Awake at Home

[cubbex]

As for the difference between 'considering' and 'identifying', I would say that internal considering is when you are concerned with or considering your own feelings when interacting with others.

Thank you for that. So does that mean external considering is when you consider other people's feelings before deciding how to act?

There is too what could be considered as part of the identification called consideration I think so, I don't remember very well, it is when you care to much what others will say about you, loosing yourself in that.

For self remembering, I thought it was remembering (in past) yourself so the observer is you in your mind as an object of study or something similar, to be able to find the roots of our wrong behavior, so observing the observer. But observing the observer I was able to do when I didn't trusted myself, and it was fun and I thought I was crazy, three voices in my head is not that usual, me, the observer, and the watcher. But it's not tired, with time you'll see it as normal and kind of fuse them, the important thing of self-remembering if that's the case, is to doubt and not accept as that easy your own speculations and thoughts so you may not fall in assumptions and wrong concepts. Loose yourself.

 

[anart]

For self remembering, I thought it was remembering (in past) yourself so the observer is you in your mind as an object of study or something similar, to be able to find the roots of our wrong behavior, so observing the observer.

Yes, but self-remembering also occurs in the present. It is to be awake enough to realize ones own motivations, behavior, thoughts and actions in real time, as they happen.

But observing the observer I was able to do when I didn't trusted myself, and it was fun and I thought I was crazy, three voices in my head is not that usual, me, the observer, and the watcher.

That sounds more like your imagination may have carried away your self-observation.

But it's not tired, with time you'll see it as normal and kind of fuse them, the important thing of self-remembering if that's the case, is to doubt and not accept as that easy your own speculations and thoughts so you may not fall in assumptions and wrong concepts. Loose yourself.

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean by the above, but I think it is a language issue.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I would say that your first example is closer to identifying. Internal consideration usually has more to do with with feeling that we are not properly valued by others. That is how external considering can quickly switch to internal considering. Whenever we are worried about how we are treated or what others think about us we are considering internally. There's a kind of flavor to it of a feeling of injustice to ourselves by the world or by others.

Yep. Some more examples of inner considering: worrying about how others will perceive us (e.g. stage fright, fear of speaking in public, fear of speaking to members of the opposite sex), worrying about 'hurting other people's feelings' and all other sorts of excuses we come up with when we choose not to confront someone about something that needs confrontin'.

 

[obyvatel]

I think what Gurdjieff calls "inner considering" often stems from "identification". When we are in a state of identification, we lose the ability to observe/remember ourselves and in such a state, we are not able to differentiate between our own inner states and feelings and others.

For example of different degrees of identification, let us take the instance when something makes me angry.

If I am completely identified with the anger, I will act or think with anger and not even realize until much later that I was angry. In this case, if I try to practice any considering it is only going to be inner considering.

If when anger arises, I am able to say "I am angry", it shows that I am not completely identified and at least can reflect a little bit.

If I can say "I feel angry", then this may be a less identified state than the previous one where I am able to realize that the "feeling function" is involved in the anger and not the entire "me".

If I can further say "I sense anger in my body", it means that I realize how the feeling of anger has penetrated into the body leading to tensions in muscles for example.

If I can say "X is saying this, and I can feel anger and sense the body getting tense. Given what I know about X and the current situation, what is the most appropriate response that I can give" - then I think we are getting closer to external consideration and self-remembering and further away from identification.

If we are in a state of identification, we cannot practice external considering which means we take into account the state of others before acting.

Here is a relevant portion of ISOTM which talks about identifying and considering.

[quote author=ISOTM]
"Identifying is the chief obstacle to self-remembering. A man who identifies with anything is unable to remember himself. In order to remember oneself it is necessary first of all not to identify. But in order to learn not to identify man must first of all not be identified with himself, must not call himself 'I' always and on all occasions. He must remember that there are two in him, that there is himself, that is 'I' in him, and there is another with whom he must struggle and whom he must conquer if he wishes at any time to attain anything. So long as a man identifies or can be identified, he is the slave of everything that can happen to him. Freedom is first of all freedom from identification.

"After general forms of identification attention must be given to a particular form of identifying, namely identifying with people, which takes the form of 'considering' them.

"There are several different kinds of 'considering.'

"On the most prevalent occasions a man is identified with what others think about him, how they treat him, what attitude they show towards him. He always thinks that people do not value him enough, are not sufficiently polite and courteous. All this torments him, makes him think and suspect and lose an immense amount of energy on guesswork, on suppositions, develops in him a distrustful and hostile attitude towards people. How somebody looked at him, what somebody thought of him, what somebody said of him—all this acquires for him an immense significance.
"And he 'considers' not only separate persons but society and historically constituted conditions. Everything that displeases such a man seems to him to be unjust, illegal, wrong, and illogical. And the point of departure for his judgment is always that these things can and should be changed. 'Injustice' is one of the words in which very often considering hides itself. When a man has convinced himself that he is indignant with some injustice, then for him to stop considering would mean 'reconciling himself to injustice.'

"There are people who are able to consider not only injustice or the failure of others to value them enough but who are able to consider for example the weather. This seems ridiculous but it is a fact. People are able to consider climate, heat, cold, snow, rain; they can be irritated by the weather, be indignant and angry with it. A man can take everything in such a personal way as though everything in the world had been specially arranged in order to give him pleasure or on the contrary to cause him inconvenience or unpleasantness.

"All this and much else besides is merely a form of identification. Such considering is wholly based upon 'requirements.' A man inwardly 're-quires' that everyone should see what a remarkable man he is and that they should constantly give expression to their respect, esteem, and admiration for him, for his intellect, his beauty, his cleverness, his wit, his presence of mind, his originality, and all his other qualities. Requirements in their turn are based on a completely fantastic notion about themselves such as very often occurs with people of very modest appearance. Various writers, actors, musicians, artists, and politicians, for instance, are almost without exception sick people. And what are they suffering from? First of all from an extraordinary' opinion of themselves, then from requirements, and then from considering, that is, being ready and prepared beforehand to take offense at lack of understanding and lack of appreciation.

"There is still another form of considering which can take a great deal of energy from a man. This form starts with a man beginning to think that he is not considering another person enough, that this other person is offended with him for not considering him sufficiently. And he begins to think himself that perhaps he does not think enough about this other, does not pay him enough attention, does not give way to him enough. All this is simply weakness. People are afraid of one another. But this can lead very far. I have seen many such cases. In this way a man can finally lose his balance, if at any time he had any, and begin to perform entirely senseless actions. He gets angry with himself and feels that it is stupid, and he cannot stop, whereas in such cases the whole point is precisely 'not to consider.'
[/quote]

 

[cubbex]

Yes, but self-remembering also occurs in the present. It is to be awake enough to realize ones own motivations, behavior, thoughts and actions in real time, as they happen.

AHAH :P that's what I was talking about, but I did not know how to explain myself.

 

[abeofarrell]

Thanks everyone :)

That really helps me.

Now it is time to walk the talk. I wish I had someone here with me in my home to shock me out of slumber when I lapse. As G said, MAN CAN DO NOTHING. To say "I will make an effort" in itself is incorrect. I can only say that at this moment I observe IT as IT types on the forum, and IT will continue to be under observation. Much work to be done and so little time.

 

[Eongar]

On the issue of feeling tired in connection with the Work, Laura once said this:

Being aware is NOT exhausting when the mind has been expanded. It's like learning to drive a car. In the beginning, handling all the pedals and levers and the wheel and watching the traffic, speed, position, seems an impossible task. But soon, all is mastered and one can drive while talking or eating and drinking, etc. So the issue is expanding the powers of the mind which is the point of learning/knowledge and WHY "Knowledge Protects."