'Awakened conscience', DOing, and achieving CRITICAL MASS

[Nienna]

We are here to help people who ask for knowledge.

Yes, we are, but only when they truly ask. Just because people become upset and disturbed about how things are going here on the BBM doesn't mean they are asking for the truth as we know it. We can drop "seeds" that, if they want, they can then follow and learn from. But pushing on them our ideas and the way we see things is going against their free will.

Not everyone is on the same place of the learning cycle. They have their own lessons to learn at their own pace.

Like I said, leaving seeds for them to see, or find, is something that they can do, or not do. As Ennio said, posting articles that we like on Facebook, or Google+, or whatever form of social media we prefer is a better way of doing things than a face to face discussion on why what we know is better than what they know. If they are truly asking, that's a different scenario, but it's not always easy to know if they are truly asking.

We are here to learn from one another and how to interact with other people so they can learn from us and we can learn from them too. They have their stories and view points, we don't know what they know. It is a two way street in my opinion.

Well, yes and no. If a person really, truly wants to know what we know, then, yes, letting them learn from us is okay. A better way of doing this is to teach by example. And, as I said above, leaving seeds for them to sow if they want to.

Are you aware of external consideration and strategic enclosure (of, which, CNS gave you a link to and posted a bit of what was said there)?

You may want to look them up on Casswiki if you're not familiar with these terms.

Gurjieff said that what we learn in The Work must not be shared with others not doing The Work because they would not understand it and would think that we were a bit unbalanced (my paraphrasing). He also said that sincerity with everyone is a weakness. We want to be sincere merely to show others that we are right and they are wrong.

So there is helping others to learn and there is pushing our views on others and going against their free will to learn what they want to learn when they are ready to learn it.

 

[Stefan]

Thank you for the clarification, Nienna. I will look into the links provided.
I will revise my methods, but for now I can only teach people how to be honest to themselves, to be what they truly are without pretending to be what they are not. And that's regardless of the topic of discussion with these people. They take any source of information without ever questioning it and then they use it as basis for their arguments. I strongly oppose that practice. There has to be formed some kind of consensus that no further discussion is needed. The topic of interest can be wide range of things about life, like science, economics, relationships, you name it. I only try to engage Critical Thinking, for me, it is very important.

Gurjieff said that what we learn in The Work must not be shared with others not doing The Work because they would not understand it and would think that we were a bit unbalanced (my paraphrasing). He also said that sincerity with everyone is a weakness. We want to be sincere merely to show others that we are right and they are wrong.

Teachings about The Work I believe requires face to face discussion, it is a very delicate subject and it is not for everyone. We can only be Objective as possible. If we only speak the Truth, people will follow us and they will listen. That way we make more friends and network.

Like for example, I may invite a friend over to have dinner and have a little chat about the secrets of life. He will say, ok! I am so excited, let's talk! So we'll have dinner which is probably going to be extremely irritating to my friend since he would love to know the secrets and I'll never speak a word. Instead, I'll just eat my food and completely ignore my guest. I will pay attention to him if he needs an extra dressing or something. When we are done eating, I will send him home. The question is, I really doubt it if this guy is going to be my friend ever again? The methods of teachings I believe can be unlimited. We have to utilize them in respect to the uniqueness of every individual.

Or else somebody asks me a work related question who doesn't know what to do. I don't answer. Instead, I make the guy find his own answers and take an action based on his decision. I will just observe and if he makes a mistake, I will point it out to him. If the end product is of no good quality, he will never make the same decision again. He's been taught a lesson.

 

[Alada]

Teachings about The Work I believe requires face to face discussion, it is a very delicate subject and it is not for everyone. We can only be Objective as possible. If we only speak the Truth, people will follow us and they will listen. That way we make more friends and network.

I don't know that the thing about face to face discussion holds true, a lot of work has been done here over the years with folk discussing things in written form far more often than in person. For some, meeting in person would be very difficult anyway due to their location, yet people are still able to make good use of the knowledge available, work on themselves and make useful progress it seems.

Maybe it was a comment of its time (1920s/30s) when Gurdjieff first started his work and communication methods were poor by comparison with today. Imagine if G had had the Internet!

It has been said that in person meetings are required for "influence C" to be transmitted, but then Laura has found a "C influence" that is certainly not face to face, and which has been successfully re-transmitted via the written word. So I don't know that that holds true either. Again, maybe it was more relevant in the past where methods of transmission were far more limited.

Maybe face to face is not so relevant these days then, depends on context. We have to take into account the far greater number of people that can be reached today via the written word than in Gs time. Far more is possible now, largely thanks to the internet.

So I'd be wary of a that line of thinking and it's being used in a context that no longer fits. Also to be watchful for the avenues of wishful, 'magical' thinking it might lead one down, there's often a spellbinder with a carrot down the end of that road.

Edit: spelling

 

[Stefan]

Thank you, Alada. Now I learned something new, your comment was very, very insightful to me.
I'd like to work both ways, in person and in writing. The vast majority of people don't want to learn nothing. They are happy to be ignorant. How do we change that? I tried writing, it works on some people, just maybe 2 or 3 out of 100 respond, and their response is like ' when do I see you, Stefan?' They want to talk about issues I write about and yet they are way too lazy to take an action to actually make an effort and see me. It's just, life takes its toll and they forget. And they are lazy to read too. I try. I am talking about people who I know, my immediate friends and acquaintances. I am not trying to build something anew or a new religion. But I am thinking about expanding my network via internet to reach out to more people. It is just like starting a brand new enterprise. It takes a lot of effort and commitment, it is a lot of work. It is hard to start from scratch. I do my best to make a decent living for myself too, this isn't ease by all means.

So here is me and my reality:

When I meet 10 or 20 people in person, individually, over a certain period of time, even without talking on the subject, it is important, I believe, to be among people and to make friends, stay positive, and always be positive towards people. We are supposed to be the leaders, we are supposed to be the ones setting the example for them, we are supposed to inspire people to make a change to be good to themselves and others. I don't know about your area where you live in, but around my city where I am at, there is too much 'noise' and negativity, people are so selfish and ignorant that it's just surreal. But there are still good positive people out there. They still follow me which is a good sign. I work with them.

 

[lainey]

Hello Stefan, I just wanted to comment on a few things that caught my eye from your posts:

It is then people's choice should they want to believe in the illusions, or should they just let be controlled by their delusional mind. I do not go silent with these people. I go as far as they have to eventually block me from their social contacts. Good. Many people still follow me, that gives me hope. They know I am a nut job and a thought criminal anyway. However, they are very curious.

Can you see the contradiction here? You say it is the choice of the people if they want to remain asleep, from that I understand you respect their free will, their choice? Then in the next sentence you say you "Do not go silent" and "Go as far as they have to eventually block me". From that I understand that you force your opinions on them until they block you? Therefore not respecting their free will?
I don't know the dynamics of the interactions that lead to people blocking you but it sounds like you are trying to force something here instead of gently planting seeds.

Our advantage over these people is always and shall be knowledge. My main idea is to reveal to people their own weakness and areas of vulnerability

To me, these two sentences are a little disturbing. Why do you want to have an advantage over someone? It reads like you feel you are above other people. IMO it is not our place to decide whether a person "needs" anything revealed to them if they are not asking. Perhaps some people aren't ready to have their weakness and vulnerability pointed out to them. I don't think it is up to us to decide what is right for another.

We are supposed to be the leaders.

Are we? I thought the point of the network was that there are no leaders, just everybody sharing what they can as a team.

Like for example, I may invite a friend over to have dinner and have a little chat about the secrets of life. He will say, ok! I am so excited, let's talk! So we'll have dinner which is probably going to be extremely irritating to my friend since he would love to know the secrets and I'll never speak a word. Instead, I'll just eat my food and completely ignore my guest. I will pay attention to him if he needs an extra dressing or something. When we are done eating, I will send him home. The question is, I really doubt it if this guy is going to be my friend ever again? The methods of teachings I believe can be unlimited. We have to utilize them in respect to the uniqueness of every individual.

This to me seems like playing games and manipulation. It may have worked for Gurdjieff but to me it seems like an odd way to treat a friend.

But I am thinking about expanding my network via internet to reach out to more people. It is just like starting a brand new enterprise. It takes a lot of effort and commitment, it is a lot of work.

It sounds like hard work, especially if you are actively using your energy trying to "recruit" instead of letting those who are really searching come to you. IMO it is a waste of energy giving to those who are not asking.

I appreciate your passion for the need to awaken people and it looks like you give it a lot of thought and effort. Perhaps you are trying to push things a little? My advise would be to take a gentler approach, like Nienna said "leaving seeds for them to sow if they want to".

 

[Alada]

I'd like to work both ways, in person and in writing. The vast majority of people don't want to learn nothing. They are happy to be ignorant. How do we change that?

We don’t. Everyone has the freewill to be however they are, everyone makes the choice no matter how unconscious to act as they do. To try and fix that or to pass on knowledge where it isn’t being truly asked for violates that basic right of freewill, is not the STO way if that is what you’re aiming for.

[quote author=Stefan]
I tried writing, it works on some people, just maybe 2 or 3 out of 100 respond, and their response is like ' when do I see you, Stefan?' They want to talk about issues I write about and yet they are way too lazy to take an action to actually make an effort and see me. It's just, life takes its toll and they forget. And they are lazy to read too. I try. [/quote]

That sounds about right, 2 or 3 percent respond, and out of that percentage again, maybe only two or three in a hundred that do respond will be motivated enough to actually do anything. That’s a lot of lunches if you’re aiming to do everything face to face eh, just to find a very few people. And what will be the odds that all (or indeed any) of those who are motivated to Work on themselves will live close to you? Slim to vanishing one would think.

Think about it, of all the people on the planet, with the reach that the world wide web has, with material in many languages, still there are only and very few who choose to stick around and gather knowledge for themselves, fewer still who decide to begin Working on themselves, and fewer still to find they are able to stick with it. And is not just true of people Working on the forum here, look at the ‘4th way’ in general, the number of people interested in G’s ideas today. Those that are able to recognize the application is small in number indeed. Didn’t the Cs mention something like 1 in 10,000?

[quote author=Stefan]
I am talking about people who I know, my immediate friends and acquaintances. I am not trying to build something anew or a new religion. But I am thinking about expanding my network via internet to reach out to more people. It is just like starting a brand new enterprise. It takes a lot of effort and commitment, it is a lot of work. It is hard to start from scratch. I do my best to make a decent living for myself too, this isn't ease by all means.[/quote]

I guess all we can do with friends and family is try to stay awake ourselves and do whatever it is that makes their lives easier, to be ‘externally considerate’. If that means not ramming information down their throats where they haven’t asked for it then so be it, if that means having shallow conversations about nothing of import then so be it, and so on. Much energy can be conserved this way for us to do useful work, and those around us will be much happier, now that they no longer have to suffer our uninvited rants / ramblings. Everybody wins!

[quote author=Stefan]
When I meet 10 or 20 people in person, individually, over a certain period of time, even without talking on the subject, it is important, I believe, to be among people and to make friends, stay positive, and always be positive towards people. We are supposed to be the leaders, we are supposed to be the ones setting the example for them, we are supposed to inspire people to make a change to be good to themselves and others. I don't know about your area where you live in, but around my city where I am at, there is too much 'noise' and negativity, people are so selfish and ignorant that it's just surreal. But there are still good positive people out there. They still follow me which is a good sign. I work with them.
[/quote]

Not quite sure what you mean by “they still follow me” there. You mean they follow you on Facebook / Twitter?

 

[Musashi]

This hits home for me in so many ways Ennio… Thanks for sharing this!

I walk an almost identical path daily right down the family size and financial situation as well as having pretty much no one outside of this forum to share the Work with…

Thank goodness for the Knowledge and help found here!

I imagine at some point the PTB will or already have the power to shut of our ability to link up on the Web or they will manage the content as we’ve already seen. I guess my point is we need to (I need to) walk the path as best I can so if I lose contact online I’ll still be able to do the Work knowing your all out there as well!

Stay awake, stay aware, don’t anticipate and Be true to yourself and do not fear…

 

[Ennio]

We are here to help people who ask for knowledge. We are here to learn from one another and how to interact with other people so they can learn from us and we can learn from them too. They have their stories and view points, we don't know what they know. It is a two way street in my opinion. Any productive discussion is an exchange of information that is supposed to be directed in a way to be useful for everybody, and not for my own needs so next time I shout out, 'hey, lookie me, I told you, I was right!' ~ so what.

Yes. There is something very stimulating and gratifying about communicating truth to people - especially when you know that you may be sharing information and knowledge that they are unaware of and showing them something new; something that could help them or potentially change their world view, and that you too are learning something in the process. I hope that as you continue to share, however, you pay as much attention to yourself - simultaneously - as possible. What do I mean by this? Well, there are a number of motivations both conscious and UNconscious that you may have for doing what it is you are doing. And while many of these motivations may be coming from a 'good place' there may be others that neither serve the person/people you're speaking to, or even yourself, very well. You seem to have a grasp of this with what you say above, but it can't be stressed enough I don't think. Plus, sometimes we can see certain things about ourselves well enough, but other times not so well. And this is not meant to discourage you, but rather, to do whatever it is you feel inclined to do better, and with greater awareness of yourself informing the exchange.

Since you are a relative newbie to writing here (but certainly no newbie to writing outside of this forum) I hope that you continue to avail yourself of the various threads on The Work board, including the threads on cognitive science - for better seeing of ourselves, our minds, and why we do a lot of the things that we do. There is also the fact that it is through others' observations, via networking here, that we get a better more objective picture of 'where' we are. Seems like you have already started this process here and elsewhere though!

Hopefully, also, you are paying as much attention as possible to other areas in your life too. Many of us are finding that doing the ketogenic diet, EE, and cold showers, to name a few of the biggies, is helping to fortify ourselves so that we can DO things as well and for as long as we can. Finding a balance for where you put your focus will be very helpful in the long run of course.

 

[Fluffy]

We each have our own talents, so it would be great to utilize them.

I agree with what you have shared Keit, and thanks to all who have contributed to this topic. I have found that one of my better talents, which seems to be innate, is humor. I often use this humorous approach to get an idea across in a totally non-threatening of someone's world view way. For example, if crews are out constructing a roadway, I might mention that "looks like they are using up funds now while the money is still worth something!" This quite often gets a laugh, but, the idea is still planted that our economy is headed for a cliff with no brakes working on the car.
Everyone may not have this talent for humor as I seem to have, but there will probably be some talent you have which can help to spread the word.

Great thread, I'm loving it, I hadn't read it before because it didn't interest me til today.

I've been trying to identify some positive things in myself because I have been staring some not so positive things in the eye and it's made me feel really low and lack confidence. I hadn't come up with anything until I read the post above.

I lack credibility and integrity, I've never had any, I tried to get some when I was a kid but I had no idea how to go about it and just further concreted my obscurity, people have always thought I am totally bananas, and it's expected that I'll always live up to that. I accepted who I was seen as a long time ago. Class clown, life of the party, garden path wanderer type character. The fact that I hold my face in a semi smile and am always friendly and off beat makes people think I might be a little retarded too (I agree with them)

No this doesn't sound like a good thing does it.. But can I use it to an advantage - probably.
I was thinking if it's expected and anticipated that I'm gonna drop some kind of weirdo bomb about some opinion that I have or some alternate news story then what's the harm if I let loose and lay it all on them??

At the moment I do play on the fact I'm considered to be a nut job. I can pretty much say whatever I want, nothing I do or say shocks anyone, even strangers somehow expect it from me. But I bet you any money (ummm or some other thing that's of value, pork belly) somewhere at some point something has happened and that person's said to them self 'that basket case Emma said something like that, I might think about that for 3 seconds'

So no, I haven't figured out a talent, but I could most definitely try to refine my approach to incorporate nut job and valid info together.

May be being an incredible nut job is my talent.

I still don't want to stand all over anyone's free will (I struggle to remember this when I get a bit excited) I did read the casswiki on strategic disclosure. I could do with mangling that into my mix of incredible nut job.

Think I want to change my profile name now. Incredible Nut Job :P

I totally agree that just by doing a little bit causes a bit of a snowball effect. A little bit leads to a little bit more. I made a bit of commitment of myself to look deeper and work harder a few weeks ago. It's slow going especially for someone like me who is an incentive person and not seeing any immediate amazing results, but I am seeing some change in thought processing so there's a really good start.

Thanks so much for this thread. It's been a fantastic boost :D

 

[anothermagyar]

We each have our own talents, so it would be great to utilize them.

I agree with what you have shared Keit, and thanks to all who have contributed to this topic. I have found that one of my better talents, which seems to be innate, is humor. I often use this humorous approach to get an idea across in a totally non-threatening of someone's world view way. For example, if crews are out constructing a roadway, I might mention that "looks like they are using up funds now while the money is still worth something!" This quite often gets a laugh, but, the idea is still planted that our economy is headed for a cliff with no brakes working on the car.
Everyone may not have this talent for humor as I seem to have, but there will probably be some talent you have which can help to spread the word.

Great thread, I'm loving it, I hadn't read it before because it didn't interest me til today.

I've been trying to identify some positive things in myself because I have been staring some not so positive things in the eye and it's made me feel really low and lack confidence. I hadn't come up with anything until I read the post above.

I lack credibility and integrity, I've never had any, I tried to get some when I was a kid but I had no idea how to go about it and just further concreted my obscurity, people have always thought I am totally bananas, and it's expected that I'll always live up to that. I accepted who I was seen as a long time ago. Class clown, life of the party, garden path wanderer type character. The fact that I hold my face in a semi smile and am always friendly and off beat makes people think I might be a little retarded too (I agree with them)

No this doesn't sound like a good thing does it.. But can I use it to an advantage - probably.
I was thinking if it's expected and anticipated that I'm gonna drop some kind of weirdo bomb about some opinion that I have or some alternate news story then what's the harm if I let loose and lay it all on them??

At the moment I do play on the fact I'm considered to be a nut job. I can pretty much say whatever I want, nothing I do or say shocks anyone, even strangers somehow expect it from me. But I bet you any money (ummm or some other thing that's of value, pork belly) somewhere at some point something has happened and that person's said to them self 'that basket case Emma said something like that, I might think about that for 3 seconds'

So no, I haven't figured out a talent, but I could most definitely try to refine my approach to incorporate nut job and valid info together.

May be being an incredible nut job is my talent.

I still don't want to stand all over anyone's free will (I struggle to remember this when I get a bit excited) I did read the casswiki on strategic disclosure. I could do with mangling that into my mix of incredible nut job.

Think I want to change my profile name now. Incredible Nut Job :P

I totally agree that just by doing a little bit causes a bit of a snowball effect. A little bit leads to a little bit more. I made a bit of commitment of myself to look deeper and work harder a few weeks ago. It's slow going especially for someone like me who is an incentive person and not seeing any immediate amazing results, but I am seeing some change in thought processing so there's a really good start.

Thanks so much for this thread. It's been a fantastic boost :D

Yes, it's a fantastic thread.

As for the bolded part: you are not alone in this, I understand how you feel, have had similar feelings, being a class clown, "nut job",
and I'm pretty sure others can share similar experiences, going through this process.
Other words: Welcome to the club! ;D

That is why is so important to understand our mind, how the brain functioning, recognize programs, buffers and so on.
This is a very helpful thread:
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,2832.0.html

 

[lainey]

The thing is Fluffy, you put so much emphasis on you being a bit bonkers and if that's what you believe about yourself then that is what you will project outwards. But could it be (in Gurdjieff's terms) a false personality that you are using to protect yourself against people invalidating your opinions? Like if they think I'm nuts they will humour my "out there" views? You have every right to your beliefs and every right to be taken seriously. Perhaps using strategic enclosure will help a little.
IMO you come across as a warm and emotionally sensitive person who is willing to admit they are just as fallible as the next person. That is something that I admire and I enjoy to read your posts. Have confidence in yourself :)

 

[lilyalic]

Perhaps using strategic enclosure will help a little.
IMO you come across as a warm and emotionally sensitive person who is willing to admit they are just as fallible as the next person. That is something that I admire and I enjoy to read your posts. Have confidence in yourself :)

Just to add to what lainey said here, I did a search on CassWiki to truly understand strategic enclosure... http://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Strategic_enclosure

Strategic enclosure is a practice that should be engaged in by every seeker of truth. It has both an external and an internal aspect. The external aspect is a kind of "strategic silence", employed in order to preserve the opportunity for further work. The internal aspect concerns how to maintain an inner (psychological) environment that works to one's benefit rather than detriment.

External aspect

A person learning about the Fourth Way will find that most other people are not ready to hear about it. The same goes in general for any information that would clash with the worldview of the person spoken with. For example, anything 'controversial' concerning politics or our civilization, diet or health, science or technology. While different people are open-minded about different things, for most, there are certain areas where they are simply not able to consider new information that conflicts with their beliefs. And if one would try to force them, then they would react defensively or even offensively in order to preserve their worldview.

A basic and important part of what one needs to know and apply to ward off attack is strategic silence. Many have learned of its importance the hard way: when the person(s) they speak with hear something they consider "crazy", loathsome, or otherwise concerning or offensive, the reaction can be quite detrimental. In any case, the word may also spread, with negative consequences. Suddenly, it has become "known" that you've become a "crazy conspiracy theorist"; or that you must have suffered a "breakdown"; or, when you eliminate gluten and carbs from your diet, that you have an "eating disorder"; or perhaps, if you mention being part of an online community in connection with something controversial, that you've "joined a cult".

Such reactions are actually common, and not merely theoretical examples. But it's not only safer to respect others' worldviews – it's also best for further reasons. Trying to convince someone who's not willing to listen is an attempt to dominate that person – which is quite the opposite of external considering.

External considering is taking the needs of all into account in order to make things easy both for ourselves and for others. The above makes it clear that, for people not engaged in The Work, their needs usually include the need not to have their worldview questioned. It also makes clear that, in order to remain decent, many people need to remain ignorant of what you actually think. As George Gurdjieff said, "sincerity with everyone is weakness."

Internal aspect

The inner aspect of strategic enclosure entails several ideas and practices. These essentially concern gaining an objective view of reality, and self-mastery. One must discern between the influences of illusion and the influences that lead to understanding of reality. (See A, B, and C influences.) The part of the self which is aligned with the latter must remain in charge, regardless of any and all 'A' influences (influences of illusion) which exert pressure, be they inner and/or outer.

Since 'A' influences are much stronger than the influences which lead toward objectivity, the seeker on the Way must conserve energy. They must master 'A' influences by first identifying them, then understanding how they influence life and learning to work while immersed in them. This requires 'non-identification', or as Gurdjieff called it, "separating 'I' from 'it.'"

'A' influences include a variety of social, cultural, and biological forces – and in turn also inner psychological forces. By not identifying with them, and creating an inner enclosure from which to observe them 'at a distance' (i.e., 'I' observing 'it', as if in another person), one can avoid being swept along by them. But to do this requires a degree of self-awareness or self-remembering, being 'present' in oneself.

If the seeker forgets him- or herself – identifying with the dynamics of the exterior world or his/her own machine – then his or her guard is down, so to speak. Acting mechanically and automatically, the seeker not only wastes energy, but may end up bringing troubles into his or her life. The stronger the waking sleep or confluence, the more energy is wasted and the greater the 'opening' for attack. The General Law is quick to react.

By contrast, a state of self-awareness free from identification allows the seeker to always practice external considering, saving enough energy for The Work while keeping the General Law at bay and making life easy on those around him or her.

I lack credibility and integrity, I've never had any, I tried to get some when I was a kid but I had no idea how to go about it and just further concreted my obscurity, people have always thought I am totally bananas, and it's expected that I'll always live up to that. I accepted who I was seen as a long time ago. Class clown, life of the party, garden path wanderer type character. The fact that I hold my face in a semi smile and am always friendly and off beat makes people think I might be a little retarded too (I agree with them)

I used to get that a lot in high school, to college, in work etc.. people used to say "you're crazy, you make me laugh so much" etcetc.. and in turn it somewhat makes you act like that unconsciously to fit into the imagine others have portrayed about you. The 'others' somewhat expect you to come out with something funny, spontaneous. When I realized this and stopped trying to be what 'others expected' unfortunately people started noticing somewhat, and yes it's quite hard trying to keep in your crazy side because it keeps you going!

 

[Villival]

Achieving critical mass happens all at once AFTER years of doing certain things. After what I have learned, I have come to the following conclusions. Words, matched with heart and intent, are the proverbial "straw that breaks the camel's back of critical mass.


Truth-that word seems to be a key component on the path to enlightenment. Somehow speaking that word, along with action, sets the pot to boiling, so to speak.

The minute I asked what everyone was so afraid of, things began falling into place willy nilly. It set of the chain reaction that became my enlightenment. All fear left. Though it left immediately, I do see it was a process, little by little, of following your heart in it's purest and best intent AND seeing things as they are, with no judgement about good or bad. Most of all, it means not having emotion connected to what others think of you. Fear of anything has to go, but mostly fear of other's judgement of you. My son's death helped in this, as I truly experienced "the worst." I believe then when one has children, due to the nature of the love, there is some sort of fear always there.

I will say that this journey is NOT for the faint of heart. I lost everything; my son, my fiance, my Mom, my jobs, my house. What I gained is incomparable. I have a hard head and a lot of curiosity. I also fought like hell when it started happening to me because I thought someone was trying to control me. And maybe they were. But I am as sure of myself as I am sure of all. Not easy but worth it.

 

[Villival]

I almost forgot. Don't lie. If you have no fear, you don't lie. The part I am really struggling with is who is trustworthy. There were (in retrospect) an awful lot of people "watching" me while I went through what I went through and though they were nice, they weren't talking. That is the part that is still confusing to me.

 

[Ennio]

I totally agree that just by doing a little bit causes a bit of a snowball effect. A little bit leads to a little bit more. I made a bit of commitment of myself to look deeper and work harder a few weeks ago. It's slow going especially for someone like me who is an incentive person and not seeing any immediate amazing results, but I am seeing some change in thought processing so there's a really good start.

Thanks so much for this thread. It's been a fantastic boost :D

Glad to hear that this thread has been a boost! As for the snowball effect, I think that there's a very good possibility that the work of this forum, for just one, has contributed to the world's larger understanding of psychopathy, such that it is. This could only have come after several years of this group here piecing things together and quite doggedly putting the information out there again, and again, and again, and again. And yet again. And even again! You get the idea.

You're honesty about being an "incentive person" and wanting to see "immediate amazing results" is appreciated. I think that we have all been conditioned and programmed (to some degree or another) for the goodies of instant gratification for so long that taking the longer 'deeper' view of things - by going in the opposite direction - can actually feel wrong somehow, if not difficult. When, really, it is just about consciously, intentionally, working on stuff and not talking ourselves out of doing because of the time we have, or what we feel capable of (plug in your own narratives here). Yes, we need to be practical, objective, and reasonable about it too, but the growth comes from, at some point, just doing it I think. And being fully engaged, or engaged as much as possible, as the C's say.

As for the other traits you mentioned, I think that the feedback you've gotten on it is good, and may be a good starting point for looking into things further. OSIT.