Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality

[Steph_rivers]

Wow. What a thread. Thanks Ariana Grande for helping us with The Work…lol

Being raised in a hispanic “culture”, In my personal experience as a young boy at a very young age, I was already exposed to a lot of the objectifying of women. It was in the music and album art of a lot of Latino artists. I remember being “mesmerized” by the beautiful women in the videos and albums I would see.
My older sisters would listen to a lot of music that lyrically sang a lot of sexual vulgarities. I always despised it.

Ironically, it was because of them that I saw how nasty grown up men can be. When we would walk down the streets, dudes would stop and roll their windows down and whistle or yell and I would grab rocks and throw them at the cars. They both ended up in abusive relationships, one verbal and another physical. Still suffering to this day.

I think this personally created a “protective” barrier in my mind that allowed a sense of honor growing up. But that still doesn’t prevent control/desire.
I was still exposed to a lot of bad people in my adolescent / military life that I allowed influence over my mind, along with loneliness I allowed the sexual chasm to take over my thoughts and actions. It would give me social anxiety being around an “attractive female”. I would never openly disrespect a women, but the “intrusive” “fantasies” would for sure bombard the conscious mind. I would hate that I couldn’t stop thinking of a certain someone, and I wonder if sometimes people can feel that.

A grand lesson would one day come to me, as i put myself in a dumb drunk situation and was sexually assaulted by another man. Nothing too crazy but disgusting nonetheless. It’s very disgusting being seen as a piece of meat. And I personally have a biased toward homosexual men after that experience, but it made me realize first hand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of that predatory lust of another.

This thread is very eye opening as it puts a lot of scattered pieces of unorganized chaos into tanglible explanations. It helps to think of oneself as a machine being influenced by chemical reactions and culture, also the men who shared their experiences and struggles, I applaud you. It takes a great deal to open this dialogue to women, vise versa and sharing perspectives/methods to become AWARE of these things is more valuable than gold in my opinion. Thank you.

I’ll take the “going to the grocery store when hungry” and “eating junk food” analogies into my self dense archive. Thanks again Ariana Grande

 

[ELT]

[I made a wrong handling by publishing the previous post, please delete it]

It hapenned the same to me recently. After reflecting and asking myself if I was at fault (through unconscious projective identification for instance) and once being aware of my acts, I noticed that it wasn't necessarily me sending the wrong message this time, but rather her picking it up in the wrong way, misinterpreting it. I keep being as aware as possible about the times I'm actually sending seductive signals as an old running program for self-gratification, it mostly happens involuntarily nowadays.

After all, when someone catches our attention, a true connection won't need seduction to be created. It will be naturally fueled by the respective interests in one another, stepping from the merging curiosity of both individuals.

I would like to make an update concerning my above post, while sharing an experience that can contribute to clear the picture of how the Control System can manifest in life.
[this might not correspond properly to this thread but is linked to the above]

After a 6-month observation of the individual talked about, plus recurring recapitulation, I am getting pretty sure that I'm spotting an actual psychopath.
That she was an agent, petty tyrant, vampire was a certainty from the beginning, recently confirmed by the description of vampirism in the Wave (chap.38). The next question was what kind ? A struggling soul, an extension of a 4thD STS being [robot type] or a natural predator ?

In any case, she's a vampire. So I have not to be nice and I had to 'draw the line and mean it', which I'm grateful I did early enough and know now that it could have been earlier. I've learned much.

Before doing it, when so many programs of kindness were activated and I made the mistake of being nice, at one occasion, I remember observing precisely this :
(Estes,1997 :)

The instinctive nature knows that being ‘sweet’ in these instances only makes the predator smile.

Now that I'm entering the Wave's description of psychopathy (~chap.58), I find an exact description of what I observe.
The peculiar Stare ;
Feeling like a real prey : my whole body was literally shivering the very first night of meeting and day after, when not in presence of the 'person'. I reminded of it being a natural physical animal reaction to release stress. I was a definite prey, take that 'self-worth'!
Letting it be, accepting and observing what my body's intelligence had to tell me have been a relief
;
The words not matching the actions ;
The burst when being made worthless ;
The invasion of space that I confused for sexuality, but she later literally jumped at me like a real predator trying to kiss me, which is when I seriously drew the line, and then she said "sometimes I do things like that".
I did feel like a piece of meat and understood way more what can be experienced by women when the feminine/masculine roles are switched.
The Wave chap.58 : [emphasis mine]

In the book Violent Attachments, women and men have noted the particular stare of the psychopath: It is an intense, relentless gaze that seems to precede his destruction of his victim or target. Women, in particular, have reported this stare, which is related to the “predatorial” (reptilian) gaze; it is as if the psychopath is directing all of his intensity toward you through his eyes, a sensation that one woman reported as a feeling of “being eaten.” They tend to invade peoples’ space either by their sudden intrusions or intimidating look-overs (which some women confuse for sexuality).

I had also observed an appetence on her side for leopard designs on clothes. What about the psycho-and-theological meanings of this sign ?

This girl is my housemate, the landlords had chosen her to enter the deal. I realize being under attack for some time, which asks much attention that's sure.
At the same time I feel excited to finally be able to observe what a probable psychopath looks like, once the specimen has been 'discovered, captured and contained'.
I grasp even more don Juan sayings, even though this petty tyrant is still a teeny tiny one :

We know that nothing can temper the spirit of a warrior as much as the challenge of dealing with impossible people in positions of power.

 

[Menna]

[I made a wrong handling by publishing the previous post, please delete it]

I would like to make an update concerning my above post, while sharing an experience that can contribute to clear the picture of how the Control System can manifest in life.
[this might not correspond properly to this thread but is linked to the above]

After a 6-month observation of the individual talked about, plus recurring recapitulation, I am getting pretty sure that I'm spotting an actual psychopath.
That she was an agent, petty tyrant, vampire was a certainty from the beginning, recently confirmed by the description of vampirism in the Wave (chap.38). The next question was what kind ? A struggling soul, an extension of a 4thD STS being [robot type] or a natural predator ?

In any case, she's a vampire. So I have not to be nice and I had to 'draw the line and mean it', which I'm grateful I did early enough and know now that it could have been earlier. I've learned much.

Before doing it, when so many programs of kindness were activated and I made the mistake of being nice, at one occasion, I remember observing precisely this :
(Estes,1997 :)


Now that I'm entering the Wave's description of psychopathy (~chap.58), I find an exact description of what I observe.
The peculiar Stare ;
Feeling like a real prey : my whole body was literally shivering the very first night of meeting and day after, when not in presence of the 'person'. I reminded of it being a natural physical animal reaction to release stress. I was a definite prey, take that 'self-worth'!
Letting it be, accepting and observing what my body's intelligence had to tell me have been a relief
;
The words not matching the actions ;
The burst when being made worthless ;
The invasion of space that I confused for sexuality, but she later literally jumped at me like a real predator trying to kiss me, which is when I seriously drew the line, and then she said "sometimes I do things like that".
I did feel like a piece of meat and understood way more what can be experienced by women when the feminine/masculine roles are switched.
The Wave chap.58 : [emphasis mine]

I had also observed an appetence on her side for leopard designs on clothes. What about the psycho-and-theological meanings of this sign ?

This girl is my housemate, the landlords had chosen her to enter the deal. I realize being under attack for some time, which asks much attention that's sure.
At the same time I feel excited to finally be able to observe what a probable psychopath looks like, once the specimen has been 'discovered, captured and contained'.
I grasp even more don Juan sayings, even though this petty tyrant is still a teeny tiny one :

Can you move from your location under the guise of family, or health or income reasons.

How does one with a soul, empathy and all that strictly observe a psychopath or a narcissist or any of the other 9 personality disorders without entering into their Karmic cycle.

For example sharing space, food, energy, aquantances, friends, paying the rent, romantic partners in similar space.

She’s a poison if she is a true psychopath/sociopath or has strong personality disorders why do you want to be in the same area as this poison?

You have learned, seen, observed, gained experience and knowledge…Not sure what else you want. To play a game with poison?

They will know that something is up as you will change your behavior with this knowledge. To be honest you have most likely given off intimations that you know already and she is activly trying to be one step ahead of you.

Move on and create the reality you want. If it’s observing psychopaths and dancing a fine line of observation and not getting involved then best of luck but by observing you are involved.

Go accomplish you goals and wants.

 

[Menna]

Can you move from your location under the guise of family, or health or income reasons.

How does one with a soul, empathy and all that strictly observe a psychopath or a narcissist or any of the other 9 personality disorders without entering into their Karmic cycle.

For example sharing space, food, energy, aquantances, friends, paying the rent, romantic partners in similar space.

She’s a poison if she is a true psychopath/sociopath or has strong personality disorders why do you want to be in the same area as this poison?

You have learned, seen, observed, gained experience and knowledge…Not sure what else you want. To play a game with poison?

They will know that something is up as you will change your behavior with this knowledge. To be honest you have most likely given off intimations that you know already and she is activly trying to be one step ahead of you.

Move on and create the reality you want. If it’s observing psychopaths and dancing a fine line of observation and not getting involved then best of luck but by observing you are involved.

Go accomplish you goals and wants.

I had a friend that was in a relationship with a strange women. She would play with her hair and stair at me it was so off I pretended like it wasn’t happening, she was also attacking and combative (with words) assuming negative things about me, saying I’m a certain way and bashing and then she wanted attention from me in a physical way and she said she genuinely loves me.

What did I do? Did I want to see if there was “love” there. Did I want to explore her or get to know or observe her problems more? NO, they are STUPID they do not take life’s hints they don’t want to grow they identify with control and manipulation MAYBE they are a very troubled/learning soul MAYBE but even if that’s the case it’s not our job to take that risk to spend our time that can be for not. they are all about control and manipulations. Words not matching actions, they tease, frame, set up and more… once she knew I knew who she was and I stopped interacting that she couldn’t “feed” off me the texts from her stopped cold Turkey and I rarely see her. My life is too important to have my reality being bent or controlled by the poison.

 

[ELT]

Can you move from your location under the guise of family, or health or income reasons.

How does one with a soul, empathy and all that strictly observe a psychopath or a narcissist or any of the other 9 personality disorders without entering into their Karmic cycle.

For example sharing space, food, energy, aquantances, friends, paying the rent, romantic partners in similar space.

She’s a poison if she is a true psychopath/sociopath or has strong personality disorders why do you want to be in the same area as this poison?

You have learned, seen, observed, gained experience and knowledge…Not sure what else you want. To play a game with poison?

They will know that something is up as you will change your behavior with this knowledge. To be honest you have most likely given off intimations that you know already and she is activly trying to be one step ahead of you.

Move on and create the reality you want. If it’s observing psychopaths and dancing a fine line of observation and not getting involved then best of luck but by observing you are involved.

Go accomplish you goals and wants.

You are implying that I stay in the current situation for the mere pleasure of observing a case study. Let's flip the coin.
Other parameters in game make me choose to stay to allow me to build what's necessary to exactly 'move on and accomplish my goals', as you stated.
In the meantime, strategic enclosure is practiced by minimizing contact as much as possible (notably eye contact, see Perseus and Medusa). Awareness is therefore required and a kind of dance takes place, one that can turn into a burning hall, indeed. That's why I neither search to play, but to contain the fire as best as I can, for as long as to allow me to finish the task yet to be accomplished to leave. And then being able to fly my wings (or Pegasus' ones) once having beaten the Gorgon properly.
I didn't say it was easy either, I certainly choose to look at it from an opportunistic angle of observing the specimen even more while still in its presence.

 

[ELT]

I had a friend that was in a relationship with a strange women. She would play with her hair and stair at me it was so off I pretended like it wasn’t happening, she was also attacking and combative (with words) assuming negative things about me, saying I’m a certain way and bashing and then she wanted attention from me in a physical way and she said she genuinely loves me.

What did I do? Did I want to see if there was “love” there. Did I want to explore her or get to know or observe her problems more? NO, they are STUPID they do not take life’s hints they don’t want to grow they identify with control and manipulation MAYBE they are a very troubled/learning soul MAYBE but even if that’s the case it’s not our job to take that risk to spend our time that can be for not. they are all about control and manipulations. Words not matching actions, they tease, frame, set up and more… once she knew I knew who she was and I stopped interacting that she couldn’t “feed” off me the texts from her stopped cold Turkey and I rarely see her. My life is too important to have my reality being bent or controlled by the poison.

Looks like another real vampire you got there.

 

[Asa]

The feelings produced by objectification will be dictated by whether or not she thinks the guy is hot. You could have a balding, over weight, nervous, middle aged man and a tall, muscular, successful, handsome and confident guy say the exact same thing, and completely different feelings of 'objectification' will result; on the one hand, an objectification that is experienced as playful, sexy and risqué; and on the other hand, a feeling of objectification that is accompanied by disgust. Its about set, setting and delivery, and who is delivering the message.

I know this from first hand experience, in that I have made similar provocative statements to women that are in essence similar and, dependant on context, had reactions range from desire to disgust.

I remember some years back Cameron Diaz having the courage to state that she 'wants' to be objectified, but the devil will be in the detail.

Same will apply to the overwhelming majority of young women.

 

[Menna]

You are implying that I stay in the current situation for the mere pleasure of observing a case study. Let's flip the coin.
Other parameters in game make me choose to stay to allow me to build what's necessary to exactly 'move on and accomplish my goals', as you stated.
In the meantime, strategic enclosure is practiced by minimizing contact as much as possible (notably eye contact, see Perseus and Medusa). Awareness is therefore required and a kind of dance takes place, one that can turn into a burning hall, indeed. That's why I neither search to play, but to contain the fire as best as I can, for as long as to allow me to finish the task yet to be accomplished to leave. And then being able to fly my wings (or Pegasus' ones) once having beaten the Gorgon properly.
I didn't say it was easy either, I certainly choose to look at it from an opportunistic angle of observing the specimen even more while still in its presence.

I’m not implying anything. I am saying you room with a psychopath, vampire, personality disordered person. It’s best not to. That is what I am SAYING.

You mentioned observing and I’m saying you are involving yourself with this person by doing so and that objectively the damage a person like this can do far out ways the benefits of observing AFTER it is known who they are as you already have the knowledge.

Thank you for saying I was implying so I am able to write the above to clarify.

 

[Menna]

Looks like another real vampire you got there.

The reason I gave my example is that I no longer “got there” she is no longer in my life by using my free will using knowledge and prior lessons I chose not to be involved anymore. Even at the expense of losing/reducing a friendship with her male partner my former good friend. I will always care for him and if he ever needs me I will be there but I can’t be intertwined it’s not my fate it’s his….

You can do this too if you choose.

My intent in replying is to give knowledge and examples from my life.

I am not trying to imply, convince, force or anything in that area. Your life is your life and your soul chose to experience certain things…

All the best.

 

[ELT]

I’m not implying anything. I am saying you room with a psychopath, vampire, personality disordered person. It’s best not to. That is what I am SAYING.

You mentioned observing and I’m saying you are involving yourself with this person by doing so and that objectively the damage a person like this can do far out ways the benefits of observing AFTER it is known who they are as you already have the knowledge.

Thank you for saying I was implying so I am able to write the above to clarify.

And thank you for the above showing that I perceived it as such, therefore my apologies.
I appreciate reading your insights, changing the environment is definitely in the making in this case. It's a matter of getting things ready for it.

 

[ELT]

The reason I gave my example is that I no longer “got there” she is no longer in my life by using my free will using knowledge and prior lessons I chose not to be involved anymore. Even at the expense of losing/reducing a friendship with her male partner my former good friend. I will always care for him and if he ever needs me I will be there but I can’t be intertwined it’s not my fate it’s his….

You can do this too if you choose.

My intent in replying is to give knowledge and examples from my life.

I am not trying to imply, convince, force or anything in that area. Your life is your life and your soul chose to experience certain things…

All the best.

I intended to imply the past tense by using 'got'. Should have I used 'had' to make it more understandable ?
Thanks again for replying, the sharing of experiences is what I can relate to most, to pick the best lessons to adopt.

 

[skymargo]

Unfortunately I faced objectifying of women starting from the very childhood ...I was growing up as a rather good looking girl and most my relatives concentrated on it speaking of my personality and my future. They depreciated everything concerning my brain and soul and praised everything concerning my look...It was a disaster and kinda traumatic experience for naive and open hearted child as I were...Although I studied well at school and finished the University with diploma with honors all they were interested was so to say “selling me for higher price to a prince on the write horse”...Of course if people you care about and respect say to you from the very childhood you’re a beauty and shall use it, a child start thinking like this and I have to accept that a period of my life was connected with it and I even succeeded...but it was their success , while I didn’t feel nor happy nor satisfied with it (their “happily ever after” world turned out to be shallow, dirty and absolutely senseless) and that’s how I realized it was not mine...my soul was always looking for smth deeper and much more meaningful and I said no to this easy and futile way of life and decided “let it be more difficult but mine”...
In Buddhist philosophy they say that beauty is a gift from Universe and I know it IS a gift but only for strong willed (for others it easily may turn into a curse) because it’s connected with so much trouble and temptations... Well, as we know suffering is necessary for spiritual growth so what I have now is only gratitude for all my way that has led me here...

 

[Alejo]

I appreciate reading your insights, changing the environment is definitely in the making in this case. It's a matter of getting things ready for it.

I hope you manage to get out of there soon, if I understood correctly, your roommate has designs upon you... and you think she's probably not good news, on the best case scenario, and a disturbed individual on the worst, so staying sounds like playing with fire, if she is the individual you presume, then I would not underestimate a woman's ability to work her way into what she's after.

I would suggest you take a bit more grounded look at the situation and not so abstract, put another way, if you're living with a predator, a snake let's say, I would not be very comfortable about observing the "specimen", I would want to get away.

So, good luck to you, and godspeed.

 

[ELT]

I hope you manage to get out of there soon, if I understood correctly, your roommate has designs upon you... and you think she's probably not good news, on the best case scenario, and a disturbed individual on the worst, so staying sounds like playing with fire, if she is the individual you presume, then I would not underestimate a woman's ability to work her way into what she's after.

I would suggest you take a bit more grounded look at the situation and not so abstract, put another way, if you're living with a predator, a snake let's say, I would not be very comfortable about observing the "specimen", I would want to get away.

So, good luck to you, and godspeed.

Thank you, I'm as aware as possible not to enter the game she's still playing. As I said, 'observing the specimen' merely is the opportunity on the side and in no way the reason why I stay - she's also a 'tiny predator', which helps in a sense. She still seems to be a master in projective identification, though.
Getting out is clearly the priority. Thank you for the strength, have a good one too.