About Lying, Illusion and the Predator's Mind

obyvatel

The Living Force
Bud said:
Regarding my personal sense of self, it felt sort of like I had seated somewhere. From this apparent vantage point, I saw something of "Bud" as a thought. A closed system thinker, so-to-speak. A bunch of little I's, thought loops - the whole works, sure - but even as a collection, or system, it was still a thought. A thought thinking thoughts. Sounds kind of silly doesn't it?

To me, it sounds like more intellectualization without a practical path for moving forward.

Bud, here are a few points for your consideration- take them fwiw

* We cannot see ourselves as others see us. This is where a network can be invaluable. For the network to help us, we do need to put trust in the network. You may want to reflect privately on the question of trust.

* What I have observed in your posts has been a general tendency to put much effort in writing kind of "airtight" posts which covers most bases and sacrifice clarity for what you may perceive as "completeness". Ana mentioned isolation and asked you imagine a wall between yourselves and others. I think your posts are sometimes indicative of this dynamic. Now one of the reasons for building "an airtight container" or a "wall" is for purpose of protection. You may want to consider the possibility of the over-intellectualization and philosophizing being a buffer that keeps you from accessing some deep-seated unpleasant emotions.

* If possible, you may also want to recapitulate what was going on with you at the time when you decided to change your forum handle from "Buddy" to "Bud". As "Bud", the general persona projected is that of a wise philosopher/teacher who tries hard to practice humility. As "Buddy" on the other hand, the persona projected was more an intellectually driven but open-minded seeker of knowledge. While a reliance on intellect is a common thread, the flavor is different between the two personalities.

* You have had some experiences of altered states which you have mentioned in some threads (like here ). You may want to to reflect on how much effect experiences like this has had on you and your present outlook. The Scale of Law described by Ibn al Arabi may be of relevance - or not ( link )

My 2 cents
 

Buddy

The Living Force
Ana said:
Bud, you may want to try to concentrate purely and simply on external consideration. Try to walk in others shoes, to see as they see, to think as the think and to feel as they do, so you can properly communicate with them.

I will from this point forward.

Ana said:
Nothing challenges our knowledge more than trying to communicate it externally considering, and if you dismiss the need for a cooperative and generous simplicity in order to communicate, you also lose the oportunity to learn more about yourself and your own ideas because, in "translating" we are reordering our minds.

I hadn't looked at it that way before.

Ana said:
Imagine if you will that there is a wall between you and others. You are trapped in your own mind, your own ideas, discoveries, epiphanies, insights without considering the state of mind of those you are trying to communicate with.

You're right.

Ana said:
We need to break that wall with all our strength Bud otherwise we are doomed to live in our little corner of the world alone.

Yes, you're right again.

Ana said:
See again Perceval's post:

Perceval said:
I think the singular point she was making was that Bud's post was a perfect example of how the 'predator's mind' functions. Technically, all of Bud's sentences made sense, but there was little or no useful point being made from the point of view of the average reader. As a result, the reader is left with a strange feeling of having read something without having gleaned any real information, and left somewhat confused, but also without being able to point to any problems of syntax. It was all intellect running on emotional energy, which the 'classical mindset' promotes by promoting the idea that intellectual deliberation will finally solve any problem. Perhaps the missing ingredient for discerning the objective truth about anything is 'emotional intelligence'.

I'm in 100% agreement with him until the last sentence. I need to look into 'emotional intelligence' and how it relates to "discerning the objective truth about anything" as he sees it.

Thanks, Ana.

---------------------------------------

obyvatel said:
Bud said:
Regarding my personal sense of self, it felt sort of like I had seated somewhere. From this apparent vantage point, I saw something of "Bud" as a thought. A closed system thinker, so-to-speak. A bunch of little I's, thought loops - the whole works, sure - but even as a collection, or system, it was still a thought. A thought thinking thoughts. Sounds kind of silly doesn't it?

To me, it sounds like more intellectualization without a practical path for moving forward.

You may be right.

obyvatel said:
Bud, here are a few points for your consideration- take them fwiw

* We cannot see ourselves as others see us. This is where a network can be invaluable. For the network to help us, we do need to put trust in the network. You may want to reflect privately on the question of trust.

There's no need for a private reflection on this. Since you brought it up, I will say that I understand your concern about "trust". Those few I trust without reservation already have my full legal name, address, ph. number (I think), main e-mail addresses, experiences I've had that I cannot make public, and probably anything else they want to know about me. As for the network in general though, I think I do have a trust relationship build in progress or I don't think I could justify public participation.


obyvatel said:
* If possible, you may also want to recapitulate what was going on with you at the time when you decided to change your forum handle from "Buddy" to "Bud".

Done. I didn't see it as particularly meaningful actually. I was pretty much at a point where I just felt a little change in myself as I indicated in that name-change thread and wanted a change of name to reflect it. It's not even very imaginative. Actually, I wanted a complete change to get totally away from "Buddy" since it's been my nickname since birth, but since I didn't feel a particular identification with anything else, I just shortened it. I know your comment is about more than just the name, but that's about all I can think of to add at the moment.


obyvatel said:
As "Bud", the general persona projected is that of a wise philosopher/teacher who tries hard to practice humility.

Geeze, that's kind of embarrassing. I can nip that in the bud. I guess I must simply meet y'all in person so you can get the rest of me as I'm speaking and add more data to your evaluation. Until then, I'll just make more use of my journal. I'm also realizing that I've had a bit of fear that for whatever reason I might not get to meet some of you, so on occasion, I've probably tried way too hard to give you a feel for who I am. I'm also realizing the limitations of the written word to accomplish this, though, not to mention the inappropriateness for this type of forum.


obyvatel said:
As "Buddy" on the other hand, the persona projected was more an intellectually driven but open-minded seeker of knowledge.

Looking back, it seems that any real knowledge I had back then didn't have as much depth then either. That persona would have debated anything so long as it was deeply believed in, regardless of how deeply it was understood. So, yes, there's been some changes with me. Hopefully they haven't all been bad.


obyvatel said:
* You have had some experiences of altered states which you have mentioned in some threads (like here ).

You could probably understand this a bit better if you knew what it's like to be someone somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum, to be ADD or just to be me as a hybrid somewhere on that latter continuum.

The main thing here, I think, is about how my self-monitor seems to work as I and others IRL see and explain it. The description you call "altered states" is about what the transition back and forth between losing my self-monitor and regaining it under certain circumstances feels like to me.

Sometimes I may become "addicted" to a chase like that circular thinking trap of philosophy I was involved with - an area I'm particularly fond of for some reason. At times like that, I can find myself so deeply involved, my self-monitor turns off and I forget what I'm there to do. I'll also forget that I formed the intention to "stay with it until I'm satisfied". That formulation alone (especially if it's made as a wordless intent and simply 'felt'), can be strong enough to power an 'addictive' loop that continues until I eventually break out of it.

How the original post on this thread is related to this I explain by saying: I was aware I was making a presentation to demonstrate the predator's mind. At the time, I was unaware of the possibility that the demonstration itself might be a demonstration of the predator's mind. Normally I would have that awareness of possibility. I was unaware of the possibility because the extra awareness that loops back to act as the over-viewer wasn't on at the time, OSIT. At least, this is how I understand it.

I hope this makes sense in terms other than pure, non-beneficial intellectualizing because if that is how its going to be perceived, I don't know how else to put it right now.

obyvatel said:
The Scale of Law described by Ibn al Arabi may be of relevance - or not...

I had no idea that a network could be equivalent to this idea of "The Scale of Law". I don't know how to thank you for bringing this to my attention.

I really feel the need to apologize for making it necessary for people to expend this much energy on me.
 

Al Today

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Hi Bud,
For some reason, I am impressed to bring up what I consider an important ingredient of my life. For me, sometimes I get all wrapped up within the situation, get too serious about the facts of a given matter and am able to obtain relief when I am able to enjoy the following:

http://www.helpguide.org/life/humor_laughter_health.htm

Humor is infectious. The sound of roaring laughter is far more contagious than any cough, sniffle, or sneeze. When laughter is shared, it binds people together and increases happiness and intimacy. In addition to the domino effect of joy and amusement, laughter also triggers healthy physical changes in the body. Humor and laughter strengthen your immune system, boost your energy, diminish pain, and protect you from the damaging effects of stress. Best of all, this priceless medicine is fun, free, and easy to use.

I hope not to be :offtopic:, but felt to bring this up...


edit: Spelling again, as usual... :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Miguel_Sanchez

The Living Force
This discussion is incredibly timely. Something changed in me several months ago that lead me to feel the need to write overly-verbosely. I got called into my director's office yesterday due to an unbelievably long email I wrote in response to a question a manager had sent to me.

I realized what I was doing was trying to cover every conceivable base in my response and I was driven by fear: fear of not being helpful, fear of misunderstandings and misinformation that I needed to correct, fear of not being seen sufficiently intelligent, the list goes on. In the end, I didn't accomplish any of my objectives as the email was too long for any busy person to read. This appears to have become a months long, if not years long pattern I have fallen into.

Something I noticed, upon reflection, was that after writing something excessively verbose, I found my attention short and energy low, so much so that I could not rework my writing to make it more brief. And yet I expect others to expend their energy to read what I wrote. This is obviously not being externally considerate and I can now see how it is also a form of feeding. I have convinced myself I am giving when, in fact, I am taking.

I offer this in case any of it might apply to you.

It seems to me, Bud, that you are knowledgeable, contemplative and intelligent but are living mostly in your head. It also appears that something changed in you when you changed your nick from Buddy to Bud. Something was driving you to shed this name you had since childhood. What was behind it? What was behind this need to reinvent yourself or change your identity? Why did you seem to shift to a more intellectual expression of yourself, which seems to have come at the expense of your emotion intelligence (OSIT)?

Gonzo
 

Lilou

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
I also noticed a distinct change in the flavor of your posts, Bud, when you changed your nickname from Buddy. You also changed your avatar. I have to admit, I sometimes find myself skipping over your posts in a thread and not reading them. They are very wordy and difficult to read. I did even wonder, if perhaps you would eventually unchain yourself from that wood post (see pic of avatar for Bud) and your posts would again become easy to read. It's as if you are suffering over your own suffering.

Perhaps reading back thru your own posts over the years would be a helpful exercise? I wish you luck, Bud.
Onwards and Upwards!
 

webglider

Dagobah Resident
quote from Bud:

You could probably understand this a bit better if you knew what it's like to be someone somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum, to be ADD or just to be me as a hybrid somewhere on that latter continuum.

I think that this is the heart of the matter, Bud. This is the cry for understanding that finally somehow got past your intellect and allowed itself to be expressed.

Do you trust this network to share what it is really like ..."to be someone somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum to be ADD or just to be me as a hybrid on that latter continuum"? I sense a great deal of pain and suffering here - and perhaps shame, not shame for what you have done, or who you are, but shame inflicted upon you by others who couldn't understand what it was like to
be you.

Do you realize how much you loved here? Once when you didn't post for awhile there was an entire thread made of expressions of concern that something had happened to you. Do you remember that?

You don't have to be overly brilliant or accomodating to be loved. My feeling is - and I could be wrong - is that all these words are being used as a shield so that you won't have to explore how you really feel.

In the preface to her book: Shame, The Power of Caring: Gershen Kaufman, Ph.D writes:

Expressions of shame become internalized through imagery. Internal images or scenes as Silvan Tomkins describes them, of shame-inducing events may come to govern further development. Scenes of shame come linked to each other partially via language, but they also can fuse together directly, thereby magnifying one another. Language further transforms scenes of shame creating both particular meanings about the self and distinct language patterns for reproducing shame, for continually remaking images of shame. Affect, imagery and language are the central processes shaping self and identity.

Your avatar depicts the image of a man tied to a post. Your posts right now are adding more rope to tie you more firmly to that from which you wish to break free.

The route to freedom, I'd like to suggest, is not through posts but through self-acceptance and the opening of the self to give and receive love.
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Lilou said:
I have to admit, I sometimes find myself skipping over your posts in a thread and not reading them. They are very wordy and difficult to read.

Bud, I have to admit that I nowadays often skip your posts too. They are just too "quantum" for me. I remember your "posting frenzy" as Buddy, after you joined the forum. There was excitement in the air reading your posts, so much enthusiasm! I hope you can find some of that again, in a clear coherent manner.
 

mada85

The Living Force
Lilou said:
I did even wonder, if perhaps you would eventually unchain yourself from that wood post (see pic of avatar for Bud) and your posts would again become easy to read. It's as if you are suffering over your own suffering.

Reading through this thread, Bud, a similar thought occurred to me. Your avatar is Ulysses, chained to the mast, right? Ah yes, it's from this painting by J W Waterhouse. This is a very potent symbol to have chosen for your avatar. On the same page we find:

A siren in Greek mythology was a creature half bird and half woman who lured sailors to destruction by the sweetness of her song. According to Homer there were two Sirens on an island in the western sea between Aeaea and the rocks of Scylla. Later the number was usually increased to three, and they were located on the west coast of Italy, near Naples. They were variously said to be the daughters of the sea god Phorcys or of the river god Achelous.

The Greek hero Odysseus (English: Ulysses), advised by the sorceress Circe, escaped the danger of their song by stopping the ears of his crew with wax so that they were deaf to the Sirens; yet he was able to hear the music and had himself tied to the mast so that he could not steer the ship out of course. Another story relates that when the Argonauts sailed that way, Orpheus sang so divinely that none of them listened to the Sirens. In later legend, after one or other of these failures the Sirens committed suicide. In art they appeared first as birds with the heads of women, later as women, sometimes winged, with bird legs.

The Sirens seem to have evolved from a primitive tale of the perils of early exploration combined with an Oriental image of a bird-woman. Anthropologists explain the Oriental image as a soul-bird--i.e., a winged ghost that stole the living to share its fate. In that respect the Sirens had affinities with the Harpies.

Were you trying to tell yourself something by your choice of avatar? Have you perhaps been lured by something like the sweetness of thought about thought for thought's sake? Assuming that in your avatar you are Ulysses, what does the mast represent? And the chains, the boat, and the sea?
 

transientP

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
bud,

if you feel you're 'too cerebral' lately, this has helped me before in such cases; listen to music that makes you emotional.
choose the bands / artists that you know you respond to emotionally.

seeking objectivity and truth are always important and are an ongoing process as life unfolds and evolves, but when there's no time for emotion or humor then there's a hole in the plan.
fwiw
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Buddy, (I prefer that - it's more friendly than "Bud"), I just want to chime in that I am very fond of the you I have come to know via this medium. I am thankful for your presence, and on the occasions when you make break-throughs, I get as excited as if I had done it myself.

Do take the help offered here to heart - people here really do want to know the real you, the friendly, helpful, unassuming, clever and witty guy who sparks through the often officious intellectualizations. Yeah, we know you can talk that jargon - so can I - but it's not really fun unless it is agreed between a few eggheads to play with words like a game. Otherwise, it is just obfuscation of meaning.

Yes, sometimes I take several paragraphs to explain something in simple terms that I could say in a sentence or two of really big and precise words, but who would get it? It would severely limit the enjoyment of the point not to mention the actual act of communication.
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
webglider said:
quote from Bud:

You could probably understand this a bit better if you knew what it's like to be someone somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum, to be ADD or just to be me as a hybrid somewhere on that latter continuum.

I think that this is the heart of the matter, Bud. This is the cry for understanding that finally somehow got past your intellect and allowed itself to be expressed.

I don't know that this is necessarily the case. Often, we identify with our personal challenges, taking them for 'us'. They aren't - and if we feed them with all this energy of identification, we never really know where they stop and we start. We know Bud can communicate clearly because he has in the past - when he's been reminded to and when he works on it. Then, he forgets himself and off he goes again. I think it really comes down to Bud putting in the effort to remember himself each and every time he posts - that is very difficult, but I think it's possible.
 

anart

A Disturbance in the Force
Laura said:
I am thankful for your presence, and on the occasions when you make break-throughs, I get as excited as if I had done it myself.

For the record, I feel the same way!
 

1984

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Aragorn said:
I remember your "posting frenzy" as Buddy, after you joined the forum. There was excitement in the air reading your posts, so much enthusiasm! I hope you can find some of that again, in a clear coherent manner.

Indeed - and I loved your 'goofy kid with the big glasses' avatar picture. :)
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Al Today said:
1984 said:
Indeed - and I loved your 'goofy kid with the big glasses' avatar picture. :)

Me Too.!.!.!

I dunno... I DID get used to it, but for me, it was disturbing. I like Odysseus better, frankly!
 
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