Asking for Trouble

[mcb]

Were you able to answer your own question here?

Yes, I have been finding answers to some of my questions through reading and posting here, in this thread and others

That should remind me not to ask closed-ended questions! What was your own answer to the question: "Is spiritual progress strictly a personal matter?"

Not "strictly." Progress implies change, and change affects people around me at the very least. That is something I have to be very aware of. But beyond that, I have what you might say is a "life is a potluck" view of things. I aim to bring more than I consume. What would the world be like if everyone took more than they contributed? (Look around.)

So I would like for my progress to have a positive effect on the world around me, through my choices of things to do. I think it has to, if I am to be successful. I don't claim that I am there yet, but I am learning.

 

[TheSpoon]

So I would like for my progress to have a positive effect on the world around me, through my choices of things to do. I think it has to, if I am to be successful. I don't claim that I am there yet, but I am learning.

You sound like you have a goal in mind, or, at least, criteria that will qualify success? (Please don't say 'Yes' ;) )

 

[mcb]

So I would like for my progress to have a positive effect on the world around me, through my choices of things to do. I think it has to, if I am to be successful. I don't claim that I am there yet, but I am learning.

You sound like you have a goal in mind, or, at least, criteria that will qualify success? (Please don't say 'Yes' ;) )

I remember that in my late teens I was noticing things about my life that I thought could use improvement, and I worked on them, seeming to make progress. Eventually, though, I would sometimes find myself more or less back where I started. I wish I could remember specific issues, but I don't. That was 40 years ago, and what I remember is my frustration and my realization that progress, especially "inner" progress, isn't always what it seems to be.

Ever since then I have had a sense of going in circles, in spite of having worked through a number of my major life issues. Now I think that I am ready to learn something about how not to always go in circles. I sense that there is something more I can do with my life, that I haven't found yet, and I am exploring to discover what it might be. I think that it should involve more than just doing things for myself, but much of the time so far it really hasn't. I am starting to practice self-observation, and I am reading--most recently Ouspensky. Exploring the SOTT Forum led to a "required reading list," and that is what I will be reading next.

Earlier in my life I was very concerned with "understanding," but I didn't actually do very much. I think now that this corresponds to what Ouspensky/Gurdjieff had to say about "knowledge" and "being." I developed along the line of knowledge, with little or no development of "being." With my life experiences, that is not very surprising. From the time I was very young, I was discouraged from being. I was coerced into appearing to be something that I wasn't. So I guess I can say that what I am doing now is trying to discover what I can be.

I know I am being vague at times, but I try to stay within the question. Does this give you some idea of my goal?

 

[anart]

I know I am being vague at times, but I try to stay within the question. Does this give you some idea of my goal?

For what it's worth, I don't think you're being vague at all. I think Spoon is either missing the points you've made in your last two posts, or he is trying to ask questions without directly asking them, since it seems he is not understanding what you've explained.

What goal do you have in mind, Spoon?

Most people on a learning path realize very early on that 'goals' change with development, often changing from one day to the next as one understands more about oneself and the world, which it appears is what mb is trying to express, so just wondering what you're really trying to understand, Spoon.

 

[Ryan]

For what it's worth, I don't think you're being vague at all. I think Spoon is either missing the points you've made in your last two posts, or he is trying to ask questions without directly asking them, since it seems he is not understanding what you've explained.

FWIW, that is exactly my impression as well. The thought keeps occurring that Spoon wants something that he isn't getting, even if he might not know exactly what that is. Maybe that's incorrect though?

 

[TheSpoon]

I sense that there is something more I can do with my life, that I haven't found yet, and I am exploring to discover what it might be. I think that it should involve more than just doing things for myself

Thanks for that, mb, I have the same feeling.

For what it's worth, I don't think you're being vague at all. I think Spoon is either missing the points you've made in your last two posts, or he is trying to ask questions without directly asking them, since it seems he is not understanding what you've explained.

What goal do you have in mind, Spoon?

No, I don't think she's being vague either. What moved me on to a new question was mb saying "if I am to be successful", which suggested to me that there was an endpoint - or goal - to be reached. As I see it, the end point seems to be 7th Density. Mb seems to be describing a direction - and I hope to head the same way - rather than a destination.

The thought keeps occurring that Spoon wants something that he isn't getting, even if he might not know exactly what that is. Maybe that's incorrect though?

No, I think you're correct Ryan. If I knew what it was I wanted, I'd be able to get there in a straight line.

I've found this discussion useful though, working through my "correcting" behaviour has been good work for me.

 

[mcb]

<snip>

What goal do you have in mind, Spoon?

No, I don't think she's being vague either. What moved me on to a new question was mb saying "if I am to be successful", which suggested to me that there was an endpoint - or goal - to be reached. As I see it, the end point seems to be 7th Density. Mb seems to be describing a direction - and I hope to head the same way - rather than a destination.

I see. Undertaking esoteric work does not guarantee any sort of success. One might not accomplish anything, or might form something that acts against future growth. I don't know this as an absolute fact, but the experiences I have already had in this life, as well as what I have seen in some of the other people I have met along the way, suggest to me that it is possible to "work" oneself into a dead end. So yes, I do think in terms of "success."

My direction is that I see, as it were, someone over there shining a flashlight in the dark, and I go see what they are doing. The "flashlight" at the moment is the book The Myth of Sanity, which I began reading last night. It is oneof the "big four" mentioned by Laura in the Recapitulation topic here, and it is indeed shining a light on my issues, which include dissociation and PTSD. And while I had been making progress with those issues already, I came back here because I had positive experiences with the people and the materials in the past, even though what they were doing eluded me to a large extent. I am making connections I need to make, and beginning to understand the work here better. (http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8926) There is a direction in that, but it isn't like planning a weekend outing. It's like groping in the dark and being careful not to trip.

The thought keeps occurring that Spoon wants something that he isn't getting, even if he might not know exactly what that is. Maybe that's incorrect though?

No, I think you're correct Ryan. If I knew what it was I wanted, I'd be able to get there in a straight line.

I've found this discussion useful though, working through my "correcting" behaviour has been good work for me.

One thing I have noticed is that you sometimes seem to sidestep questions. I tried earlier, unsuccessfully, to understand what you believe "self observation" entails. And then there is the above question about your goal. You might want to elaborate beyond saying that you 'hope to head in the same direction as me.'

 

[TheSpoon]

One thing I have noticed is that you sometimes seem to sidestep questions. I tried earlier, unsuccessfully, to understand what you believe "self observation" entails. And then there is the above question about your goal.

Do I? How interesting. I thought I was trying hard to answer them. I note that I also pressed you twice on not answering questions - how typical for the person who's at fault to accuse another of the same behaviour!

Unfortunately I missed your self-observation question because I interpreted it as 6 separate questions (which indicates to me that I should probably go back and re-read ISOTM) which I attempted to answer in #24 above.

When you said: "Are you self-observing, noting your inner state together with your interactions with the world? As things are happening? Without judgement? ", I answered that yes I was, although on reflection I'd say that I was observing with judgment, so that is perhaps not self-observing. But it's still more "present" and less automated than my normal state of being. I've written more about my attempts at self-remembering in these threads, any pointers appreciated:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8850
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8182

So apologies for missing the intent there. If you had instead asked "What does self-observation entail?" then there would have been no escape for me.

As for the question of "Goal", I have no immediate one (except perhaps finishing the next book), which may be why Ryan suggested that I perhaps didn't know what I wanted. That's why I was interested in where you are trying to get "to" - I do not have an answer of my own. I also took an interpretation of "manipulation in order to feed" (on my part) from Ryan's question, which was good to look at.

I responded to Anart that I saw the end-point/goal as being 7th Density, but that's in some ways similar to death (as in death of self), so it's perhaps not a very useful answer. It seems like you're saying "success" is to not get stuck with the work. Perhaps as long as we keep moving and learning, the question of success/goal/attainment (which appears to me to have STS written all over it) becomes irrelevant.

 

[Oxajil]

Well if you have read ISOTM, then you probably should know something about your machine. Especially the lies you tell yourself and the many little i's you consist of. You might have some knowledge, but to truly understand it is a different thing. I think a change in being is necessary.

Also this important excerpt of ISOTM, I think fits here.

p.75

"The difference between knowledge and understanding becomes clear when we realize that knowledge may be the function of one center. Understanding, however, is the function of three centers. Thus the thinking apparatus may know something. But understanding appears only when a man feels and senses what is connected with it.

"We have spoken earlier about mechanicalness. A man cannot say that he understands the idea of mechanicalness if he only knows about it with his mind. He must feel it with his whole mass, with his whole being; then he will understand it.

"In the sphere of practical activity people know very well the difference between mere knowledge and understanding. They realize that to know and to know how to do are two different things, and that knowing how to do is not created by knowledge alone. But outside the sphere of practical activity people do not clearly understand what 'understanding' means.

Also

The best formulation of those that have been put forward is the wish to be one's own master. Without this nothing else is possible and without this nothing else will have any value.

 

[TheSpoon]

Continuing a series of "batting from the back foot" postings...

I was going to ask if you had any suggestions for how one works on a "change in being", but considered that it would be quite lazy of me to ask the question without looking for an answer myself first!

Found this in ISOTM (P.289), which also touches on what mb was saying about working into a dead-end:

"...the enrichment of being begins with a new and unaccustomed functioning of this machine. We know that a man has five centers: the thinking, the emotional, the moving, the instinctive, and the sex. The predominant development of any one center at the expense of the others produces an extremely one-sided type of man, incapable of further development."

And this gem from Ouspensky's "The Fourth Way" (P.54) which was exactly what I was looking for:

Q. How does one develop one's being?
A. All that you have learnt, all that you have heard about the possibility of development, all refers to being. First of all, development of being means awakening, since the chief feature of our being is that we are asleep. By trying to awake we change our being; this is the first point. Then there are many other things: creating unity, not expressing negative emotions, observation, study of negative emotions, trying not to identify, trying to avoid useless talk — all this is work on being.

Any others?