About Lying, Illusion and the Predator's Mind

[John G]

...seems to work a-typically due to my particular brain chemistry or configuration... That's it! No more unasked-for talk about 'me'.

I think the idea is that you like the rest of us likely have attributes that can be seen in lots of others. The label thing (whether you are into it or not) is likely related to things like the environment (including diet and stress as mentioned in that hsp forum link you gave) and things we are born with (like personality though maturity and health for our personalities can change). People with "feeling" personalities often have this kind of "thinking" (don't know for sure you have a "feeling" personality or this kind of "thinking" but just want to mention this general trait which is changeable):

Level-one thinking is inferior, developmentally speaking. The individual who has thinking as inferior is likely, as Von Franz notes, to speak in 'platitudes', be overly 'critical', or to become the victim of an 'idee fixe'. Thoughts are experienced as mere 'ideas', mental 'images' as opposed to hypothetical conditionals capable of mapping complex 'cause-effect' relationship. The 'laws' uncovered by more advanced forms of thinking are likely to be perceived as a threat to the freedom of the individual, associated with 'conditioning', and experienced as constraining and controlling.

 

[Buddy]

If you don't listen to all the "little things" in your friends lives that matter to them, how can you be their friend?

If they're already that kind of friend, then I already know the little things that matter to them and vice versa? But if just the routine social chatter that fills a vacuum, what do I have to offer them that they really want, except the same thing if there is no real substance to the relationship?

Another thing is that while we were growing up, we moved so many times, I got to a place where I couldn't stand the thought of leaving another bunch of friends, so I stopped making friends. That got me kind of messed up too.

 

[Guardian]

If they're already that kind of friend, then I already know the little things that matter to them and vice versa?

How, without listening to the "little things?" They do change on a day to day basis ya know?

But if just the routine social chatter that fills a vacuum, what do I have to offer them that they really want,

Well I usually get the answer to that from the "routine social chatter" A lot of the time, the answer is simply "my ear"

except the same thing if there is no real substance to the relationship?

What exactly to you consider "real substance?" Your friend has an ordinary day, and they share it with you. Why isn't that "real substance?"

 

[Buddy]

I'm sorry, Guardian, but I seem to be referring only to acquaintances (potential friends), where you seem to be talking about actual friends (meaning the friendship has already been made). I do have friendships like what you're talking about, but there are various levels of intimacy involved. And I've wanted to be best friends with some people who seemed only interested in superficial stuff, and I know some who want to latch onto me but they give me the creeps and I know many, many more people simply due to my line of work.

I was just reminded of what the C's said about how "the illusion is that there is separation." If this is true, as I suspect, then instead of me really talking about "other people" here, it appears that I am revealing little more than my own deep narcissistic wounding.

 

[Gimpy]

I'm sorry, Guardian, but I seem to be referring only to acquaintances (potential friends), where you seem to be talking about actual friends (meaning the friendship has already been made). I do have friendships like what you're talking about, but there are various levels of intimacy involved. And I've wanted to be best friends with some people who seemed only interested in superficial stuff, and I know some who want to latch onto me but they give me the creeps and I know many, many more people simply due to my line of work.

I was just reminded of what the C's said about how "the illusion is that there is separation." If this is true, as I suspect, then instead of me really talking about "other people" here, it appears that I am revealing little more than my own deep narcissistic wounding.

It sounds like you may need some quality EE time, Bud.

Do you set aside time each day to decompress from your job? Do you change clothes when you get home from work to help your mind let go of the work mindset?

Have you ever taken the time to look in a mirror and watch your body language?

Emotional people tend to be chronically open. Until you reach a time when you've accepted all that means, warts and all, you're going to be fighting a natural human tendency toward small talk. That's something that's hard wired into human beings....it goes all the way back to grooming bugs out of each others hair. :D

A quiet smile, a kind word, opening a door for someone....little actions that are done for other people help with this. You don't have to engage in 'small talk' for that.

It does not replace actual work on yourself, or becoming used to silence.

Emotional people need silence....have you made time for it? If not, its a place to start.

 

[anart]

I'm sorry, Guardian, but I seem to be referring only to acquaintances (potential friends), where you seem to be talking about actual friends (meaning the friendship has already been made). [...]
I was just reminded of what the C's said about how "the illusion is that there is separation." If this is true, as I suspect, then instead of me really talking about "other people" here, it appears that I am revealing little more than my own deep narcissistic wounding.

Yes, I think Guardian's point might revolve around the fact that in your description of how much you want a real connection with people, you are totally self-focused. You don't even mention what it is these other people want and how to give it to them - acquaintances or not. As long as you move through life focusing on what you don't get from others, you totally miss the fact that you can only get the things you 'want' by giving first. If you shift your focus away from what you so desperately want and toward what it is that others really want, a whole new world opens up.

One of the greatest realizations I've ever come to was when I realized, deeply, that - at the end of the day - it's not about me.

 

[Ðekel]

Buddy

i do this very often; when i find myself thinking about things i want / don't want, i stop and look around. if i'm alone at the time, i try to go out for a walk or engage in sports that aren't competitive.

when you stop to look around, just look. the point is not to judge what's going on around you, what people are doing etc', it's to observe objectively.

so let's say i'm at work, and i start thinking about something in the so called 'future', and i catch myself having attachments or anticipating certain things, or having preferences.. i stop.
look around.
breathe.
and go back to focusing on immediate tasks at hand instead of fantasizing.

i've been doing this for quite some time.
i now consider almost all thoughts about the future / past as fantasy.
i would like to stress the point that i'm not advocating not doing, rather doing with less anticipation. this mode can actually create a more joyful type of doing, that is less riddled with various stresses.

hope this helps in some way.

 

[Palinurus]

Like many others on here and IRL, I have always seen through the social ego with its meaningless babble and needs for ritual and stroking. As far back as I can remember, deep down I've wanted nothing but to simply, painlessly and instantly connect with people on a meaningful level with NONE of that hand-shaky, "hey, howya doing? How's your mama an 'em?, watch the game last night? Didja see Cal Petty make that long free-throw down the football field, ring the net, bounce off the goalie and knock out the pitcher?, why you look like that? Something wrong? Are you sick?"

This stuff is everywhere mind-numbing and every time I have to go through two days of psychobabble ritual before I can connect with someone on a serious, meaningful level just so I can say a meaningful heart-felt word to them, buy something at a 'convenience' store, ask a question about my car or share a bit of joy about anything at all, it can become quite painful to bear, and to bear witness to, in more ways than just one because neurologically and physiologically, I just don't naturally tolerate it well, that's all.

My "do it again" pleasure center seems to work a-typically due to my particular brain chemistry or configuration, so at times while I was growing up, avoiding social contact to avoid a bit of neurological or emotional pain while feeling a deep emotional need to connect was just part of my life and probably made me un-sane or whatever.

Emotional people tend to be chronically open. Until you reach a time when you've accepted all that means, warts and all, you're going to be fighting a natural human tendency toward small talk. That's something that's hard wired into human beings....it goes all the way back to grooming bugs out of each others hair.

A quiet smile, a kind word, opening a door for someone....little actions that are done for other people help with this. You don't have to engage in 'small talk' for that.

Small talk, little niceties, common courtesy - let alone real consideration - are indispensable features of a civilised society. They indicate to strangers that there is no fundamental underlying hostility innate in the one seeking contact, service or favors. It's comforting and eases, or even prevents tensions.

It's a sociological truism that lack of those niceties in public encounters forms a warning signal to indicate social cohesion is crumbling and crisis is looming. In psychological terms it signals ponerisation almost beyond repair. You don't need riot police atrocities to tell you that.

Although it might be a burden to someone like you to keep up this behavior as a facade indicating good will, you would be ill advised were we to strengthen you in your convictions about this and in any behavior in that direction. There is an old saying that states you have to be friendly to get any friends. That is to say, in order to have friends you have to be a friend first. It's an investment with uncertain returns.

Frankly, I think the attitude you're revealing seems rather elitist, rigid and hermitlike. No wonder if you would end up a recluse. I know, been there, done that, et cetera. It all boils down to a lack of external considering or maybe even low esteem for fellow humans. In short, it's a sign of prejudice and bias. No amount of narcissistic wounding could ever justify this attitude - subjectively nor objectively. It just seems you don't want to put in the effort because it's too costly for you while the returns are doubtful. That would be rather coldly calculating, wouldn't it. And besides that, you're far too much identifying with your own difficulties in this regard. A bit of detachment towards that and a bit more understanding of the circumstances of others would help you a long way in a different direction, I would think.

It's no good to be nice here and observe forum rules and common decency while posting, thinking the way you apparently do about 'lesser folks' outside this venue and in real life.

Sorry to be harsh. I think the subject deserves strong wording.

 

[Ðekel]

i agree with Palinurus 100 percent.

if you indeed entertain an idea of 'lesser folk', i find that very very dangerous.

keep in mind that people 'out there' just going about their business could be any type of person going through any type of ordeal.
their looks or the lack of your closeness to them, don't mean anything at all in and of themselves.

 

[Buddy]

It sounds like you may need some quality EE time, Bud.

You may be right. My excuse has been that there's no time.

Do you set aside time each day to decompress from your job?

Not really, I suppose.

Do you change clothes when you get home from work to help your mind let go of the work mindset?

No, hadn't even thought of that. I go right into doing whatever needs to be done around the house, if nothing else.

Have you ever taken the time to look in a mirror and watch your body language?

Not in a long time.

Emotional people tend to be chronically open. Until you reach a time when you've accepted all that means, warts and

all, you're going to be fighting a natural human tendency toward small talk. That's something that's hard wired into

human beings....it goes all the way back to grooming bugs out of each others hair. :D

I guess so, I hadn't really thought about that either.

A quiet smile, a kind word, opening a door for someone....little actions that are done for other people help with

this. You don't have to engage in 'small talk' for that.

I do that kind of stuff as much as I can! That's what I enjoy the most I think.

Emotional people need silence....have you made time for it?

Not really. The only real quiet seems to be when I'm drifting off to sleep.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Buddy]

I'm sorry, Guardian, but I seem to be referring only to acquaintances (potential friends), where you seem to be talking about actual friends (meaning the friendship has already been made). [...]
I was just reminded of what the C's said about how "the illusion is that there is separation." If this is true, as I suspect, then instead of me really talking about "other people" here, it appears that I am revealing little more than my own deep narcissistic wounding.

Yes, I think Guardian's point might revolve around the fact that in your description of how much you want a real connection with people, you are totally self-focused. You don't even mention what it is these other people want and how to give it to them - acquaintances or not. As long as you move through life focusing on what you don't get from others, you totally miss the fact that you can only get the things you 'want' by giving first. If you shift your focus away from what you so desperately want and toward what it is that others really want, a whole new world opens up.

In that case, thanks to you and Guardian. I am slowly absorbing the reality of this. Put that together with the knowledge that it is I who is occasionally shallow and foolish and I probably have the real reason for feeling sick - not because of anything you or anyone else has said.

---------------------------------------------------------

Frankly, I think the attitude you're revealing seems rather elitist, rigid and hermitlike. No wonder if you would end up a recluse. I know, been there, done that, et cetera. It all boils down to a lack of external considering or maybe even low esteem for fellow humans. In short, it's a sign of prejudice and bias. No amount of narcissistic wounding could ever justify this attitude - subjectively nor objectively. It just seems you don't want to put in the effort because it's too costly for you while the returns are doubtful. That would be rather coldly calculating, wouldn't it. And besides that, you're far too much identifying with your own difficulties in this regard. A bit of detachment towards that and a bit more understanding of the circumstances of others would help you a long way in a different direction, I would think.

It's no good to be nice here and observe forum rules and common decency while posting, thinking the way you apparently do about 'lesser folks' outside this venue and in real life.

Sorry to be harsh. I think the subject deserves strong wording.

It's OK because I've earned it if it's true. Fortunately I know the difference between my attitude and my knowing, and I know that there are no people "lesser" than me. Lately, everyday I live with the knowledge that my idiocy, attitudes, ignorance and anything else is all on display all over the forum and in this public thread as well as any inferences that can be drawn from it all. Then, there is the knowledge of how any projection of "superiority" is not only a compensatory mechanism for it's reverse (inferiority), it would also be clearly visible to anyone who knows better.

I don't know how I'm going to deal with it all, but I know it will have to be one step at a time, as anart has said.

Thanks for the input, Palinurus.

-----------------------------------------

i agree with Palinurus 100 percent.

if you indeed entertain an idea of 'lesser folk', i find that very very dangerous.

keep in mind that people 'out there' just going about their business could be any type of person going through any type of ordeal.
their looks or the lack of your closeness to them, don't mean anything at all in and of themselves.

Not to worry, transientP. If there is an idea of "lesser folk", I am only entertaining it in relation to my development into being somebody worth something. That's probably a good reason for why we're having this discussion. Thanks for your input.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Like many others on here and IRL, I have always seen through the social ego with its meaningless babble and needs for ritual and stroking. As far back as I can remember, deep down I've wanted nothing but to simply, painlessly and instantly connect with people on a meaningful level with NONE of that hand-shaky, "hey, howya doing? How's your mama an 'em?, watch the game last night? Didja see Cal Petty make that long free-throw down the football field, ring the net, bounce off the goalie and knock out the pitcher?, why you look like that? Something wrong? Are you sick?"

This stuff is everywhere mind-numbing and every time I have to go through two days of psychobabble ritual before I can connect with someone on a serious, meaningful level just so I can say a meaningful heart-felt word to them, buy something at a 'convenience' store, ask a question about my car or share a bit of joy about anything at all, it can become quite painful to bear, and to bear witness to, in more ways than just one because neurologically and physiologically, I just don't naturally tolerate it well, that's all.

My "do it again" pleasure center seems to work a-typically due to my particular brain chemistry or configuration, so at times while I was growing up, avoiding social contact to avoid a bit of neurological or emotional pain while feeling a deep emotional need to connect was just part of my life and probably made me un-sane or whatever.

Buddy, to add to what the others have said to you about the small-talk thing, it might help for you to think of it this way: Small talk definitely serves a social purpose. Similar to stages of courtship (and how many of us in the socially awkward period of adolescence have wondered why we couldn't skip all the "nonsense" and get right to what we want from our object of desire?). If you think about it, before you can connect with someone on a meaningful level, you have to know if THEY want to connect with you that way and if YOU want to connect with them that way. Small talk is one step in a step-by-step process where each party feels the other one out, sees if they have enough in common, if the non-verbal signals are right, etc. before going to the next step of a slightly more meaningful conversation. The real meaningful connections are more rare and can only come later.

For example, if you come up to someone at a party or at your kid's soccer field and go right to the meaningful stuff, it will creep them out. Or if someone you don't want to connect with does that to you, the same thing. Small talk is a good skill to have, if only to ease social awkwardness, if, for example, you have to take an hour car ride with a co-worker or client you don't know very well. Long silences are only comfortable with people you know really well. Better to talk about the weather, sports, your commute, or housing prices or something. No need to overdo it, but it is a good skill to have.

 

[Laura]

Buddy, if anybody detests small-talk, meaningless chit-chat, it's me. I've never suffered fools gladly. But over the years, my attitude toward the world has changed because I have come to realize that those who have gifts of various sorts are obligated (assuming they seek to serve) to use those gifts on behalf of others. We live in this reality/density/whatever because this is where we FIT. And in order to grow up, so to say, we must learn the lessons of this reality. Those lessons include mastering ourselves within the reality so that it no longer controls us, but we choose what happens to is to some extent. Mastering ourselves within the reality means being a good obyvatel, at one level, and doing what I call "paying rent on life." There is no free lunch in the Universe and if you want a life that is more to your choosing, you have to pay for it. One of the things you pay with is your self-importance, your attitude that you don't suffer fools gladly. Because, indeed, those "fools" are part of this reality - it belongs to them, you could say.

And so, External Considering is one of the ways you "pay rent on life." External considering requires a deep knowledge of human beings so that you can know how to make life easier for them so that they make life easier for you. It takes great self-control. I'm still learning these lessons.

Doing accounting and taxes is another thing I detest, but I have to do it and have been doing it for years, and the present situation we found ourselves in vis a vis the cult accusation from that French nutcase, "Jean" just proves that this was very important. By having all my records in order, by having gotten advice from lawyers and accountants, I'm in an unassailable position. Oh, yeah, they may try to nail something on me, but if they do, we'll be in court and I'll produce all my records and have attorneys to back me up, so it won't go anywhere. So that is one practical example of "paying rent on life."

Another is having good relations with my neighbors with whom I MUST do the "chit-chat" and "small-talk" because they are clearly not interested in anything that really interests me. What I have done is to try to find areas where we have mutual interests, like gardening, cooking, raising my dogs, etc.

Yes, it helps that, within the house, I don't have to deal with idle chit-chat if I don't want to, and it helps if everybody has at least one person close to them that they can truly be themselves with and decompress, but if you don't, you DO have the forum here. And that is one of the reasons this forum exists; I KNOW that there are a lot of people who, like me, spent most - or all - of their lives with no real, honest, sincere, person to talk to who was close to them.

So, please, think of the world out there and the people in it as being as it is meant to be, and that it has a purpose, and it is your job to learn how to interact with it effectively in order to grow. Simple karmic understandings, learning to be of service in whatever way the Universe presents it to you...

 

[Ollie]

… I've never suffered fools gladly. … And so, External Considering is one of the ways you "pay rent on life." External considering requires a deep knowledge of human beings so that you can know how to make life easier for them so that they make life easier for you. It takes great self-control. I'm still learning these lessons.

Make that another, and I’ve found this particularly hard to do – truly externally considering - I thought that I was empathizing with others, but I now discover, thanks to the forum, that I was merely lying to myself.

and it helps if everybody has at least one person close to them that they can truly be themselves with and decompress, but if you don't, you DO have the forum here. And that is one of the reasons this forum exists; I KNOW that there are a lot of people who, like me, spent most - or all - of their lives with no real, honest, sincere, person to talk to who was close to them.

That would be me too, still searching for that person in Life, and I’m thankful for the forum acting in that capacity, although it’s taking time to really open up and trust, a lifelong issue, and ‘truly be myself with and decompress’. I’m still working on that, realizing that it’s time to put aside my False Personality and seek to be my authentic self – to take the risks of really opening up, rather than hiding behind my ‘intellectualisation’, of ‘being right’, and starting to learn from scratch.

Buddy, it may help, or not, to work on exiting the mask of False Personality, accepting yourself as you really are, warts and all, and take the risk – and it’s a big one – of truly opening yourself up to the forum. If you want a good book to read that puts a great deal of this into perspective, then I would suggest ‘Adult Children of Alcoholics’ by Janet Geringer Woititz – a real eye-opener (and my parents were other than alcoholics). One of her suggested exercises is to, daily, 'reach out to another person, either by getting to know them better for who you are or by letting them know you a little better for who you are.'

One of the greatest realizations I've ever come to was when I realized, deeply, that - at the end of the day - it's not about me

This has taken a long time to hit me too, and only just recently, just how important this is, and the need to fight against all that I’ve ever known in my life, which is about me.

So, please, think of the world out there and the people in it as being as it is meant to be, and that it has a purpose, and it is your job to learn how to interact with it effectively in order to grow. Simple karmic understandings, learning to be of service in whatever way the Universe presents it to you...

Thank you for this comment Laura, it reinforcing something that I’m only just beginning to realise.

 

[Tigersoap]

Buddy, if anybody detests small-talk, meaningless chit-chat, it's me. I've never suffered fools gladly. But over the years, my attitude toward the world has changed because I have come to realize that those who have gifts of various sorts are obligated (assuming they seek to serve) to use those gifts on behalf of others.

I never liked chit-chat either, but I think I was always feeling way too self-important when I was recoiling from it.
I learned to make an effort and still try not to default to my "grumpy bear mode" with people although it still happens.
As an exercise I try to small talk whenever the situation allows it and it does not need to last long.
By making other people feel at ease it also makes me feel more at ease, I don't know but it's a good feeling to have.