too in order to put them in the non organic garbage can.

I had tried to do the separate garbage in the apartment, but since the owner is a cousin, and he does not believe, nor want to separate them, I have to respect that and not be angry (that much?) when he puts a rest of an apple in the non organic trash can.

 

[loreta]

The advises you put, Laura, are very useful. I was thinking about myself, when I was a host and also some hosts I had that surely need to read these articles. For myself I think I am not bad, again thanks to my parents. This thread makes me thing in a new perspective the education I had from them. I usually think that my parents where not very good parents for me, but in some aspects, like good manners and so, they teach me very good. I don't remember how they teach me this. And today I see my parents with gratitude. It is very difficult to teach a kid to be a good person, in many facets. It is also difficult to be a good person, always. We are good, we are bad sometimes. My father was a very strict man, very honest. Good manners and courtesy come with experience, also. I myself was sometimes acting with bad manners, but experience and awareness of your attitude are good teachers. When you feel shame for something you did in a certain situation it is the beginning of your change.

Thanks!

 

[obyvatel]

There is a small number of exceptional people in society who stand out in a positive way. Similarly, there is a percentage of deviants. In between, there are the regular people who show a range of psychological characteristics. Diogenes of Sinope was most likely an exceptional man. He was not only tolerated but revered by the masses because of the kind of life he led and people could see the essential good-will behind his abrasive actions. People trying to imitate Diogenes' external actions without the corresponding inner development would not be tolerated in any society - osit.

I wonder. Do normals who need authoritarian rules even see inner development? If so, what of successful psychopaths?

Normal people who have a relatively healthy instinctual foundation can recognize goodness or inner development in action . They may not know the fancy lingo and may not be able to explain "why" but they tend to appreciate and respond within their abilities to actions that embody goodwill. It is something like, " I do not care how much you know, but I do know how much you care".

Psychopaths have a defective instinctive substratum and would most likely not understand anything about the type of inner development under consideration here. They would likely show contempt or if it suits some feeding purpose, mimic the lingo or the external behavior to gain advantage. That is my current understanding.


[quote author=whitecoast]
Just in case I've been misunderstood, I'm not advocating "no rules" here, since humans have a definite nature with definite biological/emotional requirements with which to engage with themselves and their environment. I completely understand the importance of a dress code for a snowshoe-ing party, because failing to bring winter protection has a high probability of inconveniencing others down the line. But not bringing a frock to a summer party, simply because it doesn't match what others prefer to wear, I interpret as a "corruption of values" (as you put it) since it is the limbic tail wagging the objective requirements dog. It doesn't mean I wouldn't bring a frock, it just means I wouldn't encourage that convention for its own sake.

I think the only difference between our viewpoints is the number of corrupt rules we see masquerading as good manners, for what it's worth.
[/quote]

Going by the above example, I would say "I do not like to wear a frock coat in summer." Fair enough. Next I say " I do not understand why someone would want to wear a coat in a summer party". That would be a valid question which could have a logical answer. The answer would tell me if my assertion " It is psychopathology and corruption of values to ask guests to wear a frock coat to a party in summer" is a case of straining at gnats and a manifestation of my self importance.

 

[Jasmine]

Good manners is also not judging others.

Discernment and judging are two different things. I was thinking, when writing the sentence, about my experience in Africa, how it is important no to judge others because they have different manners about many issues and good manners is not judging and accepting the others as they act, putting yourself in their culture and accepting it. I remember one simple situation: in Senegal you eat with your hands. For us to eat with your hands is bad manner, for them not. So when staying there you not judge this particular manner and you eat with your hands like them. Eating with your hand, in that case, becomes a good manner because you don't judge. Some men in Senegal refused to salute with women and don't give a handshake, so instead to judge this attitude you accepted it and accepting this attitude that can be perceive as a bad manner you don't judge it and say nothing. Your attitude, I think in that situation, is good manner also.

I do understand your point of view here. "When in Rome..." that is the polite thing to do. I do have some ideas about the judgment part if you care to hear them. "Judgment" has a lofty connotation around it (a field so to speak) as it has been misused to cause pain, suffering and stereotyping people and cultures. It is PI, "politically incorrect" to make judgments, that right there is a huge red flag. I believe "Don't Judge" is a "program". And all the pain, suffering, and hoopla surrounding this word was of design, for the effectiveness of the program. It is a word that denotes making harsh opinions. The system doesn't want us to judge because then we may come to the discernment to resolve our issues & differences. Without the right to judge we are left without the ability to distinguish between people. and that is what the system wants, for everybody to look and act the same. "Johnny and sally are equal on the playground, and don't you dare make a judgment or opinion that Johnny throws the ball better than Sally." Without some way to determine good from bad, we can't properly see something for what it is. It's important that we have a way to distinguish between things, all things. If we live in fear of distinguishing people and their behaviors from the next person for fear of offending anybody, then people are left to act without being held to standards. Standards then deteriorate and meritocracy reigns king. And I think this ties into this topic of Rude manner-less people. Poor behavior becomes the norm, and in the workplace too. Our society is conditioned now that this is the norm. I think we humans are hardwired to judge, it's how we compare things. If we quietly use our good judgment as our inner moral compass to help distinguish right from wrong, good from bad, it's not going to hurt anybody.

Discernment is different. Discernment is using your intelligence to perceive if something is wrong or not. If I see someone be brute with an animal or a kid, then I use my discernment. Discernment can save your life.

Yes I agree it's different from judging. You provided a good example here. However, similar to judging it helps us distinguish between things. Discernment gives us the ability to distinguish between what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior or actions. And it comes from a "higher" part of ourselves. It helps guide or our choices. It is a strong inner knowing. Discernment stems from "keen perception" and "insight" from a personal and conscious approach via a cognitive process, opposed to judgment which stems from a hardwired knee-jerk reaction.

I have a friend that is obtuse and refuse to understand that her diet and how she feeds her family is almost mortal. I am not judging her. But my discernment is telling me that she is close like a clam and that if she continues with her diet her husband will died of high pressure one of these days. And that her kids (that are adults in fact) are very unhappy not because she is a bad mother (that would be judging her) but because they eat too much carbohydrates.My discernment is telling me that she is obtuse and my discernment is telling me that it is impossible for me to change her mind. So I don't judge her (I am not saying how bad she is, how ignorant and happy to be ignorant she can be, etc.) but I see how she is because of her ignorance and education and feel sorry for her and her family

I'm sorry but this doesn't sound like discernment to me. You've called your friend obtuse, ignorant, uneducated, and a bad mother. It sounds like you're hostile toward her because she won't listen to you, and give you permission to "fix" her family problems. When you accept that she has free will to live as she pleases, and love her exactly the way she is and choses to live, without berating her for who she is, or her life choices, then I will believe you are coming from a place of discernment. And you will not need to pity her anymore you will be happy that she is happy living as she choses.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on the meaning of these words. Perhaps this was a lesson for us both. I learned a lot by this interaction with you as it forced me to further read & understand this subject better. I found an Internet page that was very helpful.

http://awakeningself.com/writing/judgement-vs-discernment/