Caricature of Love

3DStudent

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
This thread got really interesting toward the end with the vampires and living forever topic. I had some notes I wrote down 11 months ago, and they still stand for the most part. I'm just going to merge them with my thoughts at the present.

Divide By Zero said:
The C's said that "simple karmic lessons" as the criteria for graduating from 3d. What exactly is karma? Maybe it is some sort of soul memory that we sometimes choose to forget- and repeat lessons. If you knew that you were a good martial artist, or painter before- at what point do you move on to new lessons?

The book, 30 Years Among the Dead, it is shown that many dead people are still motivated by things that may very well give them a reason to return- to "make things right", "do better", or "get revenge" and so on. If you connect what the C's said to that, it seems like they still need to learn their karmic lessons- by coming back again and again to fulfill something they still hold on to.

Memory, knowledge would be a way our of this "karmic wheel".

That's interesting and I haven't read those books on the dead, although I have a few. If each day in our lives now could be expanded out into multiple lifetimes, it makes sense that we could continue with the same issues unless we learned them in the current life. It sounds like there is a bit of identifying when we get into these roles, "I'm a martial artist, painter, etc."

Psalehesost said:
I've lost motivation to do "all the things" I might be interested in. Even if possible, for the most part it would be empty - nothing but a complicated form of entertainment and self-aggrandizement. There's the learning that contributes to understanding reality - and things learned in all kinds of areas can contribute to that - but beyond a certain point, exploration (of one or more areas) that remains stuck at the same fundamental "level" becomes stale and just a thing of detail, empty and dissociative.

After exploring all the general aspects of human life, in terms of learning, an overly long life on Earth would offer only that: empty exploration of detail.

EDIT: And if we look at what it means to stay alive and live in a human body, it's an endlessly repeating task of stuffing the body with food and water, sleeping, getting up, etc. - and many daily routines. If there's no deeper meaning to live for - nothing truly worthwhile doing - then that daily "maintenance" would become an ever-lasting unpleasant chore. For what? Just hanging around in a fairly useless bag of meat directed by a slow, befuddled brain.

Wow! That's really deep and I see what you mean with the empty detail focus. I sometimes wonder what am I doing with my life when I waste time on useless things. But I think I may be stuck in that mode with wanting to get better at art.

Which brings to mind that life is like how I burned out with videogames. It's like being a hampster in a wheel. You realize the futility in it, and repeating the same actions over and over. There is nothing new that any game can give you that will truly satisfy you. So I wonder if that is how our incarnations are, that each life is like a videogame and we repeat until we learn the small things, eventually realizing that another life in 3D isn't needed and cannot satisfy our growth.

Miss K. the following is addressed to you, but I see you've not been active. I hope everything is going ok for you. But no worries if you don't see this or reply:

Do you enjoy making art? I too have been for the past few years trying to get better at mine, with the desire to use it objectively for the forum. But I have little time with a full time job and it usually ends up as over studying and dissociation instead of actual practice. I wonder if Ark's quote applies to these things, making I should be I love and just get on with it.

I was thinking with the lack of time, that if all lives are one, and a dead Presbyterian is a dead Presbyterian, does having a long life really matter? If we just live our life as it is now, won't we pick up where we left off in the next? Although I suppose you'd want some crystallization for something real to be present in the next. In contemplating the next life, won't we make the proper review and set up things for the next. A certain sense of faith in the self?

We're at a fortunate and interesting time and life. We all signed up for this and learned the "secrets of reality" in this compelling time. Of course it matters what we do with the knowledge.

Miss.K said:
I generally think there is more suffering than goodness, both in the world and in my personal life so far. But at the same time I think that goodness is such a fine and precious thing, that it makes life worthwhile, even if there is more ugliness, and even if the end is ugly. Even if the goodness is just a little weed breaking through the concrete of a gray psychopathic world, I will applaud it, and support it by feeling a little good about it....

I think our job in life is party to show the Universe who we are and what means most to us. There is beauty too in Truth and showing your alignment with it. I think objective art, like the stuff that say Mr. Fish does, is a way to merge something objective with art.

Miss.K said:
So if I was sure that this was the last time here I would perhaps prefer it to end sooner than later, but the thought of having to start over, having forgotten everything, having to put one self at the mercy of new parents, and spend 40 years poisoning myself until I realize that it is poison etc. makes me not so enthusiastic, and then I would prefer having more time to get the stone further up the mountain, before starting over.

I always think that if I have to come back that I wish to beat my record of age 22. I will find the Fellowship or closest equivalent sooner than that age. Imagine having this knowledge in the teenage years, or even as a child. I guess we need to help to create that world first..

Thanks all for those more recent posts, as in reading this nearly a year later it still is profound and strikes a chord.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
3D Student said:
Miss K. the following is addressed to you, but I see you've not been active. I hope everything is going ok for you. But no worries if you don't see this or reply:
Thanks for the concern. I'm in a sorry state physically. But think I will get better :)
3D Student said:
Do you enjoy making art? I too have been for the past few years trying to get better at mine, with the desire to use it objectively for the forum. But I have little time with a full time job and it usually ends up as over studying and dissociation instead of actual practice. I wonder if Ark's quote applies to these things, making I should be I love and just get on with it.

Arks quote always applies :)
I don't know if I'd call it that I enjoy making art (I draw)...I enjoy when I succeed making something that I think has something, or potential for something. But I generally find the process is more of a battle that leaves me beaten to a pulp by my own limitations and embarrassing shortcomings, than something enjoyable... Also I don't know if what I do can be called art if we talk about objective art. I´m not sure I fully understand what objective art is/isn't either.
I have a desire to be able to draw anything from any angle in any style I chose, and be satisfied with the result. (also master shades and highlights and colour) I see it more as knowing a skill (like being a carpenter and making a nice solid beautiful table) than being an artist (one doesn't call a carpenter an artist)

3D Student said:
I was thinking with the lack of time, that if all lives are one, and a dead Presbyterian is a dead Presbyterian, does having a long life really matter? If we just live our life as it is now, won't we pick up where we left off in the next? Although I suppose you'd want some crystallization for something real to be present in the next. In contemplating the next life, won't we make the proper review and set up things for the next. A certain sense of faith in the self?

I guess we pick up where we left, but if I'm anything like me in the next life I'll first spend a lot of time on running after boys (or girls if I'm a boy) while I'm young and dumb and have energy, before getting burned enough and old enough to get the desire do the work that is necessary to master drawing, that requires spending all the time one would otherwise spend having a life, on a chair, drawing till the fingers are deformed, and the butt is flat, in order to create an illusion of life on paper,(almost impossible to choose while one still has a hope of having a real life), and from then and till I have too little energy to climb the mountain it is to really learn to do something well, I'll only have a short time, and unless it is in a more sane world than this I'll still have to spend most of my time and energy on day job to survive, and I have also promised myself to spend more time playing guitar the next time, so I already wont have much time for drawing then either, you see?

3D Student said:
We're at a fortunate and interesting time and life. We all signed up for this and learned the "secrets of reality" in this compelling time. Of course it matters what we do with the knowledge.

I agree, it is a fortunate and interesting time we live in this time. It reminds me of Don Juan talking about the seers that enjoyed themselves blue under the inquisition :)

3D Student said:
Miss.K said:
I generally think there is more suffering than goodness, both in the world and in my personal life so far. But at the same time I think that goodness is such a fine and precious thing, that it makes life worthwhile, even if there is more ugliness, and even if the end is ugly. Even if the goodness is just a little weed breaking through the concrete of a gray psychopathic world, I will applaud it, and support it by feeling a little good about it....

I think our job in life is party to show the Universe who we are and what means most to us. There is beauty too in Truth and showing your alignment with it. I think objective art, like the stuff that say Mr. Fish does, is a way to merge something objective with art.

There is a group of us having a toons for Sott project, are you aware of it? if not, ask Artiedes if you want to do some.
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Miss.K said:
3D Student said:
Do you enjoy making art? I too have been for the past few years trying to get better at mine, with the desire to use it objectively for the forum. But I have little time with a full time job and it usually ends up as over studying and dissociation instead of actual practice. I wonder if Ark's quote applies to these things, making I should be I love and just get on with it.

Arks quote always applies :)
I don't know if I'd call it that I enjoy making art (I draw)...I enjoy when I succeed making something that I think has something, or potential for something. But I generally find the process is more of a battle that leaves me beaten to a pulp by my own limitations and embarrassing shortcomings, than something enjoyable... Also I don't know if what I do can be called art if we talk about objective art. I´m not sure I fully understand what objective art is/isn't either.
I have a desire to be able to draw anything from any angle in any style I chose, and be satisfied with the result. (also master shades and highlights and colour) I see it more as knowing a skill (like being a carpenter and making a nice solid beautiful table) than being an artist (one doesn't call a carpenter an artist)

Hi Miss.K and 3D Student, I think you might be interested in Steven Pressfield's little (and entertaining!) book "The War of Art", there's a thread about it here. Personally, I find his thoughts on the matter much more useful than philosophizing about "objective art".

For example, one thing he says is that in order to create art, we need to work hard and put a lot of effort into it, so that we prove ourselves worthy of the "inspiration by the gods". Or, as the C's put it (in another context), we need to do all we can on our end and then "ourselves in the future" will bridge the gap - I think these concepts are related. So that reconciles the "carpenter approach" with the more lofty "inspired art" approach - you need the former to get to the latter!

Pressfield also talks about our inner resistance to really sit down and start working. Pretty awesome book IMO :)
 

3DStudent

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Miss.K said:
But I generally find the process is more of a battle that leaves me beaten to a pulp by my own limitations and embarrassing shortcomings, than something enjoyable...

I think we have to remember the process and not the destination too. Anything worth achieving is hard work and I recall the quote "10% inspiration and 90% perspiration". I'm such a procrastinator and get so hooked in viewing inspiration or instructional videos that just to actually draw something is a great accomplishment.

Miss.K said:
[...]that requires spending all the time one would otherwise spend having a life, on a chair, drawing till the fingers are deformed, and the butt is flat, in order to create an illusion of life on paper,(almost impossible to choose while one still has a hope of having a real life), and from then and till I have too little energy to climb the mountain it is to really learn to do something well, I'll only have a short time, and unless it is in a more sane world than this I'll still have to spend most of my time and energy on day job to survive, [...]

Again the enjoying the process part seems to come into play here. You see these young teens and early 20's people these days who love to draw all the time. So they already have the mileage of practice. And when they get to college it's just a little learning and then polishing their craft.

Miss.K said:
[...] and I have also promised myself to spend more time playing guitar the next time, so I already wont have much time for drawing then either, you see?

Yes I see. You only have so much time. I have a few "would likes". That is I would like to play the drums. They are the one instrument I've played that really moves me and makes me feel the best. Playing a favorite guitar song, even sloppily, did that too, but I'm more of a "beat oriented" or percussive person I guess. My other "would like" is art. It speaks less to me and most of it is inspiration from others, although there are rare pieces of my own that I like. I like heavy contrasted lines with a lot of width variation. And textured painterly brush strokes. But no matter what I do, the esoteric is most important and moves me the most. The forum, knowledge, and all of that. Sometimes it's hard to keep a balance between these "would likes" and what matters most.

Miss.K said:
3D Student said:
We're at a fortunate and interesting time and life. We all signed up for this and learned the "secrets of reality" in this compelling time. Of course it matters what we do with the knowledge.

I agree, it is a fortunate and interesting time we live in this time. It reminds me of Don Juan talking about the seers that enjoyed themselves blue under the inquisition :)

I was actually just wondering after all the dust (literal in the form of comets and volcanoes) settles, what a boring life it would be! Assuming we're still here, or even if we're born again here. I mean, psychos wouldn't be ruling, the Earth would be calmer, more balanced, and less chaotic. It's like living in these times sets a precedent for life intensity. Assuming one is around when things settle, I guess it would be a life like a rainy weekend where you just do mundane things and get a few chores done.

These things really make me think about all lives being one. Imagine if that is really true.. It makes me just want to get on and focus on this life.

luc said:
Hi Miss.K and 3D Student, I think you might be interested in Steven Pressfield's little (and entertaining!) book "The War of Art", there's a thread about it here. Personally, I find his thoughts on the matter much more useful than philosophizing about "objective art".

I saw that book in another thread and its ties with the Work, so I actually had bought it last week. I think I'll put it higher on my reading list, although I still need to read Brownstein's Iodine book.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
luc said:
Hi Miss.K and 3D Student, I think you might be interested in Steven Pressfield's little (and entertaining!) book "The War of Art", there's a thread about it here. Personally, I find his thoughts on the matter much more useful than philosophizing about "objective art".

For example, one thing he says is that in order to create art, we need to work hard and put a lot of effort into it, so that we prove ourselves worthy of the "inspiration by the gods". Or, as the C's put it (in another context), we need to do all we can on our end and then "ourselves in the future" will bridge the gap - I think these concepts are related. So that reconciles the "carpenter approach" with the more lofty "inspired art" approach - you need the former to get to the latter!

Pressfield also talks about our inner resistance to really sit down and start working. Pretty awesome book IMO :)

What a great title :)

I think though that I have overcome the inner resistance, now the problem is lack of physical energy..
I work in animation for a living, so I draw every day, but a lot of the work in animation is rather mechanical (in animation there is a lot of repetitiveness and putting a line between 2 lines with great precision but little creativity, though parts of the work can be magic like creating life)
Unfortunately I have little energy to do anything else after work, least of all draw. But I really hope that I shall manage to get some energy. It has happened before, so maybe it can happen again.
-but the book sounds interesting anyways.

3D Student said:
I think we have to remember the process and not the destination too. Anything worth achieving is hard work and I recall the quote "10% inspiration and 90% perspiration". I'm such a procrastinator and get so hooked in viewing inspiration or instructional videos that just to actually draw something is a great accomplishment.
Sure, drawing is all about the process. I guess anything is.
About procrastination, viewing inspiration or instructional videos, I would toss it all, and take in the words of an old drawing teacher I had when I was young who only had one reply to any drawing question "you have to SEE what you want to draw, and then draw what you see" the rest is just training the hand to do your brains bidding, which only gets done by drawing drawing and drawing some more. But the trick is really learning to see.

3D Student said:
Miss.K said:
[...]that requires spending all the time one would otherwise spend having a life, on a chair, drawing till the fingers are deformed, and the butt is flat, in order to create an illusion of life on paper,(almost impossible to choose while one still has a hope of having a real life), and from then and till I have too little energy to climb the mountain it is to really learn to do something well, I'll only have a short time, and unless it is in a more sane world than this I'll still have to spend most of my time and energy on day job to survive, [...]

Again the enjoying the process part seems to come into play here. You see these young teens and early 20's people these days who love to draw all the time. So they already have the mileage of practice. And when they get to college it's just a little learning and then polishing their craft.
Sure there are a lot of insanely talented people that are very young. I think though that many of them spend so much time perfecting their skill because they are too shy to run after boys and girls, or in order to win the admiration of a certain boy or girl (at least that's what they told me) I think though that my problem is not lack of motivation, but lack of energy. Everytime I have a bit of energy, I do draw.
I have found that in order to really do anything, I have to become very one track minded. The time that I really made progress in my drawing skill, I sacrificed sleep, food, sanity, relating to people, paying bills, pretty much everything except feeding the cat and cigarettes and coffee. Its like everyday has 100 tasks, and if I do them all, then there won't be any time to draw, and if I do half of them, I'll only be half drawing, as the best work comes after about 10 hours of working straight, when I start going into some strange stage where something else takes over who is a lot better than me. Perhaps I'm just channeling some dead artist :lol:
So I think the process is more being obsessed or possessed by the drawing monster, than enjoyable. It is mostly blood sweat and tears....Though it is in many ways fascinating, and somewhat rewarding to be obsessed enough to make one thing more important than anything else.

Miss.K said:
Sometimes it's hard to keep a balance between these "would likes" and what matters most.
Yes that's the problem, and thus the wish for more time/more energy.

3D Student said:
Miss.K said:
3D Student said:
We're at a fortunate and interesting time and life. We all signed up for this and learned the "secrets of reality" in this compelling time. Of course it matters what we do with the knowledge.

I agree, it is a fortunate and interesting time we live in this time. It reminds me of Don Juan talking about the seers that enjoyed themselves blue under the inquisition :)

I was actually just wondering after all the dust (literal in the form of comets and volcanoes) settles, what a boring life it would be! Assuming we're still here, or even if we're born again here. I mean, psychos wouldn't be ruling, the Earth would be calmer, more balanced, and less chaotic. It's like living in these times sets a precedent for life intensity. Assuming one is around when things settle, I guess it would be a life like a rainy weekend where you just do mundane things and get a few chores done.
Are you kidding? To me it sounds like heaven, and I would start painting, make clothes of wool and leather (I hate fake materials, and they make the cats electric, and the skin can't breath well, but it is all one can get in this world unless very rich), and I would have a lot of beautiful Arab horses running around in my garden (as I would be able to buy a house with space for horses if the psychos weren't stealing all the money), and teach the kids in the neighborhood to draw and be kind to animals, and love would not be so hard to come by, as it wouldn't be perverted into a caricature of itself, so I would get myself a gorgeous man who could help repair the house, and move heavy stuff around and make me tea if I should fall sick. I'm sure we would have plenty to do with the time.
To me there is definitely enough hardship to make life intense without psychopaths. Just the fact that we all die, so one has to part from loved ones at some point is plenty of tragedy for me. Enough to make every moment with them precious..Also nature, when not destroyed by psychopaths is absolutely amazing, and I could spend a lot of time looking at it, feeling it, drawing it, studying it, being part of it....and of cause learn to dance the tango...
Miss.K said:
These things really make me think about all lives being one. Imagine if that is really true.. It makes me just want to get on and focus on this life.
I would guess that once one has developed a soul that will reincarnate, one could call all lives being one, no?
 

3DStudent

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Miss.K said:
Are you kidding? To me it sounds like heaven[...]

I was not kidding. It was a thought I was having. I guess if things settled to a Golden Age, there would be a lot less pressure and more time to do things. Though still there would be hardships and learning that comes from that.


Miss.K said:
I would guess that once one has developed a soul that will reincarnate, one could call all lives being one, no?

Yeah, and I was kind of getting at the undesired immortal life. That it doesn't really matter in the end if the soul sees all the lives as one. I think I was expressing a feeling too that death is kind of a needed rest where you get to "regroup" and plan things out without the distractions of this world and our machines.
 

Miss.K

Dagobah Resident
3D Student said:
I was not kidding. It was a thought I was having. I guess if things settled to a Golden Age, there would be a lot less pressure and more time to do things. Though still there would be hardships and learning that comes from that.
Yeah that's what I think, life is hard enough without psychopaths, one can still fall and break a leg, or get into a fight, or experience unrequited love, or get eaten by a lion.
I think though there is truth to the theory(fact?) that the (few) ones who manage to survive and to achieve self control in impossible conditions (like living in a psychopathic world, and being poisoned, having all kinds of parasites who alters ones way of thinking/feeling -like make one crave sugar or find predators sexy- feeding on one, etc.) will generally be tougher than someone who can control themselves in an ideal world, but at the same time I believe that learning can be done by kindness. Like teaching a child to walk and talk is (usually) done by encouragement, love, and support, so I don't think living in a psychopathic world is necessarily necessary to learn intensely, or achieve great results...
Didn't the C's say at some point that 3D STO world have existed, or do exist elsewhere? Or is that just cyclic and the Golden age is that? I guess that people of such a world still learn..though if it is the Golden age that then turns into -what is it- Merchant age, that leads to where we are now, then apparently they (we) don't learn from the good times......aarrrghhh I think I have to go to bed, I'm tired and that thought was very depressing
:zzz:

3D Student said:
Miss.K said:
I would guess that once one has developed a soul that will reincarnate, one could call all lives being one, no?

Yeah, and I was kind of getting at the undesired immortal life. That it doesn't really matter in the end if the soul sees all the lives as one. I think I was expressing a feeling too that death is kind of a needed rest where you get to "regroup" and plan things out without the distractions of this world and our machines.
I think you are probably right....though I'm unsure if we don't just keep our machines as they are (apart from the physical one) as a Presbyterian is a dead Presbyterian.... dunno..
 

ersio

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
Thanks for converting this to PDF. It took a while for me to get through due to the writing style being super condensed and old fashioned (or sophisticated?). Anyway it was pretty sickening to see how a lot of the authority figures in philosophy, art, sex and psychology have been teaching this kind of 'anti-sexuality' and how it's become the basis of what many young people will be studying in school or university. It's also crazy to think how these teachings have become the basis for many other works to be built upon.

I'm glad he took the time and applied his common sense to review not only some of the most ponerized (and foundational) aspects of these 'authorities' works, but also looked into the personal lives of them, pointing out that they've been some of the most sexually corrupt people going, and, if seen as geniuses, should be noted they were sick and full of hate for the feminine part of life.

He also essentially pointed out how they will go to extreme lengths to change the meanings of certain words or phrases, just to fit their subjective theories and justify their own internal darkness.

I was one of the younger who was just left to their own devices when it came to sex-education, and most of what I found out about sex was through videos on the internet. I guess this is the effect of either religious anti-sex or almost perverted-overly openness to sex being the two main teachings given to parents and most people when they are younger. Either that or no teaching at all. It seems really important for everyone to have a good grasp of what healthy sexuality is and to teach this to their children. I can't imagine how modern sex-ed classes in schools must confuse children these days.

It also reminded me of the red pill/pick up artist teachings that teach men that women are an object to be dominated and conquered, instead of building actual character and developing yourself into someone capable of being in a caring and giving relationship.

Agreed that the end was very uplifting after reading all of that.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Thanks for converting this to PDF. It took a while for me to get through due to the writing style being super condensed and old fashioned (or sophisticated?). Anyway it was pretty sickening to see how a lot of the authority figures in philosophy, art, sex and psychology have been teaching this kind of 'anti-sexuality' and how it's become the basis of what many young people will be studying in school or university. It's also crazy to think how these teachings have become the basis for many other works to be built upon.

I'm glad he took the time and applied his common sense to review not only some of the most ponerized (and foundational) aspects of these 'authorities' works, but also looked into the personal lives of them, pointing out that they've been some of the most sexually corrupt people going, and, if seen as geniuses, should be noted they were sick and full of hate for the feminine part of life.

He also essentially pointed out how they will go to extreme lengths to change the meanings of certain words or phrases, just to fit their subjective theories and justify their own internal darkness.

I was one of the younger who was just left to their own devices when it came to sex-education, and most of what I found out about sex was through videos on the internet. I guess this is the effect of either religious anti-sex or almost perverted-overly openness to sex being the two main teachings given to parents and most people when they are younger. Either that or no teaching at all. It seems really important for everyone to have a good grasp of what healthy sexuality is and to teach this to their children. I can't imagine how modern sex-ed classes in schools must confuse children these days.

It also reminded me of the red pill/pick up artist teachings that teach men that women are an object to be dominated and conquered, instead of building actual character and developing yourself into someone capable of being in a caring and giving relationship.

Agreed that the end was very uplifting after reading all of that.


I'm glad you revived this thread with such thoughtful commentary. At the time we found and read this book, we had no idea that our culture was going to take the turn it did, but Cleckley was sure right. And it is horrifying to see the consequences of others paying no attention to what he wrote.
 

ryu

Jedi Master
FOTCM Member
I finished reading Caricature of Love, thank you very much for making it available. It was painful to read, I was revulsed at the sheer perversion described in this book. I've been wanting to smash things on more than one occasion (instead I went for a looong walk in nature). I understand why this book is hard to find and I am glad I read this thread before starting, otherwise I would propably have focused too much on the negative view of homosexuality and missed the relevant information. At the end of the book, I felt exhausted, sad, angry, tired and old on the inside. I thought :"this is how low we have fallen".
It really is an eye opener on our societies, how Love, Art, Beauty, Philosophy were twisted. Everything is made so that humans never look at the stars, so to speak.

Movements like the SJW, the cooptation of the LGBT+, sex-ed classes that confuse children are completly consistent in a society ruled and/or influenced by individuals who are power hungry, anti-life and anti-truth. Love, Beauty and Truth cannot flourish.
It's also hard to see that by our ignorance we came to consider many pathological behaviours as normal, and feel guilty, worthless and ashamed because we didn't know any better.

This book made me also think, what a wonderful world we would have if we all worked on ourselves. There would still be suffering, because that is the lot of those who are in 3D worlds, but we could erase all unnecessary suffering... I realise it is wishful thinking, at least at this point in time.
 
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