A question for a friend about the reliability of the transmission

[Al Today]

I don't know if this is , but an old story of faith and knowledge pops into my mind and I would like to share:

You are out of town and need to buy some juice. You go to an unfamiliar store, walk in and see that it's HUGE. Where is that juice you wonder? You start walking around searching on your own and feel clueless, and you ask someone: "Where is the juice?". They point to a far corner and says juice is in that refrigerated section over there. You think: that sounds reasonable, you see the refrigerated section signs in the distance where the person pointed and you have some FAITH that the person provided some direction. To get that juice YOU now must do some Work. That juice will not come to you on it's own. You start walking, picking your way through the aisles until you come face to face with juice. You now have the KNOWLEDGE of where that juice is.

 

[Franco]

This session transcript certainly adds to the discussion. I know the channeling is referred to as "the cassiopaean experiment" so I can understand yes it is an experiment, but maybe not in the scientific sense. I'm not sure.

What I can say is that the Cassiopaean communications are not rational in that there is not a concrete proof. As the cassiopaeans said, the predictions by them can be dismissed as coincidences. A prediction would prove their existence I think. Not much else. perhaps a "psychic" ability demonstrated by the C's.

But there is virtually no proof of psychic abilities (though I'm sure these exist). I have watched many videos on certain phenomenon. The thing I have to wonder is similar to what SAO was saying--can there be absolute proof of psychic phenomenon? Well, I'm sure there could always be a "logical" explanation, no matter how convincing the phenomenon. So in a sense no, there cannot exist absolute proof.

In a sense asking for proof of the C's is similar to asking for proof of God... or how about that ghosts exist. There is a lot of data for this ghost issue or spirits, but nothing that is irrefutable.

My idea is that... I think of proof as logical or rational, but proof can hinder thinking. If the cassiopaean's were proved to be true...all of a sudden I will stop putting the pieces together...I will stop thinking. I think proof in a sense can stop thinking. A lot of times I like to accept certain things I hear as true, this stops thinking. I think when I am questioning because I am unsure that is when my mind is working and trying to figure things out.

In a way I like that the C's cannot be proved.

it occurs to me, what I am talking about psychic phenomena which is associated with 4D so that is kind of interesting. there is the contrast of materialistic view (3D) and spiritual view.

How about to consider the past? well... I can know what I have experienced hopefully, but not other people. to think of historians, they research what happened, use available data, but we cannot really know the past. certain conclusions are made, there is some types of evidence that we consider "proof". but really there is not such thing as this concept. I think details of any important historic event could be debated.

I have "belief" in the cassiopaean's but this is not the same thing as blind faith which someone might associate it with. Because, I think it is commonly understood that science does not have to be opposed to belief, but that is how it is a lot of time. The other side of the argument perhaps Is: how does one know the C's do not exist? Your friend does not have proof that it is all in Laura's mind (thought in some sense perhaps it is). If someone is convinced the C's do not exist without knowing much about the channeling, that is worse maybe, then someone who has studied the C's and has come to the conviction they do exist.

If you ever met a skilled psychic you would come to the conclusion like I did that the scientific method cannot be applied to certain subjects properly.

When I was 19 I 100% did not believe in psi phenomenon, ghosts, aliens, nothing and laughed at people who did.

Then I went to a psychic, really to catch her out and she knew detailed things about me that was impossible to guess or know.

So still not convinced, I went a second time and the same thing again.

I'm the kind of person that needs proof for everything.

These two psychics sessions really put me into a state of shock as it challenged my oh so know it all belief system.

So really I had to have a personal experience to analyse and be critical about.

I still know this person and have sent probably 15 people to her with the same experiences.

I know the feeling of not wanting to be wrong and I also know the frustration of having discussions with people who could accept these things but just arn't ready.

For some people, no proof will be enough ever.

One of my friends, we have had long discussions about UFOs and he says he wants to believe, but the conclusion we really came to is, the only proof that is good enough would be aliens landing in a UFO and getting out in front of him, so all our conversions were pretty much a waste of time as he won't accept anything reasonable as proof.

So I don't discuss UFOs with him anymore even though he tries.

Trying to discuss the C experiment with people, I really wouldn't even bother unless you are pretty intuitive and know it's something the person might understand.

 

[realitybugll]

For instance, in the discovery of the ATP synthase inside the mitochondria, the researcher had no means to actually look into the mitochondria, so he just abstracted and reasoned a model. Later on, information confirmed his hypothesis of a machinery of ATP synthesis inside the mitochondria.
See? The same process.

Right, this makes sense. In the "scientific method" I guess you could call it, you do experiments (change certain constants in the environment) then you get data, and from the data you come to a conclusion such as "the C's exist". so you come to a proof in a sense, although not really.

The only way I can really understand "proof" is in the mathematical context. Also I have proof I'm eating oatmeal right now, because I'M DOING IT. So, sensory perception I guess.

A persons belief system can be challenged, but at the same time A person can be resistant to a challenge, and ignore it or conform the reality to their beliefs.

More specifically, A person's belief system can be challenged, they will either fit the data to their beliefs, or the belief system will be expanded to incorporate the "objective" data. Having a belief system implies a subjective view of the world, which every man has to one degree or another, I think that is what I'm getting at. I wonder where I'm getting this terminology from...

That experience might serve as an indication of why you shouldn't make any attempts to pressure people's belief systems. Sounds to me like you did a lot of talking to your brother and it backfired on you; and, having your brother believe what you tell him doesn't exactly help him learn to discover truth. He'll do what's in him to do.

hmm, he's my own brother and we are very alike, so it is hard not to come up against his beliefs. A lot of times I think we have discussions which are neutral, and we are not imposing ideas on each other, but then when he will say "they do not exist" that makes me mad, and I say "they do!"
His stance on UFO's at the moment and the nature of phenomenon is that he does not deny or accept them. Something is going on he acknowledges, but he says when other people start to study them, or they are proven to exist, then he will look at the theories. but it is like he said--he wants someone else to do the work for him--and he is not wanting to investigate such a whacko topic. This is a more complicated perspective that I have discussed with him recently. I think at the heart of it, is still disbelief. but I do not want to argue to much with him. I don't exactly have great proof or evidence to believe the account I do of the UFO phenomenon.
I think your'e right. For what its worth, he does not believe things I tell him about the UFO phenomenon or the fourth density reality. But, he does react great a lot of times calling them stupid ideas, and showing a lot of anger--so I am pressuring him even if I don't consider it (I guess).

 

[Nienna]

That experience might serve as an indication of why you shouldn't make any attempts to pressure people's belief systems. Sounds to me like you did a lot of talking to your brother and it backfired on you; and, having your brother believe what you tell him doesn't exactly help him learn to discover truth. He'll do what's in him to do.

hmm, he's my own brother and we are very alike, so it is hard not to come up against his beliefs. A lot of times I think we have discussions which are neutral, and we are not imposing ideas on each other, but then when he will say "they do not exist" that makes me mad, and I say "they do!"
His stance on UFO's at the moment and the nature of phenomenon is that he does not deny or accept them. Something is going on he acknowledges, but he says when other people start to study them, or they are proven to exist, then he will look at the theories. but it is like he said--he wants someone else to do the work for him--and he is not wanting to investigate such a whacko topic. This is a more complicated perspective that I have discussed with him recently. I think at the heart of it, is still disbelief. but I do not want to argue to much with him. I don't exactly have great proof or evidence to believe the account I do of the UFO phenomenon.
I think your'e right. For what its worth, he does not believe things I tell him about the UFO phenomenon or the fourth density reality. But, he does react great a lot of times calling them stupid ideas, and showing a lot of anger--so I am pressuring him even if I don't consider it (I guess).

Even though he is your biological brother does not mean that he is "ready" for the things you are "ready" for. Maybe it is a good time to review external considering, strategic enclosure, and self-importance?

 

[realitybugll]

I was crying twice in the last two weeks, to get him to watch a 15 minute video. I've never felt like that before, but I was resolute in getting him to watch this video to the point of tears. Because, I feel like I listen and discuss with him his ideas, but he does not give back, by letting my talk about what matters to me. And it is not so much what 'matters to me' I guess, but I want him to see something. to see what I'm seeing.

I think I might be on to something here, that I tell myself (tell him) I want him to talk about certain ideas with me. But in reality I want him to believe. This would be imposing on someone. but at the same time I do value his perspective or "beliefs" if we can call them that.

I have to say--when I had the emotional desire for him to sit down and watch this video with me and he would not--this is complicated. It has to do with loneliness. Like the desire was incredibly strong, so much so that eventually cried do to his continual denial... i said "just 15 minutes...we've been talking for hours". What am I really looking for though?

He finally did watch the video with me. Then, I did not care to much what he thought, or his opinion, at that moment, all my desire was devolved and I felt incredibly calm. I didn't care if he "believed" or not, I was very happy or calm and a lot of my frustration was diffused. This leads me to believe that--it is not about convincing him so much--but have him just do something I wanted him to do.

There is a lot of feelings mixed in. I told him, I really need him to do this the desire was incredibly strong, he denied me. I guess that is where the emotions come in. or I already had emotions in my desire for him to watch it.

I'm not sure what to say about our relationship. To be honest it is not that close, but in some ways it is. Is there a feeding dynamic? yes. I don't feel loved by him which is interesting. At the same time I "use him" to pour out a lot of my ideas. I really don't feel emotional connection, but I use him for something. The same he does to me, which is to talk about certain ideas he is researching or learning about.

besides my brother and my mom that I talk to, I have one friend I see once a month or less that we are both friends with, and another person at school that I am recently getting to know.

besides these people I am also very quiet, and I hardly have just small conversations with anyone. I have realized that this factors into our relationship a lot, I think it has to. I'm not living with the social support or relationships I think is needed for physiological health.

Nienna Eluch,

Maybe I will bookmark those pages, but I am not going to read them right now, or if I did I think maybe I would not understand. The way I view it is that, my relationship with my brother is a symptom of: my fear of people, my conception of self. Its my conviction that I am working on this.

I think I am opposed to your help because I feel like you have given me an instruction, but I resist this instruction. And its that I feel I have things I am working on, and now you have given me more work.

I agree with you It is lack of external consideration, and self importance. And I agree with you because I know I am a machine as Gurdjieff says. but what to do about it? last week I have begun to go through ISOTM, certain parts, and am understanding more than I had understood before. because I can relate it to myself and certain thoughts and experiences I have been going through. I knew the spots to revisit and so I am.

I'm feeling uncomfortable with this post because I put a lot into it and not on an appropriate thread. I don't want to ask for anything. maybe this helps understand me. And the basis for this post, I felt "attacked". But I know that you did not attack me...

Okay, my question is, do you think it was appropriate for me to write this? Or should I have put it somewhere else in the forum, like on of my swamp threads. Or just saved it for myself. Because really I am responding to what you wrote Nienna Eluch, but it does not feel like a conscious contribution.

 

[anart]

Okay, my question is, do you think it was appropriate for me to write this? Or should I have put it somewhere else in the forum, like on of my swamp threads. Or just saved it for myself. Because really I am responding to what you wrote Nienna Eluch, but it does not feel like a conscious contribution.

Yes, it was appropriate to write it. You are just beginning to realize that all you want from your brother has nothing to do with him and everything to do with you. It is selfish of you, and STS, and inconsiderate to expect/want him to understand what you understand or even be interested in it. The good news is that it sounds like you are starting to realize that. It is up to you to stop doing this. The reality of the situation is that most of us are born into families where we are the only one who is able to grasp what we grasp. Yes, it is difficult and, yes, it is lonely - but perhaps that is part of the price we pay?

At some point, you have to let your brother be who he is and not who you want/demand him to be.

 

[Iron]

The reality of the situation is that most of us are born into families where we are the only one who is able to grasp what we grasp. Yes, it is difficult and, yes, it is lonely - but perhaps that is part of the price we pay?

At some point, you have to let your brother be who he is and not who you want/demand him to be.

So true, and one of the hardest lessons it was for me. I was so accostumed to be the only one that had interest in such matters that I was taken totally by surprise when two persons I met a year and half ago taken interest in doing EE, the work and all we do here. They actually had to convince me into talk more about it, after they heard me talking about how breathing exercises helped me with allergy attacks.

One thing I noticed is the verity of the affirmation, that anyone who searches for the work and methods of self perfection, if he/she is in the point of his/her evolution that it can be of help, finds the work somehow.

You see, my sister saw me time and time again doing breathing exercises in the solitude of my room, and never took interest.
This friend just heard me talking about the existence of breathing exercises and that they could be helpful and was intrigued to the point of doing them almost for five or six months straight now and delving into the work.

If the person has interest in such matters, they will bring it to you and they will follow the lead of research without the need of being forced. No one can force the pathway of another, we cant even force our growth!

 

[Buddy]

Iron, please excuse me if I am hijacking your thread... :(

Hi wetroof. There is a pattern in your post that many others, including myself, have followed, so I thought it might be helpful to you if I point it out.

First, I know what it feels like to be close to a brother in some respects and not in others. In fact, a part of me has believed that it is because I loved all 3 of my brothers so much that there was a point when I would have paid any price just to be able to sit down beside them on the top of a hill, looking out over some valley and just talk. Talk about everything and experience the closeness of total emotional and intellectual co-linearity.

Although that has never happened and probably never will, I'm OK with it today because looking back I saw the pattern and understood this expression of desire. At least as it applies to me.

This pattern is really just an imbalance in the way Work is progressing at the moment. Frustrations happen in settings, circumstances and at times when people are developing their learning far ahead of the power they have to act on what they are learning about. Not having an outlet, an emotional bottleneck seems to occur since the natural progression of this cycle is interrupted.

Ideally it seems, you would have some way to act on what you are learning - perhaps within a network - so that the support you can receive can help fill your needs by allowing you to express yourself, receive feedback and keep going with plenty of time and energy available to develop new learning capacities and keep an overall upward progress curve.

Also, sometimes gaining new knowledge can unexpectedly tap deep aspirations we had as children when we saw nothing but possibilities and potential and when we thought we could do anything and we could change the world. If this happens, we also need to find a creative outlet for these deep yearnings.

In my personal case, I have reached the point where my Work on myself allows me to let my brothers be who they are. In fact, I am just so happy that they are alive and able to experience life and enjoy the stuff they like and to learn their own way, that I feel the reverse of how I used to feel. I don't want to change them - I sometimes worry if I've ever done anything that would have harmed their potential in any way.

I don't know if this post will help, but I thought I'd let you know I can relate and that I feel you will benefit if you just keep expressing yourself creatively, somehow - even if it's just posting on the forum. :)

 

[realitybugll]

It is selfish of you, and STS, and inconsiderate to expect/want him to understand what you understand or even be interested in it. The good news is that it sounds like you are starting to realize that. It is up to you to stop doing this. The reality of the situation is that most of us are born into families where we are the only one who is able to grasp what we grasp. Yes, it is difficult and, yes, it is lonely - but perhaps that is part of the price we pay?

At some point, you have to let your brother be who he is and not who you want/demand him to be.

I can understand what you said intellectually but I do not think I completely ‘know’ it yet.

I want to say thank you to Bud and Anart and Nienna Eluch. Because I was unapreciative of Nienna Eluch’s help. I think partly I wanted pity in describing my situation with my brother. I don’t think this is an effective way to network, but it is what it is. Today another instance came up where I felt annoyance or unfairness at my brothers response to me. I think I have to observe myself better in these situations.

Concerning my brother, I think there is a potential that he could help me (and I guess I help him). Mostly concerning the Work and not falling asleep, I think the relationship could help me tremendously. There is so much to talk about (our childhood) but for the most part I could not approach this topic. Anyways I see the potential, but for now he is on his own path. We talked about ghosts and spirits and the Ouija Board today, and he is not “against” this topic. He says at first its all ridiculous, but then I tell him that is his belief, and that there is lots of data. We talked for a while and he will agree considering his knowledge or experiences more closely perhaps, that there is something to the phenomenon. And we talk about, is there a framework to fit the data to, and could it make sense with mathematics or physics. We didn’t talk so much about this, but just considered the possibility. So he is open I found out, and it is interesting because I never had the intent I did in engaging with a conversation with him like I did today. So, at the same time, ghosts and spirits is not the data he is interesting in looking at. And I think I respect this, and I should not force him to look at what he does not want to. I sent him an excerpt from this book I am reading, also a link to a certain post by Ark on this forum I read today. So, maybe I should not do this, but some things I find intrigue in and think he will share this. Or sometimes I know he might reject something but I hope he won’t. Because I talk to him about what matters to me, not for the reason to make him angry (for the most part)…but I see still…I can be more considerate. Like I did state before I am most interested to see what is exactly going on with me when I see his response as so “unfair” that it makes me cry or emotional. I suspect there is a lot at work here in this reaction. And I try to rationalize it, even to him, in the brink of this emotional insanity I say “see why I am so upset…it is because you feed off I me…and I give so much time to you…and you give no time to me”. But like I just wrote this some kind of rationalization which prevents me from understanding something deeper.

 

[Iron]

I can understand what you said intellectually but I do not think I completely ‘know’ it yet.

I want to say thank you to Bud and Anart and Nienna Eluch. Because I was unapreciative of Nienna Eluch’s help. I think partly I wanted pity in describing my situation with my brother. I don’t think this is an effective way to network, but it is what it is. Today another instance came up where I felt annoyance or unfairness at my brothers response to me. I think I have to observe myself better in these situations.

Its okay, you realized that you could be fishing for pity about your situation, which is good. If you observe a program running once, you can see it again.

Concerning my brother, I think there is a potential that he could help me (and I guess I help him). Mostly concerning the Work and not falling asleep, I think the relationship could help me tremendously.

You believing you can "help him" is nothing more than narcissistic speak. You can help you brother if he requests your help in his own way. Not by determining yourself what would be "help" for him. Also, are you not daydreaming or wishful thinking? About a partner in search, when reality dictates it is not exactly how you are fantasizing it?

There is so much to talk about (our childhood) but for the most part I could not approach this topic. Anyways I see the potential, but for now he is on his own path. We talked about ghosts and spirits and the Ouija Board today, and he is not “against” this topic. He says at first its all ridiculous, but then I tell him that is his belief, and that there is lots of data. We talked for a while and he will agree considering his knowledge or experiences more closely perhaps, that there is something to the phenomenon. And we talk about, is there a framework to fit the data to, and could it make sense with mathematics or physics. We didn’t talk so much about this, but just considered the possibility. So he is open I found out, and it is interesting because I never had the intent I did in engaging with a conversation with him like I did today. So, at the same time, ghosts and spirits is not the data he is interesting in looking at. And I think I respect this, and I should not force him to look at what he does not want to. I sent him an excerpt from this book I am reading, also a link to a certain post by Ark on this forum I read today. So, maybe I should not do this, but some things I find intrigue in and think he will share this. Or sometimes I know he might reject something but I hope he won’t.

I think you would do well to re-read the post made by Anart, and read the pages on the esoteric glossary suggested.
Have you read the Big Five books on psychology?

Because I talk to him about what matters to me, not for the reason to make him angry (for the most part)…but I see still…I can be more considerate. Like I did state before I am most interested to see what is exactly going on with me when I see his response as so “unfair” that it makes me cry or emotional. I suspect there is a lot at work here in this reaction. And I try to rationalize it, even to him, in the brink of this emotional insanity I say “see why I am so upset…it is because you feed off I me…and I give so much time to you…and you give no time to me”. But like I just wrote this some kind of rationalization which prevents me from understanding something deeper.

Your use of the word unfair is most interesting. So, you give your time to him only in expectation that he listens to you?
You listen to him for your own purposes?
I understand that you wish that your brother was a seeker in the same fashion you are, so that you feel less alone, but try to understand that he is a different person, with different desires.

Iron, please excuse me if I am hijacking your thread... :(

Its okay Bud, the thread is not mine,it is for use of the network. And I think that the main question has been answered.

I wonder if wetroof wants to pursue this subject of the relation with your brother in another topic, to avoid confusing others that may search for this topic looking for answers for the main question.