Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand Psychopath?

Ayn Rand Psychopath?

Reading this article and comments: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/196478-The-sociopathic-epidemic
prompted me to check out Ayn Rand and her admiration of murderer, Hickman. I found this:
http://michaelprescott.net/hickman.htm

This article includes some snippets from Rand's diaries/journals and sure sounds like a psychopath to me!
 
Re: Ayn Rand Psychopath?

My son distanced himself from me at about the time he became an Ayn Rand fan(atic). I think he was persuaded to read Rand by one of his high school teachers. Hickman was a psychopath - little doubt about that. Thanks for this post Laura - very educational.
 
Re: Ayn Rand Psychopath?

Mark said:
My son distanced himself from me at about the time he became an Ayn Rand fan(atic). I think he was persuaded to read Rand by one of his high school teachers. Hickman was a psychopath - little doubt about that. Thanks for this post Laura - very educational.

Well, using this article, one could make a good case that Ayn Rand's works should not be read by impressionable young people. I would send it to the school board and demand that they remove Rand from the curriculum.

Just another example of how our society has been ponerized via educational systems.
 
Re: Ayn Rand Psychopath?

I am left dumbfounded by this. The twist and turns of the psychopathic mind are astounding. From both articles I find that the path to rationality has been created by illusions so great it is truly mind boggling. It has always been a concern that when some get a hold of information that it will be used in a ponerological way to gain credibility. As in Robin of Berkley's article being us vs them, what does he purpose to do about it? I see it in the news daily, how convenient it is to forget facts and create a debate based on lies which are projected as truth. As the SOTT editors point out

The sociopathic epidemic

Robin of Berkeley
AmericanThinker.com
Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:30 EST

There's so much crime out here that most of the time, the residents are numb. We have waves of takeover restaurant robberies and you barely hear a peep.

Comment from SOTT: The prevalence of crime in California is not for lack of a tough prison system, so there must be other factors which are causing high levels of crime.

California turns out to be a perfect laboratory setting to weigh the merits in the form of individualism advocated by Ayn Rand because it is there that residents repeatedly vote against repealing Proposition 13, an anti-tax measure.

Proposition 13 limits the amount of taxes that can be levied on property. The tax monies that would have gone into infrastructure such as bridges, schools, freeways, prisons, and funding to local governments have been eliminated. In exchange, the property owners of California get to keep a greater share of their income.

As a result of this policy, California has suffered one crisis after another:
•The possibility that California will become America's first failed state.

•The likelihood of sustaining massive cuts in education spending

•A rise in unemployment

•Loss in revenues generated by tourism due to hotel foreclosures
Perhaps the increase in the levels of misery and desperation is an explanation for the increase in crime?

Or the likes of Rush Limbaugh making his absurd comments. This is but one example:
LIMBAUGH: "Women were doing quite well in this country before feminism came along." (Radio show, quoted in FRQ, Summer/93)

REALITY(from fair.org): Before feminism, women couldn't even vote
Yet he forced his female, spanish as a primary language maid several years ago to by illegal drugs for him.

Here is an outline of all this guy has claimed to be true.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1895

So back to my point of the delusions of psychopaths, it stirs reactions from other psychopaths, or people having a paramoralistic us vs them attitude, to act upon their own delusions and creates a domino effect. To what extent are these people willing to go?
 
Re: Ayn Rand Psychopath?

Laura said:
Reading this article and comments: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/196478-The-sociopathic-epidemic
prompted me to check out Ayn Rand and her admiration of murderer, Hickman. I found this:
http://michaelprescott.net/hickman.htm

This article includes some snippets from Rand's diaries/journals and sure sounds like a psychopath to me!

I think Hildegarda references this link in another thread on Rand.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=10890.msg103573#msg103573

Mods: Could these two threads be merged?
 
Re: Ayn Rand Psychopath?

Well, the other thread is in books... so where to put the discussion? Books or Ponerology? It actually looks to me like Rand was a "tool" of the Elites.

If you ever want to read the counterpoint to "Atlas Shrugged," have a look at "Ceremony of the Innocent" by Taylor Caldwell.
 
Re: Ayn Rand Psychopath?

I merged the topics and left it in Political Ponerology with the newer thread's title; but the older posts are on the top, that's the only way I could make the merger work.
 
Hildegarda said:
I merged the topics and left it in Political Ponerology with the newer thread's title; but the older posts are on the top, that's the only way I could make the merger work.

That works. I changed the title of the initial post to reflect both threads.
 
One of the things I always ask folks ga-ga over Rand is "Did she ever pay back her relatives for giving her room and board as well as the large amounts of starter money for her Hollywood aims? Did you guys?"

Shuts up the blowhards every time. It's a piece of hypocritical contradiction so at odds with Rand's own philosophy, it can't be explained away.
 
This thread is enlightening and informative as these are some areas I hadn't known about Ayn Rand. Indeed, indeed. Once upon a time, long ago, when I left Christianity, I began reading Ayn Rand books such as Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead. I also had watched a movie about Ayn Rand and the movie, The Fountainhead. I thought, then, that she was about individualism, and of course, Objectivism. I was seeking at the time objectivism and individualism in breaking away from Christian dogma. I did not care for the rape, debasement, and coldness... as cold as the marble quarried in The Fountainhead. This put a kink in what I thought about Ayn Rand. In the movie about her, when she died, she was presented in a casket with a huge dollar sign above it. Ayn Rand, in my opinion, was brilliantly astute of human nature.

I have one book left of Ayn Rand's called: The Art of Fiction, A Guide For Writers and Readers. I opened the book at random to quote from it and see something interesting by her. This is from the chapter Characterization, pp. 84-85:

Your characterizations will never be better than your power of observation. A human mind does not first conceive of floating abstractions and then, by means of them, recognize the concretes; in order properly to grasp an abstraction, you must derive it from concretes. To prepare your subconscious for writing proper characterization, therefore, you must be a good observer and introspector.

You constantly react to people--you approve or disapprove, like or dislike, are encourage or uneasy. You estimate emotionally everyone you meet. Learn to introspect in the sense of accounting for what in a person causes your reaction. Do not go through life saying: "I don't like X. Why? How do I know? I just don't like him." That will never make you a writer. Instead, if you feel a strong dislike for someone, then, as your artistic assignment, identify what you dislike, and by what means you observed it.

For instance, a man is rude to you, and you do not like it. What in particular is rude? Is it the implication of what the man says? Is it his voice or manner? Why do you dislike it? File this in your subconscious. Another time, you meet a man who is charming. Do not merely say: "I don't know why, but I like this man. He's wonderful." Identify: What is charming about him? How does he convey it? How did you observe it? File this away. Be being a constant, conscious valuer of people, you gather the material from which you will draw your future characterizations.

If you have learned a great many abstractions that yo have not yet connected to concretes, do the reverse. For instance, if you decide that you favor independence, observe which words or gestures or manners of people convey independence to you. And, conversely, observe what conveys dependence. What conveys honesty? What conveys dishonesty? You can observe these characteristics only by their outward manifestations--by the words, actions, gestures, and subtler mannerisms of people.

When your subconscious is stocked with such well-filed material--when you concretes are filed under the proper abstractions and your abstractions are amply illustrated by concretes--then you can approach an assignment such as "present a characterization of Roark." And then, if you tell yourself that he is independent, honest, and just, your subconscious will throw at you the kind of concretes that make you feel, while writing a scene: "Yes, Roark would say this, but he would not say that."

The best, most natural dialogue is usually written as if the writer is listening to dictation. You might get stuck on any particular point and have to question yourself; but normally, dialogue writes itself. You have an idea of the scene, and when you write, the dialogue "just comes" to you---exactly as, in a conversation, your own answers come to you. That is, you speak from your premises, knowledge, and estimate of the situation.

In writing dialogue, you must react on two or more premises. As Roark, you speak from a certain premise; as Keating, you say something else. Your mind must know the connection between certain abstractions and their concrete expressions so well that you can write for three or five or any number of people, constantly switching premises in your mind. You cannot do this by conscious intention. You must reach the stage where the process feels "instinctive"---where, the moment when you speak for Roark, you have a sense of what he would say, and when Keating has to answer, you have a sense of what he would say.

This sudden "feel" of a character is not a mystical talent. In the process of writing, you feel that you "just know" what Roark or Keating would say; but this feeling means only that your understanding of the premises involved has become automatic.

When I wrote the Roark-Keating scen, I did not think consciously of those implications of each line that I explained earlier. But when I write a line inspirationally, I can tell myself why it is in character, and why another line would be out of character. To judge the objective validity of what you write, you must be able afterward to tell yourself why a given line is right for one character (what it conveys) and why something else is right for another character (what is conveys). After the writing, you must be able to do the kind of analysis I did of the Roark-Keating scene.

And one more quote from the book, pp. 41:

My heroes in The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, Roark and Galt, hold no contradictory value; it is through their friends, or the woman they love, that they are put into inner conflicts. The main line of the inner conflict of each concerns his (proper) love for a woman who, having not yet reached his level, is in some way still tied to the conventional world. Through her, the hero is thrown into conflict with a world in which he now has something at stake. In the case of Roark and Dominique, the fault is Dominique's; she is guilty of holding a mistaken, though not irrational, philosophy. Once she comes to hold the right philosophy, there is no clash, and the hero's two values, love and career, coincide. (What if the hero fell in love with an irrational woman who never corrected her views? A rational man would not do that, or not for long. When he grasped the woman's irrationality, he would feel no love.)

This illustrates my premise that evil is impotent. It is only the good that can hurt the good. As Galt tells Dagny in Atlas Shrugged: "My actual enemies are of no danger to me. You are."
 
Atlas Shrugged - Thoughts?

It is by far my favourite novel. It is her self-described magnus opum and one that will forever be remembered as one of the greatest works ever written. If you've heard of the book you've likely heard of the 100-page speech, a speech that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. It is a book worth reading and though it starts slowly it is one book that everyone should read at least once. Her philosophy comes alive in a world that parallels many of the faults that lie within our real world, and she drives the story with witty twists and significant character development. Bravo Ayn Rand, bravo.

If you've read it, what'd you think? If you haven't, why haven't you?
 
Re: Atlas Shrugged - Thoughts?

KKP said:
It is by far my favourite novel. It is her self-described magnus opum and one that will forever be remembered as one of the greatest works ever written. If you've heard of the book you've likely heard of the 100-page speech, a speech that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. It is a book worth reading and though it starts slowly it is one book that everyone should read at least once. Her philosophy comes alive in a world that parallels many of the faults that lie within our real world, and she drives the story with witty twists and significant character development. Bravo Ayn Rand, bravo.

If you've read it, what'd you think? If you haven't, why haven't you?

Hi KKP,

You may want to familiarize yourself with this thread: Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand Psychopath?

Edit: Threads are now merged.
 
Hildegarda said:
Her philosophy is that the person's value is only in what he produces, or what income he pulls. It places no value on human emotion and feeling whatsoever (in practice, of course, it was that she was perfectly entitled to experienced anything and act upon it, but others in her circle were required to totally subjugate themselves to her in this respect). And here is what she says about one of her characters:

“In her journal circa 1928 Rand quoted the statement, "What is good for me is right," a credo attributed to a prominent figure of the day, William Edward Hickman. Her response was enthusiastic. "The best and strongest expression of a real man's psychology I have heard," she exulted. (Quoted in Ryan, citing Journals of Ayn Rand, pp. 21-22.)“
The author's conclusions speak for themselves:
“By the appraisal of any normal mind, there can be little doubt that William Edward Hickman was a vicious psychopath of the worst order. That Ayn Rand saw something heroic, brilliant, and romantic in this despicable creature is perhaps the single worst indictment of her that I have come across. It is enough to make me question not only her judgment, but her sanity.”

I disagree wholeheartedly with the manner in which you have interpreted the theory of Ayn Rand's Objectivism. It’s very fitting that you only would use a deconstructed summary of her philosophy in an attempt to denounce it. It is NOT only the man’s produced goods that she values in her philosophy, and it absolutely involves feeling the grandest of human emotions. I have no idea how or where you picked up the idea that Rand was against the necessity of emotions, but I assure you that emotions were an intricate part of her philosophy. Rand believed that a person’s mind—his logical and rational thinking processes, his ability to be free and choose as he wills—is what guides his happiness and his production of goods is a measure of his mind.
There are two defining quotes of Ayn Rand that summarize her philosophy:

1. That man is the hero of his story.

2. I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine

However you deduced that emotions have no part to play I have no idea. Perhaps you were trying to throw that in there and hoping that no one would notice it.

In the very same journal that Michael Prescott refers to Ayn as “worshipping” Hickman, Ayn also refers to Hickman as a "monster". Prescott skips over the important bits of the journal and takes away the words that he wants to alienate Ayn with. It is the psychology of the man that Ayn admires—the absolute detachment from needing to please others and living for the sake of oneself; the perfect narcissist. You have insulted the integrity of discussion by taking Prescott literally and his assertions as if they were truths.

Furthermore: Ayn Rand, a sociopath? If belonging in society means being a sheep then you may as well call me a sociopath as well.
 
Re: Ayn Rand Psychopath?

Laura said:
Reading this article and comments: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/196478-The-sociopathic-epidemic
prompted me to check out Ayn Rand and her admiration of murderer, Hickman. I found this:
http://michaelprescott.net/hickman.htm

This article includes some snippets from Rand's diaries/journals and sure sounds like a psychopath to me!

How great it is to know that you are fit to claim who is a psychopath and who isn't.

Prescott did a terrible job of cutting and pasting from Ayn Rand's journals. In the very same journal Ayn refers to Hickman as a monster, something that Prescott conveniently decided to leave out.

A psychopath? Based on what?
 
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