Ariana Grande and the question of appropriate expression of sexuality

A person needs to be free of sexual provocation so that they can think independently of their sexual urges at least long enough in childhood to mature and submit them to moral restraints as they would other impulses. Sexual abuse tends to disrupt this process or derail it by associating sexuality with overwhelming shame that can't be processed. A person is then trapped with sexual urges they cannot process and feel they must satisfy them, 'liberate' them or somehow or get rid of them. Without the willpower naturally developed in the process they tend to be gullible, easily manipulated and unable to think critically.

So abuse generally has a large role in the expression of negative sexuality and immaturity in general.

This is made worse by the male aggression engineering the Cs have mentioned which makes the process more difficult from the outset.
 
Yeah I guess that would make things a lot more complicated for anyone. For me on a personal note I'm not sure if I suffered sexual abuse or not its one of those old nightmares and vague memories. Its likely though and as far as healthy sexuality and ideal relationships can't say I've seen any examples. Would it be better to get in a relationship or stay single while working on oneself? Pros and con's to both unfortunately
 
Sexual abuse can be something as simple and seemingly innocuous as someone telling you dirty jokes at too young an age. And the abuse doesn't really have to be sexual in nature for it to affect a person's sexual development. Really, we all have this problem to some extent. It is difficult if not impossible to realize all the ways it affects us, because we think with the patterns we learned from our early experiences.
 
monotonic said:
Sexual abuse can be something as simple and seemingly innocuous as someone telling you dirty jokes at too young an age.

The word abuse is generally used in two ways

1. the improper use of something.
eg "alcohol abuse"

2. cruel and violent treatment of a person or animal on a repeated or regular basis

In the context of telling a sexual joke to a young person and labeling it as sexual abuse, are you using it in the first sense or the second? Or something else? I think it is important to clarify as radical neo-liberal thinking has a tendency to frequently use the second meaning in a context which calls for the first meaning.
 
Sorry should have said more info about myself in the first place. Sinece im a virgin expressing sexuality has been really awkward for me I mean I wouldn't argue its a virtue however. So these discussion s seem of value to avoid unnecessary mistakes and spot blimdspots. What's the right way to handle these issues woth possible sexual abuse in your past?
 
I thought I'd post an excerpt from Gurdjieff's 'Meetings with remarkable men' that seems relevant to this discussion:

Meetings with Remarkable Men said:
Father Borsh had a very original idea of the world and of man.

His views on man and the aim of man's existence differed completely from those of the people round him and from everything I had heard or gathered from my reading.
I will mention here certain thoughts of his which may serve to illustrate the understanding he had of man and what he expected of him.

He said: 'Until adulthood, man is not responsible for any of his acts, good or bad, voluntary or involuntary; solely responsible are the people close to him who have undertaken, consciously or owing to accidental circumstances, the obligation of preparing him for responsible life.

'The years of youth are for every human being, whether male or female, the period given for the further development of the initial conception in the mother's womb up to, so to say, its full completion.

'From this time on, that is, from the moment the process of his development is finished, a man becomes personally responsible for all his voluntary and involuntary manifestations.

'According to laws of nature elucidated and verified through many centuries of observation by people of pure reason, this process of development is finished in males between the ages of twenty and twenty-three, and in females between the ages of fifteen and nineteen, depending on the geographical conditions of the place of their arising and formation.

'As elucidated by wise men of past epochs, these age periods have been established by nature, according to law, for the acquisition of independent being with personal responsibility for all one's manifestations, but unfortunately at the present time they are hardly recognized at all. And this, in my opinion, is owing chiefly to the negligent attitude in contemporary education towards the question of sex, a question which plays the most important role in the life of everyone.

'As regards responsibility for their acts, most contemporary people who have reached or even somewhat passed the age of adulthood, strange as it may seem at first glance, may prove to be not responsible for any of their manifestations; and this, in my opinion, can be considered conforming to law.

'One of the chief causes of this absurdity is that, at this age, contemporary people in most cases lack the corresponding type of the opposite sex necessary, according to law, for the completion of their type, which, from causes not dependent upon them but ensuing, so to say, from Great Laws, is in itself a "some-thing not complete".

'At this age, a person who does not have near him a corresponding type of the opposite sex for the completion of his incomplete type, is nonetheless subject to the laws of nature and so cannot remain without gratification of his sexual needs. Coming in contact with a type not corresponding to his own and, owing to the law of polarity, falling in certain respects under the influence of this non-corresponding type, he loses, involuntarily and imperceptibly, almost all the typical manifestations of his individuality.

'That is why it is absolutely necessary for every person, in the process of his responsible life, to have beside him a person of the opposite sex of corresponding type for mutual completion in every respect.

'This imperative necessity was, among other things, providentially well understood by our remote ancestors in almost all past epochs and, in order to create conditions for a more or less normal collective existence, they considered it their chief task to be able to make as well and as exactly as possible the choice of types from opposite sexes.

'Most of the ancient peoples even had the custom of making these choices between the two sexes, or betrothals, in the boy's seventh year with a girl one year old. From this time on the two families of the future couple, thus early betrothed, were under the mutual obligation of assisting the correspondence in both children of all the habits inculcated in the course of growth, such as inclinations, enthusiasms, tastes and so on.'

I also very well remember that on another occasion the father dean said:

'In order that at responsible age a man may be a real man and not a parasite, his education must without fail be based on the following ten principles.

'From early childhood there should be instilled in the child: Belief in receiving punishment for disobedience. Hope of receiving reward only for merit. Love of God--but indifference to the saints. Remorse of conscience for the ill-treatment of animals. Fear of grieving parents and teachers.

Fearlessness towards devils, snakes and mice. Joy in being content merely with what one has. Sorrow at the loss of the goodwill of others. Patient endurance of pain and hunger. The striving early to earn one's bread.'

Well, this was obviously written in another time and maybe in a different cultural context. But I think it contains some important ideas: for example, the completion of adulthood around the age of 20 and the responsibility that comes with it - looking back, I can say that most of the things I deeply regret happened after that age, when I should have become a responsible adult, but failed to do so.

Also, I think the idea that we need corresponding types as partners is interesting and true. Unfourtunately, in this day and age most people seem to choose the wrong partner for the wrong reasons - and many of us know where that leads to I guess.

Maybe I would add that finding a 'corresponding partner' is not a necessity per se, and contrary to the culture of Gurdjieff's youth, being single is now relatively common in the Western world and a practical option. Still, in such a situation it might be important to still realize the importance of sexual energy and all that, so that one isn't unconsciously controlled by it and/or pushed towards the wrong 'type' of partner. Osit.
 
luc said:
Meetings with Remarkable Men said:
'At this age, a person who does not have near him a corresponding type of the opposite sex for the completion of his incomplete type, is nonetheless subject to the laws of nature and so cannot remain without gratification of his sexual needs. Coming in contact with a type not corresponding to his own and, owing to the law of polarity, falling in certain respects under the influence of this non-corresponding type, he loses, involuntarily and imperceptibly, almost all the typical manifestations of his individuality.

'That is why it is absolutely necessary for every person, in the process of his responsible life, to have beside him a person of the opposite sex of corresponding type for mutual completion in every respect.

Well, this was obviously written in another time and maybe in a different cultural context. But I think it contains some important ideas: for example, the completion of adulthood around the age of 20 and the responsibility that comes with it - looking back, I can say that most of the things I deeply regret happened after that age, when I should have become a responsible adult, but failed to do so.

Also, I think the idea that we need corresponding types as partners is interesting and true. Unfourtunately, in this day and age most people seem to choose the wrong partner for the wrong reasons - and many of us know where that leads to I guess.

Way thanks Luc - I can totally relate to the issues of becoming a fully responsible adult - If I am totally honest, it took me until I was about 34!

But about types - I am wondering what types are being referred to? Would it be the enneagram type of type? Or type in more of a 4th way sense...Perhaps along the lines of the types of personality deformations Mouravieff mentions...or perhaps type in terms of which lower center naturally dominates? I wonder. Ideas?
 
BHelmet said:
But about types - I am wondering what types are being referred to? Would it be the enneagram type of type? Or type in more of a 4th way sense...Perhaps along the lines of the types of personality deformations Mouravieff mentions...or perhaps type in terms of which lower center naturally dominates? I wonder. Ideas?

Well, the way I understand it, it's more of a down to earth thing, as in: two people who have different strengths and weaknesses who can help each other grow, whose personalities complement each other - who 'bring out the best in each other' as they say. I guess dominant lower centers can have something to do with it, but that's only one aspect. Or so I understand it.

Or maybe think about unhealthy relationships to contrast what may be meant here: for example men who turn into little boys in a relationship where the partner becomes the new 'mother', and the men are just left battling to 'get away' with this or that important to them. Or, men who completely dominate their wives because of insecurities and jealousy, thus squashing any development their wives as well as themselves. I think many people enter such relationships precisely because unconsciously, they want such dynamics, maybe because of past trauma or programming... Hence the need for a wise choice, which - as G. points out - in the past was often done not by the couple itself, but by family members and others.
 
[quote author= luc][quote author= BHelmet]But about types - I am wondering what types are being referred to? Would it be the enneagram type of type? Or type in more of a 4th way sense...Perhaps along the lines of the types of personality deformations Mouravieff mentions...or perhaps type in terms of which lower center naturally dominates? I wonder. Ideas?[/quote]

Well, the way I understand it, it's more of a down to earth thing, as in: two people who have different strengths and weaknesses who can help each other grow, whose personalities complement each other - who 'bring out the best in each other' as they say. I guess dominant lower centers can have something to do with it, but that's only one aspect. Or so I understand it.[/quote]

Yes, to cover each other blind spots. To be a compassionate but a honest mirror for each other.

In essence everyone is a mirror of 'God', reflection of 'God' in one way or the other. Which we are all a part of. (remember, that we are a fragmented soul unit and all that, the whole of creation actually)

Doesn't mean that people will approach it as such, but that's what it is. That's how you interact with 'God' and each other accordingly. That's what Love is all about.

And to explain it more down to earth, Outside the 'esoteric circle' people only use each other for the Self. Inside the Esoteric people work more towards the intent and purposes of the Universe and by that help each other learn and cover each other blind spots. So a relationship between 2 people that is build on that is in a way a 'service to others' relationship because learning is at play.

Though, chances of such a relationship happening is not something you should try to hope for to much. First, how many people are there in the esoteric circle. ( I am not saying that I am part of the esoteric circle ) secondly, what are the chances that it will click.

Well, maybe it's not about hoping, anticipating etc. I suppose it's all about having Faith in the Universe that everything will fall in place because. (Which you don't really know how this will play out)

I don't want to crush anyone dreams but I basically just explained that you will propably be single forever in this World if you happen to be part of the Esoteric circle. I mean, lol, it just is. Or isn't it.

OSIT.
 
bjorn said:
Inside the Esoteric people work more towards the intent and purposes of the Universe and by that help each other learn and cover each other blind spots. So a relationship between 2 people that is build on that is in a way a 'service to others' relationship because learning is at play.
Some people just call woking for the purposes of the universe "serving god". They may not have esoteric evolution in mind, but they can recognize their faults and desire to become, in simple terms, better people.

bjorn said:
I don't want to crush anyone dreams but I basically just explained that you will propably be single forever in this World if you happen to be part of the Esoteric circle. I mean, lol, it just is. Or isn't it.
OSIT.
I don't think being in a relationship with the opposite sex necessarily precludes esoteric evolution. (Laura for example) In fact, it can provide the shocks, impressions and friction required for esoteric growth. Certainly it can be a pit of quicksand but I think it can cut both ways - ha ha - for better or worse!

Let's say a person has a feature in their false personality which is jealousy (which is, of course, a very STS quality.) And that person has an aim to purge that from their soul. What better way to confront and deal with this than by being in a relationship?
 
[quote author= BHelmet]I don't think that last generalization is quite accurate. I know plenty of religious people who are not of an esoteric bent, but they are committed to serving each other. The obvyatel type might fit in here as well. I guess it depends on what exactly you mean by 'esoteric circle'.[/quote]

I meant the esoteric circle Gurdjieff spoke about:

Falls in line what is mentiond here: https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Exoteric,_mesoteric,_and_esoteric_circles

I have been raised catholic so I think what you meant about serving God. But I think it's rather limited, they offer good deeds and look out for each other. But when it comes to world affairs they simply don't see the importance of getting involved or understand that devoloping our inner-world and outer-worlds are equally important. Conscience isn't just a set of scripted behavior, it's about being engaged with the world around you.

I am glad that the current pope made a remark about this, he said that simply going to church each Sunday means nothing if you can't stand up for your fellow men


[quote author= BHelmet]Some people just call woking for the purposes of the universe "serving god". They may not have esoteric evolution in mind, but they can recognize their faults and desire to become, in simple terms, better people.[/quote]

Yes I think so, lots of people practise Love to the best to their knowledge.


[quote author= BHelmet]I don't think being in a relationship with the opposite sex necessarily precludes esoteric evolution. (Laura for example) In fact, it can provide the shocks, impressions and friction required for esoteric growth. Certainly it can be a pit of quicksand but I think it can cut both ways - ha ha - for better or worse! [/quote]

I am not saying that you have to be in a relationship. Just that if both have a higher Aim, it can offer growth. That's all.


[quote author= BHelmet]Let's say a person has a feature in their false personality which is jealousy (which is, of course, a very STS quality.) And that person has an aim to purge that from their soul. What better way to confront and deal with this than by being in a relationship?[/quote]

I don't know if I am getting what you trying to say so please correct me if I missing the point. But simply getting in a relationship because you want to purge jealousy is egoistic and self-serving. It’s ofcourse something you can work on if you happen to be in a relationship.


- I don't know all about this myself, it are just some thoughts I had about the subject.
 
bjorn said:
BHelmet]I don't think being in a relationship with the opposite sex necessarily precludes esoteric evolution. (Laura for example) In fact said:
[quote author= BHelmet]Let's say a person has a feature in their false personality which is jealousy (which is, of course, a very STS quality.) And that person has an aim to purge that from their soul. What better way to confront and deal with this than by being in a relationship?

I don't know if I am getting what you trying to say so please correct me if I missing the point. But simply getting in a relationship because you want to purge jealousy is egoistic and self-serving. It’s ofcourse something you can work on if you happen to be in a relationship.

- I don't know all about this myself, it are just some thoughts I had about the subject.

I did not mean that one should get in a relationship for the challenge of overcoming jealousy. But if a person is in some kind of committed relationship and then discovers esoteric work on the self, well, it can be the perfect laboratory.
 
[quote author= BHelmet]By 'precludes' I meant 'makes impossible'. It kind of sounded like you were saying that if a person is engaging in work on the self it likely means going it alone. But from your comments here it sounds like maybe we are saying the same thing and disagreeing about nothing.[/quote]

The short discussion at hand was mostly strictly about relationships from what I understood, so I only responded on that. Not the whole ballpark of it. So yes, it seems we are saying the same thing ;)


[quote author= BHelmet]I did not mean that one should get in a relationship for the challenge of overcoming jealousy. But if a person is in some kind of committed relationship and then discovers esoteric work on the self, well, it can be the perfect laboratory. [/quote]

I think so to, and perhaps it is also like 'bootcamp' every now and them? It's a struggle after all.


- That said I am not ready for such a relationship at all. I also first need to become a better and complete obyvatel.
 
onemen made a post on the C's session yesterday and I thought it really applies to the work aspect of the sexual center.

Gurdjieff talks about the "abuse of sex" and how the sex center get drained by other centers. The trouble with the sex center is that it doesn't differentiate between good and bad like all other centers so it's energy get's used for whatever random stimulus it links to. Gurjieff's quote is pretty self explanatory.

But it is not about this that I wish to speak. You must understand where lies the chief evil and what makes for slavery. It is not in sex itself but in the abuse of sex. But what the abuse of sex means is again misunderstood.

People usually take this to be either excess or perversion. But these are comparatively innocent forms of abuse of sex. And it is necessary to know the human machine very well in order to grasp what abuse of sex in the real meaning of these words is. It means the wrong work of centers in relation to sex, that is, the action of the sex center through other centers, and the action of other centers through the sex center; or, to be still more precise, the functioning of the sex center with energy borrowed from other centers and the functioning of other centers with energy borrowed from the sex center.” […]

Abnormalities in the working of the sex center require special study. In the first place it must be noted that normally in the sex center as well as in the higher emotional and the higher thinking centers, there is no negative side.

In all the other centers except the higher ones, in the thinking, in the emotional, in the moving, in the instinctive, in all of them there are, so to speak, two halves-the positive and the negative; affirmation and negation, or ‘yes’ and ‘no,’ in the thinking center, pleasant and unpleasant sensations in the moving and instinctive centers.

There is no such division in the sex center. There are no positive and negative sides in it.

There are no unpleasant sensations or unpleasant feelings in it; there is either a pleasant sensation, a pleasant feeling, or there is nothing, an absence of any sensation, complete indifference.

But in consequence of the wrong work of centers it often happens that the sex center unites with the negative part of the emotional center or with the negative part of the instinctive center. And then, stimulation of a certain kind of the sex center, or even any stimulation at all of the sex center, calls forth unpleasant feelings and unpleasant sensations.

People who experience unpleasant feelings and sensations which have been evoked in them through ideas and imagination connected with sex are inclined to regard them as a great virtue or as something original; in actual fact it is simply disease. Everything connected with sex should be either pleasant or indifferent.

Unpleasant feelings and sensations all come from the emotional center or the instinctive center. “This is the ‘abuse of sex.’

It is necessary, further, to remember that the sex center works with ‘hydrogen’ 12. This means that it is stronger and quicker than all other centers. Sex, in fact, governs all other centers.

The only thing in ordinary circumstances, that is, when man has neither consciousness nor will, that holds the sex center in submission is ‘buffers.’ ‘Buffers’ can entirely bring it to nought, that is, they can stop its normal manifestation. But they cannot destroy its energy. The energy remains and passes over to other centers, finding expression for itself through them; in other words, the other centers rob the sex center of the energy which it does not use itself.

The energy of the sex center in the work of the thinking, emotional, and moving centers can be recognized by a particular ‘taste,’ by a particular fervor, by a vehemence which the nature of the affair concerned does not call for.

The thinking center writes books, but in making use of the energy of the sex center it does not simply occupy itself with philosophy, science, or politics-it is always fighting something, disputing, criticizing, creating new subjective theories.

The emotional center preaches Christianity, abstinence, asceticism, or the fear and horror of sin, hell, the torment of sinners, eternal fire, all this with the energy of the sex center. …Or on the other hand it works up revolutions, robs, bums, kills, again with the same energy.
The moving center occupies itself with sport, creates various records, climbs mountains, jumps, fences, wrestles, fights, and so on.

In all these instances, that is, in the work of the thinking center as well as in the work of the emotional and the moving centers, when they work with the energy of the sex center, there is always one general characteristic and this is a certain particular vehemence and, together with it, the uselessness of the work in question.Neither the thinking nor the emotional nor the moving centers can ever create anything useful with the energy of the sex center. This is an example of the ‘abuse of sex.’

“But this is only one aspect of it. Another aspect consists in the fact that, when the energy of the sex center is plundered by the other centers and spent on useless work, it has nothing left for itself and has to steal the energy of other centers which is much lower and coarser than its own.

And yet the sex center is very important for the general activity, and particularly for the inner growth of the organism, because, working with ‘hydrogen’ 12, it can receive a very fine food of impressions, such as none of the ordinary centers can receive. The fine food of impressions is very important for the manufacture of the higher ‘hydrogens.’

But when the sex center works with energy that is not its own, that is, with the comparatively low ‘hydrogens’ 48 and 24, its impressions become much coarser and it ceases to play the role in the organism which it could play.

At the same time union with, and the use of its energy by, the thinking center creates far too great an imagination on the subject of sex, and in addition a tendency to be satisfied with this imagination. Union with the emotional center creates sentimentality or, on the contrary, jealousy, cruelty. This is again a picture of the ‘abuse of sex.’“

“What must be done to struggle against the ‘abuse of sex’?” asked somebody present.

G. laughed. “I was just waiting for that question,” he said. “But you already ought to understand that it is just as impossible to explain to a man who has not yet begun to work on himself and does not know the structure of the machine what the ‘abuse of sex’ means, as it is to say what must be done to avoid these abuses.

Right work on oneself begins with the creation of a permanent center of gravity. When a permanent center of gravity has been created everything else begins to be disposed and distributed in subordination to it.

The question comes to this: From what and how can a permanent center of gravity be created?

And to this may be replied that only a man’s attitude to the work, to school, his valuation of the work, and his realization of the mechanicalness and aimlessness of everything else can create in him a permanent center of gravity.

The role of the sex center in creating a general equilibrium and a permanent center of gravity can be very big. According to its energy, that is to say, if it uses its own energy, the sex center stands on a level with the higher emotional center. And all the other centers are subordinate to it. Therefore it would be a great thing if it worked with its own energy. This alone would indicate a comparatively very high level of being. And in this case, that is, if the sex center worked with its own energy and in its own place, all other centers could work correctly in their places and with their own energies.
[quote/]
 

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