SEMI-SPOILER ALERT
But then, it wouldn't be Swan Lake if it didn't end the way it did.
luke wilson said:
But then, it wouldn't be Swan Lake if it didn't end the way it did.
Black Swan
- Thread starter Cyre2067
- Start date
EGVG
Dagobah Resident
I actually first heard of this movie here after reading Puck's review, and was anxious to see it, but I had to wait, because movies don't get premiered here until a couple of months after the official premiere in the US or Europe.
So I saw the movie two weeks ago and I was pleasantly surprised, It was even more good that I thought it would be, Natalie Portman was exceptional and a perfect match for the roll, the casting director did a good job.
Also Mila Kunis, did a terrific job.
The music was great, the whole soundtrack goes perfectly along the movie, and the director also did a phenomenal job. This movie was one of the best I've ever seen, very much recommended!!
Five happy faces :) :) :) :) :)
So I saw the movie two weeks ago and I was pleasantly surprised, It was even more good that I thought it would be, Natalie Portman was exceptional and a perfect match for the roll, the casting director did a good job.
Also Mila Kunis, did a terrific job.
The music was great, the whole soundtrack goes perfectly along the movie, and the director also did a phenomenal job. This movie was one of the best I've ever seen, very much recommended!!
Five happy faces :) :) :) :) :)
knowledge_of_self
The Living Force
I finally got to see this movie tonight. My impression of it was the same as everyone else here, very good. I loved this movie because of how it left people thinking different things, everyone thought something different of the story, and the ending. Here is my impression.
SPOILER ALERT
I thought that Nina (Natalie) had schizophrenia from the beginning, but the condition got worse and worse as the movie went on. And I think the movie was basically the depiction of her battle with her psychological illness.
She clearly had narcissistic wounding from her "mommy" and was treated like a child even though she was in her 20's.
At the beginning we see that Nina has a habit of scratching herself, sort of the similar to the condition of biting nails. I've read of cases where schizophrenic people bite their nails until they bleed. And there was also a part in the movie where Nina was plunging deeper into her sickness and the mother is trying to stop her, and screams, "you're sick!". The mother knows the condition well and makes sure to cut Nina's nails so Nina doesn't scratch herself. But the mother doesn't do anything about it truly, like getting Nina actual help because she lives through Nina. The schizophrenia is also shown throughout the movie visually through Nina's hallucinations.
Once she is casted as the black swan, her world begins to crumble because her mind is unable to cope with the pressure of her personal life and work life so her sickness deteriorates. It fully takes over when she drinks the spiked drink offered to her by Lily (Mila), the night before the dress rehearsal. Of course another impression could have been that Lily never spiked the drink, and it was part of her hallucination, but she did drink a lot of alcohol, and both things are depressants and basically add to Nina's downfall.
In the end her schizophrenia kicks in fully on her big night, where she fully sees herself as the black swan. She ends up killing herself- though it is seen as another hallucination of her stabbing Lily, and just like the white swan in swan lake, in the end she "lets go".
I think throughout the movie Nina was a very trapped girl, and her death was her way of becoming free of her disease and the dark world around her.
SPOILER ALERT
I thought that Nina (Natalie) had schizophrenia from the beginning, but the condition got worse and worse as the movie went on. And I think the movie was basically the depiction of her battle with her psychological illness.
She clearly had narcissistic wounding from her "mommy" and was treated like a child even though she was in her 20's.
At the beginning we see that Nina has a habit of scratching herself, sort of the similar to the condition of biting nails. I've read of cases where schizophrenic people bite their nails until they bleed. And there was also a part in the movie where Nina was plunging deeper into her sickness and the mother is trying to stop her, and screams, "you're sick!". The mother knows the condition well and makes sure to cut Nina's nails so Nina doesn't scratch herself. But the mother doesn't do anything about it truly, like getting Nina actual help because she lives through Nina. The schizophrenia is also shown throughout the movie visually through Nina's hallucinations.
Once she is casted as the black swan, her world begins to crumble because her mind is unable to cope with the pressure of her personal life and work life so her sickness deteriorates. It fully takes over when she drinks the spiked drink offered to her by Lily (Mila), the night before the dress rehearsal. Of course another impression could have been that Lily never spiked the drink, and it was part of her hallucination, but she did drink a lot of alcohol, and both things are depressants and basically add to Nina's downfall.
In the end her schizophrenia kicks in fully on her big night, where she fully sees herself as the black swan. She ends up killing herself- though it is seen as another hallucination of her stabbing Lily, and just like the white swan in swan lake, in the end she "lets go".
I think throughout the movie Nina was a very trapped girl, and her death was her way of becoming free of her disease and the dark world around her.
tykes
Jedi Master
A good movie indeed. Fo me was unavoidable to see a metaphor of the show bizz and the prize that popstars must pay to get to "be someone", how once they are useless for the entertaiment system they simply are replaced with someone new. The mind control and trauma references were very shocking, at soem point it was painful to watch.
Anyway it is a very enjoyable movie. A friend of mine defined it as "a pheromone version of Fight Club". :P
Anyway it is a very enjoyable movie. A friend of mine defined it as "a pheromone version of Fight Club". :P
G
Gertrudes
Guest
I finally got to see this movie last night. I agree with pretty much what has been said, a good movie, although I am starting to find Aronofsky's little predictable in the sense that (using Mrs. Tigersoap's words from earlier in this thread):
It is also how I see it. In a way Aronofsky's movies remind me of Lars von Trier's (check Antichrist for more on Trier], as they both seem to be trying to expurgate past ghosts and unresolved problems through their work. I could be entirely wrong, of course, but the fact that these 2 directors have an underlying constant theme throughout, whose resolution invariably ends in the protagonists loosing themselves in an increasingly pronounced mental illness, or abuse of some sort, makes me think so.
There is usually no surpassing of the conflict, whichever that might be, but only the dissolution of the protagonists on a downwards spiral within the problem, as if mimicking some internal loop within the movie directors/creators. This can be pure speculation, but these are so far my impressions.
Me too. It was like watching a Suspense, my heart kept accelerating.
Black Swan touched me particularly because I was also a dancer until 2006. My chosen field was Contemporary, but I had to practice Ballet daily as part of improving the technique. I always had a slight aversion to ballet precisely by what is depicted in the movie. Being in a major dance company, be it classical (ballet), modern, or contemporary can be tough enough, and sadly, sexual exploitation seems too often to be a theme. However, ballet's world is particularly rough. Girls' bodies are measured on a very regular basis since before they even reach their teen years. They are advised on what to eat in order not to get too much weight, which can contain a hidden message of: eat the least you can. I knew of 2 dancers, one who survived on apples and another on liquid yogurts. It is not surprising that bulimia and anorexia happen so often amongst dancers.
Once you reach teenage hood and go through the normal hormonal changes, if the end result is not slim enough, despite how many years of your life you've spent investing in Ballet, you are often (if not always) easily dismissed.
Professional dance can be a "tunnel" world where the dancer doesn't see anything else. After exhausting yourself training for sometimes 8 hours a day and never being good enough, a dancer is not left with much more energy then to become obsessed by being better. Dance, for many dancers that I have known, becomes one's entire world, and because you depend on how you present and project yourself on stage, most dancers become extremely self absorbed and obsessed with their bodies. It can be a very ugly reality, and I often thought that it resembled the concept of the sad clown who makes everyone laugh but is so unhappy. The grace and beauty we see on stage, can hide much pain, and minds and hearts that have been severely bent under the enormous pressure of being good, and perfect.
I remember an acquaintance of mine who used to sleep with a piano over her feet in order to get those "precious", beautifully pointed feet that most people admires so much. These are the types of things some dancers can subject themselves to, a complete abuse of one's body and mind in the name of an ideal, very much like what was also depicted in the movie.
What I described above was what I find to be the ugly face of professional dance, but not all is bad, and there is a positive side. Smaller companies geared to forms that not pure ballet will tend to value more the dancer's innate creativity and own style. They will give the dancer more space to grow, and often choreographies are made in cooperation with the material that the dancer comes up with. In those cases it is easier to remember what dance really is about, joy, instead of a race to perfection.
Edit: added link and clarification
Mrs Tigersoap said:
It is also how I see it. In a way Aronofsky's movies remind me of Lars von Trier's (check Antichrist for more on Trier], as they both seem to be trying to expurgate past ghosts and unresolved problems through their work. I could be entirely wrong, of course, but the fact that these 2 directors have an underlying constant theme throughout, whose resolution invariably ends in the protagonists loosing themselves in an increasingly pronounced mental illness, or abuse of some sort, makes me think so.
There is usually no surpassing of the conflict, whichever that might be, but only the dissolution of the protagonists on a downwards spiral within the problem, as if mimicking some internal loop within the movie directors/creators. This can be pure speculation, but these are so far my impressions.
Herr Eisenheim said:
Me too. It was like watching a Suspense, my heart kept accelerating.
Black Swan touched me particularly because I was also a dancer until 2006. My chosen field was Contemporary, but I had to practice Ballet daily as part of improving the technique. I always had a slight aversion to ballet precisely by what is depicted in the movie. Being in a major dance company, be it classical (ballet), modern, or contemporary can be tough enough, and sadly, sexual exploitation seems too often to be a theme. However, ballet's world is particularly rough. Girls' bodies are measured on a very regular basis since before they even reach their teen years. They are advised on what to eat in order not to get too much weight, which can contain a hidden message of: eat the least you can. I knew of 2 dancers, one who survived on apples and another on liquid yogurts. It is not surprising that bulimia and anorexia happen so often amongst dancers.
Once you reach teenage hood and go through the normal hormonal changes, if the end result is not slim enough, despite how many years of your life you've spent investing in Ballet, you are often (if not always) easily dismissed.
Professional dance can be a "tunnel" world where the dancer doesn't see anything else. After exhausting yourself training for sometimes 8 hours a day and never being good enough, a dancer is not left with much more energy then to become obsessed by being better. Dance, for many dancers that I have known, becomes one's entire world, and because you depend on how you present and project yourself on stage, most dancers become extremely self absorbed and obsessed with their bodies. It can be a very ugly reality, and I often thought that it resembled the concept of the sad clown who makes everyone laugh but is so unhappy. The grace and beauty we see on stage, can hide much pain, and minds and hearts that have been severely bent under the enormous pressure of being good, and perfect.
I remember an acquaintance of mine who used to sleep with a piano over her feet in order to get those "precious", beautifully pointed feet that most people admires so much. These are the types of things some dancers can subject themselves to, a complete abuse of one's body and mind in the name of an ideal, very much like what was also depicted in the movie.
What I described above was what I find to be the ugly face of professional dance, but not all is bad, and there is a positive side. Smaller companies geared to forms that not pure ballet will tend to value more the dancer's innate creativity and own style. They will give the dancer more space to grow, and often choreographies are made in cooperation with the material that the dancer comes up with. In those cases it is easier to remember what dance really is about, joy, instead of a race to perfection.
Edit: added link and clarification
Herr Eisenheim said:
I saw the film a few months ago and had strange reactions to it. At first I thought it was a powerful film and an amazing look into the world of ballet. Then later - the images started to bother me - it was so haunting that I began to wish that I done a bit more research before seeing it. In one way - I am glad to have seen this, but it was so dark that I could hardly wait to forget it!
This film portrayed the ballet in such a negative light, that I am happy to know that there is still a positive side in smaller companies. I suspect that is true in much of the creative arts - that the largest, most prominent are more likely to have pathological elements, but the smaller lesser known can still operate in a truly open and creative way and that artists can still have a chance to perform in such a venue. Probably in such companies there is less focus on the financial aspects (not that it is not terribly important to their survival), but that the creative process is as important as the money.Gertrudes said:
chachazoom
Jedi
I don't know why really but I've avoided these emotionally deep/disturbing movies for the last while. Even if they're critically acclaimed I just feel put off to watch such misery. I will wade through bleakness or despair if there's some redeeming quality, something inspiring, or REALLY thought provoking but I've found that alot of movies just feel as though Im being subjected to the writer's personal therapy session. Years ago I felt the same thing with the Oprah Winfrey show. Like every show or book recommendation by her it felt like being dragged into her personal therapy sessions. I just start seeing so clearly howw it was all about her mainly. I never watched the Wrestler, have no desire to watch this, started watching the Fighter and turned it off. I wonder why it puts me off so. Before I realized about psychopathy I was attracted to this type of movie but now it's a though I overdosed or something. Maybe it's just aging :P
chachazoom said:
How do you a know a movie is going to be like this if you haven't watched it yet? You may actually be missing the redeeming quality by judging it without seeing it. Of course we all do that in one way or another when it comes to film or television, but I thought your words above were rather specific and without knowing for sure how can you know?
chachazoom
Jedi
I read the synopsis and I will scan reviews first and yes, make a judgement. I know I'm probably missing a few gems however based on the many times in the last few years I've watched a movie and felt after like, I didn't need to see this and it's added nothing meaningful, it's as though I don't want to take the chance anymore. Perhaps it's because I'm more conscientious of my time now that I work fulltime. I'm not sure. I wonder if it's because I've been so immersed in the last few years with up close mental illness, psychopathy, the state of the world that when I go to watch a movie, I don't want to risk that drained well there's two hours I can't get back feeling. Or because there's a lot of crappy movies being pumped out. I don't really know. Another example is Rabbit Hole. All I know is that a couple loses a child (and that Nicole Kidman is in it) and I judge that it's going to be two hours of misery.
melatonin
Jedi Master
I always find his films enjoyable to watch.
For me this is about a young women who is dissociated or has multiples, rather than a 'skizo'. I noticed there was no mention of her father? Was she abused by him, aswell as being physcologically abused by her mother? She had a very stand-off'ish relationship with the boss at work, before deciding to manipulate him to try and get her way - like all/nothing, which (from my experience) is all the hallmarks of someone who has unresolved trauma.
The white/black swan for me was about her intergrating her child and adult parts and becoming whole, rather than supressing one or the other at any one time.
For me this is about a young women who is dissociated or has multiples, rather than a 'skizo'. I noticed there was no mention of her father? Was she abused by him, aswell as being physcologically abused by her mother? She had a very stand-off'ish relationship with the boss at work, before deciding to manipulate him to try and get her way - like all/nothing, which (from my experience) is all the hallmarks of someone who has unresolved trauma.
The white/black swan for me was about her intergrating her child and adult parts and becoming whole, rather than supressing one or the other at any one time.
Gimpy
The Living Force
chachazoom said:
I can relate to this in part. In my case it has to do with recognizing certain pathologies in daily living. When you see the same thing and understand it, seeing it in a movie, even though its in a different format or theme, it no longer touches you. You see it and think: "And....?"
I've wondered if that means that the particular 'lesson' is learned? Or that the pattern is known enough that you no longer need an example of it? Or is it just another form of denial...burnout...lack of caring? Sometimes I look at a movie review or synopsis, and it strikes me as an energy drain to be avoided.
Black Swan is one of many movies I've no interest in seeing. (Gone with the Wind is another one.)
chachazoom
Jedi
Gimpy said:
Interesting....I think that plays a large part. Most particularly watching contemporary themes about pathological behaviour and the results. I just think I don't need to see it on the big screen it's playing live all around. However if it's done in a historical setting or a sci fi setting I'm more interested.
G
Gertrudes
Guest
Gimpy said:
I can relate to this as well. I also pondered whether to watch Black Swan for similar reasons.
Gimpy, what you said of whether a pattern has been learned that one no longer needs to experience it has also crossed my mind. On the other hand, maybe it is none of that but some form of hiper sensibility to a similar something that has been experienced.
Personally, sometimes I think that having experienced a long, hard core depression has sort of laid the ground for me to nowadays often feel that I don't "need" (for the lack of a better word) to re experience even if just a taste of insanity again. I just naturally tend to reject it and movies such as Black Swan tend to give me mixed feelings, as in, yes, very powerful story BUT, where is the resolution/surpassing of that conflict? I find that too often lacking. Instead, the characters tend to continue their descent into the pits of the hollow ending in an even more traumatized and hopeless state.
That's when it begins to strike me as more and more misery without a solution....
I dunno, it is hard to tell if it isn't just one's own issues coming to the forefront and resulting, as Gimpy also said, in another form of denial, burnout, hiper sensitivity, and other manifestations of non acknowledged problems.
Johnno
The Living Force
Mrs.Tigersoap said:IMO Aronofski's movies are about obsession. An obsession that drives to madness and despair. In Pi, Requiem for a dream, The Fountain, The Wrestler or Black Swan, the protagonists are obsessed with something, something life changing and they usually cannot get it (or in the case of Black Swan, get it and lose themselves in the process). I think that his movies are ultimately about the usurpation of the sexual centre
I've just seen The Wrestler and saw Black Swan a few months ago, didn't know Aronofski directed them both AND Pi which caused quite a stir on forum when it came out. The most recent two, yes there seems to be impression of obsession along with the fable of the "American Dream" and how no good will come of it.
