AI and music in our future…

[Musicinventor]

I happened upon this video and thought it would be good to share with the forum. Considering some of the things the C’s have said about the type of music we listen to, could be a good thing to think about. As a composer who still works old school via notation and utilizing my knowledge of actually writing, and orchestrating music, I find it disconcerting (no pun intended) that those like myself could become unnecessary in the art of writing musc in the future…

 

[Alejo]

I happened upon this video and thought it would be good to share with the forum. Considering some of the things the C’s have said about the type of music we listen to, could be a good thing to think about. As a composer who still works old school via notation and utilizing my knowledge of actually writing, and orchestrating music, I find it disconcerting (no pun intended) that those like myself could become unnecessary in the art of writing musc in the future…

Most creative endeavors seem to be turning into jobs and they've stopped being art forms.

Same thing goes for painting, photography, writing, even influencers and acting, even software developers. The one thing we had going for us, which was our creative potential, is slowly being replaced by machines, and some people really love it.

 

[goyacobol]

I happened upon this video and thought it would be good to share with the forum. Considering some of the things the C’s have said about the type of music we listen to, could be a good thing to think about. As a composer who still works old school via notation and utilizing my knowledge of actually writing, and orchestrating music, I find it disconcerting (no pun intended) that those like myself could become unnecessary in the art of writing musc in the future…

I find myself feeling the same way. I have watched and saved many of Rick Beato's videos (I even bought his Beato Book). He also is friends with many older composers and musicians. One studio guitarist Tim Pierce who has recently shared videos with Rick was a one musician that I found before knowing he knew Rick Beato.

They both describe how it was say just 20 to 30 years ago and how it has changed and continues to change. Maybe I am wrong but I do not think newer is always better. Hopefully, live performances will remain or at least become a treat for the soul.

Here is their interview where they speak about many aspects of the music industry/profession that are being lost:

 

[Bernardo GA]

Music that does good to people is brought by people, through inspiration.
I doubt very much that AI can do such a thing. It may have a lot of technical precision, but it will not be a connection and interaction with the higher planes.

Therefore, the service to humanity by true artists, composers, will still be needed.
This is of course, if we are considering the immaterial value of the matter.
From the material point of view, it is already another matter.

Perhaps it will be much more difficult for composers to make a living from this activity. But it is always better not to be afraid. The Cas have advised not to fall into certain worries. But just in case, we pray!

 

[brandon]

I don't know much about composing and arranging in sheet music form, but about the art of production, things like auto-tune etc... Oof, I really dislike the sound of auto-tune. Would much rather hear what the singer actually sounds like, even if it's not perfect....nah, especially if it's not perfect. (OK though, I do like vocoders as an effect... like lots of Mike Oldfield's stuff used..)

When I was studying sound tech, 20+ years ago, my teacher was an old rock guitarist dude who had been around for ages and knew what it was all about. He showed us how it was common then on commercial recordings to, for example, when recording drums, edit the recording on the computer and if any of the individual drum hits were slightly out of time, move them so they'd be exactly on the beat. So you have the real sound of someone playing drums, but the rhythm is so exact it might as well be a drum machine (I have nothing against drum machines BTW). We didn't have auto-tune in the studio then (not sure if it existed or not) but there were tools to automate the shifting of drum-hits to snap them to a grid... He was scornful of this but showed us because it was a skill you'd need if you were to work in the recording industry.. Auto-tune is basically the same thing but for vocals and pitch rather than drums and rhythm.

Ever since then my music making ethos has been to keep mistakes in. Maybe not every mistake.. maybe if you messed up real bad, you need to record another take (or 10).. but if your take has real feeling in it, if you LIVED that music while you played it, then little mistakes are part of that & only enhance it IMO. Taking them out takes out the vibe. (In the purely electronic music I've made I used to purposely put in fake "mistakes" in an attempt to make it sound more real... Maybe that's going too far in the other direction... :))

Same goes for the mix itself. I have come to prefer a bit of a raw, weird, lopsided mix, to a slick studio sound.. Maybe the bass isn't very bassy.. Maybe the drums lack punch except for this one massive tom roll. Maybe the bass is panned way too far to the left for some reason, phase cancellation all over the place.. Maybe there's some background noise, a chair creak, a dog snoring in the background, crickets outside..but the performance was magic... Keep them in! They're all lovely and they make the music so much realer.

AI generated music is uninteresting to me. Though there's algorithmic music I love - made by humans controlling computers to automate the sound in emergent ways.. It's a different thing than somebody playing an instrument, seems to speak much more to my head than my heart, but it can be good. But I just can't summon up an ounce of interest in listening to something made entirely by AI.. feels like staring into a void.. (then again, how much music is out there that I've heard and liked but didn't know was AI? just like I didn't know the drums had probably been "fixed" in lots of stuff I listened to in the 90s)

 

[Cosmos]

I think just musically speaking western music has been living through progressively worsening dark ages for years now. At least when it comes to mainstream and semi mainstream music. It becomes worse year after year. I see the AI stuff as continuation of that negative trend. I think Rick Beato has done a pretty good in highlighting exactly that on his YouTube videos for years.

 

[Magnolia]

Therefore, the service to humanity by true artists, composers, will still be needed.

As a disclaimer, I know nothing of AI generated 'music,' have done no research, and am unqualified to make any statements. But I am going to anyway. I act on the license enabled by "free speech," even in uninformed hands.

In the 70's and 80's, I could go a short distance and listen to live bands, folk music, guitar players, piano music, and jazz trios for the price of a drink (about $2.00) and listen all night. On Friday nights, they also gave two drinks for the price of one and free food (good food) to draw people in. There were few "big names," just people playing. Live, and mostly acoustic, music was a staple of life. In town, people said the little pubs that littered certain streets were AA -- 'Attitude Adjustment' opportunities. They weren't wrong. After sitting and listening for hours, I'd walk down empty city streets on the way home, lost in no-thought, my body having become like a rippling stream, serene but constantly moving, invulnerable, resonating with and still vibrating from sound. Live music transformed, and uplifted. I reminisce; because I miss it.

There is very little "live music" near me now -- a chamber music group, a town band, an amateur orchestra -- and they are often rather pricey. This week, however, out of the blue, the library offered a "healing sounds" session. Being auditorially deprived, of course I attended. A woman played two dozen crystal bowls (99.992% quartz, no less) -- each a different size, sound, vibration. (Some were small and could hold about a gallon of water; many were quite large -- nearly 2 feet across and almost as high). The bowls were set on the carpet in a small room in two rows. She walked amongst them with a mallet, touching one, then another, for 40 minutes or so. I was consumed by vibration. I became the vibration. Several grievances I harbored simply dissolved. I was uplifted, serene, transformed; reverberating in a state of no-thought. The "I" was, for a moment, no longer present. I was one with the universe.

At the stolen history website, some people propose that the function of what we now call "churches" and "organs" was vibrational correction of unhealthy or disturbing thoughtstreams that constricted the body or mind. That people would go to these buildings whenever they needed to, to get a "great reset," the right kind of reset; something like an atmospherically derived acupuncture that allowed one to shed impediments and open circuits in the body and mind to facilitate the proper flow of energy so people could step out of their bog, and grow and glow.

While attending the 'healing sounds' session, I felt as though I experienced such an existential acupuncture -- an alignment of my energies with something bigger, greater, and better than me. Something verging on the infinite and the eternal.

Am I being naive and silly, taken in by a 'new fad' and a new 'experience?" Not sure. There is such a thing as 'existential validation' (by their fruits you shall know them). I intend to pursue my interest in these bowls, so time will tell.

At the moment, I (somewhat euphorically) think that it would be a service to humanity (and a significant demise of "health care" and toxic Rx) to establish a series of "healing sounds" rooms across the nation for all to attend, whenever needed, as a public service -- like the "churches" may have been at one time. However (sad to say), anything that obviates malicious intervention by the medical industry would probably be corrupted before it got too well established.

By comparing this recent experience of being immersed in real-time, person(ally) generated sound, my guess is that AI music is superficial noise; a dead squirrel on the road that you try to avoid when driving. It's a squirrel all right, but it's no good now; the life is all gone out of it. Like lipstick or rouge, it might serve a function -- camouflaging emptiness; but is that function worth fulfilling? Filling air with uninspired sound? Even if it could replicate a pleasant melody like the 1940's music, could it have any chemical, physiological or spiritual effect, because it is, so simply, uncreative, uninspired?

So it makes me consider: what IS (real) music? What is the intent behind it? What is its purpose? Why do we listen to it? Does it "do" something, "remove" something, "fill" something? If so, what existential state does it achieve, fill, obviate, move, or transform? What is "writing" music, and why do are we moved to do it? When we compose, what are we actually transforming into a unique series of sounds? When we play, what is the spirit that moves us? I'm starting to think about this. "Intent," "effect," and "inspiration" seem to be key words in the definition and understanding of what can be called 'music.'

In the end, I wonder if music is ......
"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness......[where] the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it[?]" (Isaiah 40 KJV) Can a computer do that?

 

[Musicinventor]

Most creative endeavors seem to be turning into jobs and they've stopped being art forms

That begs the question; where is the line between art and product?

Hopefully, live performances will remain or at least become a treat for the soul.

(then again, how much music is out there that I've heard and liked but didn't know was AI?

I was a teen in the 70’s. I took up guitar, bass, and music theory at 15 in 1975. In my neighborhood there were more than enough kids playing instruments to put together a dozen bands; which we did. As I continued on this path I transitioned from playing in cover bands to searching for others interested in writing original music. Almost at once the pool of interested players decreased. While attending Berklee In Boston studying composition I was able to connect with others interested in original music. By the time I moved back home in 1992 the pool of musicians interested in writing original music had all but dried up. If you weren’t in a cover band you either had one hell of a time finding gigs or you just didn’t play out, unless it was for some sort of free event. My time studying composition at Carnegie Mellon provided many opportunities for Classical performance as the school was predominantly performers. After graduating in 2004, finding performers interested in new music in the Classical genre became a matter of money, (I just don’t have that amount of resources) and in the rock genre, well, the pool has piles of dirt and leaves blowing around in it. In order to have my music heard I turned to creating MIDI performances of my compositions. Today, at 63, it has become almost impossible to find real humans who want to play or record music, and those that do are still only doing cover tunes. Most of the players my age, due to health issues, can’t play anymore or don’t have/make the time. With MIDI performances I can create a reasonable facsimile with minimal costs, no stress, and actually have others listen to my artistic endeavors. I would prefer real humans but it seems like working and creating via computer is my only choice.

In the end, I wonder if music is ......
"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness

As I’ve told my partner many a time… I don’t write the music, I’m just a conduit for something that comes from a higher place. I can plan and plan and plan a composition but in the end a lot of the planning is overruled by a greater force with far greater results!

 

[BHelmet]

Awesome comments by all. I’d go with the definition that Music is a kind of language. So much can be communicated and expressed whether emotions or ideas. (And you can turn the mood on a dime without anyone questioning, “Dude, how was THAT logical?”)

As for AI…is nothing sacred? Apparently not. Auto tune? = Fingernails on a blackboard; a remedy for egos who can’t sing or don’t want to put in the work to learn.

I keep coming back to the ballad of John Henry in my life. I was a travel agent way back when you could make a decent living at it. The early implementation of AI destroyed that endeavor. As I’d madly hammer away at the computer keyboard trying to exploit the flaws in the system, I’d think of being a modern John Henry fighting a losing battle.

And so now music is in the gunsights. I think there will always be a niche market for real humans in music. It’s a great marketing tool! Made by real hyoomons! But the mass market, sadly, will be dominated by fakery. That’s the current trend.

But fear not. The comets will reset everything for another go in 3D land. As for music creation in 4D? That could get interesting!

 

[Musicinventor]

I keep coming back to the ballad of John Henry in my life. I was a travel agent way back when you could make a decent living at it. The early implementation of AI destroyed that endeavor. As I’d madly hammer away at the computer keyboard trying to exploit the flaws in the system, I’d think of being a modern John Henry fighting a losing battle.

That captures my feelings at times when I’m working… I’m trying to recall where I heard the quote; "kids today are more interested in video games and have very little interest in making music." I think it was Rick Beato but can’t remember the episode.

 

[brandon]

With MIDI performances I can create a reasonable facsimile with minimal costs, no stress, and actually have others listen to my artistic endeavors. I would prefer real humans but it seems like working and creating via computer is my only choice.

Speaking of video games, I was going to say, I actually really like the sound of General MIDI. I guess because I grew up playing computer games on DOS PC's, basic MIDI music was something I listened to a lot & I find it soothing. Though when I got into making my own music I preferred using synths which don't try to recreate acoustic instruments, but are just their own thing..

I think there are lots of young people who are interested in creating music (and art, etc), it's just that yeah, they are often lead to it BY video games these days. The most likely place to be able to work (and make a living) as a composer now seems like it'd be the film/tv and games industries.. which I think suffer from the same thing as popular music industry - everything sounds the same because people try for that familiar sound, because it's familiar and will sell.

But look on a site like bandcamp (huge site where musicians of any kind can release their recorded music for free, or for money, with great ease. relatively non-evil..) and see there are a huge huge number of people making original music. I don't think it's declining at all. I think it's just that most people never hear about it because most mainstream media doesn't cover it.. And lots of it is online-only. Where I grew up had a lively original music scene, way more original bands than cover bands.. (band I was in in the 2000s, we played gigs every week, made enough money for food and smokes for the night, heheh).. it's still like that there. Where I live now, almost no chance of hearing live original music.

I don't know what radio stations are like in the US, but here there are community-supported stations with young and old presenters who seek out and play new original music constantly.. I hear new bands and solo artists every day. Some of 'em are even good :D Though admittedly, as far as I know, there's not much of orchestral/large ensemble arrangements etc, other than for film & game soundtracks.

Writing large ensemble music and not having access to people to perform it, is tough.. Are there like, community or youth orchestras, where you live, who might be interested in playing new music? I guess the only chance of that kinda thing is probably if you live somewhere near a university with music stuff going on..

Back to the actual topic.. I can definitely see AI music taking over Big Music Industry type stuff. It was already practically impossible to make a living from original music, for decades, here at least. But I can't see original music made by humans for the love of it ever dying. Music making in 4D? Yes please! Whenever I make music in dreams, it's really good hehe..

 

[Musicinventor]

Though when I got into making my own music I preferred using synths which don't try to recreate acoustic instruments, but are just their own thing..

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everything sounds the same because people try for that familiar sound, because it's familiar and will sell.

That is a big problem as everything most people chose to listen to is based on what they’ve heard from a young age. In music, familiarity is the driving factor in what one likes.

I think there are lots of young people who are interested in creating music (and art, etc),

I gave up private teaching in 2013. Beside the government always creating more hoops to jump through and taking more money from us the kids were, more and more, interested in their technology devices. I used to try and do what I called swap day; swap the time you spend on your technology with the time you spend on your instrument. Lol! I, along with other teachers I worked with all saw this coming in the early 2000’s. Student base started to dwindle and when the government initiated the affordable care act student base across the board fell by 15%. Music lessons became a luxury for middle class families on down. When the budget needs cutting in local school districts the music programs are always the first to go.

But look on a site like bandcamp

I tried Bandcamp… after a lengthy period I got one hit from a local,guy putting a cover band together!

I don't know what radio stations are like in the US

Clear Channel owns practically all, if not all radio in the States. Back in the 70’s there was a station in my town, WYDD that played a lot of non mainstream music, and excelled at promoting the Prog bands of the day. Today it’s crap and classic rock.

Writing large ensemble music and not having access to people to perform it, is tough..

In my community we have a sports field/complex for every every 100 people! (I exaggerate ;D) Community orchestras are non existent due to budget restraints. If you don’t know the right people, getting a piece played will not happen. Back back around 2009-11 I had a student whose father was director of guidance counseling at the local high-school. He would pass on statistics from studies he would get on topics related to colleges and majors. The two that I remember are; 1. Back then 86% of the U.S. population did not play a musical instrument. 2. 90% of students graduating from universities with a degree in composition will never have the opportunity to have a professional orchestra perform their music. I can’t imagine the number of performers that can’t find professional work, as the majority of those orchestras are in economic distress. I recall a cellist friend who auditioned for a seat in the Boston Symphony Orchestra. There were 200 cellists who attended the audition.

Live or MIDI I’m thankful that I have a means of getting my music heard. It’s not the optimal solution but comes mighty close. The one aspect of AI that I’m definitely against are the wave of chord and melody generators. People are "creating" music who don’t have even the most basic skills.

 

[brandon]

If you’re not familiar you might want to check out;

I haven't been doing synth music for a few years, gone acoustic again, though will probably do more in the future.. but yeah cool, ta! Native Instruments Reaktor was my tool of choice for years. Interesting software!

Beside the government always creating more hoops to jump through and taking more money from us the kids were, more and more, interested in their technology

I was a kid like that :) Went to classical guitar lessons because my parents forced me to, but would've rathered be at home on the computer .... Then I discovered I could make music on the computer, and never looked back.. So IMO, don't write off those kids..the creative urge, for anyone who has it, will come through no matter what the environment I reckon.

I tried Bandcamp… after a lengthy period I got one hit from a local,guy putting a cover band together!

Ah I wasn't really telling you to check out bandcamp, it was just a figure of speech. My point was just that there are heaps of people making original music still :) I wasn't talking about finding performers - not sure we're talking about the same site, bandcamp.com? It's like iTunes, a place to find and buy recorded music.. the internet equivalent of a record store, except anyone can put their albums on there instantly with no approval process or record label involvement etc...

In my community we have a sports field/complex for every every 100 people! (I exaggerate ;D) Community orchestras are non existent due to budget restraints.

Same here pretty much.. sooo much sports :) I was fortunate to grow up in a town with a thriving music scene, both orchestral and modern, and all my friends and family were musicians..I grew up constantly hanging around an orchestra and brass band that my parents played in. Utterly spoilt, I was.. Since I moved here, it's been a bit of a shock. The only live music I've heard in years is buskers!

 

[Alejo]

That begs the question; where is the line between art and product?

I would say in the humanity you connect with when in the presence of art, that you cannot find when simply consuming a product. Most people can feel it and sense it, but it's truly difficult to articulate.

 

[BHelmet]

Since I moved here, it's been a bit of a shock. The only live music I've heard in years is buskers!

Where is here? How about go see a concert? Universities often have performances of various kinds. Or make a road trip to see an old school show…. “Years”? Wow!

The past year I went to a couple shows with my wife and daughter. It was awesome and well worth it. Pretty trippy to be in those environs again. I guess putting our money where our mouths are could be a thing: support real music by real humans.