Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis

[John G]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Something that was said earlier about G. hydrogen system is not fitting right in my head, I missed who posted it, but it was something like the table of hydrogens represented a food chain, and the C's indicated that it was a materialistic system...

I don't see it that way, because I did not get a pyramid picture, the table of hydrogens did not represent a food-chain to me, even if he himself have thought so, it does not add up to me, My picture was a multidimensional interaction of forces and expressions of energy in different levels at different junctions in certain configurations. and the ongoing motion of everything a sort of vibration.

A Wikipedia entry describes how the table of elements was supposed to work:

...At point 3, Mi-Fa, occurs a "shock"...Point 6 being where "impressions", regarded as a type of food, are said to enter the body. "Impressions" are said to also have a "density" of 48, and can serve as a shock if they are intensified by some such means as the exercise of "self-remembering" taught by Gurdjieff... A further conscious shock, requiring "a special type of control over the emotions" at point 9 would enable a new "higher" or spiritual body to begin to grow, this is represented by Gurdjieff as the aim of his and other esoteric traditions... Ouspensky related the inner six-line figure of the Food Diagram enneagram to the circulation of the blood...

Hopefully that helps clarify the issue (somewhat). Though the details are complicated it is interesting to picture how events, foods, and internal processes correlate to form a subjective program.

Ouspensky, a math guy, wasn't doing Gurdjieff any favors by going to a very materialistic interpretation in general. In ISOTM, Ouspensky mentions getting worried when Gurdjieff mentions angels and archangels but Ouspensky kind of consoled himself thinking those were just symbols for the old sun, planets, etc. things. We in this forum kind of did the opposite, consoling ourselves thinking sun/planet things were codes for more hyperdimensional things. The law of 3 here though with a body mediating environmental shocks and self remembering (hopefully on the way to being more spiritual) sounds good.

July 03, 1999
Q: (A) ...Last question: I was thinking about what is the most important for me at the present, and I think that I want to understand and implement this concept of densities; to implement it into physics and mathematics. But, it seems to me that I am completely alone with that. I would like to know where should I look, because certainly other people have already tried to do it. I don't want to start from scratch if there is something that I can look at or study before I really jump into this difficult project. Were there people, scientists... where to look?

A: Study the works of Gurdjieff and Jung, for starters. Also, Vallee is on a similar path, and a little ahead of you. He would be most approachable, if you can convince him of your sincerity.

Q: (A) Vallee? Okay, I finished my questions...

A: Okay, so until the next, goodbye.
End of Session

Mixing Gurdjieff with some Jung apparently can be good in a Vallee hyperdimensional way. Each hydrogen is the sum of two binary number "bits", a bivector math-wise. Bivectors are useful not only for physics but for Jung's personality model and Gurdjieff's Enneagram used as a modern personality model. The hydrogen's bivector scheme however isn't overly useful in a strict math sense. In Enneagram personality terms, hydrogens basically just divide up the 8-9-1 (instinctive triad), 2-3-4 (feeling triad), and 5-6-7 (thinking triad) from each other. The feeling and thinking here also relate to Jungian personality functions. For me this is also loosely related to the math property triality (via Tony Smith who relates triality to a triangular face of a cuboctahedron).

 

[Laura]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology


I think that some of you having trouble grokking some things will achieve some real understanding by the time you finish reading the recommended texts, INCLUDING Raine's work. What we don't know about our brains can really be a barrier to understanding!!! And I'll tell you that "Anatomy of Violence" is going to be a real roller-coaster too!

 

[Ca.]

Re: Session 14 October 2017

Everyone needs to read Adrian Raine's book "The Anatomy of Violence". It's about much more than just that. Indeed, conditioning and external environment CAN CHANGE THE HARDWARE!!!

Biological Roots of Crime with Adrian Raine (1:24:30)
SaintScholastica Published on Nov 13, 2015

http://<iframe width="560" height="...=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The Anatomy of Violence: The Biological Roots of Crime Paperback – February 11, 2014
https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Violence-Biological-Roots-Crime/dp/0307475611
Kindle Edition $9.98
https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Violence-Biological-Roots-Crime-ebook/dp/B00ADNP28E/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=&dpID=41z1BCofhbL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=detail

 

[Laura]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology


Thanks c.a. for the video which I moved from the session thread to here (note, I asked for discussion on these lines to be placed here, not there!).

The video is not really that helpful because he attacks his subject from the wrong way. But that's to be expected. The written text is detailed, thorough, and proceeds from the foundations to the conclusions. In this video, he's all over the place and the viewer does not have a good foundation for really understanding what he is saying. In the time alotted, he is only able to hit high spots and all the essential info about the brain itself, including NORMAL brains, is omitted.

I posted a comment under the video:

Prof. Raine is wrong about smoking because the study did not control for the chemical additives in cigarettes such as cadmium and lead and more. Further, nicotine has been shown in many other studies to be neuroprotective, to increase the number of acetylcholine receptors, and all hemotologists know that smokers carry MORE oxygen in their blood than non-smokers. However, it is understood that toeing the neo-liberal party line of "anti-smoking fascism" is almost required to get funding for scientific studies.

 

[Ca.]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Thanks c.a. for the video which I moved from the session thread to here (note, I asked for discussion on these lines to be placed here, not there!).

The video is not really that helpful because he attacks his subject from the wrong way. But that's to be expected. The written text is detailed, thorough, and proceeds from the foundations to the conclusions. In this video, he's all over the place and the viewer does not have a good foundation for really understanding what he is saying. In the time alotted, he is only able to hit high spots and all the essential info about the brain itself, including NORMAL brains, is omitted.

I posted a comment under the video:

Prof. Raine is wrong about smoking because the study did not control for the chemical additives in cigarettes such as cadmium and lead and more. Further, nicotine has been shown in many other studies to be neuroprotective, to increase the number of acetylcholine receptors, and all hemotologists know that smokers carry MORE oxygen in their blood than non-smokers. However, it is understood that toeing the neo-liberal party line of "anti-smoking fascism" is almost required to get funding for scientific studies.

Pardon. Thank you Laura for the correction.

 

[genero81]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

I think that some of you having trouble grokking some things will achieve some real understanding by the time you finish reading the recommended texts, INCLUDING Raine's work. What we don't know about our brains can really be a barrier to understanding!!! And I'll tell you that "Anatomy of Violence" is going to be a real roller-coaster too!

I think some of what you are referring to is at least somewhat covered in the book 'Incognito: The Secret Lives of Brains' I won't know for sure until I read the Raine books. It was interesting because the author, David Eagleman didn't really get to the crux of the matter until the last chapter or two where he discusses how all this research may effect, or is effecting the criminal justice system.

Anyway, Do you want us to read Anatomy of Violence last? Or can we jump into it sooner. I don't have far to go on Speculum Mentis and I've made a start on the Gurdjieff book and Psychopathy: An Introduction...

 

[Laura]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Anyway, Do you want us to read Anatomy of Violence last? Or can we jump into it sooner. I don't have far to go on Speculum Mentis and I've made a start on the Gurdjieff book and Psychopathy: An Introduction...

Finish Speculum Mentis and then read Anatomy. Then Gurdjieff and finally Psychopathy. That's a pretty decent order.

 

[genero81]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Anyway, Do you want us to read Anatomy of Violence last? Or can we jump into it sooner. I don't have far to go on Speculum Mentis and I've made a start on the Gurdjieff book and Psychopathy: An Introduction...

Finish Speculum Mentis and then read Anatomy. Then Gurdjieff and finally Psychopathy. That's a pretty decent order.

Perfect! Will do

 

[John G]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Each hydrogen is the sum of two binary number "bits", a bivector math-wise. Bivectors are useful not only for physics but for Jung's personality model and Gurdjieff's Enneagram used as a modern personality model. The hydrogen's bivector scheme however isn't overly useful in a strict math sense. In Enneagram personality terms, hydrogens basically just divide up the 8-9-1 (instinctive triad), 2-3-4 (feeling triad), and 5-6-7 (thinking triad) from each other. The feeling and thinking here also relate to Jungian personality functions.

I noticed it doesn't take much of a change to make the hydrogens possibly useful in a strict math way. If you assign the hydrogens halving scheme (768-384-192...) to the "powers of 2" order for the law of 7 (1; 2; 4; 8; 1+6=7; 3+2=5) instead of the numerical 1-2-4-5-7-8 then the "bits" of the hydrogens would match Jungian (MBTI) factors for a particular plotting of the Enneagram vertices on to MBTI axes.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

I read The Idea of History back when it was first posted (in August I think) by Laura. I reread it immediately after finishing - skimming through the first four parts, then rereading part five thoroughly. It was an amazing read. I think I'm going to do the same again - skim through the first four parts, and then concentrate on part five carefully before reading the other books.

 

[Laura]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology


For forum members and general readers of this thread, please check out the Stocism and Paul thread here:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,43935.0.html

We plan to parse all the information we have acquired thus far in order to formulate a cosmology utilizing what we know from Cs, Gurdjieff, Collingwood and modern psychology and cognitive science. Additionally, we hope to clarify a reliable anthropology, ontology, epistemology, and ethics as described in the Stoicism-Paul thread.

We think the world needs something better than what has passed for understanding the nature of our reality and our place within it up to now.

 

[John G]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Given what the Cs said about Enneagram being useful in a 3rd density way, being half right as a personality model, and the hydrogens being on to something related to neurotransmitters/hormones; I'd be interested in knowing if linking neurotransmitters/hormones to personality models (Enneagram, Jungian, Peterson's use of the Big 5, etc.) is useful. Given things I've read about dopamine and serotonin and given the general idea of testosterone/estrogen relating to males/females; I think Helen Fisher's linking of brain chemicals to temperament could be an OK starting point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Fisher_(anthropologist)

Character Attribute Temperament Color Chemical
Explorer creative Artisan yellow dopamine
Builder sensible Guardian blue serotonin
Director reasoning Rational red testosterone
Negotiator intuitive Idealist green estrogen/oxytocin

 

[PERLOU]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Merci Laura pour nous avoir donné ce lien passionnant...

Thank you Laura for giving us this exciting link ...

 

[biala84]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology



I also think is good to collect All the information about the cosmology. I have that idea like round about two weeks. I would also like to write something from my (Ours) part like my observation plus what i learn from Cassiopaean's , Gurdjieff including too and the books i read . I think it's good moment to share with another members in which world (Universe) we are living. Like Laura said the world needs something better then what happend till now, but only in that way i mean sharing the information and knowing what went wrong in Our history by discovering truth we can change Our World :) It's not only about history, but what is happening now also U need to be everytime truth and that how we can make world better :)

 

[JGeropoulas]

Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

For forum members and general readers of this thread, please check out the Stocism and Paul thread here:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,43935.0.html

We plan to parse all the information we have acquired thus far in order to formulate a cosmology utilizing what we know from Cs, Gurdjieff, Collingwood and modern psychology and cognitive science. Additionally, we hope to clarify a reliable anthropology, ontology, epistemology, and ethics as described in the Stoicism-Paul thread.

We think the world needs something better than what has passed for understanding the nature of our reality and our place within it up to now.

That's a great idea that should be enriching to carry out, and certainly beneficial to all who may read it as it gets disseminated.

Given what the Cs said about Enneagram being useful in a 3rd density way, being half right as a personality model, and the hydrogens being on to something related to neurotransmitters/hormones; I'd be interested in knowing if linking neurotransmitters/hormones to personality models (Enneagram, Jungian, Peterson's use of the Big 5, etc.) is useful. Given things I've read about dopamine and serotonin and given the general idea of testosterone/estrogen relating to males/females; I think Helen Fisher's linking of brain chemicals to temperament could be an OK starting point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Fisher_(anthropologist)

Character Attribute Temperament Color Chemical
Explorer creative Artisan yellow dopamine
Builder sensible Guardian blue serotonin
Director reasoning Rational red testosterone
Negotiator intuitive Idealist green estrogen/oxytocin

That's a very interesting concept I hadn't come across before.