Putin Recognizes Donbass Republics, Sends Russian Military to 'Denazify' Ukraine

Tyomodachi said:
I would say that Svoboda won so many votes for one simple reason, the Russian protege Yanukovych became president. And so that he would not irrevocably enter the sphere of influence of Russia, thereby burying the desire in the EU, people began to massively vote for the most anti-Russian party at that time throughout Ukraine. As you can see, after the Maidan, when most parties became anti-Russian and Eurocentric, support for Svoboda fell.
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In fact, I have nothing against civic nationalism, such as in the Chinese ideology of Sun Yat-sen (Three Principles of the People) and there was a similar discussion on the forum Capitalism and Socialism: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
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Ok, thank you. It seems the situation is not as black and white as it may appear for outsiders.
 
This is highly recommended



The long and short of it is due to its place on the map and the geography of where it is, Ukraine being a part of NATO means Russia can never stand a chance of stopping a NATO invasion into Russia. Watch the video and you'll see why - the Nazis used Ukraine to launch their Invasion and this is all down to the geography. So if push comes to shove, Russia is going to start WW3 over Ukraine if it ever joins NATO. It's unfair on Ukraine but its stuck between 2 powers.

Again, Russia was never going to let Crimea go - NEVER. It's too strategically important. Again, look at the map.

This is shorter and good as well

 
SOTTREADER said:
I should clarify the intentions of my questions. This is not to doubt that Russia doesn't have a plan or that all / most scenarios would not have been gamed out meticulously with the ultimate plan factoring this in. Personally I am not consuming any mainstream news on this - I learnt from my early days in covid.

What I am doing in getting the news is looking at citizen driven material rather than organisational. Only organisation I am relying on is RT, certainly no Western ones.

Are people able to walk 2 opposing sides without becoming emotionally attached to the outcome they want? One thing is people are "in sides" and everyone is attached to the outcome they want to see. This in turn highly influences how they interpret information. Here I am talking about normal people, not organisations.

So okay, look - there is a disturbing mentality entrenched in Western Ukraine that is anti Russian and this resides in people's minds. This mentality is further made stronger by support from EU and US. This mentality is not defeated through military because it resides in people's minds. The "de-nazification" needs to be defined further. "De-militarisation" is one that can be understood as a concept and how this can be done practically in the real world. Btw, Ukrainian population looks highly divided such that unity or shared goals appears impossible.

It's not being hysterical - it's trying to understand how stated goals match up to observed reality. The best arguments I can see against the moves from the EU/US is that Russia gamed this out and EU/US are failed unions and it kind of feels like these are gross underestimations of the capabilities of EU/US.

The best outcome I can see, based on my interpretation of current situation is for negotiation and diplomacy. I don't see Russia having a decisive victory because the "anti Russian" sentiments that exist in that region exist in the minds of people and no missiles or bullets can operate in that sphere. My primary concern is the EU/US will now do everything they can to destroy russian economy and make the lives of people there as difficult as they possibly can - they will go to lengths they wouldn't have e.g. literally hunting down Russian assets abroad, banning flights, attacking central bank and whatever else they think of. Look, Russia is still part of Europe, has European heritage and I'm sure the Russian people will feel a pressure from being excluded from being able to travel to or do things in Europe or face massive stigma if they step outside Russia into Western influenced country. All I'm saying is these are big challenges now presented to the situation.

To repeat, I don't doubt the actions Russia is taking, I simply don't know what the intended outcome is beyond "de militarisation" and "de Nazification" of Ukraine. If it's of any doubt I am clearly concerned from the Russian perspective i.e. I would want an optimum outcome from what they are doing which will then have a positive impact on us. What I am not though is ideological and attached to specific outcomes - fully acknowledge that things can happen which no one has any control over, including Putin.

I hope this makes my current position clear.
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Negotiation and diplomacy with whom, exactly? The people who consider Stepan Bandera to be a great hero? The ones who are at the core of the same fascist structure that unleashed the thugs that burnt all those people alive in Odessa? The ones who set the military on their own people and have been responsible for what, 13,000 deaths in the Donbas?

Your position is clear, yes, but your proposed solution just doesn't mesh with what's been going on in Ukraine for the past several decades.

From SouthFront:

The case of the Minsk agreements on the conflict in Donbas clearly demonstrated that the Kiev regime is not able and does not want to follow any signed accords. Therefore, the current diplomatic dead end will likely be overcome only when all military infrastructure and forces of the criminal NATO-backed regime established in Ukraine are eliminated.
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Things are falling into place: When Putin said he's starting this war to stop a future global war he meant Ukraine can never be a part of NATO because NATO will then be able to invade Russia and Russia of course will fight back i.e. hence the future global war. So literally the fate of the world is affixed to Ukraine never ever joining NATO. Russia will never let this happen - like zero chance. To them a war is better than Ukraine joining NATO and that's because Russia's existence is underpinned by Ukraine never being in NATO.

Ukrainians need to understand the position they are in for there own sanity.
 
iamthatis said:
Negotiation and diplomacy with whom, exactly?
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Ultimately, to stop global war Ukraine will need to be a neutral country and for it to be a neutral country will need to involve diplomacy at some point. It's clear current Ukrainian government aren't interested so Russia will do what it has to do to ensure its own existence. This is the reality of the situation. NATO really have to accept this otherwise they are agreeing to a future global war where bullets, missiles and bombs will determine the outcome.
 
As I've understood, one of the biggest and most dangerous problems right now is that the CIA is probably right now doing what it usually does in these situations: creating an insurgency among the civilian Ukrainians by handing them weapons and whipping up their will to fight. The aim being that this will create mass casualties among these civilians, which will then be used as propagandistic ammunition to further vilify Russia and to get other outsiders, maybe volunteer fighters from neighboring countries to join. If they succeed in this it could escalate the situation considerably – it'll be like what happened in Syria. Another thing that is worrying is the high prospect of serious food shortages in Europe.

Regarding Russias advancement the following description from Southfront, if true, shows that the Ukrainian regime has little or no chance of winning this:

In total, the Russian Armed Forces destroyed 975 objects of the military infrastructure. This includes 23 command posts and communication centers, three radar posts, 31 S-300, Buk M-1 and Osa anti-aircraft missile systems, 48 radar stations. The Russian military shot down eight combat aircraft and seven helicopters, 11 drones and two Tochka-U tactical missiles. 223 tanks and other armored vehicles, 28 aircraft, 39 multiple rocket launchers, 86 field artillery pieces and mortars, 143 military vehicles were destroyed on the ground.
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Having listened to recent certain discussions I think it's quite plausible that (1) Putin and his aides have planned this operation for several years (2) the US had, maybe some months ago, got some intelligence on this and because they knew there was little or nothing they could do about it, they wanted to score 'credibility points' by announcing the 'imminent invasion' weeks ago through the MSM. Also, to regain credibility for the MSM, I'm sure.

Sorry to reference Prouty's 'Secret Team' all the time, but it's contents appear very relevant to what is going on: Prouty writes about how it is important to the CIA to give the impression that it is producing accurate and high quality intelligence information. According to Prouty, this is however not the CIA:s main function (even if acoording to US law it is) – the main function is to do clandestine operations (fun and games) all around the world. So now with their 'accurate prediction' of Russia attacking Ukraine they've gained a considerable amount of credibility.
 
aragorn said:
Sorry to reference Prouty's 'Secret Team' all the time, but it's contents appear very relevant to what is going on: Prouty writes about how it is important to the CIA to give the impression that it is producing accurate and high quality intelligence information. According to Prouty, this is however not the CIA:s main function (even if acoording to US law it is) – the main function is to do clandestine operations (fun and games) all around the world. So now with their 'accurate prediction' of Russia attacking Ukraine they've gained a considerable amount of credibility.
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Well, I wouldn't go that far. If you use a country to poke at another country, and that other country says, over and over again, that it won't tolerate this behavior indefinitely, then it's easy to 'predict' what they'll do.

The part they did not - and evidently still do not get - is what Russia is trying to do in Ukraine. Western pundits are mocking the Russian military because it has not yet 'won'. That's because they're seeing war fought in a way that is foreign to them. All they know is: first you level the entire country, then you roll in and 'mop up'. Unlike Washington and London, Moscow actually cares whether Russia-Ukraine relations are stained for all eternity.

Russians have implemented a no-fly zone over the whole of Ukraine. Their ground forces are steadily encircling key cities, where the Ukrainian forces have been ordered to take up positions in residential areas. The CIA-Kiev plan is to maximize civilian casualties for PR purposes. The Russian plan is to give them ample opportunities to surrender, and only then take them out.

This American in Kiev explains what is going on.
 
The United States response, on the other hand, was a surprise. It was unknown to everyone, including the Allies and Ukraine. That is why, according to its title, it is a "non-paper" (sic) that does not need to be submitted to them and had to remain secret. It is therefore highly unlikely that it was revealed by a Ukrainian source. It can only be American. This "non-paper" is about "Areas of engagement to improve security". In it, Washington presents itself as refusing to give up anything, although it is willing to negotiate to freeze the current situation. It would maintain its plans without seeking to gain any more ground.

This document sheds light on the recent public actions of NATO: a propaganda campaign denouncing an imminent Russian invasion, the deployment of soldiers around Ukraine and the transfer of arms to Ukraine itself. But the most important thing is that these troops and weapons are not capable of resisting a Russian invasion if it were to take place. On the other hand, this atmosphere is panicking the European leaders (in the broad sense, not only those of the European Union). Washington and London know that they may not respond in substance to Russia’s demand for compliance with the Treaties and that Moscow will not attack them for that. Their fear is elsewhere: just as Vladimir Putin tried in 2007 in Munich, Moscow may try to topple the allies one by one. But this time, the decline of US power may give them pause. They can see that they have little to gain from their allegiance. That is why the US CIA and the British MI6 reorganize the stay-behind networks with the consent of some European leaders who soon imagine themselves living in countries occupied by Russia.
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Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H. Bush Sr. publicly nurtured these networks in the Warsaw Pact countries, organizing vast economic and military sabotage operations. It was not until the collapse of the USSR that they came to light and were called upon to play a political role. They were very active in the NATO membership of the countries of Central, Balkan, Eastern and Baltic Europe. The support of the Latvian president, Vaira Vike-Freiberga, for Nazi demonstrations [8] or the entry of Nazi leaders into the Ukrainian government [9] are therefore not inexplicable accidents of fate, but public manifestations of the secret networks that sometimes manage to rise to the top of governments.
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Eventually, at some point, this or that ally will stop kowtowing to Washington and London. The pro-Chinese statements of Polish President Andrzej Duda or the pro-Russian statements of Croatian President Zoran Milanović give a foretaste of what might happen. In 1966, the Allies were surprised when French President Charles de Gaulle denounced the stay-behind networks and expelled Nato forces from his country. Their reaction would be different today if, once again, a NATO member were to leave the integrated command without questioning the North Atlantic Treaty. The European leaders, who often behave like sheep, could follow this new model and leave en bloc.
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US has a base in Poland while Kosovo is the location of the largest US military base in Europe. So a couple of words by these leaders mean next to nothing. Full capture is in place.

Took it from archive as page would not load otherwise.

These woke looking gestures say it all, these people are fools. They make a big News Splash because suddenly Sweden will now get a few more emails and satellite photos.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1497514809872502786

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Niall said:
Well, I wouldn't go that far. If you use a country to poke at another country, and that other country says, over and over again, that it won't tolerate this behavior indefinitely, then it's easy to 'predict' what they'll do.

The part they did not - and evidently still do not get - is what Russia is trying to do in Ukraine. Western pundits are mocking the Russian military because it has not yet 'won'. That's because they're seeing war fought in a way that is foreign to them. All they know is: first you level the entire country, then you roll in and 'mop up'. Unlike Washington and London, Moscow actually cares whether Russia-Ukraine relations are stained for all eternity.

Russians have implemented a no-fly zone over the whole of Ukraine. Their ground forces are steadily encircling key cities, where the Ukrainian forces have been ordered to take up positions in residential areas. The CIA-Kiev plan is to maximize civilian casualties for PR purposes. The Russian plan is to give them ample opportunities to surrender, and only then take them out.

This American in Kiev explains what is going on.
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Very accurate and good analysis from this American in Kiev. Thanks for sharing!
 
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