About David Icke & James Redfield
- Thread starter Argonaut
- Start date
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
Not to go too far off topic here, but is Castenada's predator`s mind the same as the reptilian brain?
Not to go too far off topic here, but is Castenada's predator`s mind the same as the reptilian brain?
Cs said:
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
Hi E,
While I was re-reading The Wave series, in book #3, I think, I had a "moment"
where certain things started clicking, and it was in relation to the reptilian brain being the same "predator's mind" that Castenada talks about. We really DO have the predator's mind.
If you look at just what the repilian brain does/is it becomes very obvious that this is the predator's mind, or so I think. The reptilian brain is in control of the Basic Emotions (lower emotional center?) which covers jealousy, lust, fear, anger, hate.....all of the things that keep us locked into a continuing cycle of mechanicalness, unless we become aware of it and try to awaken and overcome this primitive brain and its fear-driven ways.
At least that's my take on it at this time.
E said:
Hi E,
While I was re-reading The Wave series, in book #3, I think, I had a "moment"
where certain things started clicking, and it was in relation to the reptilian brain being the same "predator's mind" that Castenada talks about. We really DO have the predator's mind.If you look at just what the repilian brain does/is it becomes very obvious that this is the predator's mind, or so I think. The reptilian brain is in control of the Basic Emotions (lower emotional center?) which covers jealousy, lust, fear, anger, hate.....all of the things that keep us locked into a continuing cycle of mechanicalness, unless we become aware of it and try to awaken and overcome this primitive brain and its fear-driven ways.
At least that's my take on it at this time.
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
When considering whether or not Icke is conscious of the purpose he fulfills with his disinformation, for me the most highly suspicious thing is that a seemingly intelligent man does not seem to consider or address the fact that his books are WIDELY available throughout the high street shops in the UK.
When considering whether or not Icke is conscious of the purpose he fulfills with his disinformation, for me the most highly suspicious thing is that a seemingly intelligent man does not seem to consider or address the fact that his books are WIDELY available throughout the high street shops in the UK.
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
Also during the 90's Icke seemed to have almost saturation coverage by the UK media. Would this have happened had he really been a threat to the PTB? It reminds somewhat of the widespread coverage Alex Jones is now getting in some of the US mainstream media. I think the pair of them would only get this kind of exposure, if they were not really a threat and that they and their followers are being led into dead ends or in the case of Jones' followers in particular down a dangerous confrontational path with the US government. I think somewhere in Political Ponerology there's something about certain types ( Spellbinders?) who begin as being opposed to the political set up but who subsequently change sides when a fully mature pathocracy finally emerges. It may be interesting to see if this happens with Jones if the US lurches into,say, a far right Christian Theocracy (i.e. a Pathocracy - with the Christian sheen just being the masking ideology). I can well imagine him ending up being spokesperson or spellbinder for such a government.
Returning to Icke and his 'son of God' episode remember this somewhat similar recent instance of the ex-MI5 operative (or supposedly so) David Shayler who came foward and spilt the beans on some of the activities of British Intelligence. A little while later he also claimed to be the 'son of god'
thereby bringing into disrepute anything he had earlier said in the eyes of many people (which may have been the intention all along).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474364/Im-God-says-renegade-spy-David-Shayler.html
Ben said:
Also during the 90's Icke seemed to have almost saturation coverage by the UK media. Would this have happened had he really been a threat to the PTB? It reminds somewhat of the widespread coverage Alex Jones is now getting in some of the US mainstream media. I think the pair of them would only get this kind of exposure, if they were not really a threat and that they and their followers are being led into dead ends or in the case of Jones' followers in particular down a dangerous confrontational path with the US government. I think somewhere in Political Ponerology there's something about certain types ( Spellbinders?) who begin as being opposed to the political set up but who subsequently change sides when a fully mature pathocracy finally emerges. It may be interesting to see if this happens with Jones if the US lurches into,say, a far right Christian Theocracy (i.e. a Pathocracy - with the Christian sheen just being the masking ideology). I can well imagine him ending up being spokesperson or spellbinder for such a government.
Returning to Icke and his 'son of God' episode remember this somewhat similar recent instance of the ex-MI5 operative (or supposedly so) David Shayler who came foward and spilt the beans on some of the activities of British Intelligence. A little while later he also claimed to be the 'son of god'
thereby bringing into disrepute anything he had earlier said in the eyes of many people (which may have been the intention all along).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474364/Im-God-says-renegade-spy-David-Shayler.html
Argonaut
Jedi Master
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
Ok, read these two excerpts....
[quote author=Wikipedia]
Icke was a well-known BBC television sports presenter and spokesman for the British Green Party, when at the age of 38, he had an encounter with a psychic who told him he was a healer and had been placed on Earth for a purpose. In April 1991, he announced on the BBC's Terry Wogan show that he was the son of God—though he argued later he had been misunderstood—and predicted that the world would soon be devastated by tidal waves and earthquakes. The show changed his life, turning him practically overnight from a respected household name into an object of public ridicule.
[/quote]
[quote author=MailOnline]
Mr Shayler spent years on the run after exposing alleged wrongdoing at the heart of the Secret Service, including a claim that MI6 was involved in a failed assassination attempt on Libyan leader Colonel Gaddafi.
Eventually he returned to Britain voluntarily and was sentenced to six months in jail in 2002.
Since then, he has made ends meet giving speeches to conspiracy theorists.
Last night, in an interview with More4 News, Mr Shayler made the astonishing claim that he had seen a psychic who he believes channelled the spirit of Mary Magdalene and anointed him as the Messiah.
He told the programme: "Suddenly my whole life made sense.
"I felt a sense of peace, I suddenly realised why it had been how it had - why I seem to get such a strange deal from the universe, when I seem to be trying to tell the truth about everything."
[/quote]
Also note the last sentence, which shows incredible naivete. An intelligent former Secret Service agent should understand that telling the truth can have serious repercussions. Yet the only sensible conclusion for Shayler is "I must be the Messiah?" It seems like something was done to him when he met that "psychic." The fact that David Icke's path began with an identical psychic encounter is highly suspicious.
treesparrow said:
Ok, read these two excerpts....
[quote author=Wikipedia]
Icke was a well-known BBC television sports presenter and spokesman for the British Green Party, when at the age of 38, he had an encounter with a psychic who told him he was a healer and had been placed on Earth for a purpose. In April 1991, he announced on the BBC's Terry Wogan show that he was the son of God—though he argued later he had been misunderstood—and predicted that the world would soon be devastated by tidal waves and earthquakes. The show changed his life, turning him practically overnight from a respected household name into an object of public ridicule.
[/quote]
[quote author=MailOnline]
Mr Shayler spent years on the run after exposing alleged wrongdoing at the heart of the Secret Service, including a claim that MI6 was involved in a failed assassination attempt on Libyan leader Colonel Gaddafi.
Eventually he returned to Britain voluntarily and was sentenced to six months in jail in 2002.
Since then, he has made ends meet giving speeches to conspiracy theorists.
Last night, in an interview with More4 News, Mr Shayler made the astonishing claim that he had seen a psychic who he believes channelled the spirit of Mary Magdalene and anointed him as the Messiah.
He told the programme: "Suddenly my whole life made sense.
"I felt a sense of peace, I suddenly realised why it had been how it had - why I seem to get such a strange deal from the universe, when I seem to be trying to tell the truth about everything."
[/quote]
Also note the last sentence, which shows incredible naivete. An intelligent former Secret Service agent should understand that telling the truth can have serious repercussions. Yet the only sensible conclusion for Shayler is "I must be the Messiah?" It seems like something was done to him when he met that "psychic." The fact that David Icke's path began with an identical psychic encounter is highly suspicious.
shijing
The Living Force
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
I was actually just wondering yesterday about Icke and Greenbauming. I thought about the possibility that things may have started for Icke even before the psychic incident, since there was that one day at the bookshop (according to his own account) where he lost control of his own body and essentially got walked over to the shelf where the psychic's book was sitting. Is it possible that Icke may have been targeted, even perhaps as a child, with mind-programming that included a special trigger that this psychic knew how to set off? Did he even know about the feeling of the spiderweb descending on the face from anywhere else besides that psychic's own book (I've never heard of it, but I'm not that widely read in the psychic genre)? It is already troubling that several parts of this story involve the violation of Icke's free will, and I wonder if there are core ideas of his that have been implanted that he is unaware of, and that he wouldn't really be able to distinguish from messages from his 'higher self'. He describes his awkwardness on the Wogan show as being due largely to the fact that he was recovering from a 'kundalini experience' and still disoriented -- something else that could have another explanation.
Alderpax said:
I was actually just wondering yesterday about Icke and Greenbauming. I thought about the possibility that things may have started for Icke even before the psychic incident, since there was that one day at the bookshop (according to his own account) where he lost control of his own body and essentially got walked over to the shelf where the psychic's book was sitting. Is it possible that Icke may have been targeted, even perhaps as a child, with mind-programming that included a special trigger that this psychic knew how to set off? Did he even know about the feeling of the spiderweb descending on the face from anywhere else besides that psychic's own book (I've never heard of it, but I'm not that widely read in the psychic genre)? It is already troubling that several parts of this story involve the violation of Icke's free will, and I wonder if there are core ideas of his that have been implanted that he is unaware of, and that he wouldn't really be able to distinguish from messages from his 'higher self'. He describes his awkwardness on the Wogan show as being due largely to the fact that he was recovering from a 'kundalini experience' and still disoriented -- something else that could have another explanation.
bedower
Jedi Master
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
Only slightly off-topic, osit.
Here's something that may go some way towards explaining what might have happened.
It's from an article about what happened to David Shayler here : _http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=11155
I'm not too well up on David Icke, although I followed a link to his site to read an article about the Rothschilds I haven't read any of his books, so this thread has been very interesting and informative. After reading it, I'm glad I found the Cass site first.
Only slightly off-topic, osit.
Here's something that may go some way towards explaining what might have happened.
It's from an article about what happened to David Shayler here : _http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=11155
I'm not too well up on David Icke, although I followed a link to his site to read an article about the Rothschilds I haven't read any of his books, so this thread has been very interesting and informative. After reading it, I'm glad I found the Cass site first.
Argonaut
Jedi Master
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
This could be, but it's also possible that the psychic (Betty Shine) had no knowledge of what was happening. Whatever the case, this stuff looks very incriminating. All of the high strangeness surrounding the launch of Icke's career, coupled with the free will violation, points to it being engineered by 4D STS. Icke has said that he interprets "synchronicities" as proof that he's on the right track, which is a very bad sign. And he can be unbelievably naive and gullible, just like Shayler. His theories are largely derived from the theories of others. As Laura said, he's done no research of his own. The only original ideas in Icke's books come from people like: Brian Desborough, the aerospace engineer who supplied much (most?) of the info and framework for Icke's books... Arizona Wilder, an extremely questionable source introduced to Icke through Desborough (I found some things about her which I'll put in a separate post)... And then there's Credo Mutwa, a zulu shaman who relays myths which Icke accepts as literal history. Mutwa claims to have been abducted multiple times and allegedly had a device inserted into his nasal cavity, so he could easily be a programmed tool. All of this is a pretty shaky foundation for the stuff Icke claims.
shijing said:
This could be, but it's also possible that the psychic (Betty Shine) had no knowledge of what was happening. Whatever the case, this stuff looks very incriminating. All of the high strangeness surrounding the launch of Icke's career, coupled with the free will violation, points to it being engineered by 4D STS. Icke has said that he interprets "synchronicities" as proof that he's on the right track, which is a very bad sign. And he can be unbelievably naive and gullible, just like Shayler. His theories are largely derived from the theories of others. As Laura said, he's done no research of his own. The only original ideas in Icke's books come from people like: Brian Desborough, the aerospace engineer who supplied much (most?) of the info and framework for Icke's books... Arizona Wilder, an extremely questionable source introduced to Icke through Desborough (I found some things about her which I'll put in a separate post)... And then there's Credo Mutwa, a zulu shaman who relays myths which Icke accepts as literal history. Mutwa claims to have been abducted multiple times and allegedly had a device inserted into his nasal cavity, so he could easily be a programmed tool. All of this is a pretty shaky foundation for the stuff Icke claims.
Argonaut
Jedi Master
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
Arizona Wilder
I found this article about Arizona Wilder (aka Jennifer Greene). It was written by Ivan Fraser, a man who helped Icke with his book The Biggest Secret while it was in the draft stage. The full article is at _http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=54, but I'll include some excerpts here.
[quote author=Ivan Fraser]
My own role in the Biggest Secret saga was that I was asked by David to help him check spelling and offer any further information to his initial draft of the book. It was following my input that David was introduced to Arizona and heard her revelations, which subsequently became a focal point within the book and used as ‘evidence’ to support various themes outlined therein.
Having discussed my concerns with David’s wife and having sent David e-mails outlining my concerns over errors in his book and a feeling I have that he has been set up with misinformation and been the target of psychic manipulation, over a period from before publication to very recently (September 1999), and as yet having absolutely no feedback from David about any of the major concerns, I decided to publish my findings at the David Icke website forum.
Consequently, I was banned from attending that forum by David Icke.
[...]
David stated that he saw his encounter with AW as an amazing synchronicity which endorsed his work in his latest book. How could she have known all of this stuff which tallied so exactly with TBS? Well, I believe I am not as naïve as David, and I know exactly how she could have known. He was passing copies of the book via post to me and others for editing. It was on computer. Both are simple to access by Intelligence people. We had also spoken over the phone about the reptilian issue. In fact I am shocked that David does not see this as a possibility himself.
This brings I another character who is pivotal to the entire Biggest Secret thesis. It was a contact of David’s named Brian Desborough who introduced Arizona to David. Brian is mentioned as a source for a great deal of information in the book, having supplied most of the material upon which David based his idea that Martians came to Earth and founded the Aryan race which the reptilians used as a vehicle to overtake the planet. Brian is also the source of much of the information David had compiled on the Babylonian world, its myths and how they fed into the sinister secret societies.
It was Brian Desborough, a scientist and researcher who had worked for several aerospace companies, who was also looking at the draft copy of the Biggest Secret at the same time as myself; i.e. before David met Arizona Wilder. Therefore the fact that Brian Desborough may be responsible for fundamentally leading the direction of David’s research, if not planting much of the basis of the book in David’s mind, is obvious. But then to be the same person responsible for giving him a so-called eye-witness to testify to the verity of that information is highly suspicious. Brian also writes articles on mind control and seems very knowledgeable on the subject. Is it possible that he could be directly involved in some way that we are not being told about? Cathy O’Brien testifies to having been taken to military aerospace locations and NASA bases for trauma-based programming.
David met AW and interviewed her for about 2 hours. Some of the questions were quite leading, but her testimony revealed an awful lot if you know what you are looking for. She did indeed endorse a great deal of David’s own theses; that is other people’s theses (again including many of Desborough’s) which David has agreed with. So closely, in fact, you would almost think she had already read the book - or had been given the information beforehand!
[...]
As I said, her testimony tallied so well with David’s that I can see how he was so impressed. He has always stated that he works on cross-referencing testimonies and ‘synchronicities’ as proof. Well, this time I think the Intelligence people took advantage of that one!
[...]
Then came some obvious bloopers. Having claimed to have been a multiple, she also states she forgets certain names of people. Multiples have photographic memory and perfect recall (see Cathy O’Brien’s testimonies). This memory lapse does not happen in recovered multiples.
Her facts were either regularly wrong, or so full of spin that she was hardly credible. Other information is impossible for anyone to verify, conveniently.
[...]
She states that the royal lizards can’t stay in human form at the scent of blood and transform and go crazy, ripping into their victims. And in all those years nobody has ever noticed this when they have cut themselves, been around blood, menstruating women etc. Considering they are so public, there is no way they have never been in the vicinity of blood. No signs there though either.
I thought, ‘this is just too ridiculous for words. David how the hell are you allowing this nonsense to influence you?’
[...]
As I had been a nurse for 9 years, I am quite aware of body language and communication. What I was seeing with AW was someone who was far too inexpressive with her hands and expressions. She seemed to be deliberately avoiding any kind of body language in case she gave the game away.
I also know a genuine multiple who HAS performed satanic ritual called Patti and whom I had introduced David to years ago, setting him off on the track of this whole Satanic thing. He refers to her in his books ‘I Am Me, I Am Free’ and ‘The Biggest Secret’ as ‘a contact from Darlington’. I know this woman well and am accustomed to her body language and how she flips between personalities and how she displays quite notable body language if you know what you are looking for. I also have interviewed her priest (an exorcist) and her ex-Harley Street therapist and discussed this subject at length. And I have spoken to Cathy O’Brien and Mark Philips about this, albeit briefly.
To me, AW was not displaying what I expected in terms of body language. Everything I saw told me she was hiding something.
So I contacted the aforementioned expert; a professional therapist, specialising in multiples and victims of abuse, including those from government level paedophile circles. I had introduced her to David a couple of years ago and he mentions her in TBS. She looked at the video and agreed with my analysis. AW was not a multiple, nor seems to have ever been one. Her body language did not reveal this and suggested that she was deliberately lying and trying to keep from revealing this. She also has grave concerns about David, his health, his reptilian thesis, and that he may be under a great deal of pressure and psychic attack from those trying to pervert his work. She agreed that what I suspected was the more likely case - AW is a deliberate set up and her testimony is absolutely not to be trusted.
[...]
So I phoned Linda Icke. I told her of my concerns. As well as my concerns over David’s historical inaccuracies, lack of occult understanding, and flaws in his reptilian thesis. I said I was concerned that he had stated on radio that he was unusually drained of energy and had been ill for a while. She agreed I may be right and said that David has to face his own mistakes and defend himself in his own way.
Amazingly, when I told her what had transpired over the video and what I had looked into, she told me that David doesn’t actually trust AW!!!! ‘He’s the first to say "you can’t trust her,"’ she said!!!
So why is he selling a 2-hour interview with the woman?!
Why is he accepting her testimony at all?
Why has he refashioned so much of his work around her claims?
If it hadn’t been for her, the text would be far less sensational, less risible and have a far more balanced analysis of the occult.
This single woman has so overshadowed the real information in TBS that I no longer am able to trust a lot of it simply on David’s say so. I no longer trust David’s previously excellent antenna for getting to the truth.
Has Wilder also done something to David to lower his guard and turn him around? He certainly does not seem to me to be the same man he was. And that is what I am hearing time and time again from other people too.
[/quote]
Fraser then goes on to talk about shaman Credo Mutwa, and how there may be credibility issues with him as well.
In the interest of balance, there is an opposing account of Ivan Fraser being banned from Icke's forum. Icke himself says:
[quote author=David Icke]
Two astonishing people and their supporters invited me to speak in Ottawa, Toronto, and Windsor in Canada in the week starting Saturday, October 2nd. In the weeks leading up to this they were subjected to unbelievable pressure from the Anti-Defamation League (an Illuminati front at the peak of its pyramid) to cancel the events. They refused and the pressure was turned up and up. The ADL dubbed me "anti-Jewish" which anyone reading my books or hearing my talks will know to be the ultimate fantasy.
The fact that a guy called Ivan Fraser was writing on the website forum in this same period about his view of a fundamental Jewish connection to the conspiracy (nothing whatsover to do with me and not my view) was also used as "evidence" that I was "anti-semitic".
[/quote]
Original content here: _http://www.greatdreams.com/icke.htm
And the following is from Jocelyn Savage, webmaster for the Hidden Mysteries site. Her husband is the webmaster for davidicke.com. Savage is responding here to a message from someone named Rixon.
[quote author=Jocelyn Savage]
[quote author=Rixon]
: A while back Ivan Fraser, who formerly supplied Icke with
: information and perspectives, was thrown off David's web
: site forum; the web site forum of the man billed as
: "the most controversial speaker in the world."
: Now I didn't visit the forum but Ivan tells me he began to
: openly question many of Icke's assertions. He also tells me
: that shortly prior to being barred Jocelyn Savage called
: for him to be ...HANGED!!!
[/quote]
That is a ridiculous thing to say and anybody that knows me - or LIVED through Ivan on the forum KNOWS that a ridiculous statement.
That is about what I would expect of Ivan - he's another one that has proven himself capable of hearsay and unfounded allegations. So - that kind of allegation is about par for his tiny little course.
Now... Rixon - instead of implicating youself in false slander by repeating hearsay, why don't you ask Ivan if he could POSSIBLY prove such an outlandish statement as that.
Now... how about this for an interesting twist to the insanity of that allegation. Ivan signed his last couple of letters to me "Love, Ivan".
Go figure.
[/quote]
Original content here: _http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/8817
So Ivan vs. David is one man's word against the other, unless further info can be found to clarify. Still, the stuff in Ivan's article makes a lot of sense.
While looking for info on Wilder, I also came across an offhand mention (on the Fortean Times forum) of how "Arizona Wilder" is strikingly similar to "Montana Wildhack," the name of a character from Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five. So I went to Wikipedia and found this:
[quote author=Wikipedia]
In Slaughterhouse-Five, Tralfamadore is the home to beings who exist in all times simultaneously, and are thus privy to knowledge of future events, including the destruction of the universe at the hands of a Tralfamadorian test pilot. They kidnap Billy Pilgrim, the protagonist of the novel, and place him in a zoo on Tralfamadore with Montana Wildhack, an actress in pornographic films.
[/quote]
The book also describes the Tralfamadorians as "fourth dimensional" beings (due to their existence outside of time), reminiscent of Icke's claim that the reptilians dwell in the "lower fourth dimension." Vonnegut includes Tralfamadore in other novels too, although the details change. This description from his book Hocus Pocus is interesting:
[quote author=Wikipedia]
In Hocus Pocus, Tralfamadore is the planet nearest to where ancient multi-dimensional beings meet that supposedly control all aspects of human life including social affairs and politics. The actual Tralfamadorians are said to have too much of a sense of humor to be affected by the beings, unlike humans. Their exploits are chronicled in The Protocols of the Elders of Tralfamadore (an overt reference to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion), which is published serially in a pornographic magazine called Black Garterbelt.
[/quote]
So it seems that the persona of "Arizona Wilder" may be a deliberate creation, with her name derived from "Montana Wildhack" as a sort of inside joke. Which reminds me of this from the Aug 2001 C's session:
[quote author=August 2001 session]
Q: Do they actually have, like, some place on the planet where these guys read science fiction books and get these really crazy theories and stories that they put together with sort of fiendish glee, and then convert them via computer into the programming code that gets beamed out into people's heads, while they sit there and just - you know - fall down on the floor laughing at what they have just done? I mean, is this possibly something that is going on?
A: Yes.
[/quote]
[EDIT: Added underscores in front of urls so they're not active links]
Arizona Wilder
I found this article about Arizona Wilder (aka Jennifer Greene). It was written by Ivan Fraser, a man who helped Icke with his book The Biggest Secret while it was in the draft stage. The full article is at _http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=54, but I'll include some excerpts here.
[quote author=Ivan Fraser]
My own role in the Biggest Secret saga was that I was asked by David to help him check spelling and offer any further information to his initial draft of the book. It was following my input that David was introduced to Arizona and heard her revelations, which subsequently became a focal point within the book and used as ‘evidence’ to support various themes outlined therein.
Having discussed my concerns with David’s wife and having sent David e-mails outlining my concerns over errors in his book and a feeling I have that he has been set up with misinformation and been the target of psychic manipulation, over a period from before publication to very recently (September 1999), and as yet having absolutely no feedback from David about any of the major concerns, I decided to publish my findings at the David Icke website forum.
Consequently, I was banned from attending that forum by David Icke.
[...]
David stated that he saw his encounter with AW as an amazing synchronicity which endorsed his work in his latest book. How could she have known all of this stuff which tallied so exactly with TBS? Well, I believe I am not as naïve as David, and I know exactly how she could have known. He was passing copies of the book via post to me and others for editing. It was on computer. Both are simple to access by Intelligence people. We had also spoken over the phone about the reptilian issue. In fact I am shocked that David does not see this as a possibility himself.
This brings I another character who is pivotal to the entire Biggest Secret thesis. It was a contact of David’s named Brian Desborough who introduced Arizona to David. Brian is mentioned as a source for a great deal of information in the book, having supplied most of the material upon which David based his idea that Martians came to Earth and founded the Aryan race which the reptilians used as a vehicle to overtake the planet. Brian is also the source of much of the information David had compiled on the Babylonian world, its myths and how they fed into the sinister secret societies.
It was Brian Desborough, a scientist and researcher who had worked for several aerospace companies, who was also looking at the draft copy of the Biggest Secret at the same time as myself; i.e. before David met Arizona Wilder. Therefore the fact that Brian Desborough may be responsible for fundamentally leading the direction of David’s research, if not planting much of the basis of the book in David’s mind, is obvious. But then to be the same person responsible for giving him a so-called eye-witness to testify to the verity of that information is highly suspicious. Brian also writes articles on mind control and seems very knowledgeable on the subject. Is it possible that he could be directly involved in some way that we are not being told about? Cathy O’Brien testifies to having been taken to military aerospace locations and NASA bases for trauma-based programming.
David met AW and interviewed her for about 2 hours. Some of the questions were quite leading, but her testimony revealed an awful lot if you know what you are looking for. She did indeed endorse a great deal of David’s own theses; that is other people’s theses (again including many of Desborough’s) which David has agreed with. So closely, in fact, you would almost think she had already read the book - or had been given the information beforehand!
[...]
As I said, her testimony tallied so well with David’s that I can see how he was so impressed. He has always stated that he works on cross-referencing testimonies and ‘synchronicities’ as proof. Well, this time I think the Intelligence people took advantage of that one!
[...]
Then came some obvious bloopers. Having claimed to have been a multiple, she also states she forgets certain names of people. Multiples have photographic memory and perfect recall (see Cathy O’Brien’s testimonies). This memory lapse does not happen in recovered multiples.
Her facts were either regularly wrong, or so full of spin that she was hardly credible. Other information is impossible for anyone to verify, conveniently.
[...]
She states that the royal lizards can’t stay in human form at the scent of blood and transform and go crazy, ripping into their victims. And in all those years nobody has ever noticed this when they have cut themselves, been around blood, menstruating women etc. Considering they are so public, there is no way they have never been in the vicinity of blood. No signs there though either.
I thought, ‘this is just too ridiculous for words. David how the hell are you allowing this nonsense to influence you?’
[...]
As I had been a nurse for 9 years, I am quite aware of body language and communication. What I was seeing with AW was someone who was far too inexpressive with her hands and expressions. She seemed to be deliberately avoiding any kind of body language in case she gave the game away.
I also know a genuine multiple who HAS performed satanic ritual called Patti and whom I had introduced David to years ago, setting him off on the track of this whole Satanic thing. He refers to her in his books ‘I Am Me, I Am Free’ and ‘The Biggest Secret’ as ‘a contact from Darlington’. I know this woman well and am accustomed to her body language and how she flips between personalities and how she displays quite notable body language if you know what you are looking for. I also have interviewed her priest (an exorcist) and her ex-Harley Street therapist and discussed this subject at length. And I have spoken to Cathy O’Brien and Mark Philips about this, albeit briefly.
To me, AW was not displaying what I expected in terms of body language. Everything I saw told me she was hiding something.
So I contacted the aforementioned expert; a professional therapist, specialising in multiples and victims of abuse, including those from government level paedophile circles. I had introduced her to David a couple of years ago and he mentions her in TBS. She looked at the video and agreed with my analysis. AW was not a multiple, nor seems to have ever been one. Her body language did not reveal this and suggested that she was deliberately lying and trying to keep from revealing this. She also has grave concerns about David, his health, his reptilian thesis, and that he may be under a great deal of pressure and psychic attack from those trying to pervert his work. She agreed that what I suspected was the more likely case - AW is a deliberate set up and her testimony is absolutely not to be trusted.
[...]
So I phoned Linda Icke. I told her of my concerns. As well as my concerns over David’s historical inaccuracies, lack of occult understanding, and flaws in his reptilian thesis. I said I was concerned that he had stated on radio that he was unusually drained of energy and had been ill for a while. She agreed I may be right and said that David has to face his own mistakes and defend himself in his own way.
Amazingly, when I told her what had transpired over the video and what I had looked into, she told me that David doesn’t actually trust AW!!!! ‘He’s the first to say "you can’t trust her,"’ she said!!!
So why is he selling a 2-hour interview with the woman?!
Why is he accepting her testimony at all?
Why has he refashioned so much of his work around her claims?
If it hadn’t been for her, the text would be far less sensational, less risible and have a far more balanced analysis of the occult.
This single woman has so overshadowed the real information in TBS that I no longer am able to trust a lot of it simply on David’s say so. I no longer trust David’s previously excellent antenna for getting to the truth.
Has Wilder also done something to David to lower his guard and turn him around? He certainly does not seem to me to be the same man he was. And that is what I am hearing time and time again from other people too.
[/quote]
Fraser then goes on to talk about shaman Credo Mutwa, and how there may be credibility issues with him as well.
In the interest of balance, there is an opposing account of Ivan Fraser being banned from Icke's forum. Icke himself says:
[quote author=David Icke]
Two astonishing people and their supporters invited me to speak in Ottawa, Toronto, and Windsor in Canada in the week starting Saturday, October 2nd. In the weeks leading up to this they were subjected to unbelievable pressure from the Anti-Defamation League (an Illuminati front at the peak of its pyramid) to cancel the events. They refused and the pressure was turned up and up. The ADL dubbed me "anti-Jewish" which anyone reading my books or hearing my talks will know to be the ultimate fantasy.
The fact that a guy called Ivan Fraser was writing on the website forum in this same period about his view of a fundamental Jewish connection to the conspiracy (nothing whatsover to do with me and not my view) was also used as "evidence" that I was "anti-semitic".
[/quote]
Original content here: _http://www.greatdreams.com/icke.htm
And the following is from Jocelyn Savage, webmaster for the Hidden Mysteries site. Her husband is the webmaster for davidicke.com. Savage is responding here to a message from someone named Rixon.
[quote author=Jocelyn Savage]
[quote author=Rixon]
: A while back Ivan Fraser, who formerly supplied Icke with
: information and perspectives, was thrown off David's web
: site forum; the web site forum of the man billed as
: "the most controversial speaker in the world."
: Now I didn't visit the forum but Ivan tells me he began to
: openly question many of Icke's assertions. He also tells me
: that shortly prior to being barred Jocelyn Savage called
: for him to be ...HANGED!!!
[/quote]
That is a ridiculous thing to say and anybody that knows me - or LIVED through Ivan on the forum KNOWS that a ridiculous statement.
That is about what I would expect of Ivan - he's another one that has proven himself capable of hearsay and unfounded allegations. So - that kind of allegation is about par for his tiny little course.
Now... Rixon - instead of implicating youself in false slander by repeating hearsay, why don't you ask Ivan if he could POSSIBLY prove such an outlandish statement as that.
Now... how about this for an interesting twist to the insanity of that allegation. Ivan signed his last couple of letters to me "Love, Ivan".
Go figure.
[/quote]
Original content here: _http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi/noframes/read/8817
So Ivan vs. David is one man's word against the other, unless further info can be found to clarify. Still, the stuff in Ivan's article makes a lot of sense.
While looking for info on Wilder, I also came across an offhand mention (on the Fortean Times forum) of how "Arizona Wilder" is strikingly similar to "Montana Wildhack," the name of a character from Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five. So I went to Wikipedia and found this:
[quote author=Wikipedia]
In Slaughterhouse-Five, Tralfamadore is the home to beings who exist in all times simultaneously, and are thus privy to knowledge of future events, including the destruction of the universe at the hands of a Tralfamadorian test pilot. They kidnap Billy Pilgrim, the protagonist of the novel, and place him in a zoo on Tralfamadore with Montana Wildhack, an actress in pornographic films.
[/quote]
The book also describes the Tralfamadorians as "fourth dimensional" beings (due to their existence outside of time), reminiscent of Icke's claim that the reptilians dwell in the "lower fourth dimension." Vonnegut includes Tralfamadore in other novels too, although the details change. This description from his book Hocus Pocus is interesting:
[quote author=Wikipedia]
In Hocus Pocus, Tralfamadore is the planet nearest to where ancient multi-dimensional beings meet that supposedly control all aspects of human life including social affairs and politics. The actual Tralfamadorians are said to have too much of a sense of humor to be affected by the beings, unlike humans. Their exploits are chronicled in The Protocols of the Elders of Tralfamadore (an overt reference to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion), which is published serially in a pornographic magazine called Black Garterbelt.
[/quote]
So it seems that the persona of "Arizona Wilder" may be a deliberate creation, with her name derived from "Montana Wildhack" as a sort of inside joke. Which reminds me of this from the Aug 2001 C's session:
[quote author=August 2001 session]
Q: Do they actually have, like, some place on the planet where these guys read science fiction books and get these really crazy theories and stories that they put together with sort of fiendish glee, and then convert them via computer into the programming code that gets beamed out into people's heads, while they sit there and just - you know - fall down on the floor laughing at what they have just done? I mean, is this possibly something that is going on?
A: Yes.
[/quote]
[EDIT: Added underscores in front of urls so they're not active links]
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
Alderpax
Interesting back channel digging on this subject, including others here – very good! The Vonnegut reference was intriguing, marvellously-deviously possible even, and the C’s transcript, at the risk of under toning the significant of the issue…Priceless!
Rather subjectively speaking, as it balances on what has been read, interpreted or even just plain old OSIT feelings; either knowingly or not, Mr. Icke seems to be playing/played as a type of new age fringe provocateur for some socio/hyperdimensional end, like a default position either for the now, or awaited upon if needed and conveniently used for some ultimate design not yet to full fruition.
Alderpax
Interesting back channel digging on this subject, including others here – very good! The Vonnegut reference was intriguing, marvellously-deviously possible even, and the C’s transcript, at the risk of under toning the significant of the issue…Priceless!
Rather subjectively speaking, as it balances on what has been read, interpreted or even just plain old OSIT feelings; either knowingly or not, Mr. Icke seems to be playing/played as a type of new age fringe provocateur for some socio/hyperdimensional end, like a default position either for the now, or awaited upon if needed and conveniently used for some ultimate design not yet to full fruition.
shijing
The Living Force
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
His bibliography is really slipshod, actually, which you can see when you compare it with the corresponding index in any of his books. He mentions many more sources in the index that should be included in the bibliography as well -- so you really need to go to the index in order to track down all of them. In his most recent book, he omits Carlos Castaneda for example, even though he quotes from him twice. To his credit, he does list Prouty's The Secret Team in the actual bibliography.
Yes, I agree with Parallax, Alderpax -- you've run down some really good stuff here! The stuff about Brian Desborough is particularly interesting, as I have never really known anything about Icke's behind-the-scenes sources outside of Jordan Maxwell, whom I know he relies on for quite a bit of his symbology. I looked up Desborough's book just for fun, and it is interesting to go through the Table of Contents and the Index:
_http://www.amazon.com/They-Cast-Shadows-revisionist-technologies/dp/0595219578/ref=pd_sim_b_1
I think this particular quote from the Icke interview Alderpax links to above is rather ironic:
This may have been accurate in 1999 (the year of this interview). Last time I looked, however, Icke was on another sold-out world tour -- he is occasionally hassled at airports and so on, but the train is definitely rolling on!
I also keep marvelling at the symmetry between Icke's work and Laura's (including the info from the Cassiopaeans). Taken in isolation, none of these parallels would be that remarkable in the world of the paranormal and conspiracy, but taken as a cluster they are somewhat striking:
Laura: lizards, Icke: reptilians
Laura: cyclical time, Icke: time loops
Laura: Aryans from Kantek, Icke: Aryans from Mars
Both wrote (or co-authored in Laura's case) books dedicated to 9/11
Both focus on the Zionists as a nexus of geopolitical control and intrigue (and both have been slandered as anti-semites)
Both use the Matrix as a metaphor for 3D reality
...plus a number of more minor comparisons that are probably just artifacts of doing research into the paranormal and the control system. The most important part is the differences between them, of course, but it really makes one wonder if the Icke phenomenon may have not been engineered (however it happened, but I agree with Parallax in not discounting 4D involvement) to non-accidentally dovetail with the Cassiopaean material and Laura's work.
Edit: inserted the point above about Aryans
Laura said:
His bibliography is really slipshod, actually, which you can see when you compare it with the corresponding index in any of his books. He mentions many more sources in the index that should be included in the bibliography as well -- so you really need to go to the index in order to track down all of them. In his most recent book, he omits Carlos Castaneda for example, even though he quotes from him twice. To his credit, he does list Prouty's The Secret Team in the actual bibliography.
Parallax said:Alderpax
Interesting back channel digging on this subject, including others here – very good! The Vonnegut reference was intriguing, marvellously-deviously possible even, and the C’s transcript, at the risk of under toning the significant of the issue…Priceless!
Yes, I agree with Parallax, Alderpax -- you've run down some really good stuff here! The stuff about Brian Desborough is particularly interesting, as I have never really known anything about Icke's behind-the-scenes sources outside of Jordan Maxwell, whom I know he relies on for quite a bit of his symbology. I looked up Desborough's book just for fun, and it is interesting to go through the Table of Contents and the Index:
_http://www.amazon.com/They-Cast-Shadows-revisionist-technologies/dp/0595219578/ref=pd_sim_b_1
Parallax said:
I think this particular quote from the Icke interview Alderpax links to above is rather ironic:
This may have been accurate in 1999 (the year of this interview). Last time I looked, however, Icke was on another sold-out world tour -- he is occasionally hassled at airports and so on, but the train is definitely rolling on!
I also keep marvelling at the symmetry between Icke's work and Laura's (including the info from the Cassiopaeans). Taken in isolation, none of these parallels would be that remarkable in the world of the paranormal and conspiracy, but taken as a cluster they are somewhat striking:
Laura: lizards, Icke: reptilians
Laura: cyclical time, Icke: time loops
Laura: Aryans from Kantek, Icke: Aryans from Mars
Both wrote (or co-authored in Laura's case) books dedicated to 9/11
Both focus on the Zionists as a nexus of geopolitical control and intrigue (and both have been slandered as anti-semites)
Both use the Matrix as a metaphor for 3D reality
...plus a number of more minor comparisons that are probably just artifacts of doing research into the paranormal and the control system. The most important part is the differences between them, of course, but it really makes one wonder if the Icke phenomenon may have not been engineered (however it happened, but I agree with Parallax in not discounting 4D involvement) to non-accidentally dovetail with the Cassiopaean material and Laura's work.
Edit: inserted the point above about Aryans
Argonaut
Jedi Master
Re: About David Icke & James Redfield
Yes, these things are tantalizing "clues." By themselves they can look like coincidence, but just a quick look at Wikipedia gave a few pretty strong "coincidences." Slaughterhouse-Five has actually been sitting unread on my bookshelf for a few years; I think I'll pick it up and see if anything else pops out. I have nothing to lose - at the very least I'll be reading a good story. :)
[quote author=Parallax]
Rather subjectively speaking, as it balances on what has been read, interpreted or even just plain old OSIT feelings; either knowingly or not, Mr. Icke seems to be playing/played as a type of new age fringe provocateur for some socio/hyperdimensional end, like a default position either for the now, or awaited upon if needed and conveniently used for some ultimate design not yet to full fruition.
[/quote]
Indeed, it seems like there's a good case for both human AND 4D STS involvement. On the human side, this Brian Desborough guy is especially interesting - an aerospace researcher who's an expert on mind-control, essentially shaping the course of Icke's book by feeding him ideas... and THEN bringing him together with Arizona Wilder, who conveniently confirms it all? Hm...
Aside from these sources, Icke (or maybe Desborough) has apparently lifted entire concepts from other researchers without giving them credit. Regarding this, I found out that the "Rixon" whom Jocelyn Savage was responding to is Rixon Stuart, owner of "The Truth Seeker" website where the Ivan Fraser article appeared. In his article "David and Goliath (_http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=8956)," Stuart claims to have met Icke in person several times, and his impression from these encounters is that Icke "is a rampant egoist who is motivated by his egotism rather than by any desire for truth." This attitude could be sour grapes, rivalry, or similar; it's hard to say. But some of his other points in the article sound valid.
[quote author=Rixon Stuart]
...[David Icke] has taken the research of others, passed it off as his own, added a few of his own really absurd ideas – such as the notion of "shape-shifting reptilians" – and then reaped the rewards without acknowledging those who did the original research.
I personally know several researchers – including and an American genealogical investigator – to whom this has happened.
Now, it’s true, we are all on a learning curve and Icke is no exception. In fact it was one of my contacts who more than a decade ago first informed him about Adam Weishaupt; until then Icke had been blissfully ignorant of one of history’s most notorious conspirators.
However, it’s in the sphere of genuine spiritual knowledge that Icke is most noticeably lacking. Indeed in terms of spiritual development Icke is almost infantile. It shows in his egoism, his own ideas and even in his bloated physical countenance.
It also shows in his repeated references to “shape-shifting reptilians”, which reveals a profound ignorance of the nature and inhabitants of the various spiritual worlds that adjoin our own.
Like they say: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Contrary to what some of his defenders say however, Icke is not bringing the crimes of the ruling elite to wider public attention. This would be happening anyway for this truly is a time of revelation when much that was hidden is coming to light.
Icke is simply a Johnny come lately and the criminal elite must be thanking their gods for his appearance, for if anything he has helped further conceal their crimes.
For example, in his 1999 bestseller “The Biggest Secret” Icke devotes many pages to Princess Diana’s death. He makes a brief passing reference to Richard Tomlinson’s affidavit but spends pages and pages on the "reptilians" in the Royal House of Windsor.
According to Icke, Britain’s Royalty are all "shape-shifting reptilians" with an appetite for human flesh and Diana was another of their victims.
Purely by association this demolishes the integrity of credible witnesses like former intelligence officers David Shayler and Richard Tomlinson.
So it’s more than likely that covert operatives have used Icke’s egoism to inveigle and feed him these absurdities – thereby helping to discredit by association the genuine research of others he uses.
More than 25 years ago I was hearing much of what Icke now talks about – minus references to the reptilians – from an old South African tradesman, a simple builder who also happened to know Credo Mutwa. This was while David Icke was still a sports commentator and long before he had even met Credo Mutwa.
[/quote]
The thrust of this is that Icke makes this huge deal of being a "lone voice crying in the wilderness," yet he's standing on the backs of many who came before - and there are many others who are currently doing what Icke does, right down to the ineffective "New Age"-type solutions. Yet Icke fails to acknowledge many of them, even while adopting some of their ideas as his own. Since Brian Desborough seems to have virtually "created" David Icke as we know him today, maybe he's the one behind all of this; it's hard to say.
[EDIT: Added underscore in front of url so it's not an active link]
Parallax said:
Yes, these things are tantalizing "clues." By themselves they can look like coincidence, but just a quick look at Wikipedia gave a few pretty strong "coincidences." Slaughterhouse-Five has actually been sitting unread on my bookshelf for a few years; I think I'll pick it up and see if anything else pops out. I have nothing to lose - at the very least I'll be reading a good story. :)
[quote author=Parallax]
Rather subjectively speaking, as it balances on what has been read, interpreted or even just plain old OSIT feelings; either knowingly or not, Mr. Icke seems to be playing/played as a type of new age fringe provocateur for some socio/hyperdimensional end, like a default position either for the now, or awaited upon if needed and conveniently used for some ultimate design not yet to full fruition.
[/quote]
Indeed, it seems like there's a good case for both human AND 4D STS involvement. On the human side, this Brian Desborough guy is especially interesting - an aerospace researcher who's an expert on mind-control, essentially shaping the course of Icke's book by feeding him ideas... and THEN bringing him together with Arizona Wilder, who conveniently confirms it all? Hm...
Aside from these sources, Icke (or maybe Desborough) has apparently lifted entire concepts from other researchers without giving them credit. Regarding this, I found out that the "Rixon" whom Jocelyn Savage was responding to is Rixon Stuart, owner of "The Truth Seeker" website where the Ivan Fraser article appeared. In his article "David and Goliath (_http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=8956)," Stuart claims to have met Icke in person several times, and his impression from these encounters is that Icke "is a rampant egoist who is motivated by his egotism rather than by any desire for truth." This attitude could be sour grapes, rivalry, or similar; it's hard to say. But some of his other points in the article sound valid.
[quote author=Rixon Stuart]
...[David Icke] has taken the research of others, passed it off as his own, added a few of his own really absurd ideas – such as the notion of "shape-shifting reptilians" – and then reaped the rewards without acknowledging those who did the original research.
I personally know several researchers – including and an American genealogical investigator – to whom this has happened.
Now, it’s true, we are all on a learning curve and Icke is no exception. In fact it was one of my contacts who more than a decade ago first informed him about Adam Weishaupt; until then Icke had been blissfully ignorant of one of history’s most notorious conspirators.
However, it’s in the sphere of genuine spiritual knowledge that Icke is most noticeably lacking. Indeed in terms of spiritual development Icke is almost infantile. It shows in his egoism, his own ideas and even in his bloated physical countenance.
It also shows in his repeated references to “shape-shifting reptilians”, which reveals a profound ignorance of the nature and inhabitants of the various spiritual worlds that adjoin our own.
Like they say: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Contrary to what some of his defenders say however, Icke is not bringing the crimes of the ruling elite to wider public attention. This would be happening anyway for this truly is a time of revelation when much that was hidden is coming to light.
Icke is simply a Johnny come lately and the criminal elite must be thanking their gods for his appearance, for if anything he has helped further conceal their crimes.
For example, in his 1999 bestseller “The Biggest Secret” Icke devotes many pages to Princess Diana’s death. He makes a brief passing reference to Richard Tomlinson’s affidavit but spends pages and pages on the "reptilians" in the Royal House of Windsor.
According to Icke, Britain’s Royalty are all "shape-shifting reptilians" with an appetite for human flesh and Diana was another of their victims.
Purely by association this demolishes the integrity of credible witnesses like former intelligence officers David Shayler and Richard Tomlinson.
So it’s more than likely that covert operatives have used Icke’s egoism to inveigle and feed him these absurdities – thereby helping to discredit by association the genuine research of others he uses.
More than 25 years ago I was hearing much of what Icke now talks about – minus references to the reptilians – from an old South African tradesman, a simple builder who also happened to know Credo Mutwa. This was while David Icke was still a sports commentator and long before he had even met Credo Mutwa.
[/quote]
The thrust of this is that Icke makes this huge deal of being a "lone voice crying in the wilderness," yet he's standing on the backs of many who came before - and there are many others who are currently doing what Icke does, right down to the ineffective "New Age"-type solutions. Yet Icke fails to acknowledge many of them, even while adopting some of their ideas as his own. Since Brian Desborough seems to have virtually "created" David Icke as we know him today, maybe he's the one behind all of this; it's hard to say.
[EDIT: Added underscore in front of url so it's not an active link]
