Caricature of Love

Approaching Infinity said:
SNIP

This matches up pretty closely with Dabrowski. First of all, the idea of an "integration" of sex and feeling, not just a simple addition. It's something different, a new "level", in Dabrowski's terms. Whereas the pathological, immature kind of sex is one of selfishness, domination, "conquering", using, etc. - primary integration, or psychopathy as Dabrowski called it in conversation (funny how Gurdjieff used the word in similar contexts). And from my experiences and observations in junior high and high school, I was shocked to see this was how most boys perceived sex and talked about girls and women. Like Cleckley observed, you can tell a lot by the way people talk about sex, the terms they use to describe sexual acts: "f***ing", "doing it", etc. Words completely devoid of feeling, concern, tender feeling, etc. And that immature level seems to be where a LOT of people are stuck, thinking it's "normal", when it's anything but that.

Hi,
I too was shocked at the attitudes towards sex by kids in school and I went to a "smart school"! I noticed in my friends, those who had the most agressive tone about sex and women tended to be religious. I suppose being told that sex is bad all through childhood made it into a subconscious directive that any sex is dirty and should be treated that way? It's also strange to see how in Europe, breasts can be shown on public TV, yet in the USA it is not accepted, yet blood and gore is fine?

Downloaded the book, thanks for the pdf!
 
zim said:
Patience said:
I got this message to and it was because the connection was interrupted before the entire book was downloaded. You have to get it in one go. If you are using wi-fi and if, like in France, your wi-fi often cuts out you might have to try a few times. Or just plug your computer into the modem-box-thing, so you are not getting interruptions in your connection.

Yes I saw that the connetion cut and the download was only 170 kb.

I`ll see if I can download in another part.

Maybe it depends on the browser you are using? So it happened to me, with Safari (Mac) I couldn't download it, but after I switched to Firefox the download started right away. Just a suggestion.
 
Ummmm ok Im using Internet Explorer maybe If I chage to Firefox too it help me.

Regards
 
Just finished reading Caricature of Love today. Wow. Yeah, it's disturbing at times, but I'm amazed and what else Cleckley manages to portray, beyond and above all the pathology, about Love. There were so many "Aha" moments intermingled between the shock, horror, disbelief, and sadness that makes up the majority of the book. And the last chapters were some of the most eye-opening and beautiful I've read!

That said, I want to try to make some connections based on what I've just read. First of all, while reading the sections in Mask of Sanity on perversion I had a slight inkling that he was talking about "asthenic psychopathy", but this pretty much clinches it for me. The best description of the cases he mentions is possible by just listing some of the adjectives and descriptors he uses, I think: false sentiment, ennui, langour, weakness, antibiological disgust, false division between they abstractly ideal and unrealistically perverse. The descriptions Cleckley gives of Baudelaire, Huysmans, Strindberg, Whitman, Wilde, Swinburne, de Sade, Swift, Gide, etc. all to greater or lesser degrees seem to fit this description by Lobaczewski;

Lobaczewski said:
Such people also attempt to mask their different world of experience and to
play a role of normal people to varying degrees, although this is no longer the
characteristic “Cleckley mask”. Some are notable by demonstrations of their
strangeness
. These people participate in the genesis of evil in very different ways,
whether taking part openly or, to a lesser extent, when they have managed to adapt
to proper ways of living. These psychopathic and related phenomena may, quanti-
tatively speaking, be summarily estimated at two or three times the number of
cases of essential psychopathy
, i.e. at less than two per cent of the population.

This type of person finds it easier to adjust to social life. The lesser cases in
particular adapt to the demands of the society of normal people, taking advantage
of its understanding for the arts and other areas with similar traditions
. Their liter-
ary creativity is often disturbing if conceived in ideational categories alone; they
insinuate to their readers that their world of concepts and experiences is self-
evident; also it contains characteristic deformities.


me said:
Cleckley describes, in detail, their literary pursuits and how they present their skewed view of reality as self-evident, insinuating that it is true for all others. Witness Freud, Gide, and all the rest.

The most frequently indicated and long-known of these is the asthenic psycho-
pathy, which appears in every conceivable intensity, from barely perceptible to an
obvious pathological deficiency.

These people, asthenic and hypersensitive, do not indicate the same glaring
deficit in moral feeling and ability to sense a psychological situation as do essen-
tial psychopaths. They are somewhat idealistic and tend to have superficial pangs
of conscience
as a result of their faulty behavior.

me said:
He also points out their "sentimentality", i.e. their false sentiment. They speak with high words about things and behaviors, which, in reality, show themselves to be weak, lifeless, disdainful.

On the average, they are also less intelligent than normal people, and their
mind avoids consistency and accuracy in reasoning. Their psychological world
view is clearly falsified,
so their opinions about people can never be trusted. A
kind of mask cloaks the world of their personal aspirations, which is at variance
with what they are actually capable of doing. Their behavior towards people who
do not notice their faults is urbane, even friendly; however, the same people mani-
fest a preemptive hostility and aggression against persons who have a talent for
psychology
, or demonstrate knowledge in this field.

The asthenic psychopath is relatively less vital sexually and is therefore ame-
nable to accepting celibacy
; that is why some Catholic monks and priests often
represent lesser or minor cases of this anomaly
. Such individuals may very likely
have inspired the anti-psychological attitude traditional in Church thinking
.

me said:
Again, this is straight out of Cleckley. These individuals are disgusted by normal biology, normal femininity, normal humanity. They're demonstrably weak in the sexual department, their flowery prose notwithstanding. And it's their perverse attitude that lead to the Medusa-like grip of "sex is dirty" which pervades culture, in addition to an "anti-psychological" attitude (and perhaps more dangerous).

The more severe cases are more brutally anti-psychological and contemptuous
of normal people
;
they tend to be active in the processes of the genesis of evil on a
larger scale. Their dreams are composed of a certain idealism similar to the ideas
of normal people. They would like to reform the world to their liking but are un-
able to foresee more far-reaching implications and results. Spiced by deviance,
their visions may influence naive rebels or people who have suffered injustice.
Existing social injustice may look like a justification for a radicalized world view
and the assimilation of such visions.

The remark about Aldous Huxley made me wonder:

Cleckley said:
Aldous Huxley, thought milder [than Evelyn Waugh], also seems often to feel that man and woman cannot even make a tragedy of their love - merely a dull farce. Of him, Reginald Reynolds writes:

Here is the weakness of Mr. Aldous Huxley, if a cowardly Paris may venture a shaft at the heel of Achilles. ... Mr. Huxley is obsessed with sex to show its ugliness, having a most excremental loathing for what appears to him the grotesque antics of lovers.

Having read some of Huxley's works (in particular, his last book, Island, which sums up his philosophy on pretty much everything), I wasn't sure about this. So I did a search and found this essay:

_http://www.reuniting.info/aldous_huxley_tomorrow_appendix

Here are some quotes. As you can see, his views aren't quite as presented in Cleckley's book.

Huxley said:
Every civilization is, among other things, an arrangement for domesticating the passions and setting them to do useful work. The domestication of sex presents a problem whose solution must be attempted on two distinct levels of human experience, the psycho-physiological and the social. On the social level the relations of the sexes have everywhere been regulated by law, by uncodified custom, by taboo and religious ritual. Hundreds of volumes have been filled with accounts of these regulations, and it is unnecessary to do more than mention them in passing.

Our present concern is with the problem of domesticating sex at the source, of civilizing its manifestations in the individual lover. This is a subject to which, in our Western tradition, we have paid much too little attention. Indeed, it is only in very recent years that, thanks to the declining influence of the Judaeo-Christian ethic, we have been able to discuss it realistically. In the past the problem used to be dealt with in one or other of three equally unsatisfactory ways. Either it was not mentioned at all, with the result that adolescents coming to maturity were left to work out their sexual salvation, unassisted, within the framework of the prevailing, and generally barbarous socio-legal system. Or else it was mentioned -but mentioned on the one hand with obscene delight or obscene disapproval (the tone of the pornographers and the Puritan moralists), or with a vague and all too “spiritual” sentimentality (the tone of the troubadours, Petrarchians and romantic lyrists).

Today we are condemned neither to silence, nor obscenity, nor sentimentality; we are at liberty, at last, to look at the facts and to ask ourselves what, if anything, can be done about them. One of the best ways of discovering what can be done is to look at what has been done. What experiments have been made in this field, and how successful have they been?

He then describes the "Male Continence" developed by John Humphrey Noyes

... in his Male Continence ... Noyes set forth his theories of sex and described the methods employed by himself and his followers for transforming a wild, God-eclipsing passion into a civilized act of worship, a prime cause of crime and misery into a source of individual happiness, social solidarity and good behavior.

“It is held in the world,” Noyes writes in Bible Communism, “that the sexual organs have two distinct functions — viz: the urinary and the propagative. We affirm that they have three — the urinary, the propagative and the amative., i.e. they are conductors first of the urine, secondly of the semen and thirdly of the social magnetism. . .” After Mrs. Noyes had come dangerously near to death as the result of repeated miscarriages, Noyes and his wife decided that, henceforth, their sexual relationships should be exclusively amative, not propagative.

But how were the specifically human aspects of sex to be detached from the merely biological? Confronted by this question, Robert Dale Owen had advocated coitus interruptus; but Noyes had read his Bible and had no wish to emulate Onan. Nor did he approve of contraceptives — “those tricks,” as he called them, “of the French voluptuaries.” Instead he advocated Male Continence and what Dr. Stockham was later to call Karezza.

With the most exemplary scientific detachment he began by “analyzing the act of sexual intercourse. It has a beginning, a middle and an end. Its beginning and most elementary form is the simple presence of the male organ in the female.” Presence is followed by motion, motion by crisis.

But now “suppose the man chooses to enjoy not only the simple presence, but also the reciprocal motion, and yet to stop short of the crisis. . . If you say that this is impossible, I answer that I know it is possible — nay, that it is easy.” He knew because he himself had done it.

“Beginning in 1844, I experimented on the idea” (the idea that the amative function of the sexual organs could be separated from the propagative) “and found that the self-control it required is not difficult; also that my enjoyment was increased; also that my wife’s experience was very satisfactory, which it had never been before; also that we had escaped the horrors and the fear of involuntary propagation.”

Noyes attracted followers, started a little commune-type living arrangement, and went so far as to promote "Complex Marriage", where "all were to love all". He didn't condemn monogamy, but thought group love was better.

The Oneida Community endured for thirty years and its members, from all accounts, were excellent citizens, singularly happy and measurably less neurotic than most of their Victorian contemporaries. The women of Oneida had been spared what one of Noyes’s lady correspondents described as “the miseries of Married Life as it is in the World.” The men found their self-denial rewarded by an experience, at once physical and spiritual, that was deeper and richer than that of unrestrained sexuality. Here is the comment of a young man who had lived in the community and learned the new Art of Love. “This Yankee nation,” he wrote to Noyes, “claims to be a nation of inventors, but this discovery of Male Continence puts you, in my mind, at the head of all inventors.”

...

And this is not all. Sexual love is a cognitive act. We speak — or at least we used to speak — of carnal knowledge. This knowledge is of a kind that can be deepened indefinitely. “To a true heart, one that appreciates God, the same woman is an endless mystery. And this necessarily flows from the first admission that God is unfathomable in depths of knowledge and wisdom.” Male Continence transforms the sexual act into a prolonged exchange of “social magnetism”; and this prolonged exchange makes possible an ever deepening knowledge of the mystery of human nature — that mystery which merges ultimately, and becomes one with the mystery of Life itself.

Noyes’s conception of the sexual act (when properly performed) as at once a religious sacrament, a mode of mystical knowledge and a civilizing social discipline has its counterpart in Tantra. ... In Tantra the sexual sacrament borrows the method of Yoga, “not to frustrate, but to regulate enjoyment. Conversely enjoyment produces Yoga by the union of body and spirit. . . Here are made one Yoga which liberates and Bhoga which enchains.” ...

In the West the theory and practice of Tantra were never orthodox, except perhaps during the first centuries of Christianity. At this time it was common for ecclesiastics and pious laymen to have “spiritual wives,” who were called Agapetae, Syneisaktoi or Virgines Subintroductae. Of the precise relationships between these spiritual wives and husbands we know very little; but it seems that, in some cases at least, a kind of Karezza, or bodily union without orgasm, was practiced as a religious exercise, leading to valuable spiritual experiences.

For the most part, Noyes’s predecessors and the Christian equivalents of Tantra must be sought among the heretics — the Gnostics in the first centuries of our era, the Cathars in the early Middle Ages and the Adamites or Brethren and Sisters of the Free Spirit from the later thirteenth century onwards.

In his monograph on The Millennium of Hieronymus Bosch Wilhelm Franger has brought together much interesting material on the Adamites. They practiced, we learn, a modum specialem coeundi, a special form of intercourse, which was identical with Noyes’s Male Continence or the coitus reservatus permitted by Roman Catholic casuists. This kind of sexual intercourse, they declared, was known to Adam before the Fall and was one of the constituents of Paradise. It was a sacramental act of charity and, at the same time, of mystical cognition, and, as such, was called by the Brethren acclivitas– the upward path.

According to Aegidius Cantor, the leader of the Flemish Adamites in the first years of the fifteenth century, “the natural sexual act can take place in such a manner that it is equal in value to a prayer in the sight of God.” A Spanish follower of the Adamite heresy declared, at his trial that “after I had first had intercourse with her [the prophetess, Francisca Hernandez] for some twenty days, I could say that I had learned more wisdom in Valladolid than if I had studied for twenty years in Paris. For not Paris, but only Paradise could teach such wisdom.”

Like Noyes and his followers, the Adamites practiced a form of sexual communism, and practiced it not, as their enemies declared, out of a low taste for orgiastic promiscuity, but because Complex Marriage was a method by which every member of the group could love all the rest with an impartial and almost impersonal charity; could see and nuptially know in each beloved partner the embodiment of the original, unfallen Adam — a godlike son or daughter of God.

...

Male Continence is not merely a device for domesticating sexuality and heightening its psychological significance; it is also, as the history of the Oneida Community abundantly proves, a remarkably effective method of birth control. Indeed, under the name of coitus reservatus, it is one of the two methods of birth control approved by the authorities of the Roman Church — the other and more widely publicized method being the restriction of intercourse to the so-called safe periods.

Unfortunately large-scale field experiments in India have shown that, in the kind of society which has the most urgent need of birth control, the safe period method is almost useless. And whereas Noyes, the practical Yankee, devoted much time and thought to the problem of training his followers in Male Continence, the Roman Church has done little or nothing to instruct its youth in the art of coitus reservatus. (How odd it is that while primitive peoples, like the Trobrianders, are careful to teach their children the best ways of domesticating sex, we, the Civilized, stupidly leave ours at the mercy of their wild and dangerous passions!)

Meanwhile, over most of the earth, population is rising faster than available resources. There are more people with less to eat. But when the standard of living goes down, social unrest goes up, and the revolutionary agitator, who has no scruples about making promises which he knows very well he cannot keep, finds golden opportunities.

Confronted by the appalling dangers inherent in population increase at present rates, most governments have permitted and one or two have actually encouraged their subjects to make use of contraceptives. But they have done so in the teeth of protests from the Roman Church. By outlawing contraceptives and by advocating instead two methods of birth control, one of which doesn’t work, while the other, effective method is never systematically taught, the prelates of that Church seem to be doing their best to ensure, first, a massive increase in the sum of human misery and, second, the triumph, within a generation or two, of World Communism.

I did some more searching, and apparently the Cathars were accused of sodomy because they were against procreative sex. Their detractors failed to see what they were actually practicing. Anyways, I did some more looking on the site where this article is found, and it's all about this "Kerazza" technique. It has some very interesting and pertinent articles, IMO. For example, I think this is a good summary for everyone to check out. It's a powerpoint presentation:

_http://www.reuniting.info/download/The%20Hidden%20Factor%20in%20Relationship%20Disharmony.swf

The woman speaking (Marnia Robinson) is the author of the book Cupid's Poison Arrow, in which she describes how and why relationships turn stale. There's a lot of interesting stuff in there dealing with the mammalian brain, mating vs. bonding sex, hormones, bonding sex, etc. and it seems to me to describe some of what Gurdjieff was saying when he wrote:

Conscious love evokes the same in response.
Emotional love evokes the opposite.
Physical love depends on type and polarity.

It also seems to apply to some of the relationship phenomena Cleckley describes. After watching that video, see how she relates that info to pornography and masturbation:

_http://www.reuniting.info/wiki#porn
_http://www.reuniting.info/intoxicating_behaviors
_http://www.reuniting.info/node/4486
_http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201002/the-right-masturbation-advice

Here are some quotes from the above articles:

When you’re hit by Cupid’s arrow, you effectively become delusional. You don’t realize this, of course, because, well, you’re delusional. You’re convinced that the person you met last week at your buddy’s wedding is The One, and you expect the passion you’re feeling to keep you quivering with interest and ecstasy for a lifetime. (Scientists call this phenomenon “pair bonding,” and though they’re experts on the condition, they’ve been known to succumb to it themselves.) Cupid is a sneaky dude, or rather, the biological agenda he personifies doesn’t necessarily promote enduring love.

Cupid’s ammo is the first of a series of neurochemical impulses in a primitive part of your brain known as the limbic system—or “mammalian brain.” Your ancient mammalian brain is so powerful, so efficiently wired, that it often overwhelms your more recently evolved and considerably more realiable “rational brain.”

The mammalian brain’s mating agenda urges you to:
(1) fall in love recklessly with fireworks that propel sperm to egg,
(2) bond long enough to fall in love with your kids so they have two caregivers,
(3) get fed up with your mate,
(4) look for a new one.

This agenda improves the genetic variety of offspring, and the greater the variety, the better our genes’ chances of surviving into the future. Cold, heartless, but effective.
Lots of animals masturbate, but none with the intensity and ejaculation frequency of human males—except when in captivity (according to Leonard Shlain, MD).
Almost monthly, new research confirms that food can cause drug-like brain changes. Food and sex are known as "natural reinforcers." That is, they aren't drugs, but our brains light up for them so we reach for more without thinking.

Still, the concept that "food can cause obesity because it is like a drug" is perplexing. After all, our rather buff ancestors ate a lot, and quite evidently were enthusiastic about sex. Yet becoming dangerously hooked didn't seem to be much of a risk. Didn't their brains light up for food and sex? Yes, of course. The difference is that they weren't surrounded by superstimulating, synthetic versions of food and sex. We are, and it is a relatively recent hazard.

It seems that, just as we're poisoning our bodies with toxic foods, toxic sex has its effects, too! (and I don't mean that in the moralistic sense!)

Notice what Marnia says about bonding sex. Not only does it bring partners together, it actively helps the healing of old wounds. It utilizes the behaviors we've acquired for bonding with children to promote longlasting bonds with our partners, and these include: touching, gazing into the eyes, non-verbal calming vocalizations, etc. These are the things that psychopaths use to bond with their victims, as Laura described in the WWLP threads. And interestingly, it seems that this has always been a practice among true esoteric groups:

_http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/courtly_love_chivalry_cortezia_cathars_gnostics

One of the Cathars’ basic beliefs was that 'true love' was not the ordinary human love between husband and wife but rather the worship of a feminine savior (the Lady), a mediator between God and man, who waited in the sky to welcome the pure with a holy kiss and lead them into the Realm of Light. By contrast with this pure love, ordinary human sexuality and marriage were bestial and unspiritual. Cathars believed that the love of man and woman should be an earthly allegory of their spiritual love for the Queen of Heaven.

... Guillaume Belibaste, the last Cathar recorded to have burned at the stake in 1321, a victim of the Inquisition, is said to have prophesied that "at the end of seven hundred years the laurel would turn green again." Does that mean the the principles of Catharism, or "the true Christianity," would once again come to the world's attention? ...

Persecution sent the movement underground and into decline, but the troubadours of Provence spread elements of it throughout Europe under the guise of cortezia, the courtly love tradition. As a troubadour sang impassioned songs to his Lady pledging willing submission, those in the know would have recognized them as hymns venerating the Divine Feminine revered by the Cathars. Not surprisingly, Madonna worship rapidly increased during this period.

Just as in India where Tantra was waxing, higher love was in the air in Europe. Courtly love had echoes of tantric practice (more below). The mystical Jewish Kabbalah has also been traced to 12th century Provence.

Also around the same time, a venerated Sufi scholar, who wrote about the spiritual power in the union of male and female, Ibn al-`Arabi, was born in Spain in 1165.

Sufi courtship Contemplation of the Reality without formal support is not possible. . . . Since, therefore, some form of support is necessary, the best and most perfect kind is the contemplation of God in woman. The greatest union is that between man and woman. Ibn al-`Arabi ‘Bezels of Wisdom’
 
I'm in the early chapters of this book and it's really an eye-opener indeed. What troubles me the most (so far) is that all these authors who try to impose their perverse or skewed way of seeing things (sex, love, life) are usually a must-read in school. I remember having to read Gide, Fitzgerald, etc. when I was a teenager, a time when you wonder about sexuality and when your mind is wide open. then at university, we were told how great Eliot, Waugh, Swift, etc. were. It's crazy, when you think about it. It is truly troubling that literature teachers cannot for one minute take a step back, look at these authors' works and see the very bleak (at best) vision of love, sex and life they are portraying. Soon teenagers will have to study Crowley...
 
Laura said:
I want to add and emphasize again: do NOT spend time arguing with the anti-homosexual slant of this book. If you do, you'll never get through it and reap the valuable information. I started to read it the first time and put it down for that very reason and didn't pick it up again for about 9 years.

I'm glad you made this comment Laura, as I would never have persisted to the end. Thanks.

Approaching Infinity said:
Just finished reading Caricature of Love today. Wow. Yeah, it's disturbing at times, but I'm amazed and what else Cleckley manages to portray, beyond and above all the pathology, about Love. There were so many "Aha" moments intermingled between the shock, horror, disbelief, and sadness that makes up the majority of the book. And the last chapters were some of the most eye-opening and beautiful I've read!

Make that two!

And, thank you Approaching Infinity for the additional information contained in your post.
 
Cleckley didn't grok the political ponerology thing. He only saw psychopaths that were intermittantly dysfunctional. He also saw many that functioned well enough in life as doctors, psychiatrists, etc. I don't think he really grasped the full nature of the problem though he certainly isolated it sufficiently to give us a good view of the inner landscape of these creatures.

So, when he was noticing the disturbing nature of the anti-feminine influence in our world, he naturally attributed it to just homosexuality per se. He didn't get it that there is a kind of homosexual that is not really a homosexual, but is really anti-woman in all respects, and seeks to dominate others via sex. This is either their sole mode of domination, or just part of a wider range of dominating strategies. They are psychopaths and that's all there is to it and one of the core things about psychopathy is hatred of creation which is the feminine side of the cosmos. So, anything and everything creative/feminine is degraded, hated, and that is the substratum on which their personality is structured.

Notice that he only talks about one lesbian because you can't relate lesbianism to anti-feminism.

So, Cleckley erred in attributing this anti-feminine, anti-creation entropic force of nature to homosexuality of the NORMAL kind - that is, the sexual nature of a normal human with consciousness and conscience - but he did one heck of a job documenting and commenting on the characteristics of it and how it has poisoned society.

The thing we need to understand is that this is the attitude of all psychopaths towards women, whether they reveal themselves to be homosexual psychopaths or not. It is the attitude that is behind the creation of Judaism and Christianity and Islam and other pathological religious structures. It is the mental landscape of the pathological wealthy elite, and it is the mental landscape that has been externalized and imposed on normal men, pathologizing them, causing them to absorb and manifest deviant behavior because they don't really understand that they are swimming in filthy water which is the only way to describe the social influences that Cleckley has documented in this book.

The fact is, even normal homosexuals are influenced and twisted by this corruption so that it is very difficult for many of them to find a stable platform in life.

Men, every word you say, every automatic reaction to your partner, every THOUGHT you have about women and how to have a relationship with them is undoubtedly, certainly, positively, influenced by homosexual psychopathy attitudes inculcated in you as a child. You can take that to the bank.

It is SO important to observe the self, to question the self, to search out the roots of our attitudes and reactions to intimate relationships. Most normal (as in "not psychopathic") heterosexual men in our society actually act like sexual psychopaths in their relationships. Yeah, it is a kind of homosexuality because, remember, psychopathy is about dominance and control and to the psychopath, sex is just another tool to that end and dominating another man sexually is a feather in his cap. It's only the really pusillanimous and weak ones that go after little boys.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
_http://www.reuniting.info/download/The%20Hidden%20Factor%20in%20Relationship%20Disharmony.swf

The woman speaking (Marnia Robinson) is the author of the book Cupid's Poison Arrow, in which she describes how and why relationships turn stale. There's a lot of interesting stuff in there dealing with the mammalian brain, mating vs. bonding sex, hormones, bonding sex, etc. and it seems to me to describe some of what Gurdjieff was saying when he wrote:

snip

Thanks for the post AI, and the link to Marnia's chart presentation. Her presentation rang some bells for me and definitely answered some questions. I haven't read CoL yet but between your post, her presentation, and Laura's post, I'm getting the picture. Time to print it out.
 
Laura said:
Yeah, it is a kind of homosexuality because, remember, psychopathy is about dominance and control and to the psychopath, sex is just another tool to that end and dominating another man sexually is a feather in his cap. It's only the really pusillanimous and weak ones that go after little boys.

I have a question regarding paedophiles: according to Anna Salter in Predators, some of them are not psychopaths and do have a conscience. They usually 'rationalize' and minimize their actions ('he wanted it too', 'some people do worse', etc). And since she also says that all in all, the number of paedophiles who were actually molested or raped as children is rather low - about 30% - contrarily to what they want us to believe, so that, once again, we feel bad for them, I was wondering what are paedophiles who are neither psychopaths nor reproducing abuse? Are they some sort extreme pervert narcissists? Or is Anna Salter wrong and they fall in either category?

A quote that really struck me was the following:

Cleckley said:
Nothing they do sexually seems to afford them real satisfaction, so they keep on seeking new and stranger activities

It ties in with what Salter was writing in Predators about the fact that many paedophiles were saying that they were attracted to younger and younger victims, sometimes changing their gender preference and more importantly, that their fantasies (and unfortunately, their actions as well) were getting more and more violent as they aged. One man who was initially attracted to young teenagers was having fantasies about 10 year olds, then 7 year olds, etc. (I tried to skim the book and find the exact quote but couldn't and just thinking about re-reading entire paragraphs to find it makes me sick to my stomach to be honest... Sorry :-[).
 
Mrs.Tigersoap said:
I was wondering what are paedophiles who are neither psychopaths nor reproducing abuse? Are they some sort extreme pervert narcissists? Or is Anna Salter wrong and they fall in either category?

A quote that really struck me was the following:

Cleckley said:
Nothing they do sexually seems to afford them real satisfaction, so they keep on seeking new and stranger activities

It ties in with what Salter was writing in Predators about the fact that many paedophiles were saying that they were attracted to younger and younger victims, sometimes changing their gender preference and more importantly, that their fantasies (and unfortunately, their actions as well) were getting more and more violent as they aged. One man who was initially attracted to young teenagers was having fantasies about 10 year olds, then 7 year olds, etc. (I tried to skim the book and find the exact quote but couldn't and just thinking about re-reading entire paragraphs to find it makes me sick to my stomach to be honest... Sorry :-[).

My working hypothesis is that some of them adopt this highly disturbing behaviour due to a combination of an extremely unhealthy childhood with a genetic preponderance. Or in some cases simply either of those.

As I see it, paedophilia, can also fall under the category of addictive behaviour, and as with any addictive behaviour, the individual becomes addicted to a certain high state, a state of quickly achieved extreme pleasure. Once a pathway for that objective is explored, it soon becomes worn down, which then leads to the pursuit of something even stronger. In the case of a drug addict for example, this would be in the form of a stronger drug, or in the case of a paedophile, something more perverse.
Perversion can function like a drug, once an individual enters that path and wishes to continue, minor perversions will soon not be enough. He will then look for something stronger that reproduces or even enhances the sensations that the previous minor perversion gave him. This will lead him into exploring more and more within that path. The more perverse, the more intense the sensation it produces.

So the individual that we come to know about, lets say the one that abuses 3 years old children, could in some cases be the result of that spiraling down path into perversion.

I'm sure that I'm missing a lot of things with my hypotheses, but fwiw.

GRiM said:
Pete02, sorry I'm a bit late here, but I just wanted to say that I think you are brave to face your self. No one is perfect but to be able to see yourself, I think, is in the the only way to grow and become a better person.
Thank you for the post.

I second that, thank you Pete02 :)
 
Mrs.Tigersoap said:
Laura said:
Yeah, it is a kind of homosexuality because, remember, psychopathy is about dominance and control and to the psychopath, sex is just another tool to that end and dominating another man sexually is a feather in his cap. It's only the really pusillanimous and weak ones that go after little boys.

I have a question regarding paedophiles: according to Anna Salter in Predators, some of them are not psychopaths and do have a conscience. They usually 'rationalize' and minimize their actions ('he wanted it too', 'some people do worse', etc). And since she also says that all in all, the number of paedophiles who were actually molested or raped as children is rather low - about 30% - contrarily to what they want us to believe, so that, once again, we feel bad for them, I was wondering what are paedophiles who are neither psychopaths nor reproducing abuse? Are they some sort extreme pervert narcissists? Or is Anna Salter wrong and they fall in either category?

I think it's first important to get some definitions down. From reading the book, I got the impression that paedophilia is a problem where for whatever reason the sex drive gets "attached" to prepubescent boys and/or girls. I don't know how, but if it's imprinting, perhaps in a distorted way, as heterosexuals imprint to find opposite sex appealing, homosexuals the same sex. However, not all paedophiles abuse children and not all child molesters are paedophiles. For example, a heterosexual or homosexual psychopath might molest a child simply as a mode of domination (without having a compulsive sexual attraction / need to do so). I also wonder about the etiology of paedophilia, i.e. which types are susceptible to getting that kind of imprinting...
 
I'm a bit perplexed by some of the info on pedophiles in Anna Salter's work. For some reason, I don't think she really understands psychopathy. I'd like to see real evidence of a pedophile having empathy.
 
Mrs.Tigersoap said:
Thank you Gertrudes, A.I. and Laura for your input!

Me too, thank you!

Laura said:
They are psychopaths and that's all there is to it and one of the core things about psychopathy is hatred of creation which is the feminine side of the cosmos. So, anything and everything creative/feminine is degraded, hated, and that is the substratum on which their personality is structured.

I'm starting to see why our society's view of women is so. That STS wants to undo creation and that is why it doesn't respect the feminine. And this gets filtered down into what we see as our phallocentric society.
 
3D Student said:
Laura said:
They are psychopaths and that's all there is to it and one of the core things about psychopathy is hatred of creation which is the feminine side of the cosmos. So, anything and everything creative/feminine is degraded, hated, and that is the substratum on which their personality is structured.

I'm starting to see why our society's view of women is so. That STS wants to undo creation and that is why it doesn't respect the feminine. And this gets filtered down into what we see as our phallocentric society.

For a really repugnant and jaw-dropping look at just how psychopaths think of the feminine, read the short SOTT article, Judge: Let lesbians into military so male GIs can turn them straight. Just one of many articles about the psychopathic military-industrial complex that leaves you needing to take a shower afterward.
 

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