About David Icke & James Redfield

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Icke has made a spectacle of himself over the reptilian issue

... well put.

Thanks a lot, ya'll. E and Alderpax... wow. Hope my add is worthwhile.

Very. Any post that adds something new is valuable. :)

[quote author=potamus]

I first met David Icke in 1997, before his reptilian idea was expounded very much. He liked to use the expression "Prison Warders" back then.

I read everything of his, all of his DVDs, etc. up until a few years back. I actually went to see him in San Jose last year to try and find out "what's new."

[/quote]

It sounds like you have pretty extensive knowledge of Icke's stuff. Since you saw him in 1997 and again recently, did you notice any differences in his way of behavior? I'm thinking more about how he seemed when he was off-stage - if that differed between the two occasions, and if it differed from his behavior on-stage. This might not be something you can say for sure, but I'm curious about it because it could indicate if he's putting on an "act" at certain times. It could also indicate if he was changed by Arizona Wilder in the way Ivan Fraser claims, or even by whatever "force" he claims is feeding him information.

[quote author=potamus]

I lauded him at least once for having such courage to speak to power, but then I almost said the same of Alex Jones once upon a time.

[/quote]

I know what you mean; I used to admire both of them too for that reason.


[quote author=potamus]

My input is related to one of Icke's central themes :

1) That we are being manipulated by unseen forces with unclear intent.
2) That these unseen forces are associated with certain, preferred bloodlines.

These two ideas, particularly the second, could use more of Icke's time and attention IMHO. But he has moved on as if they are successfully concluded. In particular, I would've liked Icke to address more of the specific family lineages that he casts aspersions about, and their method of organization and control. Bilderberg/Bohemian meetings aside, there simply must be more communications going on within any management organization of this kind. How? Where?

I also wondered once that if this highly unusual book: "The Dragon Legacy: The Secret History of an Ancient Bloodline" by Nicholas de Vere and Tracy R. Twyman, is correct in its assertion that current "Prison Warders" are not in the special bloodline, but rather merely "Merchant Class" mockery as de Vere essentially puts it, then please answer David Icke, who is really who around here?

[/quote]

I don't know all the details of Icke's bloodline idea, but I do think he's barking up the wrong tree a bit. He's placed an awful lot of importance on it, because it's a necessary piece of his "reptilian shape-shifter" puzzle. But if we understand the leaders to be psychopaths instead of reptile "hybrids," their obsession with pure bloodlines would just be one of their pathological quirks. They think it matters, but in truth it's just another crazy thing that they do. Still, if de Vere and Twyman are right that the bloodlines are no longer in power today, that would put a serious chink in Icke's entire worldview... So I'd like to hear what he'd say about it too. I wonder if one of the reasons he's moved on is because he's come across info like that, and he doesn't know what to do with it. So he's just kind of downplaying the bloodline thing now. That's just speculation, though.

[quote author=potamus]

That said, the idea that Icke is dis-information was met warmly by me, who had already lost faith partially because of the weak technical arguments that he now uses. To discuss a holographic universe, and invisible frequencies in Silicon Valley when you don't understand it yourself can amount to hand waving in front of a tough audience if you are not very careful!!!

[/quote]

Indeed. I'd love to see Icke expound on his technical arguments in front of Ark and Laura. In fact, I'd pay to watch that. :)

[quote author=potamus]

Microchips, mind control, police state, control tactics used by royalty, all are important topics, though as pointed out by Laura, UFOs seem to be scantly addressed. (Though I last year when I saw him, it was at a UFO conference!)

[/quote]

Yes, they're important topics, but the devil is in the details, as Laura has said. A COINTELPRO researcher can cover a lot of truth, but add tiny twists here and there that render the whole thing deceptive. It is odd that Icke doesn't say much about UFO's. He focuses a LOT on the human conspiracy, goes into the "fourth-dimensional" aspect, then seems to jump straight into his fluffy New Age "solution." He doesn't delve that deeply into the details of the "reptilians," other than explaining the "logic" of how they can exist (stuff about frequency range, etc). The only aspect of them he spends much time on are the shape-shifting hybrids and their political antics (plus their blood-drinking ritual stuff, thanks mostly to Arizona Wilder). And this stuff, in reality, has nothing to do with "reptilians" at all. It only does in the mind of Icke.

[quote author=potamus]

Right or wrong in his theories, he has burgeoned his scope too broadly now (IMHO) to accomplish much in the way of any detailed work.

[/quote]

This is a good point, and Icke may be doing this based on the info from his "guiding force." It could be far more vague and general than the detailed data that comes from the "five-sense" research he plans to stop doing.

[quote author=potamus]

The questions above stated above by several posters about him possibly co-opted midstream are intriguing, and yes: he stated out right in San Jose in 2008 that he could tell that he was surrounded by positive forces that were shaping his work. Is that like the visitation dream had by Johnny Cash when Queen Elizabeth poured inspiration on him? :O

[/quote]

His discussion of these "forces" seems to have become more prominent in the last few years, which is extremely interesting. Regarding Johnny Cash, I found what you were referring to - the events that inspired his song "The Man Comes Around (from http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/song/miller.html:"

[quote author=Elizabeth Miller]
The song begins with Johnny Cash reading from the Bible, which is what, so the story goes, inspired the song. Cash, apparently, had a dream in which he was talking to Queen Elizabeth II and she accused him of being "a thorn tree in a whirlwind." When Cash woke up he was intrigued by the Queen's words, so he checked his Bible and found that they were from the Book of Job. Unable shake the dream from his head, Cash began writing a song loosely based on the Bible passages he read as a result of the dream. Seven years later, the song emerged as "The Man Comes Around," which, lifting verses directly from the Book of Revelations, is arguably the most outwardly gospel tune Cash has ever written.
[/quote]

Not sure what to think about that, really. Good song, though.

[quote author=potamus]

So... now my main point (also stated above by others): My mind was opened by Icke to a possibility, one which led me to "The Wave." Let me say that again. I was definitely more receptive to the Wave books once I had been "fertilized" by Icke. I wonder, as a font of dis-info, how many are only exposed briefly to Icke via one lecture or DVD, etc.? The take-home message for the one-timer may be that we are controlled by a highly organized hierarchical structure which, given the scope and effectiveness of the scheme, we argue might is operated by outside forces. (Outside the visible human race, that is.) This take-home message was huge for me in 1997, and ergo perhaps for others, despite what he may have done since. So I am grateful to him for that.

[/quote]

Same goes for me; Icke helped me a lot initially, and who knows where I'd be without him. I think that he can have different effects on different people, just like Alex Jones and others. A disinfo agent is taking a slight risk that some will "get away" and actually reap benefits, instead of sticking with him to the bitter end. Part of their "gig" is to build a loyal following, but they can't control all possible outcomes - especially since they DO turn people on to some heavy Truths. But so many people can get stuck in a "cult of personality" hero-worship type of mindset... Meaning these guys will always have plenty of followers. People like us are "acceptable losses" in their grand scheme. I'm not saying that Icke himself is scheming like this, necessarily. It could be someone else doing it without Icke's knowledge.

How did you first find "The Wave," by the way? I ask because, even though I was an Icke follower when I discovered the C's, that fact actually had nothing to do with me discovering them. I was looking for info on abnormal psychology to help a friend, and I came across some psychopathy articles on the Cass site. I bookmarked them and more-or-less forgot about them. Several months later I re-discovered them in my bookmarks and decided to explore the site further. That's when I started learning about the C's - and was completely floored. It freaked me out that I had accidentally stumbled upon a site that lined up so well with stuff I had learned from Icke (although not nearly as well as I thought at the time, of course). So even though Icke did help me to be open to the ideas, he had nothing to do with me finding the C's in the first place.


[quote author=potamus]

I wrote a short story about these 'lizzies' to try and clear my mind on the subject. It is entitled: "Back into the Meat" The scientist in that story goes from fear of the reptilians to pity. I posted it here two years ago, but chickened out and pulled it. (Now is has become a 450 page epic SciFi thriller, where the battle goes public!! How to publish?)

[/quote]

It sounds like an interesting story concept. I hope you do find a way to publish; I'd love to read it. Do you still have the original story available (if you don't want to show it, that's ok)?

[quote author=potamus]

"Trance-Formation Of America" The original had no ISBN. I'd like to get my copy back for comparison with the later versions.

[/quote]

Is there supposed to be a difference? Or are you just wondering if there is? I have the thirteenth edition, released in 2001. I'd like to know too if something was changed from the original.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Credo Mutwa said this to the media end of last year:

http://www.dailynews.co.za/?fSectionId=&fArticleId=nw20081119170715817C604394

Hope he wasn't referring to a reptilian takeover. His accurate predictions kind of send chills down my spine.

Very intriguing article; those predictions make me think, and I'm also wondering what he knows that would make them "weak at the knees"... I think there may be something to Credo Mutwa. Could his stories about the Chitauli be something other than what Icke thinks? It's possible that due to communication/cultural differences, Mutwa thought Icke's view lined up with his own, while Icke thought Mutwa's view lined up with his own. Therefore, they both "agreed" with one another. An example of Gurdjieff's statement that nobody truly understands each other, maybe?

Trying to remember ... Did CM state that he himself had eaten the Chitauli meat?

Yes he did, but it was actually the meat of a "Grey alien." Here's what he said about this in an interview with Rick Martin (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_credo_mutwa03.htm):

I have never asked Zulus about the 'Chitauri' in particular, I am more concerned with their beliefs which result in social problems, like the raping of virgins or infants as a cure for AIDS, 'corrective' rape as a cure for homosexuality, witchcraft accusations, and of course muti, resulting in all the muti killings.

Wow... I'm interested to hear what the Zulus say about the Chitauri, but I'd also like to hear what Mutwa has to say about these things you mentioned. If he condones them, what does that indicate about him? But if he condemns them, why do the Zulus do them if they revere Mutwa so highly?

[quote author=E]

The Tikoloshe is another 'unsolved mystery'. Everyone has apparently seen it with their own eyes. I have often thought it would make a great documentary - since the Tikoloshe is a belief across the whole of Southern Africa, and just mentioning it has everyone’s attention! I have considered the possibility that the Tikoloshe might be 4D...

[/quote]

Or maybe a dimensional "window-faller"? Very interesting...

[quote author=E]
We have a bit of a clash of civilizations down here...never a boring day! :)
[/quote]

Ah, well this explains a bit. I somehow missed the fact that you are in SA. Now I REALLY get the "lekker" thing! I've heard that Nelson or Winnie Mandela (can't remember which) is a huge fan of Icke... Do you know anything about this? I searched the Web and found nothing. But I know I read it someplace.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

For the sake of accuracy, here's a bit more data for the pile...

I came across a more complete version of the incident involving psychic Betty Shine (from an Icke article here: http://www.truthcontrol.com/node/david-icke). Emphases mine.

In March, 1990 after playing football with his son Gareth, David went to get his son from a newspaper shop and take him to a cafe. As David turned to walk towards the cafe he realized that his feet were stuck to the ground as if they were pulling him to the floor. He heard a voice in his head tell him, "Go and look at the books on the far side."

Confused by what was going on David Icke listened to the voice and was led to discover a book by a psychic lady. Intrigued by this book and the presence he felt around him David decided to set up an appointment with her.

On the third visit David felt like the spirits were trying to make contact with him. Within 15 seconds the psychic lady experienced the same thing and on 2 difference occasions was asked to tell David the following:

He is a healer who is here to heal the earth and he will be world famous. He will face enormous opposition, but we will always be there to protect him. He is still a child spiritually, but he will be given the spiritual riches. Sometimes he will say things and wonder where they came from. They will be our words. Knowledge will be put into his mind, and at other times he will be led to knowledge.

He was chosen as youngster for his courage. He has been tested and has passed all the tests. He was led into football to learn discipline, but when that was learned it was time to move on. He also had to learn how to cope with disappointment, experience all the emotions, and how to get up and get on with it. The spiritual way is tough and no-one makes it easy.

We know he wanted us to contact him, but the time wasn't right. He was led here to be contacted, not to be cured. But one day he will be completely cured. He will always have what he needs, but no more.

Don't try to do it all alone. Go hand in hand with others, so you can pick each other up as you fall.

One man cannot change the world, but one man can communicate the message that will change the world.

He will write five books in three years.

Politics is not for him. He is too spiritual. Politics is anti-spiritual and will make him very unhappy.

He will leave politics. He doesn't have to do anything. It will happen gradually over a year. (Exactly as happened)

In 20 years there will be a different kind of flying machine, very different from the aircraft of today. Time will have no meaning. Where you want to be, you will be.

There will be great earthquakes. These will come as a warning to the human race. They will occur in places that have never experienced them. Taking oil from the seabed is destabilising the inner earth. The centre of the earth will move and the poles will change. The sea spirits will rise and stop men taking oil. The sea will reclaim the land and humans will see that they cannot do these terrible things. They cannot abuse the elements. They have to be treated with respect.

- www.davidicke.com

A few observations:

- "Sometimes he will say things and wonder where they came from. They will be our words. Knowledge will be put into his mind, and at other times he will be led to knowledge." This entire thing is STS to its core. Free Will seems to mean absolutely nothing to these entities. Note also that they're not asking Icke if they may do all of this, nor are they responding to him asking them. They're coming to him out of the blue and telling him that this IS what will happen.

- "He was chosen as youngster for his courage. He has been tested and has passed all the tests." This makes me wonder what the "tests" consisted of, and exactly how far back did they start preparing him for what he is now?

- "He was led into football to learn discipline, but when that was learned it was time to move on." According to this, they both "led" him into football and decided when it was time for him to quit. Note that in 3D reality, what forced him out of football was his arthritis, which he has to this day as far as I know. Does their statement here mean these entities caused the arthritis?

-"He also had to learn how to cope with disappointment, experience all the emotions, and how to get up and get on with it. The spiritual way is tough and no-one makes it easy." Since when does the "spiritual way" involve being led around by the nose and manipulated into each "lesson"?

There are other things I could point out, but I think this is plenty to show the ominous nature of these beings. Now, one could look at all this and ask how we can know if the beings were real, or if all the involvement they claimed to have with his past actually happened? We can't; they could've been lying about those things... But then the issue becomes a matter of Icke and what he believed. Even if the entities were lying about manipulating him since childhood, if ICKE believed it and still chose to trust them, that shows he has no clue how to discern the nature of hyperdimensional entities! Because such activities are clearly STS/evil in nature.

Now I really feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.... :O

 

[Laura]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I just found this in Biggest Secret, p. 34-35 (published in 1999)

I searched the Cass site and found a page about the murals (http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/denver.htm). In a Nov 1997 C's session cited on the page, the following exchange happened:

[quote author=Nov 1997 Session]
Q: (T) Is Alex Christopher's general idea of the meanings of these paintings correct?

A: Close. You should learn what you can, discreetly, about masonic principles.

So Alex Christopher, whom Icke mentions as his source, was well-acquainted with the murals before the SotT photos were taken. What I remembered from before was likely just about other people using SotT's copyrighted photos, and not about SotT first bringing the murals to public attention.

[/quote]

Yes. The Cs first brought up the issue of the Denver Airport thing in 1994. In 1995, John Grace AKA Val Valerian managed to persuade me to send him all our session transcripts up to that date (Dec of 1995 I believe it was). It's interesting to notice how many things that, up to then, had only been discussed with Cs, suddenly were being revealed and talked about on the net by others in usually twisted contexts. We published our catalog of photos in 1997 (and I have more that I have never scanned and published) and suddenly, they were being snagged (along with the Cs ideas) by everybody and his brother.

Back in 1996, hardly anybody even talked about Reptilians except in hushed tones... I sent some of the Cs comments about them to Col Steve Wilson back then and he wrote back that he had never read anything that was so accurate based on his inside knowledge. Well, Wilson died not too long after that and I've never been able to confirm anything about him.

ADDED: I should mention that I thought Wilson was probably a fraud, but it sure was interesting that he confirmed the stuff the Cs were saying that everybody else was rejecting.

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Trying to remember ... Did CM state that he himself had eaten the Chitauli meat?

Yes he did, but it was actually the meat of a "Grey alien." Here's what he said about this in an interview with Rick Martin (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_credo_mutwa03.htm):
[/quote]

Yes, that's correct, I'm busy watching this DVD again - quite a 'trip'!

Just something I quickly want to include here, which I completely forgot about until I watched the Credo Mutwa DVD again.

This kind of changes...everything, if Credo Mutwa becomes part of the picture (which he probably should, due to his big contribution to Icke's story). Shortly after reading Graham Hancock's Supernatural and this National Geographic article, I considered taking ayahuasca. I never did though, I put the idea on ice after noticing it was a little frowned upon here. One place I discovered though in the Cape, doing regular ayahuasca ceremonies, had a picture of Credo Mutwa in their gallery partaking in an ayahuasca session.

I completely forgot about this until Credo Mutwa put that humongous necklace around his neck in the DVD. Now just remember, in black African culture, 3D art (sculptures etc.) completely dominates 2D (canvas). But the elements on that necklace is very similar to the paintings of Pablo Amaringo. Suddenly, if psychotropic plants come into the picture, it explains a lot.

It explains the flying saucer on that necklace, and the Chitauri statue...for that matter, it explains all the imagery behind Mutwa against the wall that he painted. The necklace, and all the statues he exhibits, are standard ayahuasca journey imagery. And if that necklace and statues are as old as he says it is, and we know psychotropic plant consumption was always part of African culture, then it explains a lot coming out of Mutwa's mouth. Let's also consider Mutwa's mental health due to his consumption of psychotropic plants.

I'm surprised Icke himself didn't make this connection because of his own partaking in ayahuasca. He talks about the flying saucer, and all the other symbolic elements, but never link it to ayahuasca (or maybe Iboga). Even Credo Mutwa 'presents' it all as 'proof' of the Zulus' supposed extra-terrestrial past.

I've heard that Nelson or Winnie Mandela (can't remember which) is a huge fan of Icke... Do you know anything about this? I searched the Web and found nothing. But I know I read it someplace.

It doesn't bode well for Icke if either of them is a fan. Winnie tortured and murdered Stompie Seipei, and Nelson ordered the Church Street bomb. They also both ordered numerous necklacings of people they suspected of collaborating with the apartheid regime. I always chuckle a bit when I hear the international media speak of Nelson Mandela's 'peaceful resistance'.

I'll attend properly to the other contributions a bit later, I just wanted to bring the psychotropic plant thing into the mix, with regard to Mutwa...and Icke .

BTW. Was anyone else also a little bit freaked out by Mutwa's eyes in this DVD. The way he keeps them closed and every now and then he opens them a bit and one can only see the white of the eye.

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Alderpax, E, Laura. Awesome discussion, thanks.

[quote author=Alderpax] It sounds like you have pretty extensive knowledge of Icke's stuff[/quote]

I'd say medium. The person that I know who is a total devotee seems to have hung on every word, and can practically cite line and verse.

[quote author=Alderpax] Since you saw him in 1997 and again recently, did you notice any differences in his way of behavior?[/quote]

Hard to say. He definitely had more florid color and was larger, but nothing inconsistent with aging. Ask me how certain I am that he was the same person though, not a doppleganger or such, and I am just not observant enough to say. I wanted to re-introduce myself, but unlike the lone man who stood off to the side of the stage after his talk in Santa Cruz so many years ago, he was surrounded by what I understood to be aides or guards or something.

One note here is that as I stood there with him after the Santa Cruz lecture, this woman approached him frantic & emphatic about the Georgia Guidestones. Apparently this was a new topic to Icke, and he politely heard her out. She claimed the Rockefellers had funded the stones, and that the really kinky part was that the choice of Elberton, Georgia was made due to its proximity to red granite, the magic stone used in anti-gravity devices?! This was later a point of perplexity to me, as I reviewed once everything I could find about David Hamel (eg: _http://satellite.3x.ro/super_oferta.htm). In that saga, he claims to have been abducted by aliens and flown Eastward in Canada until they showed him where red granite could be had. He then discusses such in his book (trying to remember the exact title ... "The Iron Man and the Butterfly"?) Note that free energy pundits like John Bedini, Tom Bearden, etc. have embraced Hamel.

Likewise her other claim was also troubling, in that the she stated that the words on the Guidestones claimed why billions needed to die to create a sustainable world. I tried for years starting in 1997 to find those words on the web, and I never experienced so many broken links in my life. I gave up the search as late as 2001, but just recently I found a booklet in a used book store, and now I see the words are on-line.

The reason I mention it is because David Icke and I listened to her together, and I don't know whether he has ever made subsequent mention of the Guidestones in his work.

[quote author=Alderpax] but I do think he's barking up the wrong tree a bit[/quote]

He seems too smart to me to continue to punch down a theory that so easily dis-credits him, when he could just call it metaphor and be done in a much more powerful way with it. (You say he's backing off the reptilian thing since late 2008?) Now take the easy target that his reptilian theory is for people entirely new to these themes, add a little turquoise, and you have the wikipedia attack in a nutshell. The notion that he has been co-opted somehow though ... if I wanted to run his unwelcome intrusion into the ground, this kind of approach is definitely low-hanging fruit as ya'll have said.

[quote author=Alderpax] In fact, I'd pay to watch that.[/quote]

Teehee. The idea of unification! A Venn diagram of overlapping themes from the C's and Icke, adults agreeing in advance to be allowed to disagree, but in it as objective researchers inviting ideas from each other along the road of the earnest quest for truth! How would it be if he openly participated in our forum? He might be gentle and wise enough these days to keep a low profile and minimize noise and thread co-opting, etc. Maybe he is here? Would the path of lowest risk almost be to use an alias?

[quote author=Alderpax] Not sure what to think about that, really. Good song, though.[/quote]

Agreed. That song opened my mind again to a man that had turned me off with his mean-spirited? "Welfare Cadillac"

[quote author=Alderpax] How did you first find "The Wave," by the way?[/quote]

A dear friend turned me onto it.

[quote author=Alderpax] that fact actually had nothing to do with me discovering them[/quote]

Fair enough. In my case my friend had heard me talk about Icke and other matters, so when he found out about the C's etc. he felt it appropriate to give me his completed copies of "The Wave." I have since ordered and replaced them so that I did not in any way take a free ride.

[quote author=Alderpax] I'd love to read it.[/quote]

Thanks, I'll think about it. The original story is intact, as it is the pre-amble set in 1973, 800 years before the rest of the tale. An external consideration might be that like our comments about Icke above, if I am trying to convey something inside of a story, something that is inspired by all of you, then perhaps it is appropriate to suggest that your review is a healthy idea.

[quote author=Alderpax] Is there supposed to be a difference? [/quote]

Suspicion only. I want to know ... Do the later copies have all of that business in the back where Cathy chronicles her letter-writing campaign to named congressional folk trying to get her daughter freed? That's pretty choker material for many a publisher, my guess.

Very interesting E! That will take me a while to quaff.

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

[quote author=potamus]
Very interesting E! That will take me a while to quaff.
[/quote]

:) Actually my interest has taken a bit of a diversion now - but all related, bear with me. I'm starting with Credo Mutwa first - just bought his book Indaba - My Children. Credo himself is such a colourful and comprehensive topic that it would completely derail this entire thread. I will admit though that it's much more fun reading him and listening to him, than Icke... Maybe this slight diversion of mine will be more appropriate in the Black Magic, Shamanism, Supernatural, Graham Hancock thread.

I have mentioned this somewhere else, but I find it a little amusing that Icke says in the DVD "some deeply ignorant people call them witchdoctors" when Credo refers to himself as a witchdoctor in his book!

'You cannot fight an evil disease with sweet medicine', is the saying popular amongst us witchdoctors.

On returning from Rhodesia that year I visited my mother and grandfather in Zululand after more than 30 years and, at their command, I renounced Christianity and underwent the 'Ceremony of Purification' in order to begin training as a witchdoctor and also in preparation for assuming the post of Custodian of our sacred Tribal Relics, in the event of my grandfather's death.

I'm thinking that a lot of Credo's stories might originate form the use of psychotropic plants, of which South Africa has plenty. I got this other book also, which they discussed on the radio recently, Muthi and Myths from the African Bush, where Ben-Erik van Wyk, one of our most well known botanists, scientifically separates fact from fiction where muthi is concerned.

Credo, naturally, features a lot in the book. (Oh and on a side-note, I must say that the story about eating the gray alien sounds a lot like they actually ate a mind-altering poisonous plant, with almost dying like that, combined with the extra-sensory perception.)

Aphrodisiac of Hope

Botanical name: Nymphaea caerulea
Common name: Blue water lily

"Out of the darkest mud grows the most beautiful flower." This, explains Credo Mutwa (one of Africa's renowned traditional healers), is how African people describe the blue water lily and why they revere it as a symbol of hope.

Gracing our planet with its 'heavenly blue' (the Latin meaning of 'caerulea'), the blue water lily not only emerges from the darkness of our ancient history as one of the earth's most primitive plants. Dating back over 100 million years, it is one of the earliest known seed-bearers.

Offering insights into the worlds beyond our world, the plant was held sacred by the ancient Egyptians. Wreaths of this ephemeral flower adorned the mummies of several Egyptian rulers, notably King Ramses II (who reigned for 67 years in the 12th century BC). The blue water lily is in fact the original Egyptian lotus, which was characteristically associated with the spirit world. It is well documented that the flower was used as a narcotic in ancient Egypt, and this has continued through many different traditional African cultures all the way through to modern times.

"A decoction of the flower is said to be a stimulant, euphoriant and an aphrodisiac in low doses, but an anti-aphrodisiac or tranquiliser in higher doses," explains Ben-Erik, who is adamant he has not tried it. "I made a decision not to experiment on myself with any of the plants that have narcotic qualities because there's no end to this. You can send the mind in so many directions you won't know who you are in the end, so I think I'll just stick to good wine."

Be warned, you have to be very precise about the dose you take when it comes to plant narcotics because you can easily get it wrong and land up poisoning yourself. Skilled traditional healers are extremely precise about doses and may themselves partake of the blue water lily during divination to foresee the future or to enable them to see 'the bigger picture' when making a diagnosis.

Beyond its compelling narcotic qualities, the plant is more widely used as food and as medicine for a range of physical ails. The rhizomes or tubers are sold in street markets and are eaten like potatoes. In certain regions - like Okavango Delta - they are part of the staple diet and are eaten together with the flower heads and seeds.

Medicinally, the rhizome is used as a remedy for diabetes, while an infusion of the root and stem is used to treat urinary tract infections. The powdered root is sprinkled on porridge to treat asthma. Throughout Africa there are as many variations of its medicinal application as there are water lilies.

While Nymphaea caerulea is specific to Africa, many different species of the water lily occur in tropical waters throughout the world. Perhaps this is why its genus is Nymphaea (Latin for 'nymph'), as there were many different nymphs in the mythological world. Nymphs were semi-divine maidens who inhabited mountains, water and trees and were responsible for the care of nature. Nymphs were always beautiful and desired by all who saw them; hence the more modern interpretation of the term as 'a sexually attractive girl'.

Which all goes to show it's little wonder the blue water lily is attributed with an aphrodisiac effect.

Interesting the reoccurrence of fairies or nymphs and all the other things with psychotropic plants.

Now, you know Alladin and Sinbad and their magic carpet rides? Have a look at this!

Magic Carpet Ride

Botanical name: Peganum harmala
Common names: African rue, wild rue, harmal (Arabic), harmel, rue sauvage (French)

Did you know it is possible to fly on a carpet?

It is. That is why it is called a magic carpet. But as is the case with many magical experiences, the source of the magic is not the object that appears to be conjuring it.

In the case of the magic carpet, it is not the carpet that facilitates flying but rather a small desert shrub named Peganum harmala. This shrub, better known as African rue or harmal, grows in the desert regions of North East Africa and Arabia.

Before we go further, be warned, you should not be tempted to experiment with it yourself because the plant can be highly toxic and should only be administered by vastly experienced healers.

Certain Arabic texts contain accounts of those who have experienced flying on a carpet. They all tell the same tale: how they placed their carpet next to the fire and threw a handful of African rue seeds into the flames. Within a very short time they were flying over the desert on their magic carpet, imbibing eternity and exploring the dunes where caravans of camels, donkeys and desert clans have paved a path through the sands over thousands of years.

Their descriptions are so vivid, it is hard to believe they weren't actually flying; that it was smoke from the burning harmal seeds releasing psychoactive vapours that stimulated the sensation of flying in their minds.

Harmal is the magic carpet and the concept of being able to fly is long since attributed to this ancient plant's hallucinogenic effects (as are the intricate patterns in oriental carpet designs). Harmal is one of the continents many mind and mood plants.

Its hallucinogenic, intoxicant and sexually stimulating properties are well known to traditional healers. Its main alkaloid is harmine or telepathine; this same alkaloid is found in several South American mind plants, used in religious rites: caapi in Brazil, ayahuasca in Peru and yage in Colombia.

Harmal and all these other plants are traditionally used under very strict supervision to gain insight into the true reality of life: something that human beings have been seeking since the birth of consciousness.

Telepathine - the name of the alkaloid - is derived from the Greek word 'telepathic' ('tele' meaning 'distance' and 'patheia' meaning 'feeling'). Telepathy is the ability to convey or receive thoughts and feelings over any distance, without using any of the five known senses. It's what we call parapsychology and extrasensory perception.

Recent parapsychology research has produced favourable results that extrasensory perception and telepathy is possible. Traditional healers have always known this and used medicines like harmal to open the spiritual doors of perception. They believe there is no greater healing than understanding the extrasensory self and our place in the universe.

On a more physical plane, harmal seeds are used as an anti-spasmodic and painkiller, effective in the treatment of eye diseases, nervous disorders and impotence.

Traditional healers would argue there is no distinction between the physical, spiritual and psychological planes; that when there is imbalance in any one of these, the human being will manifest some form of malady in all three. Therefore the treatment must penetrate all three aspects of being to clear blockages and restore vital force.

Blindness to the true riches of the human spirit is the most common affliction in the world today. Authentic traditional healers (not those riding the overcrowded bandwagon) are priceless repositories of the knowledge of our universe.

They shake their heads at the pandemic of financial greed that has possessed the world and proclaim that the time is long overdue for the human race to collectively inhale the smoke of true perception. For it is only when we all ride the magic carpet that we will get a bird's eye view of Earth and appreciate how lucky we are to be living on this pretty planet in the vast, cosmic universe.

Now apart from the very interesting connection to the magic carpet, the telepathy also explains something Credo talks about. Credo talks in this interview about the 'bush telegraph', which he claims was a telepathic ability that the Zulus possessed which they lost. Now, us white people also talk about the bush telegraph, but it's kind of a joking way to refer to how quickly news (especially juicy news) tends to spread in the bush. We know that telepathy is common when 'journeying' on psychotropic plants, cause Graham Hancock, Daniel Pinchbeck and others talk about it often.

This book is quite an eye opener, it says the Zulus use African wormwood as well, which they call umhlonyane, which is of course what Vincent van Gogh is well known for. He drank 'green muse' regularly, which is what absinthe is called. Flavoured with wormwood, it is extremely powerful and highly addictive, hallucinogenic and sometimes fatal. Now we can't know for sure how big a role the absinthe played in his insanity, chopping off his ear, or even suicide, but it's certainly a strong possibility.

Due to Hancock, we know that flying saucers and reptile men are natural occurrences when tripping on ayahuasca, and we know Credo takes ayahuasca. So as I mentioned earlier, it accounts for the flying saucer on his necklace, the reptile man in his painting behind him, but then there's one more thing. There's also a white flower in that painting, and white flowers in particular, are known for their narcotic qualities. If I can't identify that flower, I'll go see Ben-Erik van Wyk to do it for me, but I will put money on it that it's a psychotropic plant.

So basically, the point I'm trying to make, is that Credo blurs the lines a little between reality and 'the other reality' that he visits so often. For him it is one and the same thing, black Africans work like that. The spiritual world is inseparable from the materialistic world. As he states in his book:

Many will find it hard to believe much of what I have revealed in this book, but I am not in the least concerned, because whether I am believed or not, everything I write here is true.

The question is, why did Icke use Credo's testimony to support his ‘physical’ shape-shifting reptilian 'theory', especially since he himself is familiar with ayahuasca? ...and this does not appear to me like ignorance...

[quote author=Alderpax]

Also notice how Icke corrects the questioner when he says ‘reptilians’, saying “well I call them inter-dimensionals”. Well it looks like he’s not going to let the ‘genetic reptilian bloodline’ go. One briefly gets the impression that he has a new understanding, but then he goes off on the ‘genetic shape-shifting bloodline’ again.

I wondered about that line... Except for that interview, I've never seen or heard Icke call them "inter-dimensionals. [/quote]

He calls them inter-dimensionals in his latest consciousmedianetwork.com interview as well, so it looks like he’s got a new line now…mmmm...

...still gotta work through all your contributions...sorrryyyyy...

EDIT: It's also starting to make a little more sense to me that they've all seen the Tikoloshe 'with their own eyes'...

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

So Alex Christopher, whom Icke mentions as his source, was well-acquainted with the murals before the SotT photos were taken. What I remembered from before was likely just about other people using SotT's copyrighted photos, and not about SotT first bringing the murals to public attention.

Yes. The Cs first brought up the issue of the Denver Airport thing in 1994. In 1995, John Grace AKA Val Valerian managed to persuade me to send him all our session transcripts up to that date (Dec of 1995 I believe it was). It's interesting to notice how many things that, up to then, had only been discussed with Cs, suddenly were being revealed and talked about on the net by others in usually twisted contexts. We published our catalog of photos in 1997 (and I have more that I have never scanned and published) and suddenly, they were being snagged (along with the Cs ideas) by everybody and his brother.

That is interesting! Phil Schneider came forward about the Denver Airport (among other things) in early to mid-1995, so this seems to be what the C's were predicting in 1994. Schneider's testimony is also what much of Alex Christopher's material is based on. Schneider seems to have been "suicided" in January of 1996, and all physical evidence he possessed was taken. I plan to read whatever I can find about Schneider, because what little I've read sounds intriguing. That said, for an insider to go public and then die mysteriously the next year... It seems almost staged. Also, he claimed to have killed two Gray aliens in a firefight under Dulce, NM, which sounds a bit suspicious to me. Is it even possible for a Gray to be shot and killed? If these underground bases exist in 4D, as the C's mention, then maybe... But I dunno. This stuff can sure be a convoluted mess to wade through.

[quote author=Alderpax] Since you saw him in 1997 and again recently, did you notice any differences in his way of behavior?

Hard to say. He definitely had more florid color and was larger, but nothing inconsistent with aging. Ask me how certain I am that he was the same person though, not a doppleganger or such, and I am just not observant enough to say.

[/quote]

Well, I don't think the current David Icke would be a "double" of some kind - as in a literal different person. Although I guess such a thing is possible. I was just meaning "different" mentally, like something about him has changed.

[quote author=potamus]

I wanted to re-introduce myself, but unlike the lone man who stood off to the side of the stage after his talk in Santa Cruz so many years ago, he was surrounded by what I understood to be aides or guards or something.

One note here is that as I stood there with him after the Santa Cruz lecture, this woman approached him frantic & emphatic about the Georgia Guidestones. Apparently this was a new topic to Icke, and he politely heard her out. She claimed the Rockefellers had funded the stones, and that the really kinky part was that the choice of Elberton, Georgia was made due to its proximity to red granite, the magic stone used in anti-gravity devices?! This was later a point of perplexity to me, as I reviewed once everything I could find about David Hamel (eg: _http://satellite.3x.ro/super_oferta.htm). In that saga, he claims to have been abducted by aliens and flown Eastward in Canada until they showed him where red granite could be had. He then discusses such in his book (trying to remember the exact title ... "The Iron Man and the Butterfly"?) Note that free energy pundits like John Bedini, Tom Bearden, etc. have embraced Hamel.

Likewise her other claim was also troubling, in that the she stated that the words on the Guidestones claimed why billions needed to die to create a sustainable world. I tried for years starting in 1997 to find those words on the web, and I never experienced so many broken links in my life. I gave up the search as late as 2001, but just recently I found a booklet in a used book store, and now I see the words are on-line.

The reason I mention it is because David Icke and I listened to her together, and I don't know whether he has ever made subsequent mention of the Guidestones in his work.

[/quote]

There are two articles about the Guidestones listed on Icke's website, from 2008 and 2009, but just links - the actual articles are off-site. There are also several posts about them in the David Icke forum. But nothing by Icke himself. He may have mentioned them in his books, though, which we'll find out as we go through them.

[quote author=potamus]

[quote author=Alderpax] but I do think he's barking up the wrong tree a bit[/quote]

He seems too smart to me to continue to punch down a theory that so easily dis-credits him, when he could just call it metaphor and be done in a much more powerful way with it. (You say he's backing off the reptilian thing since late 2008?) Now take the easy target that his reptilian theory is for people entirely new to these themes, add a little turquoise, and you have the wikipedia attack in a nutshell. The notion that he has been co-opted somehow though ... if I wanted to run his unwelcome intrusion into the ground, this kind of approach is definitely low-hanging fruit as ya'll have said.

[/quote]

The thing is, if Icke decided to call it a metaphor he'd be admitting he was dead wrong - about one of the key concepts in his work. On the other hand, if he starts saying he knew it was metaphor all along, he'd look like he'd been lying all this time by "pretending" it was literal fact. So he might try and discredit any opponents to his bloodline idea. Or he could just ignore opposing theories altogether. Christian "apologists" have used both of these tactics for centuries with great success. Logic and truth don't usually penetrate the "shell" of devoted belief. Icke could be easily discredited for us, but not for those who hang on his every word.

Icke isn't totally backing off the reptilian stuff, but he does seem to be downplaying it a bit. Like when he told Bill Maher that he calls them "inter-dimensionals" instead of reptilians. He's also said that he plans to stop focusing so much on the problems, and focus more on the positive solution. But I've been getting his "newsletter updates" in my email for the past 6 years. And they're still about the same things they always were - RFID chips, vaccinations, the global warming scam, etc. His "we're all One" message is usually tossed in somewhere, but it always has been. So I don't see this change in focus he talked about. Maybe it's still coming.

You're right that the reptilian thing is the easiest target, so maybe this is why he's switched to calling them "inter-dimensionals." But the damage has been done, I think. I tossed out my beliefs in "shape-shifting reptilians" years ago, but my friends still tease me for thinking "lizard people control the world." And Icke's in a worse position than I was, since his theories are so publicly known - and ridiculed. He'll have a hard time escaping that no matter what changes he makes. So yes, "reptilians" were an easy way to co-opt him... assuming that he wasn't set up from the beginning. Also remember why "reptilians" were chosen specifically, rather than some other idea - because there's a Truth behind it which they wanted to discredit ("they" being whoever's behind Icke). My friends are a good example of how this works. I've explained to them how my current ideas differ from before... But they don't see the difference. "Lizard people control the world" still sums it up for them. And this happened because Icke's ideas make a deep impression on the psyche of everyone who hears them - whether they're believers or they think he's insane. The image of known figures like George Bush and the Queen being lizard-like aliens in disguise.... it's very powerful.

[quote author=potamus]

[quote author=Alderpax] In fact, I'd pay to watch that.[/quote]

Teehee. The idea of unification! A Venn diagram of overlapping themes from the C's and Icke, adults agreeing in advance to be allowed to disagree, but in it as objective researchers inviting ideas from each other along the road of the earnest quest for truth!

[/quote]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of Ark and Laura tearing his "logic" to shreds. :D But this could still be done in the way you describe. If Icke really is on an "earnest quest for truth," he'd be glad to have his mistakes corrected.

[quote author=potamus]

How would it be if he openly participated in our forum? He might be gentle and wise enough these days to keep a low profile and minimize noise and thread co-opting, etc.

[/quote]

I don't know how it would be, honestly. It depends on who Icke really is and what his true goals are.

[quote author=potamus]

Maybe he is here? Would the path of lowest risk almost be to use an alias?

[/quote]

Wait - are you hinting at something? Are YOU him?? But seriously, I don't know if he's posted here or not. Has anybody seen posts that sound like David Icke? Or would he write in a different style? Something like this would be near impossible to determine. But I guess it could happen.

[quote author=potamus]

[quote author=Alderpax] I'd love to read it.[/quote]

Thanks, I'll think about it. The original story is intact, as it is the pre-amble set in 1973, 800 years before the rest of the tale. An external consideration might be that like our comments about Icke above, if I am trying to convey something inside of a story, something that is inspired by all of you, then perhaps it is appropriate to suggest that your review is a healthy idea.

[/quote]

That's a good point, but it's your story so it's your choice. If you don't feel like sharing it, nobody's going to think less of you or get upset. I agree that getting some input from the forum might be helpful, depending on what you're wanting to convey. But that's something for you to decide.

[quote author=potamus]

[quote author=Alderpax] Is there supposed to be a difference? [/quote]

Suspicion only. I want to know ... Do the later copies have all of that business in the back where Cathy chronicles her letter-writing campaign to named congressional folk trying to get her daughter freed? That's pretty choker material for many a publisher, my guess.

[/quote]

Well, in mine there's a section called "Victim of the System Timeline," where Cathy lists year-by-year her attempts to free her daughter. This goes through 1998, so if it is the same thing then it's been updated.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Just something I quickly want to include here, which I completely forgot about until I watched the Credo Mutwa DVD again.

This kind of changes...everything, if Credo Mutwa becomes part of the picture (which he probably should, due to his big contribution to Icke's story). Shortly after reading Graham Hancock's Supernatural and this National Geographic article, I considered taking ayahuasca. I never did though, I put the idea on ice after noticing it was a little frowned upon here.

I went through the same type of thing - I used to be into the idea of "shamanic initiation" via drugs like ayahuasca. I had even planned to sign up for a trip to South America, through a group which organizes them for this purpose. My big influence was Narby's DNA: The Cosmic Serpent and some things I'd read online. But after starting the Wave series I understood how wrong-headed this stuff is.

[quote author=E]

One place I discovered though in the Cape, doing regular ayahuasca ceremonies, had a picture of Credo Mutwa in their gallery partaking in an ayahuasca session.

I completely forgot about this until Credo Mutwa put that humongous necklace around his neck in the DVD. Now just remember, in black African culture, 3D art (sculptures etc.) completely dominates 2D (canvas). But the elements on that necklace is very similar to the paintings of Pablo Amaringo. Suddenly, if psychotropic plants come into the picture, it explains a lot.

It explains the flying saucer on that necklace, and the Chitauri statue...for that matter, it explains all the imagery behind Mutwa against the wall that he painted. The necklace, and all the statues he exhibits, are standard ayahuasca journey imagery. And if that necklace and statues are as old as he says it is, and we know psychotropic plant consumption was always part of African culture, then it explains a lot coming out of Mutwa's mouth. Let's also consider Mutwa's mental health due to his consumption of psychotropic plants.

[/quote]

All very good points. I agree that this is a relevant "tangent" to the Icke issue. Aside from Arizona Wilder (and maybe Cathy O'Brien), Icke considers Mutwa's testimony to be some of his strongest evidence.

[quote author=E]

I'm surprised Icke himself didn't make this connection because of his own partaking in ayahuasca. He talks about the flying saucer, and all the other symbolic elements, but never link it to ayahuasca (or maybe Iboga). Even Credo Mutwa 'presents' it all as 'proof' of the Zulus' supposed extra-terrestrial past.

[/quote]

Yes, this is another of those things that's so obvious it should've been seriously considered by a dedicated researcher, as Icke claims to be.

[quote author=E]

I've heard that Nelson or Winnie Mandela (can't remember which) is a huge fan of Icke...

It doesn't bode well for Icke if either of them is a fan. Winnie tortured and murdered Stompie Seipei, and Nelson ordered the Church Street bomb. They also both ordered numerous necklacings of people they suspected of collaborating with the apartheid regime. I always chuckle a bit when I hear the international media speak of Nelson Mandela's 'peaceful resistance'.

[/quote]

Mandela's quite a "hero" in the public eye, worldwide. I didn't know about any of the things you just said; I had a more-or-less positive view of him. It just goes to show how effective PR propaganda can be...

[quote author=E]

BTW. Was anyone else also a little bit freaked out by Mutwa's eyes in this DVD. The way he keeps them closed and every now and then he opens them a bit and one can only see the white of the eye.

[/quote]

Hm... Could he be in some sort of trance state? "Under the influence" maybe?

[quote author=E]
I'm starting with Credo Mutwa first - just bought his book Indaba - My Children. Credo himself is such a colourful and comprehensive topic that it would completely derail this entire thread. I will admit though that it's much more fun reading him and listening to him, than Icke... Maybe this slight diversion of mine will be more appropriate in the Black Magic, Shamanism, Supernatural, Graham Hancock thread.

[/quote]

It may be appropriate there, but I think it belongs here, too. For at least two reasons - The reliability of Mutwa as a major info source, and the reliability of Icke for (seemingly) trusting Mutwa without deeper investigation.

[quote author=E]

I have mentioned this somewhere else, but I find it a little amusing that Icke says in the DVD "some deeply ignorant people call them witchdoctors" when Credo refers to himself as a witchdoctor in his book!

[/quote]

Indeed, that is amusing. One more "sloppy research point" for Icke!

[quote author=E]

I'm thinking that a lot of Credo's stories might originate form the use of psychotropic plants, of which South Africa has plenty. I got this other book also, which they discussed on the radio recently, Muthi and Myths from the African Bush, where Ben-Erik van Wyk, one of our most well known botanists, scientifically separates fact from fiction where muthi is concerned.

[/quote]

These sound like very interesting books. I may have to put them on my "to buy" list.

[quote author=E]

(Oh and on a side-note, I must say that the story about eating the gray alien sounds a lot like they actually ate a mind-altering poisonous plant, with almost dying like that, combined with the extra-sensory perception.)

[/quote]

I thought about this, too. Mutwa only believes it was the flesh of a Gray because that's what he was told. My only questions regarding this are: Since Mutwa is so well-acquainted with psychotropic drugs, why would this "flesh" give him an experience that felt so strange and different to him? And how could the effects have lasted for several months? Could these things be due to an unusually high dose of whatever he consumed?

[quote author=E]

Aphrodisiac of Hope

Botanical name: Nymphaea caerulea
Common name: Blue water lily

[/quote]

Thank you for posting all of this info! These excerpts show a lot of intriguing possible links to Mutwa's stories.

[quote author=E]

Now apart from the very interesting connection to the magic carpet, the telepathy also explains something Credo talks about. Credo talks in this interview about the 'bush telegraph', which he claims was a telepathic ability that the Zulus possessed which they lost. Now, us white people also talk about the bush telegraph, but it's kind of a joking way to refer to how quickly news (especially juicy news) tends to spread in the bush. We know that telepathy is common when 'journeying' on psychotropic plants, cause Graham Hancock, Daniel Pinchbeck and others talk about it often.

[/quote]

Hm... Very possible, but I also wonder if there was a time when this could be done naturally. Maybe the drugs were introduced later as understanding was lost.

[quote author=E]

This book is quite an eye opener, it says the Zulus use African wormwood as well, which they call umhlonyane, which is of course what Vincent van Gogh is well known for. He drank 'green muse' regularly, which is what absinthe is called. Flavoured with wormwood, it is extremely powerful and highly addictive, hallucinogenic and sometimes fatal. Now we can't know for sure how big a role the absinthe played in his insanity, chopping off his ear, or even suicide, but it's certainly a strong possibility.

[/quote]

Indeed.

[quote author=E]

Due to Hancock, we know that flying saucers and reptile men are natural occurrences when tripping on ayahuasca, and we know Credo takes ayahuasca. So as I mentioned earlier, it accounts for the flying saucer on his necklace, the reptile man in his painting behind him, but then there's one more thing. There's also a white flower in that painting, and white flowers in particular, are known for their narcotic qualities. If I can't identify that flower, I'll go see Ben-Erik van Wyk to do it for me, but I will put money on it that it's a psychotropic plant.

[/quote]

If Icke were aware of all this, I can almost imagine him making a case that such "visions" are still admissible evidence. He may ask, why the common themes unless there's fact behind it? And why flying saucers and reptile men specifically when these just "happen" to be the "truth" as Icke understands it? "Just a coincidence, nothing to worry about!" is a sarcastic phrase he loves to say to people who question this stuff. But Icke would be missing a crucial point - people experiencing drug-induced visions have no control over what influences the content. They may not just be random images or perceptons - deliberate lies could come through from somewhere. Another possibility is that some of these visions may be "truths," but not in a literal 3D-reality sense. That's one of the big problems with psychotropics - if the mind isn't ready for hyperdimensional experiences, it won't be able to process them properly. Also, if the mind IS ready, no drugs will be required. The use of drugs for such things seems to be a crutch for those who can't do it themselves... A corruption of what shamanism once was.

[quote author=E]

So basically, the point I'm trying to make, is that Credo blurs the lines a little between reality and 'the other reality' that he visits so often. For him it is one and the same thing, black Africans work like that. The spiritual world is inseparable from the materialistic world. As he states in his book:

Many will find it hard to believe much of what I have revealed in this book, but I am not in the least concerned, because whether I am believed or not, everything I write here is true.

The question is, why did Icke use Credo's testimony to support his ‘physical’ shape-shifting reptilian 'theory', especially since he himself is familiar with ayahuasca? ...and this does not appear to me like ignorance...

[/quote]

It doesn't seem that way to me, either. It would take an enormous amount of ignorance for Icke to completely miss this aspect of Mutwa. Look how much info you've dug up already. Icke could've easily done the same, if he's so dedicated to finding the truth.

He calls them inter-dimensionals in his latest consciousmedianetwork.com interview as well, so it looks like he’s got a new line now…mmmm...

Apparently so. I'm interested to see where he takes this.

...still gotta work through all your contributions...sorrryyyyy...

No worries. :) This Mutwa stuff is really good.

EDIT: It's also starting to make a little more sense to me that they've all seen the Tikoloshe 'with their own eyes'...

Indeed, a lot of things are making more sense now. So we have info casting serious doubt on BOTH of Icke's major info sources. His other big evidence, according to him, is the wealth of "eye-witness" testimonies to shape-shifting. Most of these are not named, but I'm sure we can at least examine the testimonies themselves, and see if they really support him as much as he thinks.

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

These sound like very interesting books.

I was totally immersed in this muti book last night.. You can’t say we live in a boring world! These things are titillating, as Laura rightfully states in the Knowledge and Being video, not to mention Indaba – My Children! Holy moly!...♪ twilight zone theme ♪… This whole psychotropic plant business made me understand so many things all of a sudden. It’s like their art, which have always fascinated me…and disturbed me. I’m like a child let loose in a candy factory when I’m in an African art market, thinking at the same time “are all these people possessed?” Now I know what the inspiration is – that ‘other place’.

I've heard that Nelson or Winnie Mandela (can't remember which) is a huge fan of Icke...

It doesn't bode well for Icke if either of them is a fan. Winnie tortured and murdered Stompie Seipei, and Nelson ordered the Church Street bomb. They also both ordered numerous necklacings of people they suspected of collaborating with the apartheid regime. I always chuckle a bit when I hear the international media speak of Nelson Mandela's 'peaceful resistance'.

Look, I just need to set this straight. It might have come across as if I absolutely despise Madiba, which I don’t. I am actually quite fond of him. The lines between right and wrong were very blurred in those days – aren’t they always, actually. I don’t view the world in black and white like that. There’s right, there’s wrong, and then there’s the specific circumstance which determines which is which. Winnie, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish, she has no conscience.

I even understand why Madiba was given this ‘saint’ status, it was absolutely necessary. These were all clauses built into the handover, civil war had to be avoided at all cost, and one of them was for their beloved Madiba to walk out of his prison cell and say “this is not payback time”.

One thing that surprised me a little yesterday in the bookstore while I was gathering info on Credo, was that most of the white apartheid leaders consulted with witchdoctors as well. Funny how all these uncomfortable little unfortunalities are crawling out of the woodwork now. The most notable one they consulted was called Khotso, and this guy makes Credo appear like a little lamb in comparison. Kind of makes one think about the 4D influence on politics…

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I was totally immersed in this muti book last night.. You can’t say we live in a boring world! These things are titillating, as Laura rightfully states in the Knowledge and Being video, not to mention Indaba – My Children! Holy moly!...♪ twilight zone theme ♪… This whole psychotropic plant business made me understand so many things all of a sudden. It’s like their art, which have always fascinated me…and disturbed me. I’m like a child let loose in a candy factory when I’m in an African art market, thinking at the same time “are all these people possessed?” Now I know what the inspiration is – that ‘other place’.

Having one's eyes opened to a new way of seeing something... It can be an exhilarating feeling. :)

Look, I just need to set this straight. It might have come across as if I absolutely despise Madiba, which I don’t. I am actually quite fond of him. The lines between right and wrong were very blurred in those days – aren’t they always, actually. I don’t view the world in black and white like that. There’s right, there’s wrong, and then there’s the specific circumstance which determines which is which. Winnie, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish, she has no conscience.

Noted. I don't view the world in stark black and white either. As for circumstances determining whether an act is right or wrong, I think that's true too, but I'm not sure "the lines being blurred" back then qualifies. That could almost be used as an excuse or justification, like "I was just following orders" or "everyone else was doing it." Having a reason for doing something isn't the same as circumstances making it right to do something. Still, Nelson Mandela is probably a very good man who did some bad things in his past. Which is understandable, especially with someone like Winnie around - who I'm sure isn't above a little manipulation. And we all make poor choices. Some make worse choices than others, but that doesn't always mean they're horrible people.

[quote author=E]

One thing that surprised me a little yesterday in the bookstore while I was gathering info on Credo, was that most of the white apartheid leaders consulted with witchdoctors as well. Funny how all these uncomfortable little unfortunalities are crawling out of the woodwork now. The most notable one they consulted was called Khotso, and this guy makes Credo appear like a little lamb in comparison. Kind of makes one think about the 4D influence on politics…
[/quote]

Indeed it does... Kind of like when it came out that Ronald Reagan regularly consulted a fortuneteller. You just never know. This also makes me think about all the occultic rituals the elite are supposedly involved in, along with all the symbolism, Illuminati stuff, etc. It doesn't mean they're blood-drinking reptiles as Icke claims, or servants of the Devil as Christian truthers say... But it could still be going on. And they really could be linking up with 4D STS that way, unbeknownst to them.

Btw, I ordered the David Icke autobiography from Amazon a couple days ago; it should arrive around New Years or so. I shelled out $36.00 for it, because the book was apparently never reprinted after its initial release. But I think it'll be worth the cost.

Also, just a couple of random thoughts...

I recall reading an article that many elite actually consider themselves to be descended from reptilian beings (maybe dragons or something). If so, maybe Icke read certain things about this and took it to mean they really ARE reptilian hybrids, when in actuality they just believe they are. I'll look into this further later when I get up. :)

After reading a reference in another thread to the site "Godlike Productions," and how they slander Laura and this forum, I decided to go check out exactly what they say. It was.... enlightening, to say the least. Here's the 173-page mega-thread they have going, if you just want to see the level of discussion over there: _http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message115499/pg1

I did learn something from that thread though... Many of the accusations and claims they make against Laura sound eerily like some of the stuff we've been saying here about Icke. It just made me think that we should be careful and really, really try to stay objective and fair. I know we already realize this, but observing them spreading utter crap, using the same level of "evidence" that we've sometimes used to say Icke is such-and-such... Well, it sort of brought it home to me. Stuff like that is a great case study on how NOT to conduct an investigation of someone.

And one final thing. From that GLP thread came the name Lincoln Lawrence. Here's the relevant quote: "Lincoln Lawerence is currently writing a book about the Cassiopaeans and he claims that they are some kind of intelligence operation, that Laura Knight jadczyk is implanted. I read a short excerpt from the forthcoming book and he speculates that she and her husband are a vacuum cleaner operation. That is they suck up dissidents names and send them off to some intelligence agency." This was in 2005 (when the anti-Laura thread first started). Although the poster claims to have read "a short excerpt from the forthcoming book," I searched (four years later) and didn't find such a book anywhere. So I dunno. I do know he's a real published author, though - he wrote a book about the Kennedy assassination that's currently on Amazon.

Still, read this quote from Lawrence: "Channelling, aliens, and the New Age are all attempts by the Controllers to destroy old religions and to create new religions so that the people will be absolutely under their command. The Cassiopaeans are part of this master plan..."

He talks about "creating new religions" and then says the C's are part of the "master plan?" Although this is from 2005, it sounds like Lawrence could wind up being a huge opponent of FOTCM. His views back then would certainly make him a prime tool to be used for this. Heck, maybe Icke would even use Lawrence's anti-Cass stuff at some point as "evidence." He may be someone to watch out for.

 

[Laura]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Who is "Lincoln Lawrence"?

 

[rs]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

The reference is most probably to the author of the following book:

Mind Control, Oswald & JFK: Were We Controlled?

You can find lots of links with google, Big Brother edition.

Did Lee Harvey Oswald receive a mind control implant at a Russian hospital in 1960? Thomas examines documented evidence -- from the little known 1969 book of the same name -- that the notorious Kennedy assassins may have been an early recipient of implant technology. This startling new information challenges all public assumptions -- including previous conspiracy theories -- about his role in the conspiracy to kill John F Kennedy. Thomas further explores the use of mind control in the JFK assassination and details the history of implant experiments.

from _http://www.ftrbooks.net/conspiracy/jfk/were_we_controlled.htm we see:

Steamshovel Press editor Kenn Thomas examines the 1969 book Were We Controlled. The author of the book was supposedly an ex-FBI agent using the name Lincoln Lawrence.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm".

The book maintained that Lee Harvey Oswald was a special agent who was a mind control subject having received an implant in a Russian hospital in 1960. Thomas looks at the mind control aspects of the JFK assassination and details the history of implant technology. The implications of this advanced mind control technology in assassinations and general control of a population are enormous. A growing number of people are interested in these CIA experiments and its purposes. Freedom of the mind is no longer to be taken for granted; the space between your ears is the next battleground; be prepared.

Other books by Thomas include NASA, Nazis & JFK, The Octopus, and Popular Alienation.

There is a bunch of other stuff to sniff around in, but this will give a start.

Edit:

You can essentially read the whole book at the following:

_http://books.google.com/books?id=ljAN_J_IG14C&dq=lincoln+laurence+mind+control+oswald&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=-5J_AtiUTx&sig=EdVrj2QwbPqh592KpNoJJ1Ol-3A&hl=en&ei=BxotS4LPAoeQsgOt3u25BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Okay I found the first mention of shape-shifting in Credo's book, and this book was first published in South Africa in 1964. It was again published in Great Britain in 1998.

Those were terrible days - those days when the Dawn of Time was still red in the horizon of Eternity. Those were the days when Outcast Gods, Dimo Giants, Viper Maidens, Life Eaters and Fire Leopards and many other monsters, vicious and horrible beyond description, still roamed a frightened earth.

But let us not delude ourselves into thinking that these horrible creatures no longer exist; they do. They take human shapes and cause evil in the lands of men. They disguise themselves as human beings and cause mighty wars in the lands of the tribes before vanishing once more into the 'Land-that-is-and-is-not'. They leave thousands of foolish human beings to kill each other. They can take over the bodies of people whom we know and commit vile crimes as them. These Evil Ones are with us yet.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Who is "Lincoln Lawrence"?

The reference is most probably to the author of the following book:

Mind Control, Oswald & JFK: Were We Controlled?

I also found this reference on SotT (originally from the Tenn Times):

from _http://www.ftrbooks.net/conspiracy/jfk/were_we_controlled.htm we see:

Steamshovel Press editor Kenn Thomas examines the 1969 book Were We Controlled. The author of the book was supposedly an ex-FBI agent using the name Lincoln Lawrence.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm".

So we have "Lincoln Lawrence" as the pen name of "a major network anchor" and/or "an ex-FBI agent." Who is he, indeed?

I still couldn't find any reference whatsoever to a book by Lawrence about the Cassiopaeans - or anything he may have said about them, aside from in that thread, in the posts of a single user named "Chandra"... And since the only book he's written was the JFK book in 1969, I'm guessing this was just a pile of BS. "Chandra's" posts had some suspicious qualities; even a couple of the other GLP posters accused her of being Vincent Bridges using an alias. Their rationale was that she kept accusing Laura of plagiarizing VB, and she claimed that her roommate/partner went to the QFG school, had a bad experience, and was threatened with repercussions if she said anything about it to anyone. She also claimed to be a psychologist, yet her "psychological" arguments were fairly pathetic. Finally, her "partner" posted under the same user ID and could've been the same person. "Chandra" just came off like a liar with a personal vendetta. So the accusation that she was VB may not have been far off.

Maybe this "Chandra" was herself planning to write the book using the "Lincoln Lawrence" pen name?