About David Icke & James Redfield

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Okay I found the first mention of shape-shifting in Credo's book, and this book was first published in South Africa in 1964. It was again published in Great Britain in 1998.

Those were terrible days - those days when the Dawn of Time was still red in the horizon of Eternity. Those were the days when Outcast Gods, Dimo Giants, Viper Maidens, Life Eaters and Fire Leopards and many other monsters, vicious and horrible beyond description, still roamed a frightened earth.

But let us not delude ourselves into thinking that these horrible creatures no longer exist; they do. They take human shapes and cause evil in the lands of men. They disguise themselves as human beings and cause mighty wars in the lands of the tribes before vanishing once more into the 'Land-that-is-and-is-not'. They leave thousands of foolish human beings to kill each other. They can take over the bodies of people whom we know and commit vile crimes as them. These Evil Ones are with us yet.

Hm.... Also notice how this mentions many different kinds of "monsters" who do this; the only hint of reptilian-types among them are "Viper Maidens." I'm interested to see of the Chitauli are mentioned specifically in the book, and what he says about them. I also wonder if his book ever mentions this stuff in terms of "aliens" rather than just monsters who "roamed a frightened earth." Was Credo's understanding "refined" by later influence to focus around reptilians, Grays, and UFO's?

 

[go2]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Who is "Lincoln Lawrence"?

I found the following paragraph at _http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrolinformation.

Remote hypnosis was also studied. One of the special projects that the CIA has never officially admitted involved the use of a Stimoceiver to induce a hypnotic state. The nasal cavity and the ear were generally used for implantation. Former FBI agent, Arthur J. Ford, who left the Bureau to become a journalist under the name of Lincoln Lawrence, [45] was the first to reveal this in his 1965 book Were we Controlled? P. 161

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Thanks, everyone, for the new posts in the last few days. I just wanted to highlight one thing that caught my attention.

I don't know all the details of Icke's bloodline idea, but I do think he's barking up the wrong tree a bit. He's placed an awful lot of importance on it, because it's a necessary piece of his "reptilian shape-shifter" puzzle. But if we understand the leaders to be psychopaths instead of reptile "hybrids," their obsession with pure bloodlines would just be one of their pathological quirks. They think it matters, but in truth it's just another crazy thing that they do. Still, if de Vere and Twyman are right that the bloodlines are no longer in power today, that would put a serious chink in Icke's entire worldview... So I'd like to hear what he'd say about it too. I wonder if one of the reasons he's moved on is because he's come across info like that, and he doesn't know what to do with it. So he's just kind of downplaying the bloodline thing now. That's just speculation, though.

Now the part I've bolded: what if, as we know, essential/congenital psychopathy is a genetic trait; "essential psychopaths" as defined by Lobaczewski pass down this genetic trait to their offspring. So their "obsession with pure bloodlines" would be because they want to ensure the highest probability to spread their psychopathy in the ruling elite. Because there is always the chance that some of the elite do NOT inherit the psychopathic genes and may at some point work against the pathocracy -- only having been ponerized to varying degrees, but NOT being essential/congenital psychopaths. THAT may be a pretty good explanation of "obsession with pure bloodlines" -- just playing the numbers game to increase the chances of spreading the psychopathic genes the most.

 

[shijing]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

...I've been getting his "newsletter updates" in my email for the past 6 years. And they're still about the same things they always were - RFID chips, vaccinations, the global warming scam, etc. His "we're all One" message is usually tossed in somewhere, but it always has been. So I don't see this change in focus he talked about. Maybe it's still coming.

Speaking of the Icke newsletter updates, I still get them too, and I thought this week's was actually kind of apropos for this discussion:

People are waking up faster and faster in that they can go from the old perception to the new in weeks, even days. These are the Truth Vibrations at work and they are getting more powerful and influential by the hour.

I learned in those earliest days 20 years ago that the Truth Vibrations were not only going to awaken great swathes of humanity from its collective slumber, but would also bring to the surface all that has been hidden.

There is no hiding from the Truth Vibrations, no matter if you are an 'elite' bloodline or have scales on your skin. My own work is an expression of bringing the secret to public awareness, but the revelations about the climate change emails is part of this energy, too, and the exposure of the swine flu agenda that has currently demolished the plans for mass vaccination.

I am not saying that everything is going to be easy from now on. It won't be. There are many challenges to come and I am well aware of attempts in motion to discredit me and my work in the coming months to undermine a new book due out in the first half of 2010 that will contain extraordinary new information.

It matters not, however, what happens to me or what dirt is thrown in my direction. I'll just get up and get on with it. I always do and I always will. I am Consciousness and, therefore, indestructible, just as we all are if only we choose to awaken to our true nature and magnificence.

The Control System is going to continue to move forward for some years yet until the Truth Vibrations bring it down through their effect on human perception and the hidden they bring to public attention. The challenge is to slow down its progress in every way we can until that day comes - as it will.

The part that I put in bold made me think, "hmmm... where have we heard that recently?" Otherwise, this is a nice little precis about what Icke believes, including the inevitability of the 'truth vibrations' (wherever those ultimately emanate from) to inevitably win out over the control system -- something that reeks rather strongly of wishful thinking. But after all, Icke is 'Consciousness and, therefore, indestructible' -- no soul-smashing on his watch ;)

Added: Since the point came up recently in this thread, I guess I should qualify what I say above in that soul-smashing is a Cass-internal concept, so can't be directly used to evaluate Icke's own work, which should be examined on its own merits. I did want to point out what I see as a sharp discrepancy between the two views of reality, though.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Now the part I've bolded: what if, as we know, essential/congenital psychopathy is a genetic trait; "essential psychopaths" as defined by Lobaczewski pass down this genetic trait to their offspring. So their "obsession with pure bloodlines" would be because they want to ensure the highest probability to spread their psychopathy in the ruling elite. Because there is always the chance that some of the elite do NOT inherit the psychopathic genes and may at some point work against the pathocracy -- only having been ponerized to varying degrees, but NOT being essential/congenital psychopaths. THAT may be a pretty good explanation of "obsession with pure bloodlines" -- just playing the numbers game to increase the chances of spreading the psychopathic genes the most.

Thanks, SeekinTruth! That aspect didn't even occur to me. But it makes total sense. If they really are keeping bloodlines pure, they may tell themselves that it's because their traits are superior to ours, so they don't want to "soil" their bloodlines with the blood of "commoners." But in the end it would be exactly as you say - spreading their psychopathic genes.

Speaking of the Icke newsletter updates, I still get them too, and I thought this week's was actually kind of apropos for this discussion:

The part that I put in bold made me think, "hmmm... where have we heard that recently?" Otherwise, this is a nice little precis about what Icke believes, including the inevitability of the 'truth vibrations' (wherever those ultimately emanate from) to inevitably win out over the control system -- something that reeks rather strongly of wishful thinking. But after all, Icke is 'Consciousness and, therefore, indestructible' -- no soul-smashing on his watch ;)

Exactly, this is why Icke has no worries at all that he could be co-opted or deceived by his hyperdimensional sources. He's indestructible! That, plus his "truth vibrations" thing... Wishful thinking indeed, at the very least.

[quote author=Shijing]
Added: Since the point came up recently in this thread, I guess I should qualify what I say above in that soul-smashing is a Cass-internal concept, so can't be directly used to evaluate Icke's own work, which should be examined on its own merits. I did want to point out what I see as a sharp discrepancy between the two views of reality, though.
[/quote]

Good point; they are separate streams of thought entirely. It's probably simple enough to examining Icke's "path to awakening" on its own merits. Icke's way is: "Just realize that you're Pure Consciousness, and Voila! You're awake!" He also mentions how becoming aware of the control agenda is an important aid to grasping how things work, and therefore awakening. And that's about it. In other words, if Laura's method is a Leonardo Da Vinci painting, then Icke's is a stick figure drawn in crayon. There's really nothing TO directly compare. But we can still examine the stick figure to see if it resembles something real.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Who is "Lincoln Lawrence"?

I found the following paragraph at _http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrolinformation.

Remote hypnosis was also studied. One of the special projects that the CIA has never officially admitted involved the use of a Stimoceiver to induce a hypnotic state. The nasal cavity and the ear were generally used for implantation. Former FBI agent, Arthur J. Ford, who left the Bureau to become a journalist under the name of Lincoln Lawrence, [45] was the first to reveal this in his 1965 book Were we Controlled? P. 161

Ok, so now Lincoln Lawrence was an ex-FBI agent who became a journalist, plus we know his real name? This sounds like the most knowledgeable version to me, but why so many different stories about the guy?

 

[Laura]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Now the part I've bolded: what if, as we know, essential/congenital psychopathy is a genetic trait; "essential psychopaths" as defined by Lobaczewski pass down this genetic trait to their offspring. So their "obsession with pure bloodlines" would be because they want to ensure the highest probability to spread their psychopathy in the ruling elite. Because there is always the chance that some of the elite do NOT inherit the psychopathic genes and may at some point work against the pathocracy -- only having been ponerized to varying degrees, but NOT being essential/congenital psychopaths. THAT may be a pretty good explanation of "obsession with pure bloodlines" -- just playing the numbers game to increase the chances of spreading the psychopathic genes the most.

Like I've been saying, who needs aliens when we have psychopaths? Not to say that there aren't aliens - para-physical, paranormal beings, etc, but really, everything CAN be explained by admitting the existence of genetic mutant psychopaths.

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Right or wrong in his theories, he has burgeoned his scope too broadly now (IMHO) to accomplish much in the way of any detailed work.

Yeah, it would require a very well organized team broken up in groups of specialization, to get a true handle on any of the various topics he talks about.

The questions above stated above by several posters about him possibly co-opted midstream are intriguing, and yes: he stated out right in San Jose in 2008 that he could tell that he was surrounded by positive forces that were shaping his work.

Well this was an option I also considered, but then when one looks at the timeline of his ‘career’, things went kind of haywire from the word go. One can only speculate.

I was definitely more receptive to the Wave books once I had been "fertilized" by Icke.

I agree that he serves a good purpose in that sense. The man who made conspiracies mainstream. When I first got one of his books I had never heard of reptilians, and it was all good going until he said “they’re reptiles”. I did think to myself it was a rather unexpected turn, but carried on reading nonetheless. After that book it was a very long time before I looked into conspiracies again, deciding gradually as time went on that the guy must be a nut.

Imagine my shock when I first noticed the word lizies on this forum. “These guys too?!?”. I also remember that light bulb moment when my understanding changed from shape-shifting reptilians into a hyper-dimensional reality.

That's is a tough one as you state very well, though I am one person who looked further.

I can’t imagine that a large percentage of his fan base won’t look further, since he’s not forthcoming with solutions. I mean for Pete’s sake, telling people to wake up and escape the illusion, that is your solution?!? Gee, thanks David! …is there an instruction manual with this? Step by step.

His later development of the reptile theory continues to me to be - a let down.

I would like to know why he’s so adamant on sticking to his theory. That in itself is one of the strangest things with Icke.

He anticipates a time when all of his information will just get "beamed" directly into his head from this "guiding force." And he doesn't even show the slightest indication that he'd confirm this info in any way before believing it and teaching it to others. Just the opposite - he talks as if "five-sense" research is just an imperfect, temporary sustitute.

This is a biggy. I mean even the casualness with which he approached Credo Mutwa also stuns me. I’m not superstitious or anything like that, but those things are not toys. I don’t think I would feel comfortable with Credo Mutwa anywhere near me. Just in case! Maybe it’s just my Christian background or something.

He said in the DVD 3 days after he landed in South Africa he was told about Credo Mutwa. Coincidence? Who knows? He’s actually so in over his head with these kind of things. I like the analogy Laura used of the baby sitting on the floor with a loaded gun showing it to the other babies.

"Who/what is coming through, and what is he receiving" really is the obvious question. It's so obvious that it raises another question - why isn't ICKE asking the same thing?

Well you see that’s just it for me with Icke, the casualness with which he approaches these matters. He’s so identified with his ‘good cause’ the he doesn’t question the benevolence of the ‘higher influence’ in his life, when just the opposite might be likely. The “what are the fruits?” question is a difficult question with Icke, because he’s certainly done some good as well, as this thread has shown.

[quote author=Alderpax]
Since it seems such a clear contradiction, how does Icke confirm that he can trust this force? I think he gives a hint of the answer when he says, "What we believe, we experience." For Icke, his belief that there is more to reality than the "Matrix" opens him up to experiencing that greater reality. So to him, communication with the forces of "good" is a natural result of his own state of mind. And I'm guessing that he assumes his state of mind also "protects him" from channelling the forces of evil. In other words - David Icke is oblivious to the "terror of the situation." To him, enlightenment and flawless discernment require little more than changing your beliefs. Just stop "identifying with the programmed world" and hey presto! You're free! The final answer from that interview gives a perfect example of Icke's simplistic - almost cavalier - attitude in this area:

[quote author=Rinf.com Interview]
Rinf.com asks:
Finally David, thank you for taking the time to answer our questions and do you recommend any aura cleansing / meditation techniques to prevent these negative energies of from tuning in or clinging to our psyche?
[/quote]

David Icke:
Live with joy and without fear. Aura cleansed.
[/quote]

Very valid observation.

I mean not to get stuck on Credo, but the stuff he shares on camera is no joke. Eating the hand of a corpse 2 days dead. His familiarity with the knowledge of prolonging one’s life with the ritual sacrifice of a virgin, essentially ‘stealing’ some of the virgin’s life force. Anybody? Those witchdoctors dabble with stuff we don’t want to know about. That was still the stuff he was prepared to share, he says in his book that there are things he may never share.

What are Credo’s fruits? Well, 70% of black Southern Africans surveyed believed muti to be more effective when it contains human body parts.

This is also not exclusive to the Zulus either. They believe it is possible to appropriate the life force of one person through the literal consumption of another. It might not come from Credo directly, who knows, but it comes from the witchdoctors. If he believes this not to be so, he can set this nonsense straight. He’s the big man. Their superstitions are funny to a point, until the dark side enters the picture, then it’s no laughing matter, it’s savage.

Does Icke consider any of these things, when he's safely tucked in, in Britain, with a hanging mobile circling above his head?...

I’m not attacking Credo, I mean his book actually made me cry. He is a very gifted storyteller, and he apparently runs an AIDS orphanage. I don’t know. Maybe you get 2 polarities amongst witchdoctors. Maybe some specialize in benevolence and some specialize in malevolence. Yes, this sounds about right to me. I don’t know, much to consider.

[quote author=Alderpax]

Look, I just need to set this straight. It might have come across as if I absolutely despise Madiba, which I don’t. I am actually quite fond of him. The lines between right and wrong were very blurred in those days – aren’t they always, actually. I don’t view the world in black and white like that. There’s right, there’s wrong, and then there’s the specific circumstance which determines which is which. Winnie, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish, she has no conscience.

Noted. I don't view the world in stark black and white either. As for circumstances determining whether an act is right or wrong, I think that's true too, but I'm not sure "the lines being blurred" back then qualifies. That could almost be used as an excuse or justification, like "I was just following orders" or "everyone else was doing it." Having a reason for doing something isn't the same as circumstances making it right to do something.
[/quote]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. ;) Depends on where you're standing.

A big thing I've noticed too: Icke has never come out and said exactly what this "guiding force" has revealed to him. He always makes these vague references to it, but he never says what info he's received this way. In the past, when his ideas were questioned he'd bring up the fact that they're so well-researched. He'd say things like, "don't take my word for it; do the research and you'll find out for yourself!" But once info from this "force" replaces his "five-sense" research, what's he going to say then?

Exactly.

[quote author=Alderpax]
Also, in the beginning of Children of the Matrix there are the following quotes:

[quote author=Children of the Matrix]
"Ridicule is the tribute that mediocrity pays to genius."
- Anon.
[/quote][/quote]

The fact that Icke makes this quote applicable to himself speaks volumes. Another thing I considered with Icke lately, and with regard to possible narcissism, is with Icke, it’s always about Icke. The topics he talks about usually takes a back seat, it’s always “I’m condemned”, “I’m ridiculed”, “I realized what a small box I had been living in”, “I, I, I”. Even some of his book and DVD covers are suggestive of narcicism.

With Icke it’s about Icke, first and foremost. This brings us back to the Icke forum. If he cared about the people, it would have reflected on his forum. It doesn’t.

This one as well:

Or this one:

Just something I’ve observed.

Regarding the famous people you mentioned, the only ones Icke has directly called "shape-shifters" are the Queen and the Bushes, and the Queen is the only one he got from Arizona Wilder (at least the "finer details"). He got his info about Kris Kristofferson and Boxcar Willie from Cathy O'Brien's account in Trance-Formation of America. But in that book they're only mentioned as evil men involved in the conspiracy, not reptilian shape-shifters (your quote from I am me, I am free contains these references, so I won't re-post them). The claim that Icke called them reptiles seems to have originated from a single source, since most such references to Kristofferson and Boxcar Willie sound very similar in wording. One article I read says it came from a 2001 article in London's Evening Star newspaper. The claim also appears in Icke's Wikipedia entry.

Oh okay, thanks. I was wondering about that after I quoted the bit about Kristopherson and Boxcar Willie, and I’m also familiar with the wikipedia entry. Has any of these people ever taken legal action against Icke? Imagine that law suit! “Your honour, he is accusing my client of being a reptile!”

Interestingly, I remember seeing references on "reptilian" websites to some odd-sounding phrase that a "shape-shifter" couldn't speak, and knowledge of this fact could be used to prove them as a reptilian.

Okay Alderpax, repeat after me “Ka nama kaa lajerama”. Just kidding!

Alderpax you have really dug up a considerable amount of data, thank you. It’s quite an eye opener how Icke influenced everyone.

I’m a bit stuck on Credo Mutwa at the moment, but then I’ll be able to check out some of Icke’s ‘enemies’ that you’ve mentioned. :)


*************************


EDIT: I did not think that Credo condoned these killings. I searched a little bit. He is vehemently against it, I guess I was just naively wondering why he can't use his influence to make it stop.

he actually assists the rutual murder squad in their investigations.

http://ngccommunity.nationalgeographic.com/ngcblogs/explorer/2005/02/the-witchcraft-murder.html

O'Reilly hired Credo Mutwa, a well-known and powerful sangoma who abhorred the use of dark practices by some of his peers, to provide insights on Adam's murder.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Like I've been saying, who needs aliens when we have psychopaths? Not to say that there aren't aliens - para-physical, paranormal beings, etc, but really, everything CAN be explained by admitting the existence of genetic mutant psychopaths.

Very true. Which makes me wonder - What would our world be like if 4D STS mysteriously decided to remove their influence from this point in history onwards? Would things stay as they are, due to how well it's all been set up?

That's is a tough one as you state very well, though I am one person who looked further.

I can’t imagine that a large percentage of his fan base won’t look further, since he’s not forthcoming with solutions. I mean for Pete’s sake, telling people to wake up and escape the illusion, that is your solution?!? Gee, thanks David! …is there an instruction manual with this? Step by step.

Now that you mention it, what is the deal with this? Do all of Icke's followers see themselves as enlightened like their mentor? Probably not. So why don't they look elsewhere? Maybe Icke is so vague that many followers don't see "enlightenment" as a big deal. They may think, "Well, David has it, so if we follow David we're fine." This vagueness may also be why some followers just focus on the "reptilian conspiracy" and ignore the spiritual parts altogether. I do know that many Icke followers actively use New Age practices and techniques - I did so myself back then. Plus there's Icke's advice that we all take monoatomic gold. Which, per the C's, is NOT a recommended practice: (see http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=617.0).

That said... In Children of the Matrix Icke does delineate a three-step plan. It's only fair to let Icke speak for himself, so here it is, with the surrounding material for context:

[quote author=David Icke]
We can take the straight-on path and walk the Freedom Road. If that's our choice, there are some fundamental changes to make. First, we free ourselves from the illusion and the reactions and responses of the Matrix mentality. Unless we start to free ourselves, how can we hope to free the world around us, which is merely an outward manifestation of the inner self? We live in an external prison while thinking we are free because we live in an internal prison while thinking we are free. The prison without is is a reflection of the prison within. Change ourselves and we change the world. Look in the mirror. Try changing the image you see without changing the image it is reflecting. You can't, of course you can't, but the human race has been trying to do that for thousands of years and that's why it has never worked. I have written before of the three crucial elements that I believe are the key to unlocking the gates and the portals to multi-dimensional freedom.

1. We let go of the fear of what other people think of us and start living and expressing our own uniqueness of lifestyle, view, and reality. When we do this we step out of the herd and if enough of us do it, there is no herd.

2. We allow everyone else the freedom and respect to express their uniqueness without the fear of ridicule and condemnation for the crime of being different. When we do that we cease to be a sheepdog keeping the herd in line.

3. No one seeks to impose their beliefs or reality on anyone else, so always respecting the freedom of others to make different choices. This is the balance point that stops one person's free will imposing itself on another.

These three steps would trigger a transformation of such magnitude that they would turn this prison into a paradise. And all three, as they relate to us, we have the power to introduce right now. This book may have said much about bloodlines and the history and techniques of human servitude. It may have highlighted at some length the reptilian genetic connection to all this. That's important because people need to know what is going on at that level of reality. But what this book has really been about is humanity freeing itself from the Great Illusion. If I had to choose one thought that people would remember from these pages, one thought that would transform this world more than any other, it would be this:

It's just a game. It's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. The truth is not out there. It is within you. And that truth is love.

[Footnote at the bottom of the page regarding last paragraph] Bill Hicks ended many of his performances with these words.
[/quote]

So there we have it. This is David Icke's entire "key to unlocking the gates and the portals to multi-dimensional freedom." Or at least it was as of 2001. The thing I noticed was that his three steps are nothing more than good self-esteem and social freedom. They're actually fine advice, but they wouldn't lead to being Pure Consciousness as Icke claims he is. Those three steps are also not very easy to implement. And this also shows a danger of Icke not accounting for psychopathy - If we're dealing with his shape-shifters, then the more "positive" we become, the less they can do to us. But with psychopaths, our level of positivity is meaningless. In fact, it might make us easier targets. Icke's problem is compounded by restricting the issue to the government level, making his followers ripe for the picking by the everyday psychopaths one may encounter.

All in all, what Icke says above lends credence to Rixon Stuart's accusation that Icke's spiritual understanding is "almost infantile."

He anticipates a time when all of his information will just get "beamed" directly into his head from this "guiding force." And he doesn't even show the slightest indication that he'd confirm this info in any way before believing it and teaching it to others. Just the opposite - he talks as if "five-sense" research is just an imperfect, temporary sustitute.

This is a biggy.

To be fair, I misinterpreted what Icke said when I made that statment. He didn't actually say what he anticipates happening in the future. He just mentioned what was happening currently. But that was 2005, so I'd like to see what HAS changed since then, if anything.

I mean even the casualness with which he approached Credo Mutwa also stuns me. I’m not superstitious or anything like that, but those things are not toys. I don’t think I would feel comfortable with Credo Mutwa anywhere near me. Just in case! Maybe it’s just my Christian background or something.

He said in the DVD 3 days after he landed in South Africa he was told about Credo Mutwa. Coincidence? Who knows? He’s actually so in over his head with these kind of things.

Yes, Icke's apparent naivete is hard to explain. Also, the 3 days thing... Icke's info often seems to come from people who approach him "out of the blue" to confirm that he's right, or to lead him in certain directions - eye-witnesses walk up to him on the street talking about shape-shifters... Arizona Wilder is introduced to him by Brian Desborough and confirms his current train of thought in every detail... And then Credo Mutwa, who is handed to Icke "on a silver platter" three days after landing in South Africa. Icke attributes these things to "amazing synchronicities" which prove he's on the right track. But it looks like he might be getting led around by the nose, much like the entities speaking through Betty Shine told him they'd done throughout his life.

[quote author=E]
I like the analogy Laura used of the baby sitting on the floor with a loaded gun showing it to the other babies.
[/quote]

Wow... I agree, that sounds pretty apt.

[quote author=E]
The “what are the fruits?” question is a difficult question with Icke, because he’s certainly done some good as well, as this thread has shown.
[/quote]

He has, but the good only seems to come for those who leave Icke behind. So they are sort of "accidental" fruits. I think some positive results could come from a group of people following Icke's "three step solution" above... But if they're doing it with the idea that it results in spiritual enlightenment, it would lead to a lot of wishful thinking and inflated egos. Anyone who sticks with Icke will remain asleep while thinking they've woken up. And that's a majorly rotten fruit.

[quote author=E]
I mean not to get stuck on Credo, but the stuff he shares on camera is no joke. Eating the hand of a corpse 2 days dead. His familiarity with the knowledge of prolonging one’s life with the ritual sacrifice of a virgin, essentially ‘stealing’ some of the virgin’s life force. Anybody? Those witchdoctors dabble with stuff we don’t want to know about. That was still the stuff he was prepared to share, he says in his book that there are things he may never share.

What are Credo’s fruits? Well, 70% of black Southern Africans surveyed believed muti to be more effective when it contains human body parts.

This is also not exclusive to the Zulus either. They believe it is possible to appropriate the life force of one person through the literal consumption of another. It might not come from Credo directly, who knows, but it comes from the witchdoctors. If he believes this not to be so, he can set this nonsense straight. He’s the big man. Their superstitions are funny to a point, until the dark side enters the picture, then it’s no laughing matter, it’s savage.
[/quote]

I don't see you as "stuck" on Credo; everything you've shared about him is very relevant to the discussion. :) There definitely seems to be a dark side to him... And you're totally right - while all the savage atrocities are going on, where is he? I couldn't imagine a world where the bulk of Catholics believed all sorts of horrible, twisted things, completely ignoring what the Pope says - or not even KNOWING what he says. And Catholicism exists on an enormous scale compared to the Zulus. So the big question is, how can the Zulus revere Credo as their spiritual leader, and simultaneously hold beliefs which are in complete opposition to his? If the Zulus don't have access to Credo directly, or even his books, maybe local witchdoctors can tell them "this is what Credo says" and they won't know the difference?

Does Icke consider any of these things, when he's safely tucked in, in Britain, with a hanging mobile circling above his head?...

Good question. I wonder if doubts occasionally cross his mind, but he silences them by going "Nah... I couldn't be wrong. I'm Pure Consciousness!" How would he reconcile his transcendent status with admitting to a huge mistake?

I’m not attacking Credo, I mean his book actually made me cry. He is a very gifted storyteller, and he apparently runs an AIDS orphanage. I don’t know. Maybe you get 2 polarities amongst witchdoctors. Maybe some specialize in benevolence and some specialize in malevolence. Yes, this sounds about right to me. I don’t know, much to consider.

This may be, but why would so many Zulus side with the malevolent polarity? Unless they don't realize they're doing it. Maybe witchdoctors are just like other religious leaders - some of them are genuine, caring people, while others are greedy, manipulative wolves. Or even psychopaths.

[quote author=E]

[quote author=Alderpax]
Noted. I don't view the world in stark black and white either. As for circumstances determining whether an act is right or wrong, I think that's true too, but I'm not sure "the lines being blurred" back then qualifies. That could almost be used as an excuse or justification, like "I was just following orders" or "everyone else was doing it." Having a reason for doing something isn't the same as circumstances making it right to do something.
[/quote]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. ;) Depends on where you're standing.
[/quote]

You seem to be talking about moral judgment, which is subjective. The objective fact - is an act right or wrong - just is what it is. Circumstances DO determine which is which, but that very statement means something is one or the other. And if there's not enough info to determine, one can only say "I don't know." Anything else is assumption/opinion, which is self-deception. This is where some of us (including me) went wrong regarding Icke, which you pointed out so well. Note that even if a single act of Nelson's could be determined as wrong, he could still be a great man overall - and 99% of what he did back then could've been right. Good people do make bad decisions. Something which could also apply to Icke, based on what we know at this point.

[quote author=Alderpax]
Also, in the beginning of Children of the Matrix there are the following quotes:

[quote author=Children of the Matrix]
"Ridicule is the tribute that mediocrity pays to genius."
- Anon.

[/quote]

The fact that Icke makes this quote applicable to himself speaks volumes. Another thing I considered with Icke lately, and with regard to possible narcissism, is with Icke, it’s always about Icke. The topics he talks about usually takes a back seat, it’s always “I’m condemned”, “I’m ridiculed”, “I realized what a small box I had been living in”, “I, I, I”.
[/quote]

You seem to be onto something here. Note also how the first of Icke's "three steps" is "We let go of the fear of what other people think of us and start expressing our own uniqueness..." This is the big issue that Icke struggled with his whole life, until his "truth-seeking" career took off. So even when it's not about Icke, it may still be about Icke. He likes to talk a lot about how he's no longer afraid of what others think of him. His "fixation" on the fact that he's ridiculed seems to be part of this. His childhood dread has become a reality, and he really wants us to know just how much it doesn't bother him. And he likes to drive this home again and again. To him this is an enormous victory, probably, but he can take it too far.

But we have to be careful. I've heard similar things said against Laura for sharing details of her life. She's been accused of "always whining about her problems," "throwing pity parties," etc. I even heard the exact thing you said about Icke here - that with Laura it's always about Laura. But we know that none of this is true. There's always a good reason when Laura shares from her personal life. She's teaching something important using her experiences as examples. Sometimes she's also doing it to set the record straight on something, also for good reason (and this can teach lessons, as well). So is this what Icke is doing? Sometimes it is, but at other times it does look mighty suspicious. I do know that Laura has never published a book with her face as the focal point on the cover. And Icke's face is prominent on many of his books and DVDs, as you've shown.

I used a program to find that the name "David Icke" appears 50 times on his site's homepage alone (with "David" appearing by itself 10 times). Just for comparison, I went to the Cass homepage and searched for "Laura Knight-Jadczyk." And even with the large amount of text there, "Laura Knight-Jadczyk" appears only 5 times (with "Laura" appearing by itself 17 times). This is including the sidebar, which shows Laura's name three times only because she wrote three of the articles listed there. Does all of this mean anything? Maybe Icke's site is just structured differently. It mostly consists of headings and advertisements, while the Cass site is mainly a single extensive introduction. But 50 times?? This partly means that "David Icke" is pretty much his brand name - the man is what's being promoted. I know Icke didn't create the Website himself, but he's familiar with it.

Here's a link to Icke's site from early 2001, from the "Wayback Machine" _http://web.archive.org/web/20010113220300/http://davidicke.com/index.html

It's far simpler and less professional, but even then David Icke the man is the prominent focus. If you click the "red pill" on the page, you reach a page that (again) features Icke's photo, along with his name. Below the photo, you read his 2001 slogan:

MAD, BAD,
OR JUST PREPARED
TO GO WHERE OTHERS
FEAR TO TREAD?

The most controversial author
and speaker in the world

"Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut,
that held its ground."

Focus? ICKE! Even the background graphic features his name over and over again. Now this was 8 years ago, and Icke could've changed since then. But has he? I browsed the Wayback Machine site for any changes through the years, and it's the same basic format until 2004, when the homepage essentially started being a storefront for his books and DVDs. Same story in 2005, except with the added heading, "Welcome to one of the most popular Websites in the World!" This "storefront" format lasted until 2007, when it became the site we see today (which is still essentially a storefront.

[quote author=E]

With Icke it’s about Icke, first and foremost. This brings us back to the Icke forum. If he cared about the people, it would have reflected on his forum. It doesn’t.

[/quote]

Exactly, they're left to fumble about on their own. But maybe we can't blame Icke for this, because it's how the majority of online forums are run. the Cass forum is pretty unique in that the forum itself is part of a networking/feedback process. It acts as a school of sorts. Other forums can be very random in that they're just various people slinging ideas around. They're a lot more loosely-structured. Which isn't necessarily bad; they serve a different purpose. The quality of the info often suffers because of it, though. And holy cow there's a lot of fighting...

Has any of these people ever taken legal action against Icke? Imagine that law suit! “Your honour, he is accusing my client of being a reptile!”

I don't think so. This is actually one of the things Icke likes to bring up. The Jon Ronson article posted by Laura earlier in the thread (top of page 5) shows a typical example:

Wheels had already been set in motion. The Canadian hate crimes unit had been alerted. So had the media. The coalition had also written to the former Canadian prime minister, Brian Mulroney, to inform him that David Icke was accusing him of being a reptilian, child-sacrificing paedophile. But so far, to the coalition's bafflement, Mulroney had declined to initiate legal action. Indeed, every individual accused of reptilian paedophilia by David Icke had so far failed to sue, including Bob Hope, George Bush, George Bush Jr, Ted Heath, the Rothschild family, Boxcar Willie, the Queen of England, the Queen Mother, Prince Philip, Kris Kristofferson, Al Gore and the steering committee of the Bilderberg Group.

"Why do you think that is?" David Icke had asked me when I interviewed him about this matter in London. Then he turned to my notepad and thundered, "Come on, Ted Heath! Sue me if you've got nothing to hide! Come on, George Bush! I'm ready! Sue me! I'm naming names! Come on, Jon? Why are they refusing to sue me?"

There was a silence. "Because they are twelve-foot lizards?" I suggested, smally.

"Yes!" said David. "Exactly!"

Interestingly, I remember seeing references on "reptilian" websites to some odd-sounding phrase that a "shape-shifter" couldn't speak, and knowledge of this fact could be used to prove them as a reptilian.

Okay Alderpax, repeat after me “Ka nama kaa lajerama”. Just kidding!

Ka nanna kaa laj... laj... Oh man, you caught me! Now you know why I'm saying all this stuff about Icke! I was so close, too...

Alderpax you have really dug up a considerable amount of data, thank you. It’s quite an eye opener how Icke influenced everyone.

I’m a bit stuck on Credo Mutwa at the moment, but then I’ll be able to check out some of Icke’s ‘enemies’ that you’ve mentioned. :)

And thank you for bringing up lots of good stuff too, including the Mutwa info. That's really filling in a huge "gap" in our knowledge.

And now I have a small "ethical dilemma" to post to you (and anyone else here). I'd really love to read the book Pandora's Box by researcher Alex Christopher, as well as her sequel Pandora's Box II, which features her expose of the Denver Airport. Two editions of the first book are listed on Amazon - one is $175.00, and the other is $1,461.99(!!!). The second book is nowhere to be found. However... while searching the Web for the books, I came across both of them for download as "free e-books" scanned from the pages of the originals. There's no way I could purchase the first book at those prices, and the second isn't available anywhere. Objectively speaking, would downloading the free e-books be right or wrong?

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Thanks, SeekinTruth! That aspect didn't even occur to me. But it makes total sense. If they really are keeping bloodlines pure, they may tell themselves that it's because their traits are superior to ours, so they don't want to "soil" their bloodlines with the blood of "commoners." But in the end it would be exactly as you say - spreading their psychopathic genes.

Yup. I would say it would be a pretty high priority to spread the psychopathic genes.

Ok, so now Lincoln Lawrence was an ex-FBI agent who became a journalist, plus we know his real name? This sounds like the most knowledgeable version to me, but why so many different stories about the guy?

Yeah, there's so many versions of this story, even the dates the book about the JFK assissination was published, that it makes you wonder what the heck is going on.

Like I've been saying, who needs aliens when we have psychopaths? Not to say that there aren't aliens - para-physical, paranormal beings, etc, but really, everything CAN be explained by admitting the existence of genetic mutant psychopaths.

Exactly. And these things are very closely related. Psychopaths seem to be the ultimate expression of STS in OUR density as the "aliens" are in THEIRS.

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

This may be, but why would so many Zulus side with the malevolent polarity? Unless they don't realize they're doing it.

Now that I’m reading Credo’s book, I starting to have a much better understanding of these things. It is not so much a matter of siding with the malevolent polarity. It is their religion. It is not ‘wrong’ per se, see it more as appeasing the gods.

I will explain my understanding. I have now acquainted myself with their version of ‘Adam & Eve’ and the birth of creation, which is called ‘Odu & Amarava’, only Odu was the ‘Tree of Life’ walking around on his roots, and Amarava was an exquisite immortal goddess. This is extremely simplified, you can’t even call this a skeleton, best read the book. They are still polytheists. There’s a god of thunder, a god of rain, a god of the underworld, a god of fertility etc. etc. etc., too many gods to mention. Some gods are benevolent and some are malevolent. I see now where the Tokoloshes also originate from. They are demons in service of Za-Ha-Rrellel, which is like their Satan. But they don’t only have one Satan, there are many-many really evil gods that are the equivalent of the Christian Satan.

Now understanding why they believe this, is not difficult at all, because if you flip the coin, we believed that Jonah was swallowed by a great fish, Simpson and Delilah, David & Goliath, resurrection from the dead, turning water into wine, feuding gods, blah, blah, blah... There is just as much magic in our bible, as there is in their ‘bible’, only they don’t have a bible, they have an oral tradition. A ‘storyteller’ in their culture, is an extremely responsible task. The same way our bible end with “And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Their storytellers have the same laws. They must “repeat the story exactly as they heard it, without changing, adding or subtracting a single word – Indaba, My Children…”. If you think the Israelites and the Egyptians were busy up there in ‘biblical times’, you are in for a great shock, as I was.

This is their ‘bible’, and it’s why Credo says it’s the truth.

I enjoy Credo, he’s very wise man!...and he calls a spade a spade!

Many strange things have happened in Africa; things that have puzzled, disgusted and shocked the world, especially in recent years; things for which the world has had little or no explanation and things that can best be explained by first laying bare – to the rest of humanity – the strange working of the mind of the African.

Many will find it hard to believe much of what I have revealed in this book, but I am not in the least concerned, because whether I am believed or not, everything I write here is true.

Much of what I shall reveal here will shock and anger many people – most of all my fellow, Bantu, who resent having their doings and secrets exposed to foreigners. By writing many of these things, I am becoming, in terms of our tribal laws, a traitor to my own race. And this is going to make me hold back much of what I should also reveal. Terrible as the stigma of traitor is, I shall risk bearing it in belief that what I am doing here will help my people in the end. Only time will tell whether I am right or wrong.

There has been much suffering and bloodshed in Africa in recent years – bloodshed that has led to hatred and still more suffering. And the most pathetic thing about it is that much of this could have been prevented had the White rulers of Africa had a better knowledge and a better understanding of the way a Black man’s mind works than they do, even now.

Kenya’s Mau Mau uprising, Angola’s rebellion, the massacres in the Congo, riots and killings in South Africa – all soon to be written in blood permanently on the highway of human history, all soon to be written in bleached bones on the desert of time – all were started by one thing – the total lack of understanding between Black and White; the utter failure of one race of human beings to understand what goes on in the minds of the other race.

The saddest thing is that the misunderstanding is mostly on one side – the more powerful side – the White man’s side. If any Black man with little knowledge of English, French or Portuguese wants to study the White man – as I have done – all he has to do is to go into the nearest town and become a regular customer of one of the second-hand bookshops there. He must buy and read at least twenty different kinds of books and magazines a month for a period of no less than ten years. He must read classics, philosophical works and even cheap murder mysteries and science fiction. He must read Homer, Virgil, Aristotle, and the rest. He must turn the pages of Walter Scott, Voltaire or Peter Cheyney. He must read the newspapers with great care.

Gradually, as the years pass, he will gain more or less of a clear understanding of the White man, his way of life, his hopes and ambitions. But few White people have ever bothered to study the African people carefully – and by this I do not mean driving round the African villages taking photographs of dancing tribesmen and women asking a few questions, and then going back and writing a book – a useless book full of errors, wrong impressions and just plain nonsense. Many of the books written by Europeans about Africans should be relegated to the dustbin.

There are doctors, missionaries and scientists who have spent years and years among Africans – many of them can even speak the local language better than the indigenous people – but what they know about them as human beings amounts to nothing. Many have studied the African only to compare him with the White man – intellectually for instance. Many more have studied the African in order to find justification for the policies of the ruling group they work for and support.

I once heard a well-known and respected White intellectual state that when Zulus perform a war dance before going into battle they are dancing themselves into a frenzy of rage and showing what they are going to do to their enemies on the battlefield. This statement, logical though it may sound, is as far from the truth as the Day Star is from the worm crawling on a rotten pumpkin.

Another fallacy dear to may people, both overseas and in South Africa, is that Africans practise polygamy as a sign of wealth and prestige. And if that is so the I, Vusamazulu Mutwa, am the favourite ‘wife’ of the first High Chief of Ashanti! Ask many anthropologists in South Africa who was the greatest Zulu King and he will reply instantly: ‘Tshaka, of course’. That is not so; Tshaka (or Shaka) was not the great Chief White historians make him out to be.

Thus you see what I am trying to achieve with this book: simply to lay the foundation for better understanding between two different types of human beings, by destroying wrong notions and false ‘facts’, and exposing much of what must be known at the risk of censure by both Black and White people. […]

Why, so great is the lack of understanding between White and Black that there are Africans – hundreds of them – who still believe, in this jet and sputnik age, that White people never mate as common human beings do; that White women do not bear their children in the painful way Black mamanas bear their piccanins … but that they lay shining glass eggs that hatch out little Bwanas a day after being laid! Surprising? Maybe, but it is true!

So basically, telling them their cultural beliefs are laughable, or even savage (like the muti), is the equivalent of telling a Christian that Jesus is not returning on a cloud one day. If you tell these people who believe these things with their whole being, since they were told this over and over from birth, the way we were told the biblical stories over and over that it’s unacceptable, it’s a futile exercise. It is just another example of how religion corrupts, in this case a polytheistic religion infinitely darker than Christianity can ever hope to be. It is not just the Zulus, it’s all the Southern and Central African tribes – Zulu, Venda, Ndebele, Xhosa, Pedi, Mashona (Zimbabwe), Batswana (Botswana) etc.

Credo is an 89 year old man, a very wise man, and he believes every word of this story. It is their bible, it is their religion. We can scream, and shout, and complain, and cry, and educate until we are blue in the face, it is like talking into the wind. Best look the other way and spare yourself the trouble. It is like when they do their umkhosi wokweshwama. The more that animal suffers, the more the god’s are appeased, and the greater the reward. Same with the muti, the more the victim suffers and screams, the more the god’s are appeased, and the greater the reward, that’s why the victim is kept alive through the mutilation.

So tackling these monstrosities is not child’s play. Much more water will still run into the sea, before these religions come to an end.

Of course, you have the same thing as the white religions have, people deciding this is all a load of %#&@*! They are the Westernised urbanites. The ruralites are another matter altogether. If there are any Zulus on this forum who wish to expand on my very limited understanding of these matters, jump right in.

 

[Kimber]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Fwiw, If one makes the assumption or conclusion that Icke is aware of exactly everything that has been posted on
his website, then I can absolutely state he is Aware of the STO and STS polarities of Being. He is also very much
informed of LKJ's work. Back in 2001 and 2002 I read TWBS and All the articles on his website. I had composed
an entire notebook on my 'take' of his body of work. Around Sept/Oct of 2003 there was an Article on his site,
A critique of the Harry Potter' series. It contained examples of sts/sto in the story line. And it linked to The
Cassiopaea Website. This is how I found the Cass Website. I would add that I do not remember who wrote the
article on Icke's website in regards to to Harry Potter series and I was asked how I found the Cass site by a
cass chat moderator when I attempted to join cass chat. I do not know if the moderator- K.S. investigated the
link from Icke's site as she was very doubtful of my statements concerning the article and the link, also requiring
that I write a thesis on 'The Wave' as a requirement to join.
When I did get to the material that LKJ had written about Icke I was in agreement and could substantiate my
agreements due to the notebook I had accumulated on him and his sources or lack of them (I followed his sources.)
I still follow him from time to time, and it its extremely interesting that the 'new comers' to the new age yak scene, ie-
jones, tsarion hold him in high esteem as their reference point in the articles/books that are now being written.

 

[shijing]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Hi Alderpax --

And now I have a small "ethical dilemma" to post to you (and anyone else here). I'd really love to read the book Pandora's Box by researcher Alex Christopher, as well as her sequel Pandora's Box II, which features her expose of the Denver Airport. Two editions of the first book are listed on Amazon - one is $175.00, and the other is $1,461.99(!!!). The second book is nowhere to be found. However... while searching the Web for the books, I came across both of them for download as "free e-books" scanned from the pages of the originals. There's no way I could purchase the first book at those prices, and the second isn't available anywhere. Objectively speaking, would downloading the free e-books be right or wrong?

I've been waiting to see if anyone else responded about this, since its a really tough dilemma. Since no one has, I'm going to jump in really quickly. Given what I understand at this point, it seems to be the case that if you are reasonably sure that there is still copyright in place, then it is probably not a good idea to download the PDFs (I know how tempting it is -- not long ago, I would have just downloaded them without a second thought myself). Something you can do is see what you can do to investigate the copyright (its probably intact, but worth a shot) or otherwise see what you can do to either contact the author or the publishing company directly. You may find that they can either offer you a better deal than what you are finding on Amazon, or at least some alternatives about where else to look. I fully support trying to find out more, since I'd love to see you go to town on these books and report here if they had good information.

 

[Jacques]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Hi Alderpax --

And now I have a small "ethical dilemma" to post to you (and anyone else here). I'd really love to read the book Pandora's Box by researcher Alex Christopher, as well as her sequel Pandora's Box II, which features her expose of the Denver Airport. Two editions of the first book are listed on Amazon - one is $175.00, and the other is $1,461.99(!!!). The second book is nowhere to be found. However... while searching the Web for the books, I came across both of them for download as "free e-books" scanned from the pages of the originals. There's no way I could purchase the first book at those prices, and the second isn't available anywhere. Objectively speaking, would downloading the free e-books be right or wrong?

I've been waiting to see if anyone else responded about this, since its a really tough dilemma. Since no one has, I'm going to jump in really quickly. Given what I understand at this point, it seems to be the case that if you are reasonably sure that there is still copyright in place, then it is probably not a good idea to download the PDFs (I know how tempting it is -- not long ago, I would have just downloaded them without a second thought myself). Something you can do is see what you can do to investigate the copyright (its probably intact, but worth a shot) or otherwise see what you can do to either contact the author or the publishing company directly. You may find that they can either offer you a better deal than what you are finding on Amazon, or at least some alternatives about where else to look. I fully support trying to find out more, since I'd love to see you go to town on these books and report here if they had good information.

As you probably know, this kind of subject has been discussed here.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

This may be, but why would so many Zulus side with the malevolent polarity? Unless they don't realize they're doing it.

Now that I’m reading Credo’s book, I starting to have a much better understanding of these things. It is not so much a matter of siding with the malevolent polarity. It is their religion. It is not ‘wrong’ per se, see it more as appeasing the gods.

Wow, that was an eye-opener. I agree that if it's a matter of religion, it's pretty much set in stone for them.

Fwiw, If one makes the assumption or conclusion that Icke is aware of exactly everything that has been posted on
his website, then I can absolutely state he is Aware of the STO and STS polarities of Being. He is also very much
informed of LKJ's work. Back in 2001 and 2002 I read TWBS and All the articles on his website. I had composed
an entire notebook on my 'take' of his body of work. Around Sept/Oct of 2003 there was an Article on his site,
A critique of the Harry Potter' series. It contained examples of sts/sto in the story line. And it linked to The
Cassiopaea Website. This is how I found the Cass Website.

Very interesting. If Icke is aware of Laura's work and concepts like STO/STS... He either doesn't think much of it, or he's deliberately distancing himself from it. Either one is pretty odd, considering the parallels with his own work. Could Icke have noticed that if Laura is correct it would mean many of his own theories are way off-base? Maybe he doesn't want others exposed to her work for that reason.

Hi Alderpax --

And now I have a small "ethical dilemma" to post to you (and anyone else here). I'd really love to read the book Pandora's Box by researcher Alex Christopher, as well as her sequel Pandora's Box II, which features her expose of the Denver Airport. Two editions of the first book are listed on Amazon - one is $175.00, and the other is $1,461.99(!!!). The second book is nowhere to be found. However... while searching the Web for the books, I came across both of them for download as "free e-books" scanned from the pages of the originals. There's no way I could purchase the first book at those prices, and the second isn't available anywhere. Objectively speaking, would downloading the free e-books be right or wrong?

I've been waiting to see if anyone else responded about this, since its a really tough dilemma. Since no one has, I'm going to jump in really quickly. Given what I understand at this point, it seems to be the case that if you are reasonably sure that there is still copyright in place, then it is probably not a good idea to download the PDFs (I know how tempting it is -- not long ago, I would have just downloaded them without a second thought myself). Something you can do is see what you can do to investigate the copyright (its probably intact, but worth a shot) or otherwise see what you can do to either contact the author or the publishing company directly. You may find that they can either offer you a better deal than what you are finding on Amazon, or at least some alternatives about where else to look. I fully support trying to find out more, since I'd love to see you go to town on these books and report here if they had good information.

As you probably know, this kind of subject has been discussed here.

Shijing and Bohort,

I will look into any copyright issues, but if the copyright is still intact I'll investigate other possibilities. I'd only download them at all because I'm literally unable to purchase them, not just to "save a buck" or something... But I'm not going to do it unless it's legal. I'll see if I can get in contact with the publisher. Thanks for the advice, Shijing. And thanks, Bohort, for linking to that other thread; it helped clarify the issue quite a bit. If the e-books DO turn out to be legal, maybe they can be added to the virtual library. So it's worth investigating for that reason, too.