A mountain of meat blocking my way back…?

[Seaniebawn]

Thanks for the advice about buying only the very best organic meat, to ensure that it will be tasty and nutritious.

Seaniebawn says no hunger pains sometimes for three days after eating meat - I like that. I do not really enjoy cooking very much - one reason why I like eating fruit!

I've been wondering about grilled meat - it tastes better than boiled meat, as I recall. But what about carcinogens - I read somewhere that grilling any kind of food (even toasting bread or roasting vegetables) is unhealthy and can cause cancer?

TBH I think it was just shifting into ketosis/fat burning mode, I didn't feel hungry because I was burning through my fat reserves but even now on a high fat diet I may only eat once, I'm just not hungry I also smoke so it could be this also.

 

[CelticWarrior]

Good Day Ynna,

Unfortunately, cooking is a huge part of this paleo/keto lifestyle. Everything from the meat, rendering fat (or buying it), making bone broth for essential nutrients, and of course destroying anti-nutrients from vegetables such as lectins is paramount to not just surviving, but flourishing with a body that is infused with proper energy production including a strong immune system. My personal favourite method while cooking veggies is using grass-fed butter, but be mindful of the starchy variety such as carrots, potatoes, etc as they are starch and carbohydrate rich (generally leafy green or non-starchy is best). As far as staying full, it is entirely possible to eat much less food since carbs will always tax your gut of it's ability to make use of digestive acids efficiently, being on fat burning will be nourishing and fully satisfying to your appetite.

I've been wondering about grilled meat - it tastes better than boiled meat, as I recall. But what about carcinogens - I read somewhere that grilling any kind of food (even toasting bread or roasting vegetables) is unhealthy and can cause cancer?

It can be hazardous to cook meat or anything to the point of burning it. You've mentioned you like the taste of dried out meat with no tender texture, which one wonders how you've been so conditioned since most would find this unpalatable. I'd say, definitely take the suggestions of getting meat that's high in quality from natural pasture sources. This way you may find a medium cooking will taste better without the toxicity of factory farming. So, here's why it's carcinogenic to burn the meat:

"Back in 1986 there was a Japanese study where the researchers discovered that feeding 'heterocyclic amines' to rats made them develop cancer. These are compounds generated from overcooking meat under high heat. This started the association, repeated so often in our press it has firmly entrenched itself in the collective unconscious, between red meat and cancer. OK, so if you feed rats a large amount of a component found in burnt meat, it gives them cancer. So... don't eat burnt meat, or cut off the burnt parts. No real controversy there. However, since this study was published, some other studies of large populations (epidemiological studies) have tried to back up this connection, suggesting a potential link between meat and cancer."
http://www.sott.net/article/291068-SOTT-Exclusive-The-ultimate-dietary-terror-threat-in-2015-Red-meat-again

It's a mine field of bad research that has caused people to react in terror at red meat, but as one investigates more, it becomes blatantly obvious what the real cause of these cancer cases were. There's plenty of information here on the forum about good cooking practices with others' experiences. And it can become an enjoyable task once you learn to make things loaded with gut friendly ingredients... natural sea salt, fat, they are most satisfying.

Wishing you the very best!

Here's just a few articles that may inspire you further on your progression to a paleo/ketogenic diet:

http://www.sott.net/article/265069-The-Ketogenic-Diet-An-Overview
http://www.sott.net/article/225467-Why-Milk-Is-So-Evil
http://www.sott.net/article/230853-Why-Vegetarians-Are-Eating-Meat
http://www.sott.net/article/234417-How-to-Eat-Meat-Transitioning-Away-from-Vegetarianism
http://www.sott.net/article/289359-SOTT-EXCLUSIVE-Interstellar-bacon-What-do-a-famous-actress-known-filmmaker-and-participants-in-nutritional-research-have-in-common
http://www.sott.net/article/258551-For-a-healthy-heart-stick-to-butter
http://www.sott.net/article/220946-Magnesium-The-Spark-of-Life

 

[Tui]

CelticWarrior, thank you very much for all your advice. Yes, I will have to start like cooking again - I am 69 and thought I really had enough of cooking by now, but it is clear that to make the change to the ketogenic diet I will have to start cooking again. I have started reading ketogenic recipes, so at least that's a start towards cooking!

I have nearly finished reading all the articles you recommended, thank you for those - one person suggests starting on the diet by going to a restaurant. I think I will do that when I am ready for a bigger meat meal so that I do not have to cook it myself at home - I am not ready for that cooked meat smell hanging heavily in the air of my home yet. At home I will start of with something small like a little bit of bacon mixed with vegetables and butter as discussed in previous posts. I'll have to find out how to cook bacon without frying it and changing it to carcinogens. Perhaps just add it raw to the vegetables and cooking it all in lots of butter for 5-10 minutes? - although having bacon that way sounds quite bland.

I can report that the more I read about this subject, the more my vegetarian mindset is changing.

I even had a dream about meat two nights ago. I dreamed I was rinsing a huge leg of lamb, holding it under a running tap outside the house, gently wiping away the water and blood with my bare hands. It was a body part of a really huge animal, if there is is something like leg of beef it would be a better description. Internally, it seems I am readying myself for the switch over to a meat diet again. I have not touched raw meat with my bare hands for decades. In my dream, surprisingly, I felt no revulsion working with the meat. Usually, in real life, the smell of raw meat is quite overpowering for me and I steer clear of the butchery section in shops. But in my dream I was just peacefully and gently cleaning away the blood under the running water with my fingers.

Perhaps there is hope that I will be able to make the transition one day soon.

 

[Foxx]

I'll have to find out how to cook bacon without frying it and changing it to carcinogens.

I don't have any references or data to support this, but I always thought that the claim that grilling something, or causing it to char in any way, created carcinogens was ridiculous. If that were the case, then our meat eating ancestors probably would have died out long ago due to cooking meat over a fire. Since they didn't and since we know that meat is the optimal fuel for the human body (and that grilled grass fed/pastured meat is dee-licious :) ), I don't think it's true and wouldn't worry about it without more concrete data.

 

[Renaissance]

I'll have to find out how to cook bacon without frying it and changing it to carcinogens.

I don't have any references or data to support this, but I always thought that the claim that grilling something, or causing it to char in any way, created carcinogens was ridiculous. If that were the case, then our meat eating ancestors probably would have died out long ago due to cooking meat over a fire. Since they didn't and since we know that meat is the optimal fuel for the human body (and that grilled grass fed/pastured meat is dee-licious :) ), I don't think it's true and wouldn't worry about it without more concrete data.

I looked into this a little, and here's what I found. Rodents were fed massive amounts of Heterocyclic amines (HCAs) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) (found in meat cooked at high temperatures and in charred meat from grilling) which produced tumors. Humans would have to eat an impossible amount of these compounds to compare (see below quote). The issue also involves how the compounds are metabolized with enzymes, which varies from person to person. This seems a significant aspect since we know how much our enzymes get messed up from eating a low fat, high carb diet. And then to compare our metabolism with that of rodents is stretching it pretty far, imo.

_http://paleoleap.com/raw-meat/

To put it another way, even if you ate the meat highest in HCAs (broiled steak), you’d have to eat 642 pounds of steak in one day to get the dose of PhlP used in the mouse studies.

There's some other epidemiological studies, but from what I read they didn't show anything clear; they usually don't anyway.

My guess is that a lot of the hubbub over PAHs in tobacco smoke crossed over into these studies as well.

 

[CelticWarrior]

Hmmm good points Renaissance and Foxx. I hadn't realized the comparison to humans would be so different and yet it seems to make a lot more sense with your perspectives added here. I'm never going to enjoy the taste of burnt to a black crisp meat, but I won't be afraid of the grill marks and some minor charring anymore either.

 

[Miss.K]

CelticWarrior, thank you very much for all your advice. Yes, I will have to start like cooking again - I am 69 and thought I really had enough of cooking by now, but it is clear that to make the change to the ketogenic diet I will have to start cooking again. I have started reading ketogenic recipes, so at least that's a start towards cooking!

I actually found cooking easier on the ketogenic diet when I had an oven (now I don't have one and miss it) But with an oven, I would mostly eat roast pigbelly (the part that has as much fat as bacon) and it´s really easy: one just turns on the oven, put in the meat, then it makes itself in about 2 hours, and one has food for 2 days, as it tastes really good cold too. Only work is to clean the baking pan every 2 days, and once in a while to clean the oven.

(I've got to buy myself an oven ASAP!)

 

[Keyhole]

CelticWarrior, thank you very much for all your advice. Yes, I will have to start like cooking again - I am 69 and thought I really had enough of cooking by now, but it is clear that to make the change to the ketogenic diet I will have to start cooking again. I have started reading ketogenic recipes, so at least that's a start towards cooking!

Cooking can either be a big part of ketosis, or it can be really minimal. It depends on how you like your meat! You can easily just stick a few days worth of meat in the oven or under the grill, sit back and let it cook, then refrigerate it and its done! Although when it comes to fat-bombs, you cant really rely on the oven for that. Although they become easy once you get into the swing of things :D

I can report that the more I read about this subject, the more my vegetarian mindset is changing.

That's great! I am very happy to hear you are starting to read more into the subject Ynna and things are starting to change for you.

I'll have to find out how to cook bacon without frying it and changing it to carcinogens.

I don't have any references or data to support this, but I always thought that the claim that grilling something, or causing it to char in any way, created carcinogens was ridiculous. If that were the case, then our meat eating ancestors probably would have died out long ago due to cooking meat over a fire. Since they didn't and since we know that meat is the optimal fuel for the human body (and that grilled grass fed/pastured meat is dee-licious :) ), I don't think it's true and wouldn't worry about it without more concrete data.

I looked into this a little, and here's what I found. Rodents were fed massive amounts of Heterocyclic amines (HCAs) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) (found in meat cooked at high temperatures and in charred meat from grilling) which produced tumors. Humans would have to eat an impossible amount of these compounds to compare (see below quote). The issue also involves how the compounds are metabolized with enzymes, which varies from person to person. This seems a significant aspect since we know how much our enzymes get messed up from eating a low fat, high carb diet. And then to compare our metabolism with that of rodents is stretching it pretty far, imo.

_http://paleoleap.com/raw-meat/

To put it another way, even if you ate the meat highest in HCAs (broiled steak), you’d have to eat 642 pounds of steak in one day to get the dose of PhlP used in the mouse studies.

There's some other epidemiological studies, but from what I read they didn't show anything clear; they usually don't anyway.

My guess is that a lot of the hubbub over PAHs in tobacco smoke crossed over into these studies as well.

This doesn't surprise me to be honest. I agree with Foxx. How would we have managed to cook meat back in the day? We certainly wouldn't have had stainless steel pots to boil our food in the early days. The way I see it is that if we were using a fire to provide warmth, the most practical way of cooking food would have been to stick it over the fire and let it sizzle! Perhaps that's why it tastes so good when the fat is crispy and the meat it slightly charred, it might be part of our evolutionary ancestral-collective consciousness?

 

[theos]

CelticWarrior, thank you very much for all your advice. Yes, I will have to start like cooking again - I am 69 and thought I really had enough of cooking by now, but it is clear that to make the change to the ketogenic diet I will have to start cooking again. I have started reading ketogenic recipes, so at least that's a start towards cooking!

I actually found cooking easier on the ketogenic diet when I had an oven (now I don't have one and miss it) But with an oven, I would mostly eat roast pigbelly (the part that has as much fat as bacon) and it´s really easy: one just turns on the oven, put in the meat, then it makes itself in about 2 hours, and one has food for 2 days, as it tastes really good cold too. Only work is to clean the baking pan every 2 days, and once in a while to clean the oven.

(I've got to buy myself an oven ASAP!)

Ovens and crockpots are the way to go if you don't want to be overly involved in preparing your meals or if you are crunched for time. Let the applicances do most of the work for you. You can cook once or twice a week and store the excess for leftovers. Perhaps, after you've gotten used to feeding yourself healthy meat meals you will find that you want to branch out and try new things. Cooking can be really fun. And yes, cooking and the ketogenic diet go hand in hand but it doesn't have to be super labor intensive.

 

[MusicMan]

When Australian aboriginals cook their kangaroo which they have killed with their boomerangs, they first hang it in a tree to bleed it. Never mind the flies.
Then they make a large fire and toss the meat around in the coals to singe off the fur/hair and kill any parasites. Then they cover it with coals and let it cook. Yum!
New Guinea natives do something similar, but they wrap their meat in banana leaves before cooking, a luxury not available to most Australian aboriginals.
They have a distinct lack of cooking utensils. Wood only, to poke the coals and the food.

Hint if using stones to keep your fire in check:
Do not use stones taken out of a river. They will explode.

 

[Miss.K]

When I had made the transition, and had gone past craving carbs, I remember going to the supermarket, and seeing shelves after shelves of poison unfit for human consumption, and thinking how little I was a part of the consumer masses that are a big burden on nature, after making the transition, compared to before, and that if everybody ate ketogenic, then all that crap would not have to be produced. and perhaps there would even be room for nature full of animals...

I also found that somehow when getting enough animal fat, I am overall less needy, not only hunger wise, so I think that one easier get into a "only use what one needs" mentality when in ketosis.
This is one thing I remember when I get sad for the animal that gave it's life to sustain mine.

Another thing I remind myself is that due to the way nature works, predators are necessary. When a species don't have natural predators, and not enough other causes of premature death, they multiply and eat everything, finally destroying their own environment, or starving to death (humans are a good example )

I remember a story someone told me, about wolfs being put back in some place they had been extinct, and it had a tremendous beneficial effect on the whole eco system, -I don't remember the details, but that the effect was on things that had not been anticipated, (something like they ate small rodents, so there was more food for beavers, so beaver population grew, so the beavers made lakes due to the dams they build, so that birds returned, and frogs and such, or something like that, and everything got much better for everyone)
And thinking about that, one can not say that the predators are bad, so one should not feel guilty for being one, when one has the body of a predator that needs meat to function well..

It is important to know that the animal has had a long, happy life :)

A long life the animals we eat don't get. They are usually not older than a year, both because the meat gets tough when they get old. (Old chickens can only be used for making soup, and old sheep and goat can taste very strongly sheep and goat like) Another reason is the cost of feeding the animals for longer than necessary, and also, because young males start to fight (can be to death if they have no place to run away to)
In nature the young males leave the herd (or are kicked out by the alpha male) and until they have found a new herd, and challenged and won over an alpha. And in that time they are without herd they are very vulnerable to predators, and many are eaten (also many are killed when fighting for a herd).

In farms, one will typically kill the young males before they start to fight.

I think more important than length of life is quality of life, and also that the death is fast and with as little fear and pain as possible.
A sister of mine had cows at some point (happy grass eating eco cows) and when they had to kill one, they went into the field, and shot one in the head with the thing used for that. The cow did not feel any fear, as it wasn't transported to a kill place that smells of fear and blood, and it was dead before knowing that it was in danger. The other cows did not get afraid at all, but just continued to grass peacefully as the corpse of their fellow cow was chained to a tractor and dragged away. (they seem to accept that someone falls down and don't get up once in a while)

I think the best that one can do to reduce pain and fear bad karma, and guilt, is to try to find meat from a farm small enough to not transport animals to a kill place, but it's not always that easy..

 

[Tui]

Miss K Quote:
"When I had made the transition, and had gone past craving carbs, I remember going to the supermarket, and seeing shelves after shelves of poison unfit for human consumption..."

I stopped buying bread for a while and really felt much better, less bloated - and then I went shopping last week when I was really hungry and the cupboards bare and I bought some rye bread... it's never wise to go shopping for food when you are hungry. I dislike shopping, there are other more interesting things to do, like reading more of the interesting posts on the forum and Laura's excellent articles on the Cassiopaean website.

Explaining about humans being necessary predators and that this also helps keeping the eco system in balance, is good food for thought for me, Miss K. It is helping me reach that point where I could start eating meat again. For instance, I ventured closer to the meat section when I went shopping recently, glancing at the packets of bacon from the corner of my eye, and when I went again, I actually went right up to it and studied the different kinds of cuts with reasonable objectivity and without gagging. This is quite an accomplishment for me, I can assure you.

I am amazed at your story about the cow being shot dead in the midst of other cows, and that the others were not "upset" by this at all. I will have to rethink my assumptions that animals somehow sense their approaching death and that fear then releases floods of poisons into their bodies, which we then consume. Perhaps this is what happens to animals dying in abattoirs, but not those dying peacefully in the meadows. I will definitely not be buying meat from the shops, like the one where I recently looked at the packets of bacon, and will have to find a small farm where the animals are free ranging and where meat can be bought fresh. Such farms will not be easy to find, as you remarked.

 

[Tui]

Odyssey quote:

"Ovens and crockpots are the way to go if you don't want to be overly involved in preparing your meals or if you are crunched for time. Let the applicances do most of the work for you. ..."

Thank you for this advice, Odyssey. I'll have to look up what a crockpot is, but I did google ovens that will do most of the cooking instead of me. I found that the convection oven could be the answer. It also seems very energy efficient. Don't know if there is somebody who knows more about the health aspect in cooking using a convection oven, but as one uses stainless steel or cast iron, it seems OK?

 

[Tui]

Keyhole quote:

"Although when it comes to fat bombs, you cant really rely on the oven for that. Although they become easy once you get into the swing of things..."

I am impressed with the video you and Thorn made on how to make the fat bomb custard, and the clear instructions. You know, I think this recipe could be just the right way to introduce eggs and animal fat back into my diet. English not being my first language, I had to look up the meaning of lard - I knew it was an animal fat, but what animal? I then discovered lard is bacon fat or the fat from a pig, as the dictionaries explain. And I also now know that melting the lard/butter as shown in your video is what is called "rendering fat".

But perhaps I should just start with butter (being used to butter, as I am a lacto-vegetarian) so that I reintroduce only one thing at a time, in this case the eggs? Thanks again, Thorn and Keyhole.

 

[Tui]

Oh, and just another thing that I am not sure about - I've been pondering: is it necessary to eat a lot of meat if it is really the fat that matters? Can one not trim off most of the meat from the fat, as meat is a concentrated source of protein and one does not need that much protein?