Beyond Insanity

[Fifth Way]

Amos

If we manage to resist their onslaught long enough, we will eventually develop technical scanning equipment which will measure how different they are from human beings, despite their similarity of form

This is an interesting hypothesis. I'll bet the technology already exists. For example, a standardized set of questions, photos, videos, etc. could be created to draw out emotional responses such as empathy, shame, fear, and guilt and the study subjects hooked up to an MRI and their brain scanned while they are exposed to the test inputs. There's a good chance that the psychopaths would clearly and easily stand out with this simple technique, perhaps.

What we need is the 'Voigt Kampf' test as in the Ridley Scott movie Blade Runner. The "Voigt-Kampf" test tests the subject for empathy. To find out: Am I dealing with a replikant, a robot, a soulless being or a human. Just for entertainmet purpose, here the opening sceene taking place around 2020:

July 24, 1980
Brighton Productions Inc.
1420 No. Beachwood Drive
Hollywood, Calif. 90028

****************

INT. TYRELL CORPORATION LOCKER ROOM - DAY 1

THE EYE 2

It's magnified and deeply revealed. Flecks of green
and yellow in a field of milky blue. Icy filaments
surround the undulating center.

The eye is brown in a tiny screen. On the metallic
surface below, the words VOIGHT-KAMPFF are finely
etched. There's a touch-light panel across the top
and on the side of the screen, a dial that registers
fluctuations of the iris.

The instrument is no bigger than a music box and sits
on a table between two men. The man talking is big,
looks like an over-stuffed kid. "LEON" it says on
his breast pocket. He's dressed in a warehouseman's
uniform and his pudgy hands are folded expectantly in
his lap. Despite the obvious heat, he looks very cool.

The man facing him is lean, hollow cheeked and dressed
in gray. Detached and efficient, he looks like a cop
or an accountant. His name is HOLDEN and he's all
business, except for the sweat on his face.

The room is large and humid. Rows of salvaged junk
are stacked neatly against the walls. Two large fans
whir above their heads.

LEON
Okay if I talk?

Holden doesn't answer. He's centering Leon's eye on
the machine.

LEON
I kinda get nervous when I
take tests.

HOLDEN
Don't move.

LEON
Sorry.

He tries not to move but finally his lips can't help
a sheepish smile.

LEON
Already had I.Q. test this year --
but I don't think I never had a...

HOLDEN
(cutting in)
Reaction time is a factor in this,
so please pay attention. Answer
quickly as you can.

Leon compresses his lips and nods his big head eagerly.
Holden's voice is cold, geared to intimidate and evoke
response.

HOLDEN
You're in a desert, walking along
in the sand when all of a sudden
you look down and see a...

LEON
What one?

It was a timid interruption, hardly audible.

HOLDEN
What?

LEON
What desert?

HOLDEN
Doesn't make any difference what
desert -- it's completely
hypothetical.

LEON
But how come I'd be there?

HOLDEN
Maybe you're fed up, maybe you
want to be by yourself -- who
knows. So you look down and
see a tortoise. It's crawling
towards you...

LEON
A tortoise. What's that?

HOLDEN
Know what a turtle is?

LEON
Of course.

HOLDEN
Same thing.

LEON
I never seen a turtle.

He sees Holden's patience is wearing thin.

LEON
But I understand what you mean.

HOLDEN
You reach down and flip the
tortoise over on its back, Leon.

Keeping an eye on his subject, Holden notes the dials
in the Voight-Kampff. One of the needles quivers
slightly.

LEON
You make these questions, Mr.
Holden, or they write 'em down
for you?

Disregarding the question, Holden continues, picking
up the pace.

HOLDEN
The tortoise lays on its back,
its belly baking in the hot sun,
beating its legs trying to turn
itself over. But it can't. Not
without your help. But you're
not helping.

Leon's upper lip is quivering.

LEON
Whatcha mean, I'm not helping?

HOLDEN
I mean you're not helping!
Why is that, Leon?

Leon looks shocked, surprised. But the needles in
the computer barely move. Holden goes for the inside
of his coat. But big Leon is faster. His LASER BURNS
a hole the size of a nickel through Holden's stomach.
Unlike a bullet, a laser causes no impact. It goes
through Holden's spine and comes out his back, clean
as a whistle. Like a rag doll he falls back off the
bench from the waist up. By the time he hits the
floor, big slow Leon is already walking away. But he
stops, turns and with a little smile of satisfaction,
FIRES at the machine on the table.

There's a flash and a puff of smoke. The Voight-Kampff
is hit dead center, crippled but not destroyed; as
Leon walks out of the room, one of its lights begins
to blink, faint but steady.

....and later on in the script (sorry I just couldn't resit, its so good)....

INT. INNER SANCTUM OF DR. TYRELL - DAY 34

The office is dimly lit, but highlights of resilience
reside in the luster of the antique furnishings, like
glimmers of gold in a darkened mine. Dr. Tyrell is a
fragile man of power, with that look of "youth" obtained
from steroids and surgery. Dapper and trim, he leans
against the desk looking at an old fashioned pocket
watch. The only sound is the insidious PERKING of COFFEE
BREWING in the background.

Tyrell taps a sensor on his desk. The door in front of
Deckard and Rachael slides open. They enter a vestibule
and face another door, this one befitting the decor of
the office, Tyrell slips the watch into his pocket as
they enter.

RACHAEL
Mr. Deckard. Dr. Eldon Tyrell.

TYRELL
How do you do, Mr. Deckard. Please
sit down. Would you care for a cup
of coffee?

DECKARD
Thanks.

TYRELL
Black?

DECKARD
Please.

Tyrell pours from an old time sylex into small china
cups and hands one to Deckard. The congenial light in
his eyes could almost pass for warmth -- dragon warmth.

TYRELL
Somehow, I didn't expect that the
man who did the dirty work would
be the man to do the technical
work. Here you are, Mr. Deckard.

He hands Deckard a cup of coffee.

TYRELL
Is this to be an empathy test?

DECKARD
Yes.

TYRELL
Capillary dilation of the so-called
blush response? Plus fluctuation
of the pupil, plus involuntary
dilation of the iris?

Deckard nods.

TYRELL
May I ask a personal question?

DECKARD
Go ahead.

TYRELL
Have you ever retired a human by
mistake?

DECKARD
No.

TYRELL
But in your profession that is a
risk.

DECKARD
Nothing is infallible, but so far
the Voight-Kampff scale bas been
foolproof.

TYRELL
Like you said, Mr. Deckard, a
machine can be a hazard. The
Voight-Kampff scale is a machine,
isn't it?

DECKARD
One that relies on human
interpretation. Where's the
subject?

TYRELL
Sitting next to you.

Deckard stares at Rachael, then back at Tyrell. Delighted,
Tyrell takes a cup of coffee.

Accepting the challenge, Deckard opens his briefcase and
starts fishing out the apparatus.

THE VOIGHT-KAMPFF 35

Rachael's eye fills the screen, the iris brilliant, shot
with light, the pupil contracting.

DECKARD'S VOICE
Ready.

RACHAEL
Go ahead.

In the soft green glow of the dials, the needles in both
gauges are at rest. Dr. Tyrell stands silhouetted behind
Deckard, who sits in front of Rachael, a pencil beam
trained on her eye. Wire mesh discs are attached to her
cheeks.

DECKARD
You're given a calfskin wallet
for your birthday.

The needles in both gauges swing violently past green to
red, then subside.

RACHAEL
I wouldn't accept it. Also, I'd
report the person who gave it to
me to the police.

DECKARD
You have a little boy. He shows
you his butterfly collection, plus
the killing jar.

Again the gauges register, but not so far.

RACHAEL
I'd take him to the doctor.

DECKARD
You're watching T.V. and suddenly
you notice a wasp crawling on your
wrist.

RACHAEL
I'd kill it.

Both needles go to red. Deckard makes a note, takes a
sip of coffee and continues.

DECKARD
In a magazine you come across a
full-page photo of a nude girl.

RACHAEL
Is this testing whether I'm an
android or a lesbian?

DECKARD
You show the picture to your husband.
He likes it and hangs it on the wall.
The girl is lying on a bearskin rug.

RACHEL
I wouldn't let him.

DECKARD
Why not?

RACHAEL
I should be enough for him.

Deckard frowns, then smiles. His smile looks a little
like a grimace or the other way around.

DECKARD
You become pregnant by a man who
runs off with your best friend,
and you decide to get an abortion.

RACHAEL
I'd never get an abortion.

DECKARD
Why not?

RACHAEL
That would be murder, Mr. Deckard.

DECKARD
In your opinion.

RACHAEL
It would be my child.

DECKARD
Sounds like you speaks from
experience.

He notes the needles. One goes green and the other
remains inert.

DECKARD
Last question. You're watching
an old movie. It shows a banquet in
progress, the guests are enjoying
raw oysters.

RACHAEL
Ugh.

Both needles swing swiftly.

DECKARD
The entree consists of boiled
dog stuffed with rice.

Needles move less.

DECKARD
The raw oysters are less acceptable
to you than a dish of boiled dog.

Deckard moves the adhesive discs from her cheeks and
switches off his beam.

DECKARD
Lights please.

The lights come on.

TYRELL
Well?

DECKARD
If she is, the machine works.

TYRELL
The machine works. She is.

Rachael sits very still. Except her eyes -- they go to
Tyrell and hang on. He stares back at her as he speaks.

TYRELL
How many questions did it take?

DECKARD
Thirteen.

Rachael sits rigidly in her chair, as the ground crumbles
around her, her big mermaid eyes locked with Tyrell.
His voice is quiet and strong, mesmerizing. She's hang-
ing by a thread.

Deckard watches with a bas taste in his mouth.

DECKARD
She didn't know?

TYRELL
Memory implant. She was programmed.
But I think she has transcended
her conditioning. I think she was
beginning to suspect.

Rachael nods fixedly. Careful not to let go her grasp.

TYRELL
How many questions does it usually
take, Mr. Deckard?

DECKARD
Five, maybe six.

Slowly, carefully, Tyrell unlocks his gaze from Rachael
and turns towards Deckard, who is starting to put away
his equipment.

TYRELL
You're going to have to be on your
toes, my friend.

Deckard glances back at him.

TYRELL
It's a complex problem and we
wouldn't want anything to happen
to you.

Less of a man might shrink at the end of Deckard's look,
but not Tyrell.

TYRELL
For the good of all, I recommend
you take Rachael with you.
Considering her uniqueness, I'm
sure she could prove quite helpful.

Deckard almost smiles at the nasty power of Tyrell's
style. He turns away and starts packing up the Voight-
Kampff.

DECKARD
No thanks.

Deckard is ready to go.

Quite amazing! I'd call it even visionary. The power of movies.

 

[consciousnessrep]

My big question is what is the history behind psychopaths what type if genetic experiment is them did the reptilians help or did program did psychopaths. I wonder because everything has a history behind it. Like they dont feel no type of emotion they are very decietful and can be very good liars. I wonder what is behind all this how did these huminoids come to be.

 

[nicklebleu]

Talking of movies ...

Saw a few episodes of Battlestar Galactica ... and started to wonder.
The story is about earth being invaded by androids, that escaped their makers and masters (humans) and have come back. They are indistinguishable from a normal human being and come in multiples of 12 types. And all that with the usual drama of love, lies and politics!

I just wonder if there is an agenda to "prepare" humanity for things to come. Because in this series the general gist is, that these "soulless humans" really weren't that soulless. That in fact they were really "just like us", if we were just prepared to accept them with open arms.

Makes one wonder ...

 

[mcb]

This is an interesting forum topic from 2006 that I had not yet read all the way through. Laura commented that she didn't see any use for rattlesnakes. Thinking back to what I have learned about the vital role of predators in nature, I did a quick search and found this:

_http://www.ehow.com/how_5013999_treat-rattlesnake-bites.html -- From How to treat rattlesnake bites

Most people have a deep irrational fear of rattlesnakes. There are 16 species of rattlesnakes in the United States. They play a critical role in keeping our ecosystems in balance. Snakes are reclusive and go out of their way to avoid humans. Unfortunate the human fear of rattlesnakes is much greater than the hazard and as a result many harmless snakes inadvertently get killed as a result. Rattlesnake bites are uncommon and death in the United States from rattlesnake bites is extremely rare...

I personally have had more direct experience with psychopaths than I would have liked to. I have seen their unique form of reasoning at work, and I have seen the influence that this kind of thinking has on our world.

I have seen reports about a number of psychopathic murders and other crimes recently, and how people ask "how could anyone do this?," and how the topic of psychopathy almost never is presented. When one such murder occurred nearby a few months ago (another one may have occured a few days ago, even closer by), I watched the news coverage very closely to see if it was ever mentioned. Interestingly enough, I heard the word used exactly one time, in an interview with a specialist who, after exhausting all other unsatisfactory answers to the "how" question, finally replied to the interviewer with the single word without explanation--"psychopathy"--and then instantly let the subject drop, having apparently satisfied the reporter. This was near the end of a "background" video interview that I found on a TV station's website only after searching specifically for it--I don't imagine many people ever saw it. It wasn't even particularly easy to understand the word, the particular way he said it, and he did not repleat it.

While I don't have my references with me right now, Martha Stout in The Sociopath Next Door writes about how some cultures tend to bring out the worst in their psychopathic population while others may not. My current thinking is that psychopaths may actually play a useful role in our human ecosystem, if we can look beyond the sensational acts reported in the news. Because psychopathic behavior, to me, in some ways resembles what I see in other "higher" animals, I would guess that it might have been the norm at some time, and that the incidence has dropped because empathy carries many advantages. I think someone else, earlier in this thread, expressed the opposite view, however.

I can see patterns that might help to explain the current situation. There seems to be a close relationship between psychopathic thinking and the development of organized religion. This in turn may help to explain why educating people about it is still so taboo. And with people lacking that knowledge, the psychopathic population can become a tool that can be used in many destructive ways.

I am about out of time, but I do want to say that I find it interesting to notice how my personal values don't necessarily reflect trends that I see in the universe as a whole, what little I know about it. My natural tendency is to think that "my view is the right view," and that way of thinking is probably useful to the evolutionary process, but I at least see that there are other ways to view our experiences here. The illustration about rattlesnakes, above, is an example. What seems so true to us personally may not be true when viewed more broadly.

 

[Laura]

This is an interesting forum topic from 2006 that I had not yet read all the way through. Laura commented that she didn't see any use for rattlesnakes. Thinking back to what I have learned about the vital role of predators in nature, I did a quick search and found this:

_http://www.ehow.com/how_5013999_treat-rattlesnake-bites.html -- From How to treat rattlesnake bites

Most people have a deep irrational fear of rattlesnakes. There are 16 species of rattlesnakes in the United States. They play a critical role in keeping our ecosystems in balance. Snakes are reclusive and go out of their way to avoid humans. Unfortunate the human fear of rattlesnakes is much greater than the hazard and as a result many harmless snakes inadvertently get killed as a result. Rattlesnake bites are uncommon and death in the United States from rattlesnake bites is extremely rare...

I personally have had more direct experience with psychopaths than I would have liked to.

Being born and raised in Florida, I personally have had more direct experience with rattlesnakes than I would have liked to. I have had friends lose body parts as a result of their bites, and relatives (a young boy) die from rattlesnake bite. I have been personally close to being bit myself twice and only very quick thinking saved me. Once was when I was five and I most assuredly would have died. I also know that even if a rattlesnake bite doesn't kill you (if you are an adult and bitten on an extremity), it sure makes you wish you were dead. So, again, I don't see much use for them - there are plenty of other snakes to catch rats and other vermin. Only one rattlesnake that I met got away...

 

[JAKSUN]

Of course, as long as there isn't a fast cure for rabies, I think that is exactly the right thing to do. About the rattlesnake, I am less sure, as I don't have any experience. I can imagine that in certain regions they ought to be protected and maybe just removed far enough from any human residences.

I'm just going to comment on rattlesnakes as it's late and I'm about to turn into a pumpkin.

I grew up in rattlesnake and water moccasin and alligator land... I still haven't figured out one single good reason for any of those three critters to continue to exist. (And you can add mosquitoes to that list.)

I had friends who were bitten and lost parts of their bodies, or the use of them. I was almost bitten myself twice. So close that it gives me the shivers to remember it. Generally, an adult human will not die from rattlesnake bite even without treatment if the bite is on a lower extremity away from a major vein, but they will sure wish they were dead. We lost several fine dogs to the damn things and I was brought up to never let one get away alive. I've shot them, killed them with shovels, hoes and even with a tire iron. I saw one once that was over 6.5 feet long and probably 8 or 9 inches through the middle. That one got away because my mother was so scared she wouldn't even drive close to it. It was stretched across the road and so long she couldn't drive around it. My grandfather would skin the ones he killed and cure the skins and hang them on the wall. They were creepy even when dead.

We considered other types of snakes to be useful for killing rats and controlling other varmints and we protected them, but rattlesnakes were just too dangerous to leave hanging around. They stink, too. If one takes up residence under your house, the whole house smells bad and you are scared to go outside because you never know when it is going to decide to crawl out and warm itself on your front stoop. And you sure can't let your kids outside to play.

Nope, just don't see any reason for them. They are like smallpox: need to eradicate them.

I totally agree with you Laura. I was thinking that these 'no-souls' need to be disabled ASAP too - With Extreme Prejudice! We have no qualms about exterminating nasty bugs so why should we be squeamish and hesitant about these mutants- is it that they look like us? Due to what we already know about their behaviour in our world, and that the most successful ones (the controllers at the top of the shit heap) are very, very rich and powerful, they must also be identifiable. What we need is organic hit squads to note their names and addresses and just go and disable them.

this is a health and safety issue - not a feel good soap opera.

Take out the controllers, one by one. Instil some fear in the rest of em so they become even more obvious - then spray them with a 'bug exterminator' and remove their ability to influence others of their kind. Turn their methods of extermination back on them!

ITS US OR THEM AND I CHOOSE US

Do we really want the planet to be safe? Are we ready to act as mature custodians of the planet? Do we want to wait until it really is too late? I think not. I personally hope there is already more than one group of Humans gearing up to do this essential work. If I have thought of it, many others have too. After what those flaming bastards have done and are doing? It comes down to the survival of creativity now. So lets be creative in how we remove those 'no-souls' that have powerful positions and influence. Then we can get on with the job of moderating the ponerogenic influence into the future along the lines suggested by Lobaczewski. But we cant possibly have a safe planet with them in control!

Its an unpleasant job. But what choice do we really have? We can't reason with them. We have to control them. And if we Humans have to kill some of them - well so be it!

 

[Argonaut]

I totally agree with you Laura. I was thinking that these 'no-souls' need to be disabled ASAP too - With Extreme Prejudice! We have no qualms about exterminating nasty bugs so why should we be squeamish and hesitant about these mutants- is it that they look like us? Due to what we already know about their behaviour in our world, and that the most successful ones (the controllers at the top of the -shite- heap) are very, very rich and powerful, they must also be identifiable. What we need is organic hit squads to note their names and addresses and just go and disable them.

this is a health and safety issue - not a feel good soap opera.

Take out the controllers, one by one. Instil some fear in the rest of em so they become even more obvious - then spray them with a 'bug exterminator' and remove their ability to influence others of their kind. Turn their methods of extermination back on them!

ITS US OR THEM AND I CHOOSE US

Do we really want the planet to be safe? Are we ready to act as mature custodians of the planet? Do we want to wait until it really is too late? I think not. I personally hope there is already more than one group of Humans gearing up to do this essential work. If I have thought of it, many others have too. After what those flaming bastards have done and are doing? It comes down to the survival of creativity now. So lets be creative in how we remove those 'no-souls' that have powerful positions and influence. Then we can get on with the job of moderating the ponerogenic influence into the future along the lines suggested by Lobaczewski. But we cant possibly have a safe planet with them in control!

Its an unpleasant job. But what choice do we really have? We can't reason with them. We have to control them. And if we Humans have to kill some of them - well so be it!

jacksun, going on a killing spree isn't a viable solution. "The end justifies the means" is how THEY want us to think. It's how they get away with so much of their evil. But it's a lie. Besides, our goal here is not to eradicate psychopaths - it's to grow in Knowledge and Being, and help others do the same. This approaches the issue from an STO angle, whereas "fighting fire with fire" just makes a bigger fire. I don't think anyone here would condone violence as a solution, and in fact it's been clearly stated that it is NOT a solution. If I'm not mistaken, this is part of the issue which caused Cass to quit associating with Montalk - his links to stuff about armed revolution. It's just not tolerated here, and for good reason.

 

[Thomas Alan]

I totally agree with you Laura. I was thinking that these 'no-souls' need to be disabled ASAP too - With Extreme Prejudice! We have no qualms about exterminating nasty bugs so why should we be squeamish and hesitant about these mutants- is it that they look like us? Due to what we already know about their behaviour in our world, and that the most successful ones (the controllers at the top of the -shite- heap) are very, very rich and powerful, they must also be identifiable. What we need is organic hit squads to note their names and addresses and just go and disable them.

this is a health and safety issue - not a feel good soap opera.

Take out the controllers, one by one. Instil some fear in the rest of em so they become even more obvious - then spray them with a 'bug exterminator' and remove their ability to influence others of their kind. Turn their methods of extermination back on them!

ITS US OR THEM AND I CHOOSE US

Do we really want the planet to be safe? Are we ready to act as mature custodians of the planet? Do we want to wait until it really is too late? I think not. I personally hope there is already more than one group of Humans gearing up to do this essential work. If I have thought of it, many others have too. After what those flaming bastards have done and are doing? It comes down to the survival of creativity now. So lets be creative in how we remove those 'no-souls' that have powerful positions and influence. Then we can get on with the job of moderating the ponerogenic influence into the future along the lines suggested by Lobaczewski. But we cant possibly have a safe planet with them in control!

Its an unpleasant job. But what choice do we really have? We can't reason with them. We have to control them. And if we Humans have to kill some of them - well so be it!

jacksun, going on a killing spree isn't a viable solution. "The end justifies the means" is how THEY want us to think. It's how they get away with so much of their evil. But it's a lie. Besides, our goal here is not to eradicate psychopaths - it's to grow in Knowledge and Being, and help others do the same. This approaches the issue from an STO angle, whereas "fighting fire with fire" just makes a bigger fire. I don't think anyone here would condone violence as a solution, and in fact it's been clearly stated that it is NOT a solution. If I'm not mistaken, this is part of the issue which caused Cass to quit associating with Montalk - his links to stuff about armed revolution. It's just not tolerated here, and for good reason.

Hi, Jackson: As Argonaut says violence is their way, not ours. Often as not their violence is directed at their own kind, a threat that is visible to them.

The Universe is not broken, it's not our job to fix it. "To grow in knowledge of all creation." Being and creativity are "carried in the heart."

Besides, they will win any violent confrontation in the long run. They have the weapons, they are ruthless. But they don't know how to deal with those who seek knowledge and empathy. This is indecipherable to them.

The Universal struggle between The Darkness and the Light is very real. We can choose the side we are on.

Mac

 

[tom32071]

Hi, Jackson: As Argonaut says violence is their way, not ours. Often as not their violence is directed at their own kind, a threat that is visible to them.

The Universe is not broken, it's not our job to fix it. "To grow in knowledge of all creation." Being and creativity are "carried in the heart."

Besides, they will win any violent confrontation in the long run. They have the weapons, they are ruthless. But they don't know how to deal with those who seek knowledge and empathy. This is indecipherable to them.

The Universal struggle between The Darkness and the Light is very real. We can choose the side we are on.

Mac

This is true. If you start eradicating them then how long would it be until you bacame them ?

 

[Biomiast]

Its an unpleasant job. But what choice do we really have? We can't reason with them. We have to control them. And if we Humans have to kill some of them - well so be it!

Hi jacksun,

I agree with Argonaut and Mac. What is interesting about your post is that, its language is very similar to psychopaths who try to convince people that their war is just. Put Christians instead of "us" and Muslims instead of "psychopaths" in your post, you would get a classical speech for Crusades, or so I think.

That doesn't mean that you are a psychopath or anything, it means you internalized their reasoning and methods, as others have pointed out to you. You are thinking the way they want you to think. I don't think this forum is about us vs. them attitude. I remember reading a post of Laura, probably in Creating a New World thread, but I am not sure, she was saying something similar to: "If psychopaths derive pleasure from human suffering, how should they be treated with the system? What would be our method to accomodate their behaviour?"

It striked me because after all those suffering in the hands of psychopaths and all those knowledge about how they affected the world and ponerize our society, she didn't say how do we get rid of them. She was merely looking for a way to diminish their influence over the society. And best action for that cause is knowledge of psychopathy and their manipulation techniques so that we wouldn't believe in the same lies once again.

I hope that helps.

Just my two cents, fwiw.

edit: I have found the post:

...

Psychopaths (and other related pathological types) actually enjoy the suffering of others. Just as seeing other people happy makes normal people happy for them, these creatures get their pleasure from seeing others suffer. It's not a "drive" that doesn't have a "stoplight," it's a "reward" thing.

...

The bottom line is this: how do you deal with a creature who is just as entitled to "happiness" as anyone else is, but whose idea of happiness is the suffering of others?

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13795.msg116797;topicseen#msg116797

 

[Bluestar]

They make pronouncements without substantiation. To them, these pronouncements represent what reality is . . . pronouncement by pronouncement. The present pronouncement may contradict what they said a moment ago. This means nothing to them. They make no attempt to deal with the contradiction.

Not so! They DON'T know what a fact is. When we speak of facts and ask them to address the facts, they look at us with vacant eyes. They don't know what we're talking about.

They study us because their strategy is to pass as human. They hear us use the words -- facts, evidence, substantiation. They lack the human capacity to understand what we mean. What they do is ignore our reference to facts, ignore our requests for them to supply facts, and hope we won't notice it's due to their lack of comprehension.

These two quotes stand out for me, giving me a lot to think about. Pronouncements. By just proclaiming something and believing it to be so. Having watched time and time again newscasters, religious leaders and politicians say what seems to me to be totally absurd, I now believe I know why. Used to think they were just blatant liars. They could be actually believing what they say. Once on a comedy news show by John Stewart, he asked a question of one his guests (can not remember who, just a basic example here). The question to me seemed very reasonable. The guest kind of just looked at him like a deer in a headlight. Blinking her eyes and not saying anything or moving. He kinda just chuckled and asked the question again. The guest switched the topic. It appeared that she was in a brain freeze or something. Just could not answer the question

Sometimes I will watch Fox News just to see what they are saying on a subject. The BS that shoots around between the commentators is irrational. Basically I thought that they were just making the show interesting, now I see they believe their proclamations.


The next quote about not knowing what facts are, became apparent to me some years ago when I was involved with a group of investors in a large piece of land. We were wanting to develop this land into an alternative green community. The lead facilitators in retrospect were pathological to say the least, more psychopathic. They could not accept facts and would just stick to their proclamations. No matter what myself and some others put before them. They put the hologram settings on what they perceived the situation to be and nothing could possible change the way they saw it. The chair did not exist if they were not observing it.

As far as the "rattlesnake" issue. For me it is an immediate situational thing. If in danger of being bitten by something potentially deadly, then it is a case of me or "it/them" I would self preserve my destiny. And would not go out on a rattlesnake hunt just for the sake of what ifs. Forming an us vs them mentality for me would mean that they would get just what they wanted to begin with. Violence does not solve anything. Though sitting down when being attacked and surrounding yourself with light protection is living in a holodeck world and just might get yourself hurt or worse. IMO

 

[Hildegarda]

I agree with Argonaut and Mac. What is interesting about your post is that, its language is very similar to psychopaths who try to convince people that their war is just. Put Christians instead of "us" and Muslims instead of "psychopaths" in your post, you would get a classical speech for Crusades, or so I think. [..]That doesn't mean that you are a psychopath or anything, it means you internalized their reasoning and methods, as others have pointed out to you.

It also sounds like a "schizoid declaration", which Lobachewsky describes as:

They easy become involved in activities which are ostensibly moral, but which actually inflict damage upon themselves and others. Their impoverished psychological worldview makes them typically pessimistic regarding human nature. We frequently find expressions of their characteristic attitudes in their statements and writings: “Human nature is so bad that order in human society can only be maintained by a strong power created by highly qualified individuals in the name of some higher idea. Let us call this typical expression the “schizoid declaration

.

Such declarations "works" because they are simple and offer a possibility of relief, but the end result of their application is the opposite of what well-intentioned people hope for.

 

[anart]

You've gotten some good responses, Jacksun.

What we need is organic hit squads to note their names and addresses and just go and disable them.

Hit squads won't do - never have, never will. Hate doesn't drive out hate, only Love can do that and Love is Knowledge. Plus, there is the pesky fact that psychopaths are merely the 3D face of 4D STS - 4D STS isn't going anywhere, no matter how many people destroy their own souls becoming what they hate.

What might work, however, is to disconnect the 4D STS 'power supply' to their 3D representatives (psychopaths) - and watch the whole control system crumble. The details on how to do that are foggy, though it appears to be directly related to building awareness, coming together and Being - and all that entails and the effect all of that has on this realm. Only one way to find out, of course and that is to keep working in that direction! fwiw.

 

[dant]

The following are sincere questions, so please bear with me.
I am trying to wrap my head around this.

Is the following true?
STO=For Creation, for BEing
STS=Destruction, for NON-BEing

Are these two choices, mutually exclusive or can have
a little "grey in between"?

So what is(are) the true role(s) of "Primary Creators"?

+ are creators only (STO?)
+ are destroyers only (STS?)
+ are both (STO/STS and weighted depending on level of knowledge?)
+ are neither (perfectly balanced, and accepts ALL for what IS?)
* Is there more to it than what I listed above (with bias?) with
comments in parenthesis?

The reason I ask these question has to do with
the rationale of killing/death/extermination/control
as a wrong/right use of the free-will principle?

When is destruction a creative principle and what
is the right thing to do if one is seeking STO goals?

Dan

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Jacksun]
ITS US OR THEM AND I CHOOSE US

Do we really want the planet to be safe? Are we ready to act as mature custodians of the planet? Do we want to wait until it really is too late? I think not. I personally hope there is already more than one group of Humans gearing up to do this essential work. If I have thought of it, many others have too. After what those flaming bastards have done and are doing? It comes down to the survival of creativity now. So lets be creative in how we remove those 'no-souls' that have powerful positions and influence. Then we can get on with the job of moderating the ponerogenic influence into the future along the lines suggested by Lobaczewski. But we cant possibly have a safe planet with them in control!

Its an unpleasant job. But what choice do we really have? We can't reason with them. We have to control them. And if we Humans have to kill some of them - well so be it! [/quote]

It’s pretty well known that strong emotions can cloud judgment. This reads to me that indignation and grief about psychopathy have pushed you into a deep wishful thinking mode. Your suggestion isn’t practical in any physical or moral sense.