Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality

This is an old thread but Ariana Grande's performance during Aretha Franklin's funeral attracted attention of Bill Clinton. I wasn't sure if it belonged here or in the 'Tickle Me' section. ;-)


‘Biggest fan’: Bill Clinton trolled for ‘ogling’ pop star Ariana Grande at funeral

Former US President Bill Clinton was slammed and ridiculed on social media after he was caught seemingly mesmerized by pop singer Ariana Grande’s performance during soul legend Aretha Franklin’s funeral in Detroit.
The 25-year-old singer, donning a short black dress and high-heeled shoes, took the stage on Friday for a rendition of Franklin’s hit single ‘(You Make Me Feel Like) A Natural Woman.’ Clinton seated right behind Grande, was captured looking hypnotized by the former Nickelodeon star’s performance.

Some users on social media poked fun at Clinton for ‘ogling’ the singer and even ‘undressing’ Grande with his eyes, suggesting that she had ‘brought him back to life.’
https://twitter.com/x/status/1035606814551724032

https://twitter.com/x/status/1035732102317264896

https://twitter.com/x/status/1035565179545821185

https://twitter.com/x/status/1035569614313414656

Others found the whole situation “uncomfortable,” calling the ex-president’s fascination with Grande “gross” and “creepy.” Commenters also argued that Clinton’s reaction was inappropriate, since Grande was honoring the late soul legend Aretha Franklin, who had passed away on August 16. Others pointed out that Hillary Clinton was also present at the event.

​

Charles West on Twitter

Dennis Nagel on Twitter

Some, however, came to Clinton’s defense, suggesting that the apparent ‘ogling’ is just his usual ‘look.’

Maryann on Twitter
 
Yeah, and then there was also this:


I'm not having high hopes, but I reaally hope that some day these pervs will pay for their crimes.
 
aragorn said:
Yeah, and then there was also this:


I'm not having high hopes, but I reaally hope that some day these pervs will pay for their crimes.
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This is a quote from an earlier post in this thread:

On Tuesday, Grande tweeted that she was getting takeout with boyfriend Mac Miller when a "young boy" followed Miller to the car to tell him how big a fan he was. Grande wrote that, sitting in the passenger seat, "I thought all of this was cute and exciting until he said 'ariana is sexy as hell man i see you, i see you hitting that!!!' *pause* Hitting that? the f**k??"

The encounter made Grande feel "sick and objectified," she wrote; since it happened, she's been "really quiet and hurt." It may seem trivial to some, she continued, but these too frequent reminders that women are viewed as achievements or belongings for which to congratulate fellow men "contribute to women's sense of fear and inadequacy."

"I am not a piece of meat that a man gets to utilize for his pleasure," Grande wrote. "I'm an adult human being in a relationship with a man who treats me with love and respect. ... I felt like speaking out about this one experience tonight because I know very well that most women know the sensation of being spoken about in an uncomfortable way publicly or taken advantage of publicly by a man."
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Referring to the bolded section, I wonder whether she's going to be consistent and issue a similar statement in response to Bill's and the Bishop's behaviour.
 
Considering the bishop was brazen enough to molest Ariana on stage and in front of cameras, i think it's fair, and disturbing, to assume this isn't the first time he's done something like this in public, or in private.
 
Many of her type of women get to that kind positions not through their voice or talent but by giving sexual favors to right kind of people, so what s the big deal.

itellsya said:
Considering the bishop was brazen enough to molest Ariana on stage and in front of cameras, i think it's fair, and disturbing, to assume this isn't the first time he's done something like this in public, or in private.
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It seems she enjoyed it by the looks of it, so if she does not report it there is no molestation looking through eyes of law, but it seems like I mentioned it above -it is not molestation when the right kind of people are at play that can further her career.
Has anyone watched Sasha Baron Cohen episode Who is America? with that American actress:

 
Ant22 said:
I think it's fair to say that Ariana Grande brought up a very important topic. Simply because I doubt there is a girl who has never been in that very situation of disrespectful (and disgusting) objectification. The above comment by c.a. illustrates very clearly how it feels, thanks for describing the situation.

It's funny how straight men go insane when they are being objectified by gay men but when they do the same to women - she was asking for it because of what she wore, what she said, how she danced or simply because she was sipping on an alcoholic drink.

Unless you were wearing tight shorts, I doubt the situation you described was provoked by your outfit or behaviour. And let me reassure you women get objectified regardless what they wear. I can reassure you of this because I myself am a woman who had men shouting at her from their car in the street when I was running to the corner shop to do my grocery shopping in ripped jeans, sneakers and a baggy t-shirt.



Menna, if this is what you think of celebrities, I would be really amazed if your opinion of women in workplaces, clubs or pubs is any different. Please don't try to convince me I am incorrect, I have heard arguments very similar to what you wrote expressed by my men I know about women they know. I could give you a long speech about what I find hurtful and really disappointing about what you wrote. This topic could be argued till the end of time and I somehow doubt anything I said would make you change your mind.

I would however like to point out that you have a shirtless photo of yourself as your avatar. It makes me wonder whether you don't see anything wrong with objectification because you don't mind being objectified yourself. This is absolutely fine of course, there are women who enjoy this kind of attention too. But there are also people of both sexes who simply do not welcome it. I myself prefer to be assessed wholistically and if someone isn't capable of it, it says a lot about them, not about me.

Hopefully the below post will give you a different perspective:

_
https://www.facebook.com/abrine/posts/10153959293409401



By the way, every girl I shared it with LOVED it and the post went viral when it was first published.
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Hello. I am a straight male who feels disgusted whenever I am objectified by gay males, but I cannot help but objectify attractive women. It is a problem that I have been trying to deal with but try as I might I cannot bring myself to a point where I can think otherwise. I refuse to ie to myself and attractive women possess me. No I do not openly objectify by whistling or yelling or obnoxiously flirting as many men do, but I am very much sexually attracted. I don't think I'm that bad of a person as I am made out to be because I can't help myself with my thoughts. I think even mentally disciplined men are subject to attraction to attractive women and as straight men it is a problem that women can NEVER understand. I am offended in fact that women despise us for having such thoughts because it is something WE CANNOT HELP. And to be frank, we are not purely sexual. As much as sexual aspect is an important aspect of attraction for us, many of us as very wholistic with our approach. I just wish there was better understanding between the two sexes on aspects of attraction as it is NOT all black and white. A hot girl's perspective on a man approaching her is NOT based on purely sexual objectified attraction but something entirely more wholistic though yes as a straight man there are kinks to be worked out as there is a sexual attraction WE CAN'T HELP BUT IF YOU'RE A GOOD PERSON YOU TRY TO WORK ON YOURSELF. I feel many women are in denial or are living in 2 different worlds but that is my skewed perception. Anyways just my 2 cents.
 
I agree that most - if not all - men are unable to stop having "thoughts" about an attractive woman in their presence. That's simply because studies show that men are very visually oriented when it comes to sexual stimulation and this is the result of evolutionary processes and their hormonal make-up. That's why I say that if women understand men, they will take pity on them and dress more modestly, though going to the extreme of wearing a burka is ridiculous. If women make a partial effort from their side, men should have to make an effort from their side to control themselves. Modesty should be taught to young girls as they are growing up, and control of themselves should be taught to young boys.
 
johndeexxxxxx said:
It is a problem that I have been trying to deal with but try as I might I cannot bring myself to a point where I can think otherwise.
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Yeh its an endless battle for me. Every time i think I'm mastering self-control over my lustful urges for any duration, the universe throws the most beautiful intelligent (yet unobtainable) women into my path. I curse the Cosmos for that! I'm forever swinging from practically worshiping women - to almost despising them for their beauty and their seemingly obliviousness to just how sexually alluring they are, as evidenced in hooking up with total muppets. Women know we find them attractive, but i do wonder if they know just how much - at least younger women (I think much older women know - but by then its too late)

Laura said:
That's why I say that if women understand men, they will take pity on them and dress more modestly
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:lol: Yes! We do need to be pitied!
I hope next incarnation all you women will experience being horny straight males - and we will be beautiful skimpy-dressed lesbians :osama:
 
Laura said:
If women make a partial effort from their side, men should have to make an effort from their side to control themselves. Modesty should be taught to young girls as they are growing up, and control of themselves should be taught to young boys.
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What would men controlling themselves entail? I'm honestly asking and have ideas myself, but I think this could be a good discussion. My idea is that controlling the self would be done by not ogling women, not catcalling, keeping our hands to ourselves and not hounding a woman to go on a date. Those are what come to my mind as far as what should be taught to young boys, but maybe there are other behaviors that I'm not thinking of that could be taught as well.
 
Beau said:
What would men controlling themselves entail? I'm honestly asking and have ideas myself, but I think this could be a good discussion. My idea is that controlling the self would be done by not ogling women, not catcalling, keeping our hands to ourselves and not hounding a woman to go on a date. Those are what come to my mind as far as what should be taught to young boys, but maybe there are other behaviors that I'm not thinking of that could be taught as well.
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I guess a big part of the equation might be to keep in mind as firmly as possible, especially when someone peaks ones interest, that what is going on right now is most likely purely chemical/biological/mechanical in nature and that one shouldn't base ones actions blindly on the arising sensations and thought patterns; realizing that what is going on is essentially the strong biological drive to spread ones genes. And then essentially doing the opposite of what the drive demands.

For example, you see someone that peaks your interest and if you know that what is going on is more biological/sexual then anything (which can be tricky I guess sometimes, since it might not always be that way) then it probably isn't such a good idea to go into "flirt mode" with that person since that can go out of hand quickly.

Just some thoughts that might help or not. Similarly, woman I guess have to exert other kinds of controls that only they understand and know how to implement.
 
Beau said:
What would men controlling themselves entail? I'm honestly asking and have ideas myself, but I think this could be a good discussion. My idea is that controlling the self would be done by not ogling women, not catcalling, keeping our hands to ourselves and not hounding a woman to go on a date. Those are what come to my mind as far as what should be taught to young boys, but maybe there are other behaviors that I'm not thinking of that could be taught as well.
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I think that some of the attitudes and behaviors that were routinely taught to boys back in the day are about right. At the same time, girls were taught to behave modestly, more or less. I think a pretty good median was achieved in the 40s and 50s. After that, it was all downhill.
 
PerfectCircle said:
I think sexualization of singers and actors, together with shows like "Sex and the City" made control of modesty no longer possible.
You add 50 shades of grey, Kardashians and perverted song vids and it becomes irreversible.
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Yes. Funny thing: a few years back, when I was having to do lengthy infrared saunas to recover from surgery on my arm, I got a boxed set of the old Perry Mason shows to watch while doing the sauna. I started at the beginning and I was paying attention to the way the production was put together. This was back at the very beginning of TV shows and they were figuring things out. There were some massive bloopers, but it was fun. Women were portrayed a certain way that was not totally realistic, but did represent a certain attitude toward them, and the behavior of men toward women: all very squeaky clean.

Then, curiously, and I think it was at the beginning of season 5 or 6 or 7 , the producer's name changed and all of a sudden, the portrayal of women changed dramatically. It was a series of small things, such as a woman appearing on the witness stand with her dress flopping off her shoulder and her bra strap showing and acting like a floozy. You really have to watch it to get what I mean. And if you pay attention to the names of the producers and directors, you might get a clue.
 
Beau said:
What would men controlling themselves entail? I'm honestly asking and have ideas myself, but I think this could be a good discussion. My idea is that controlling the self would be done by not ogling women, not catcalling, keeping our hands to ourselves and not hounding a woman to go on a date. Those are what come to my mind as far as what should be taught to young boys, but maybe there are other behaviors that I'm not thinking of that could be taught as well.
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I agree with you Beau, I would add that I think looking is ok, IMO it's almost impossible not to, but not ogling.

There was an interesting story I heard (pretty sure it was a youtube interview) and I wish I could remember the source, it was basically about a woman who was a hard core feminist (and lesbian) who denounced all men as misogynists etc She then for what ever reason I can't remember, started taking testosterone. As the story goes she was walking down the street one day and saw a pretty lady coming the other way, she really wanted to NOT turn around and look at her rear, but to her dismay couldn't help herself. So I thnk Laura's explanation earlier hits the nail on the head for me.

Laura said:
I agree that most - if not all - men are unable to stop having "thoughts" about an attractive woman in their presence. That's simply because studies show that men are very visually oriented when it comes to sexual stimulation and this is the result of evolutionary processes and their hormonal make-up. That's why I say that if women understand men, they will take pity on them and dress more modestly, though going to the extreme of wearing a burka is ridiculous. If women make a partial effort from their side, men should have to make an effort from their side to control themselves. Modesty should be taught to young girls as they are growing up, and control of themselves should be taught to young boys.
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