Asking for Trouble

[mcb]

Is it possible that you two may have a kind of rehearsed routine in which you engage, and that a smile from you at a certain point is enough to signal "let's go at it again." If so, is there a reward in it for you? How does it make you feel when this happens?

Well it's certainly happened a couple of times since I committed to stop correcting and apparently switched from verbal to non-verbal. The original reward for the correcting was validation of "I'm Oh So Clever". Now I'm smiling because I'm amused at myself that I've got this impulse programmed to correct things that are completely trivial - even when it's against my own interests.

That is one way of looking at it, a somewhat paradoxical way. But what if it really is in your own interests? (Think about different kinds of interests you might have, postitive and negative, open and hidden.)

But I guess that's still "I'm Oh So Clever" coming into play because I'm congratulating myself for my self-observation and spiritual development. Which probably looks pretty smug and Ding Dong Round 3 ensues. But there's no reward in causing the argument - I feel bad all day afterwards, which is why I'm posting about it, looking for a way out of that cycle.

Which is why I asked how it makes you feel. While you might not regard it as a reward, you are "rewarded" with a bad feeling that lasts all day, and when asked what the reward might be, that is what you came up with. If nothing else, doesn't this behavior let you "be right?" (About what?) And feeling bad all day can provide excuses to do or not do this and that, excuses that you might not have otherwise. Can you think of any examples?

What I'm looking for is: When I spot what I think is a mistake, make a conscious decision as to whether it's in everyone's best interests that I correct it, without looking like a smug know-it-all. And of course it's often only an opinion - as in the case of pronouncing a word.

How are you "looking?" Are you self-observing, noting your inner state together with your interactions with the world? As things are happening? Without judgement? Do you think that spotting mistakes and correcting them (or not) will lead to non-mechanical behavior? Has it so far? How would you know that it was in someone else's best interest for you to correct their mistake?

Going back to your earlier posts, what do you hope to gain from "lessons"--spiritual progress? What does that mean to you?

 

[PepperFritz]

Why did you feel the need to correct people?

Oh boy. There's no short answer for that one, but here goes:

I grew up in an extremely dysfunctional family, with narcissistic/psychopathic "parents" who viewed their children as objects they owned, and actively discouraged their success in life. I was forced to leave home at 16, and probably would have ended up just another statistic were it not for my one saving grace: I was born with a very keen intelligence. On the basis of my "smarts" alone, I managed to obtain an education and eventually had a very successful career in the publishing industry.

I suffered from "fraud syndrome" for many years, with the corresponding need to show off my "brain", which had been my ticket to a better life. There was a constant feeling that if I let the mask slip for an instant, I would be exposed for what I really was: white-trash. It made me a terrible snob: I remember having lunch with a cousin I had not seen in years; we both came from the same background, and were the only members of our whole extended family to have become educated and leave the trailer-park behind. She had actually earned MORE degrees than I had, but I remember feeling slightly horrified that she had never endeavoured (as I had) to lose her lower-class "accent". I'm ashamed to remember the way I thought then, but it was all related to my own insecurity and sense of inferiority, which I projected onto others.

I also worked very hard to maintain a sense of "order" in my life (obviously a reaction against the out-of-control "disorder" of my home life), which also played a part in my need to "correct". I was a highly-skilled book editor who gained great satisfaction (and professional rewards) from an ability to put order to words and ideas, and that carried over to my personal life as well.

I make myself sound much worse than I probably was, believe it or not I actually had many redeeeming qualities as well, hehe. But it took some deeply traumatic experiences, a bunch of therapy, and hitting rock bottom to finally be "shocked" out of my worst "programs". It was very freeing to finally realize -- at a very deep level, not just intellectually -- that I am a machine no better and no worse than anyone else. But, of course, uncovering the real "I" is an ongoing process that I have barely begun.

Hope that answers the question somewhat. Oh, and by the way, I still have the impulse to correct people, and sometimes I carry through with that impulse. But I usually feel like a doofus afterwards.

 

[PepperFritz]

What I'm looking for is: When I spot what I think is a mistake, make a conscious decision as to whether it's in everyone's best interests that I correct it, without looking like a smug know-it-all.

When I get the impulse to correct (or, an equally annoying habit, offer up some nugget of intellectual trivia for all to admire), I stop to visualize in my mind the effect it is likely to have for all concerned (based on past experience) and that in itself is usually enough to stop me flapping my lips....

 

[Ben]

When I get the impulse to correct (or, an equally annoying habit, offer up some nugget of intellectual trivia for all to admire), I stop to visualize in my mind the effect it is likely to have for all concerned (based on past experience) and that in itself is usually enough to stop me flapping my lips....

I can identify with this trait also, and it helps me to remember that very few people give any indication that they cared that they were wrong in the first place. What would seem like grossly inaccurate mistakes to me were simply not an issue for them, or they would react negatively because they perceived me as exercising some kind of superiority over them. I now try to exercise external consideration in they way I go about correcting people, including considering whether or not it is neccessary to say anything at all.

 

[anart]

I can identify with this trait also, and it helps me to remember that very few people give any indication that they cared that they were wrong in the first place. What would seem like grossly inaccurate mistakes to me were simply not an issue for them, or they would react negatively because they perceived me as exercising some kind of superiority over them. I now try to exercise external consideration in they way I go about correcting people, including considering whether or not it is neccessary to say anything at all.

Yep, and unless it's a situation where someone is going to get harmed or killed, it's usually not necessary to say anything at all. Self-importance, inner-considering and 'right man syndrome' all come in to play in such situations. If the correction is more important to you than the person you are correcting, then don't do it - it only serves you, not them - at least that's my short take on it.

 

[mcb]

People usually won't "correct" someone that they don't know, if it is someone that they might like to know better. It is different in an established relationship, and there are different ways to approach it, producing different results. You can support someone by telling them about something they really do need to know about, in a way that makes them feel supported, not attacked. Or you can use "correcting" as a kind of weapon. You don't always know what will come of it. Sometimes you discover that you were mistaken.

I have seen that words make a difference. Using "you" words to describe what you see as a mistake puts the other person on the defensive. Using "I" words instead helps maintain a connection with the other person. This comment stood out for me earlier:

...What I'm looking for is: When I spot what I think is a mistake, make a conscious decision as to whether it's in everyone's best interests that I correct it, without looking like a smug know-it-all...

First of all how, how would I know what is in someone else's best interest? I can choose to do things that might be in someone else's interest, but I can't do things "for" them. Second, I can be a smug know-it-all and not look like it. Is that really going to help?

There might be a different way to approach the problem. I sing in a choir, in the tenor section (I sing 2nd alto or tenor, and there are many altos and few tenors, therefore...). Choir rehearsal is all about "corrections." There is another tenor with a very strong voice but who has a pitch recognition problem. He's OK once he memorizes a piece, but if you play or sing a pitch for him, often he can't match it. He doesn't read music at all, so he can only learn by listening. Our choir doesn't spend very much time practicing individual parts, and he doesn't usually ask for help.

I rejoined that group last December after a long break and, of course, I tried to help. I enjoy singing more when we sound good, and it seems that the choir and the audience benefit as well. But my "feedback" wasn't well received. The person became defensive, and insisted that he knew the parts. So I tried another tack, with different words, trying to make it less personal. Same response. So I tried a non-verbal approach, re-arranging the tenor section so that he could hear the correct notes for his part. But this had no effect at all.

In the mean time, I was noticing that I was becoming upset, no matter what I tried to do. If this person didn't show up for practice--which was rather often--I enjoyed myself and I was able to do things with both the tenor and bass sections that they said they appreciated. When I wasn't distracted by negative feelings, I noticed more and I was more likely to ask the director to go over a part that we were having trouble with. So I began to address my negative feelings, and I focused on improving my singing. And I discussed what I had noticed with the choir director and let it go.

I came to realize that what I was seeing was part of a larger picture. This other person talks during rehearsal and cracks crude jokes. Or just "dumb" ones. He says things to the women that seem inappropriate to me, which they tend to ignore. If it bothers them, I don't see that. He often misses rehearsals but usually shows up for performances, not knowing his part, and he sings whatever he feels like. But in some way it all seems to work. It may actually not need "correcting," at least not what I had in mind.

My negative feelings did need attention. Apart from what was happening during rehearsal, I sometimes become lost during a performance, and I find that there is no one else singing the part correctly. This can be very upsetting. But the real problem is that I am holding back because I am afraid of making a mistake. And that causes more problems during performances (because other people are relying upon on me so that they don't get lost) than there would be if I occasionally sang the wrong thing. But if I hold back, I get to blame other people. So what I am working on now is performing consistently, and being willing to make noticeable mistakes. And staying focused so that I don't make them.

In this situation, at least, it seems that I needed to turn things inside out in order to address the problem. I couldn't correct it "out there." In fact, I may have been disturbing some kind of established "ecosystem." But there were things that I needed to correct with what I was doing, and skills that I needed to develop. As I work on that, it may have a beneficial effect on the group as a whole, and that, actually, is why they invited me to join them in the first place.

 

[PepperFritz]

mb: Thank you for such an insightful post. I particularly appreciate your comparison of a group dynamic to a delicately balanced "ecosystem" -- and the reminder to make sure something's actually "broke" before undertaking to "fix" it....

 

[Bernhard]

People usually won't "correct" someone that they don't know, if it is someone that they might like to know better. It is different in an established relationship, and there are different ways to approach it, producing different results. You can support someone by telling them about something they really do need to know about, in a way that makes them feel supported, not attacked. Or you can use "correcting" as a kind of weapon. You don't always know what will come of it. Sometimes you discover that you were mistaken.

Very true and well said. I can relate to it as I'm becoming more conscious of my effect on others.

 

[TheSpoon]

I'm curious if your wife detects an air of superiority in your corrections, or simply objects to being corrected in general.

Yup, well she's definitely accused me of having a smug grin, but in the case of singing she's pretty sensitive to that, smug or not.

The original reward for the correcting was validation of "I'm Oh So Clever". Now I'm smiling because I'm amused at myself that I've got this impulse programmed to correct things that are completely trivial - even when it's against my own interests.

That is one way of looking at it, a somewhat paradoxical way. But what if it really is in your own interests? (Think about different kinds of interests you might have, positive and negative, open and hidden.)

Sorry mb, I've lost you here. I see "best interests" being defined as positive. I can accept that I have behaviours that produce negative results, but I can't get my head around how that would constitute a "reward".

..but then, I'm also thinking about children who act up to get attention, and I've also been known to enjoy throwing a dramatic hissy-fit from time to time... So I can sort of see where you're coming from with this, just can't quite apply it in this context.

While you might not regard it as a reward, you are "rewarded" with a bad feeling that lasts all day, and when asked what the reward might be, that is what you came up with. If nothing else, doesn't this behaviour let you "be right?" (About what?) And feeling bad all day can provide excuses to do or not do this and that, excuses that you might not have otherwise. Can you think of any examples?

Hmm, did I think I was "right"? Let me re-read those earlier posting... Ok I've got a barely tangible grasp on it: When I'm criticised for correcting, I act out "Hurt and Upset sulk" which is her cue for "Poor Baby, I'm sorry". Unfortunately if I've left for work by this point then I'm stuck in "Hurt and Upset" because my audience is missing.

But I don't think that particular "reward" is what's being sought after by correcting, I think that's purely an automatic response to the criticism that follows - "OK you've hit me with the stick, now I want my carrot back" sort of contract.

What I'm looking for is: When I spot what I think is a mistake, make a conscious decision as to whether it's in everyone's best interests that I correct it.

How are you "looking?" Are you self-observing, noting your inner state together with your interactions with the world? As things are happening? Without judgement? Do you think that spotting mistakes and correcting them (or not) will lead to non-mechanical behavior? Has it so far? How would you know that it was in someone else's best interest for you to correct their mistake?

I have the feeling that you've anticipated the answers to these questions, but I'm not sure what you're leading me towards here. I'll try and answer them simply and hopefully you'll get back to me with your intention.

What I meant by "looking for" in this context is "this is my ambition". I was self observing from the point at which I realised my wife wasn't happy with me. Before that I'd noted that I was resisting an impulse to correct, but I wouldn't really say it was self-observing. Spotting mistakes and correcting them is already mechanical behaviour, so I think I'm trying to stop that by putting in a break between the impulse and the response. Of course I can't know what's in someone else's best interests - my best guess would be to ask myself if I'd like to be corrected in that situation.

Going back to your earlier posts, what do you hope to gain from "lessons"--spiritual progress? What does that mean to you?

Difficult question, answering it is making me feel a tad exposed. Yes I'd hope to gain spiritual progress which I take to mean a maturation of self, greater understanding of 'what is', but also an unburdening - in some ways a return to childhood excitement, joy and openness. Also becoming more skilful (ie less automatic and/or annoying as in this case) in my responses to other people so that they'll like me more (this is a hidden motive I wouldn't normally admit to).

Thanks others for your posts also, very helpful.

 

[mcb]

While you might not regard it as a reward, you are "rewarded" with a bad feeling that lasts all day, and when asked what the reward might be, that is what you came up with. If nothing else, doesn't this behaviour let you "be right?" (About what?) And feeling bad all day can provide excuses to do or not do this and that, excuses that you might not have otherwise. Can you think of any examples?

Hmm, did I think I was "right"? Let me re-read those earlier posting... Ok I've got a barely tangible grasp on it: When I'm criticised for correcting, I act out "Hurt and Upset sulk" which is her cue for "Poor Baby, I'm sorry". Unfortunately if I've left for work by this point then I'm stuck in "Hurt and Upset" because my audience is missing.

But I don't think that particular "reward" is what's being sought after by correcting, I think that's purely an automatic response to the criticism that follows - "OK you've hit me with the stick, now I want my carrot back" sort of contract.

OK, just curious. :)

If you keep exploring the negative rewards, I think you can find more. At least that's what happens when I do. Again, I mentioned the "bad feeling all day" because you mentioned it when I asked about rewards the first time.

What I'm looking for is: When I spot what I think is a mistake, make a conscious decision as to whether it's in everyone's best interests that I correct it.

How are you "looking?" Are you self-observing, noting your inner state together with your interactions with the world? As things are happening? Without judgement? Do you think that spotting mistakes and correcting them (or not) will lead to non-mechanical behavior? Has it so far? How would you know that it was in someone else's best interest for you to correct their mistake?

I have the feeling that you've anticipated the answers to these questions, but I'm not sure what you're leading me towards here. I'll try and answer them simply and hopefully you'll get back to me with your intention.

Actually, I was just asking if you were using a particular approach described by Ouspensky/Gurdjieff, Mouravieff and, in another form, Castaneda. "Self-observation" can mean different things. This is a very specific meaning -- a specific practice.

What I meant by "looking for" in this context is "this is my ambition". I was self observing from the point at which I realised my wife wasn't happy with me. Before that I'd noted that I was resisting an impulse to correct, but I wouldn't really say it was self-observing. Spotting mistakes and correcting them is already mechanical behaviour, so I think I'm trying to stop that by putting in a break between the impulse and the response. Of course I can't know what's in someone else's best interests - my best guess would be to ask myself if I'd like to be corrected in that situation.

Here I was asking about your method -- "how are you looking" -- and I mentioned some of the elements of the specific practice I had in mind. Other elements include altering what you do while you are observing (intentionally breaking out of habitual behavior), and "struggl[ing] against the expression of unpleasant emotions," as Ouspensky put it. But the practice is carried out very much in the moment, observing and adjusting as things are happening. I think I am seeing elements of that in your answers, but I am not sure.

I have my own practice in which I am engaged. Asking you questions like these actually helps me to learn. I tend to ask questions about things I read that can be understood in more than one way, or that have implications that might not be obvious. Always, they are questions I ask myself as well.

One way you can possibly know if something you do is in someone else's best interest, after the fact, is if they tell you it was. If you pay attention over time, you can discover a lot about what works well and what doesn't. If you know what to pay attention to.

Going back to your earlier posts, what do you hope to gain from "lessons"--spiritual progress? What does that mean to you?

Difficult question, answering it is making me feel a tad exposed. Yes I'd hope to gain spiritual progress which I take to mean a maturation of self, greater understanding of 'what is', but also an unburdening - in some ways a return to childhood excitement, joy and openness. Also becoming more skilful (ie less automatic and/or annoying as in this case) in my responses to other people so that they'll like me more (this is a hidden motive I wouldn't normally admit to).

You don't have to answer, of course, but if you don't then there is no opportunity to hear about it from a different point of view. :)

Is there anything in this, potentially, for anyone else, or does the word "gain" make you think only of things that come to you? Is spiritual progress strictly a personal matter?

 

[TheSpoon]

Is there anything in this, potentially, for anyone else, or does the word "gain" make you think only of things that come to you? Is spiritual progress strictly a personal matter?

I had a while last year when I thought I had something worth "teaching" the world, but the point of "an STS vehicle does not learn to be an STO candidate by determining the needs of another" was well made to me and now I'm restricting myself to helping others - spiritually speaking - only when asked. It's much easier when you see an old person struggling with shopping, practical physical assistance is much easier to give without Ego getting in the way.

So other that what someone might get out of stumbling across my writing, I'd say yes it is strictly a personal matter.

Although of course I'd hope that in making spiritual progress myself, I'd spread less negativity and absorb more bad karma so I suppose it would be of indirect benefit to others. Hopefully people would be happier coming out of an interaction with me than before they went in. Hopefully.

And to the extent that the members of this site represent a colinear network, I suppose group progress is made. Funny, just seems like the last couple of days there have been a few "full cups" joining in. Maybe I'm just seeing that because I've started making the "New Posts" page my point of entry.

Where you able to answer your own question here?

 

[mcb]

Where you able to answer your own question here?

Yes, I have been finding answers to some of my questions through reading and posting here, in this thread and others. I often come across things I hadn't noticed while "checking my facts" before posting.

 

[FireShadow]

Yes, I have been finding answers to some of my questions through reading and posting here, in this thread and others. I often come across things I hadn't noticed while "checking my facts" before posting.

TheSpoon, whether or not you intended this thread to help others, I have been helped. I have been helped by your willingness to engage in the process and share it with us - I get to observe this process and compare it to mine. I have been helped by all the others questions and suggestions. Thank you all.

I have recently been working on my habit of "lecturing others" on what is good for them. Although I have made some progress on this in the past, it has resurfaced in a new form. When I came upon this thread yesterday, I found much "food for thought".

Thankfully, I also have wonderful friends! Today, I was "lecturing" one such friend and he had the inspiration to ask me if he should lecture me on a bad habit of mine. I said "yes, but I probably won't listen any more than you do". Then I invited him to go ahead because I realized I needed this. So, I listened to his "lecture" to me and although I won't be quitting smoking (my bad habit) any time soon, I did hear how it sounded from the other side. Very enlightening. I find that I don't much care for being on the other side of a "lecture"! - Not such a big surprise, really, but actually experiencing this brought it all home for me. I apologized to him and promised to work on this behavior. As I said, wonderful friends...

 

[TheSpoon]

TheSpoon, whether or not you intended this thread to help others, I have been helped. I have been helped by your willingness to engage in the process and share it with us

Thank you FireShadow, always nice to be appreciated. Please call me "Spoon".

Were you able to answer your own question here?

Yes, I have been finding answers to some of my questions through reading and posting here, in this thread and others

That should remind me not to ask closed-ended questions! What was your own answer to the question: "Is spiritual progress strictly a personal matter?"

 

[ark]

"Is spiritual progress strictly a personal matter?"

As long as you are alive, nothing is a strictly personal matter. When you are dead - I don't know.