Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis

Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

shellycheval said:
Raine
Complete free will is sadly an illusion - a mirage. I wish it were not, because I too find this perspective unsettling. But there we have it. ...
Responsibility and self-reflection are not disembodied, ethereal processes but are instead rooted firmly in the brain. Functional imaging research has shown that the medial prefrontal cortex is centrally involved in the ability to engage in self-reflection.

Given this, it would seem that those who have the ability to choose, to some degree on the continuum, would able to strengthen their ability through meditation/prayer type activities, or are we fooling ourselves with wishful thinking regarding our ability to change in this respect too?

It seems so. If those things can help the seriously damaged brain to at least partially repair itself, then it seems that they would take the normal brain beyond regular functioning. Raine describes the effects of these things on the brain and one can extrapolate from there though I wouldn't go TOO far.

It seems to me to be crucially important to learn as much about our brains as we can so that we can identify where there might be things that can be improved or enhanced. He talks a good deal about ADHD and what is wrong with the brain to produce this and things that can more or less fix it. There's a remarkable case history in there about that.
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Anthony said:
I was thinking that the stage of being completely mechanical might be a necessary prerequisite to a higher state of being, i.e. you need to be glued for a certain period of time in 3D before you've had enough and start searching for a different way of being (that seems to be part of what Collingwood wrote in Speculum Mentis).

I'm still reading 'The Idea of History' and will be getting 'Speculum Mentis.' I think what you say makes sense since what I gather from the Gurdjieff Work, especially as it's practiced today is that it's about the development of (material) 'being bodies' and not about growth via learning lessons which is a prerequisite to graduation. So once again, imo, the present G groups are focused on, in a sense, "material things," that is, the shiny objects and not on continuous learning and receiving new information from a progressively 'tuned' group dynamic.
 
Re: R. G. Collingwood: The Idea of History

Thank you Pierre,J agree with findit it would be good you write your experience in writing the book with Laura ,the thought
process and have you adopted something of it
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Knowledge is good even when disconcerting. Besides, we pretty much knew this already. Physicality at this level is a restriction. Now we are learning a little more about the details of same. AND, we have help from ourselves in the future. Of course, ourselves here must do the work (all we can) but it's not so bad - I mean the world is baaaad right now and we must not turn away. BUT, learning and discovering are not so bad at all! OSIT
 
Re: R. G. Collingwood: The Idea of History

findit said:
I think you should write an article about your experience. I would like to know the thought processes you discussed while working on the book.

Agirl said:
Thank you Pierre,J agree with findit it would be good you write your experience in writing the book with Laura ,the thought
process and have you adopted something of it

Thanks for your encouragements.

Actually we talked about the process of writing history with Laura a few days ago.

As mentioned by Collingwood, history is when an historian thinks now about the way a historical character was thinking in the past. If you want to know and describe this process, it's even more complicated.

There's not two levels of thinking any more but three: you have to think about how you think about the way of thinking of a historical character!

Another thing that emerged from the above mentioned discussion is this kind of altered state that occurs when you have absorbed so much data (relating to a wide spectrum of topics like economy, religion, sociology, philosophy, hard sciences...) about the period of history you study that you sort of recreate this whole context in your mind and when you try to understand a historical event, you do so while not being in today's context but in total submersion in the whole context of the period of history you study.

It's almost like a time machine. Well, I never experienced such an immersion but that's what Laura reported and from my observations of her writing process, I think this is indeed occurring and probably constitutes the key factor when one wants to write proper history.
 
Re: R. G. Collingwood: The Idea of History

Finally finished the book. Fascinating read! Here are some interesting thoughts.

Pierre said:
In this same final part, Collingwood exposes a fascinating idea: the understanding of history and the understanding of oneself are intimately related. You can’t have one without having the other. This was a ‘aha’ moment because it answered a question I had been asking myself for a while.
[...]

Here is how he explains it in short:

Knowing yourself means knowing, first, what it is to be a man; secondly, knowing what it is to be the kind of man you are; and thirdly, knowing what it is to be the man you are and nobody else is. Knowing yourself means knowing what you can do; and since nobody knows what he can do until he tries, the only clue to what man can do is what man has done. The value of history, then, is that it teaches us what man has done and thus what man is.[...]

Man, who desires to know everything, desires to know himself. Nor is he only one (even if, to himself, perhaps the most interesting) among the things he desires to know. Without some knowledge of himself, his knowledge of other things is imperfect: for to know something without knowing that one knows it is only a half-knowing, and to know that one knows is to know oneself. Self-knowledge is desirable and important to man, not only for its own sake, but as a condition without which no other knowledge can be critically justified and securely based.

Self-knowledge, here, means not knowledge of man’s bodily nature, his anatomy and physiology; nor even a knowledge of his mind, so far as that consists of feeling, sensation, and emotion; but a knowledge of his knowing faculties, his thought or understanding or reason.

The processes of nature can therefore be properly described as sequences of mere events, but those of history cannot. They are not processes of mere events but processes of actions, which have an inner side, consisting of processes of thought; and what the historian is looking for is these processes of thought. All history is the history of thought. But how does the historian discern the thoughts which he is trying to discover? There is only one way in which it can be done: by re-thinking them in his own mind.[...]

The history of thought, and therefore all history, is the re-enactment of past thought in the historian’s own mind.[...]

The historian not only re-enacts past thought, he re-enacts it in the context of his own knowledge and therefore, in re-enacting it, criticizes it, forms his own judgement of its value, corrects whatever errors he can discern in it.[...]

Historical knowledge is the knowledge of what mind has done in the past, and at the same time it is the redoing of this, the perpetuation of past acts in the present.[...]

[...]since the historical present includes in itself its own past, the real ground on which the whole rests, namely the past out of which it has grown, is not outside it but is included within it. If these systems remain valuable to posterity, that is not in spite of their strictly historical character but because of it. To us, the ideas expressed in them are ideas belonging to the past; but it is not a dead past; by understanding it historically we incorporate it into our present thought, and enable ourselves by developing and criticizing it to use that heritage for our own advancement.

About cyclical character of nature versus spiral character of history:

...this cyclical movement is not a mere rotation of history through a cycle of fixed phases; it is not a circle but a spiral; for history never repeats itself but comes round to each new phase in a form differentiated by what has gone before. [...]

...the processes of nature are not historical: nature has no history. The processes of nature are cyclical; nature goes round and round, and nothing is constructed or built up by the repetition of such revolutions. [...]

History, on the contrary, never repeats itself; its movements travel not in circles but in spirals, and apparent repetitions are always differentiated by having acquired something new. Thus wars reappear from time to time in history, but every new war is in some ways a new kind of war, owing to the lessons learnt by human beings in the last one.

About connectedness of past and present:

[...]what gives value to past facts is the fact that they are not mere past facts, they are not a dead past but a living past, a heritage of past thoughts which by the work of his historical consciousness the historian makes his own. The past cut off from the present, converted into a mere spectacle, can have no value at all; it is history converted into nature.

The living past of history lives in the present; but it lives not in the immediate experience of the present, but only in the self-knowledge of the present.[...]

All history is contemporary history: not in the ordinary sense of the word, where contemporary history means the history of the comparatively recent past, but in the strict sense: the consciousness of one’s own activity as one actually performs it. History is thus the self-knowledge of the living mind. For even when the events which the historian studies are events that happened in the distant past, the condition of their being historically known is that they should ‘vibrate in the historian’s mind’[...]

Existence as activity of thinking:

[...]psychology, as a naturalistic science, cannot grasp mind as it actually is; it can only study the immediate data of consciousness, our sensations and feelings; but the essence of mind is that it knows, that is, has as its objects not mere states of itself but a real world. What enables it to know is the fact that it thinks; and the activity of thought is a free or self-creative process, which depends on nothing else except itself in order to exist. If then we ask why thought exists, the only possible answer is that existence itself, whatever else it may be, is the activity of thinking.

This reminds me of this C's quote (Session 3 February 1996):

[...]Now, a shocker for you: You would not exist if someone didn't "dream you up."

Q: (L) Who dreamed me up?

A: Not important just yet. You literally are the "figments" of someone's imagination, and nothing more!!!

Q: (L) You mean God dreams and brings us into existence?

A: Remember, "God" is really all existence in creation, in other words, all consciousness. This is because all existence in creation is consciousness, and vice versa.


About the science of human nature:

It seems a fair enough proposal that, in setting out to understand the nature of our own mind, we should proceed in the same way as when we try to understand the world about us.[...]

The thesis which I shall maintain is that the science of human nature was a false attempt — falsified by the analogy of natural science — to understand the mind itself, and that, whereas the right way of investigating nature is by the methods called scientific, the right way of investigating mind is by the methods of history.[...]

History as knowledge of mind:

It is only by historical thinking that I can discover what I thought ten years ago, by reading what I then wrote, or what I thought five minutes ago, by reflecting on an action that I then did, which surprised me when I realized what I had done. In this sense, all knowledge of mind is historical. The only way in which I can know my own mind is by performing some mental act or other and then considering what the act is that I have performed.

In realizing its own rationality, mind also realizes the presence in itself of elements that are not rational. They are not body; they are mind, but not rational mind or thought. To use an old distinction, they are psyche or soul as distinct from spirit. These irrational elements are the subject-matter of psychology. They are the blind forces and activities in us which are part of human life as it consciously experiences itself, but are not parts of the historical process: sensation as distinct from thought, feelings as distinct from conceptions, appetite as distinct from will. Their importance to us consists in the fact that they form the proximate environment in which our reason lives, as our physiological organism is the proximate environment in which they live. They are the basis of our rational life, though no part of it. Our reason discovers them, but in studying them it is not studying itself. By learning to know them, it finds out how it can help them to live in health, so that they can feed and support it while it pursues its own proper task, the self-conscious creation of its own historical life.

History as Re-enactment of Past Experience:

If then the historian has no direct or empirical knowledge of his facts, and no transmitted or testimoniary knowledge of them, what kind of knowledge has he: in other words, what must the historian do in order that he may know them? My historical review of the idea of history has resulted in the emergence of an answer to this question: namely, that the historian must re-enact the past in his own mind.[...]

The contention that an act cannot happen twice because the flow of consciousness carries it away is thus false. Its falsity arises from an ignoratio elenchi. So far as experience consists of mere consciousness, of sensations and feelings pure and simple, it is true. But an act of thought is not a mere sensation or feeling. It is knowledge, and knowledge is something more than immediate consciousness. The process of knowledge is therefore not a mere flow of consciousness. A person whose consciousness was a mere succession of states, by whatever name these states are called, could have no knowledge whatever. He could not remember his own past states, for (even granting that his states are connected together by certain psychological laws, ex hypothesi to him unknowable) he would not remember being burnt but would only fear the fire. Nor could he perceive the world around him; he would fear, but would not recognize that which he feared as the fire. Least of all would he, or anyone else, know that his consciousness was the mere succession of states that it is alleged to be. If, then, mere consciousness is a succession of states, thought is an activity by which that succession is somehow arrested so as to be apprehended in its general structure: something for which the past is not dead and gone, but can be envisaged together with the present and compared with it. Thought itself is not involved in the flow of immediate consciousness; in some sense it stands outside that flow.

Thought can never be mere object. To know someone else’s activity of thinking is possible only on the assumption that this same activity can be re-enacted in one’s own mind. In that sense, to know ‘what someone is thinking’ (or ‘has thought’) involves thinking it for oneself. To reject this conclusion means denying that we’ have any right to speak of acts of thought at all, except such as take place in our own minds, and embracing the doctrine that my mind is the only one that exists.[...]

It has shown that an act of thought can be not only performed at an instant but sustained over a lapse of time; not only sustained, but revived; not only revived in the experience of the same mind but (on pain of solipsism) re-enacted in another’s. But this does not prove the possibility of history. For that, we must be able not only to re-enact another’s thought but also to know that the thought we are re-enacting is his. But so far as we re-enact it, it becomes our own; it is merely as our own that we perform it and are aware of it in the performance; it has become subjective, but for that very reason it has ceased to be objective; become present, and therefore ceased to be past.[...]

The act of thinking, then, is not only subjective but objective as well. It is not only a thinking, it is something that can be thought about. But, because (as I have already tried to show) it is never merely objective, it requires to be thought about in a peculiar way, a way only appropriate to itself. It cannot be set before the thinking mind as a ready-made object, discovered as something independent of that mind and studied as it is in itself, in that independence. It can never be studied ‘objectively’, in the sense in which ‘objectively’ excludes ‘subjectively’. It has to be studied as it actually exists, that is to say, as an act. And because this act is subjectivity (though not mere subjectivity) or experience, it can be studied only in its own subjective being, that is, by the thinker whose activity or experience it is. This study is not mere experience or consciousness, not even mere self-consciousness: it is self-knowledge. Thus the act of thought in becoming subjective does not cease to be objective; it is the object of a self-knowledge which differs from mere consciousness in being self-consciousness or awareness, and differs from being mere self-consciousness in being self-knowledge: the critical study of one’s own thought, not the mere awareness of that thought as one’s own.

Here it is possible to answer a tacit question which was left open when I said that a person who performs an act of knowing can also know that he ‘is performing or has performed’ that act. Which is it? Clearly, the first: for the act of thought has to be studied as it actually exists, that is, as an act. But this does not exclude the second. We have already seen that if mere experience is conceived as a flow of successive states, thought must be conceived as something that can apprehend the structure of this flow and the forms of succession which it exhibits: that is, thought is able to think the past as well as the present. Where thought studies the activity of thinking itself, therefore, it is equally able to study past acts of thinking and compare them with the present act. But there is a difference between the two cases. If I now think about a feeling which I had in the past, it may be true that thinking about it occasions, or else perhaps depends for its possibility on the independent occurrence of, an echo of that feeling in the present: that, for example, I could not think of the anger I once felt except so far as I now experience at least a faint vibration of anger in my mind. But whether this is true or not, the actual past anger of which I am thinking is past and gone; that does not reappear, the stream of immediate experience has carried it away for ever; at most there reappears something like it. The gap of time between my present thought and its past object is bridged not by the survival or revival of the object, but only by the power of thought to overleap such a gap; and the thought which does this is memory.

If, on the contrary, what I think about is a past activity of thought, for example a past philosophical inquiry of my own, the gap is bridged from both sides. To think at all about that past activity of thought, I must revive it in my own mind, for the act of thinking can be studied only as an act. But what is so revived is not a mere echo of the old activity, another of the same kind; it is that same activity taken up again and re-enacted, perhaps in order that, doing it over again under my own critical inspection, I may detect in it false steps of which critics have accused me. In thus re-thinking my past thought I am not merely remembering it. I am constructing the history of a certain phase of my life: and the difference between memory and history is that whereas in memory the past is a mere spectacle, in history it is re-enacted in present thought. So far as this thought is mere thought, the past is merely re-enacted; so far as it is thought about thought, the past is thought of as being re-enacted, and my knowledge of myself is historical knowledge. The history of myself is thus not memory as such, but a peculiar case of memory. Certainly, a mind which could not remember could not have historical knowledge. But memory as such is only the present thought of past experience as such, be that experience what it may; historical knowledge is that special case of memory where the object of present thought is past thought, the gap between present and past being bridged but only by the power of present thought to think of the past, but also by the power of past thought to reawaken itself in the present.

Explaining Recall cognitive bias
[...]but if he relies on these associations to tell him what the thought was, he is more than likely to be misled. He will probably fall into the mistake of substituting for it another which came to him later. Thus politicians, in writing their autobiographies, remember very well the impacts and emotions of a crisis, but are apt, in describing the policy they then advocated, to contaminate it with ideas that belonged in fact to a later stage in their career. And this is natural: because thought is not wholly entangled in the flow of experience, so that we constantly reinterpret our past thoughts and assimilate them to those we are thinking now.

The peculiarity of thought is that, in addition to occurring here and now in this context, it can sustain itself through a change of context and revive in a different one. This power to sustain and revive itself is what makes an act of thought more than a mere ‘event’ or ‘situation’.

The Subject-matter of History:

[...]there is another condition without which a thing cannot become the object of historical knowledge. The gulf of time between the historian and his object must be bridged, as I have said, from both ends. The object must be of such a kind that it can revive itself in the historian’s mind; the historian’s mind must be such as to offer a home for that revival. This does not mean that his mind must be of a certain kind, possessed of an historical temperament; nor that he must be trained in special rules of historical technique. It means that he must be the right man to study that object. What he is studying is a certain thought: to study it involves re-enacting it in himself; and in order that it may take its place in the immediacy of his own thought, his thought must be, as it were, pre-adapted to become its host.[...]

So we have to be properly tuned in to be able to retrieve some data from the timeless information field.

The peculiarity of thought, then, is that it is not mere consciousness but self-consciousness. The self, as merely conscious, is a flow of consciousness, a series of immediate sensations and feelings; but as merely conscious it is not aware of itself as such a flow; it is ignorant of its own continuity through the succession of experiences. The activity of becoming aware of this continuity is what is called thinking.
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

And maybe working on ourself, to be the best we can be, despite adverse genetics and/or early influences, might set the scene for the next life to be more fruitful for spiritual advancement. It just might not happen in this life-time. So for me - despite the notion that my free-will might be quite diminished - this means that I will plod onwards nevertheless. What alternative is there, anyway?
 
Re: R. G. Collingwood: The Idea of History


Thanks for those marvelous quotes, Altair. From my perspective, what Collingwood has described is real "self-remembering" and he describes it in detail so that the person attempting to "know himself" has some sort of template. It's a far more advanced version of "self-remembering" than anything G promoted.

More than that, what Collingwood has written about Mind, coupled with what the Cs remarked, suggests strongly that the "scientific view" of things as we read in Adrian Raine's book is NOT ALL THERE IS. It is certainly valuable information because a person really needs to know how the apparatus works in order to supersede it - and if it is possible to supersede it - but it stops short of really describing MIND. I think that Raine is vaguely aware of that though he has fallen into the trap of believing that the apparatus is all there is; and, in a way, G did the same thing with his mechanistic view of the world and human beings. Collingwood disabuses us of that notion entirely.

Also notice the difference between the cycle and the spiral and G's insistence on the cycle in terms of the enneagram, his insistence on the entirely mechanical nature of the cosmos. As we noted in the recent Cs' session, that appears to be rather a description of 3D reality without conscious STO input. And G's original cosmos appears to be 4D reality.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I've only come half way of Collingwood's Idea of History, and at times I feel frustrated because of the slow reading pace. I often have to read passages several times to understand them, and sometimes I'm not even sure if I've understood it correctly.

I'm probably getting ahead of myself, but one thing I started thinking while reading the book is: what about psychopatology? I mean, if you're supposed to re-enact and re-think in your mind the history/actions/thoughts of individuals, wouldn't it be important to have an understanding of pathological behavior, psychopaths etc.? Particularly, since we can suspect that many of the past world leaders have been pathological in a way or another. So far I haven't seen Collingwood mention anything about this.

Reading all this, makes me want to "beat myself up" for having lionized Gurdjieff for so long. In a sense, he has for long been "the man", "the superior mind" and "know it all", from whom (by reading) I've sought comfort in understanding all this madness. I've fallen in the trap of taking his words as gospel. I have to admit, that e.g. Gurdjieff's cosmology and hydrogens never made too much sense to me, but I thought that I wasn't intelligent enough to fully grasp those concepts. And the theory of truth and knowledge being limited (that it can't be distributed to all) did sound illogical, but I created the same narrative in my mind as with the previous theories: that with his superior intellect, this must be true. :(
 
Re: R. G. Collingwood: The Idea of History

Laura said:
Thanks for those marvelous quotes, Altair. From my perspective, what Collingwood has described is real "self-remembering" and he describes it in detail so that the person attempting to "know himself" has some sort of template. It's a far more advanced version of "self-remembering" than anything G promoted.

More than that, what Collingwood has written about Mind, coupled with what the Cs remarked, suggests strongly that the "scientific view" of things as we read in Adrian Raine's book is NOT ALL THERE IS. It is certainly valuable information because a person really needs to know how the apparatus works in order to supersede it - and if it is possible to supersede it - but it stops short of really describing MIND. I think that Raine is vaguely aware of that though he has fallen into the trap of believing that the apparatus is all there is; and, in a way, G did the same thing with his mechanistic view of the world and human beings. Collingwood disabuses us of that notion entirely.

Also notice the difference between the cycle and the spiral and G's insistence on the cycle in terms of the enneagram, his insistence on the entirely mechanical nature of the cosmos. As we noted in the recent Cs' session, that appears to be rather a description of 3D reality without conscious STO input. And G's original cosmos appears to be 4D reality.

Laura said:
Altair said:
luc said:
In addition to that, while reading Collingwood I thought about the idea that present, past and future are very much related - they are unified in the human "historical mind", that is, we only really know and act in the present, but this acting and knowing is shaped by the past, and it shapes the future. [...]

I agree. And if we assume that there is no linear time and past, present and future are happening simultaneously (which we can't perceive fully), so maybe we can call this "historical mind" timeless morphic collective consciousness field (information field) in which all thoughts of all the people from the past and the present (and future?) exist simultaneously which makes it relatively "easy" e.g. for a historian to tap into the mind of people who lived in the past and tune in with their thoughts in order to reenact them AND develop them further.

Yes, and what is so fascinating to me is the congruence of Collingwood's ideas to those things the Cs have said about time, knowledge, history, origins, etc. There were a few places in Collingwood where I noted in the margins that he was describing Information Theory or an Information Field of some sort as the basis of reality; this seems to be also the Cs cosmological perspective.

ark said:
In fact this goes beyond EEQT. It is still "on the drawing board". It is a part of my program outlined in "Towards the theory of matter, geometry and information" In particular, here is the relevant paragraph:

That what is needed is a coupling between energy and information. [f4]

But is it not so that any exchange of information can be, after all, described in terms of exchange of energy ?

In a sense " yes", but in another sense, which is here more important, " no".

Again let us take the general theory of relativity as an analogy and example. There we have, from the very beginning, a division between matter and geometry. The gravitational field represents geometry. Other fields, taken together, represent matter.[f5] Can one reduce matter to geometry, or geometry to matter ?

Until now all attempts at such a " forced unification" have been, if one does not count side effects, unfruitful. analoguously, the dualism of energy and matter may have a primitive character.

Continuing the analogy : in the same way as a gravitational field curves space-time [f6], the information field may curve the state space. May change the geometry of the space of quantum states. May enable the flow of information and of energy through new channels. Now quantum matter gets a worthy partner, just as the gravitational field was a worthy partner to classical matter. The same way as gravitational field is local[f7] in space-time, the information field is local in Hilbert space where " near" means " similar". The geometry of the information field must be, as we have said, a nonlinear geometry. Only in this way can we explain the stability of structures, such as the structure of life. With the phenomenon of life we can in this way, associate a topological invariant (a kind of a vortex) in the nonlinear field of information. Physical and chemical life processes would be then controlled by a quantum feedback between information and matter. And, when we speak about geometry, it must be noted that it must be more than a classical geometry such as is sufficient for the Einstein theory of gravitation. What is needed here is a kind of quantum geometry. Such a geometry is today only in statu nascendi. [5,20]
My actual involvment into "Clifford algebras" goes into this direction. I remeber C's [Session 00-02-05]:

Geometry gets you there, algebra sets you "free."
Why was "free" put in quotes? Beacause it has to do with "free will"? Or because there are "free algebras" and they are important? Clifford algebras are constructed as particular cases of "free algebras"

Jung had Pauli and Laura has Ark. Gurdjieff had Ouspensky. I think Gurdjieff not only didn't have someone on the step behind him but kind of lacked someone on the step with him who saw math in more mind compatible ways.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Merci à tous pour vos commentaires passionnants...Je pense comprendre mais je ne suis pas sûre d'être assez intelligente pour tout comprendre...
Ma compréhension n'est pas intellectuelle mais plutôt ressentie...
Je ne sais pas si je m'exprime clairement, me comprenez vous ?...
J'ai hâte de recevoir mes 2 livres de Collingwood et j'espère pouvoir les assimiler...
Encore un grand merci pour vos commentaires qui me servent d'apéritif ou entrée avant de passer au plat principal...

Thank you all for your fascinating comments ... I think I understand but I'm not sure I'm smart enough to understand everything ...
My understanding is not intellectual but rather felt ...
I do not know if I express myself clearly, do you understand me? ...
I can not wait to receive my 2 Collingwood books and I hope to be able to assimilate them ...
Another big thank you for your comments that serve me as an appetizer or entry before moving to the main course ...
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Aragorn said:
I'm probably getting ahead of myself, but one thing I started thinking while reading the book is: what about psychopatology? I mean, if you're supposed to re-enact and re-think in your mind the history/actions/thoughts of individuals, wouldn't it be important to have an understanding of pathological behavior, psychopaths etc.? Particularly, since we can suspect that many of the past world leaders have been pathological in a way or another. So far I haven't seen Collingwood mention anything about this.

Well, this assumes that there is a definite line between "us normals" and "those pathologicals". That may be true in some sense when it comes to psychopaths, but even there, we are all contaminated by "psychopathic thinking", we ourselves are all "pathological" in various ways. But even if we hopefully are moving away from this state, or rather because of this, we can still recognize these pathologies in ourselves, our thinking, our feelings. And we can still remember our own past and our pathological existence, we can still feel the pain we caused, and how various ideologies and "pathological material" drove us and made us act the way we did.

That enables us to better grasp past events - because we CAN put ourselves in the shoes even of the worst historical figures, understand where they were coming from, how the specific thoughts of their time interacted with their unconscious and conscious ulterior motives. But for this to happen, we need to come to terms first with the psychopath that lives in us. If we just put ourselves above "pathologicals", as in "we are totally different, we would never do such heartless things", we can neither understand the pathological element in history nor ourselves - OSIT.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

luc said:
Aragorn said:
I'm probably getting ahead of myself, but one thing I started thinking while reading the book is: what about psychopatology? I mean, if you're supposed to re-enact and re-think in your mind the history/actions/thoughts of individuals, wouldn't it be important to have an understanding of pathological behavior, psychopaths etc.? Particularly, since we can suspect that many of the past world leaders have been pathological in a way or another. So far I haven't seen Collingwood mention anything about this.

Well, this assumes that there is a definite line between "us normals" and "those pathologicals". That may be true in some sense when it comes to psychopaths, but even there, we are all contaminated by "psychopathic thinking", we ourselves are all "pathological" in various ways. But even if we hopefully are moving away from this state, or rather because of this, we can still recognize these pathologies in ourselves, our thinking, our feelings. And we can still remember our own past and our pathological existence, we can still feel the pain we caused, and how various ideologies and "pathological material" drove us and made us act the way we did.

That enables us to better grasp past events - because we CAN put ourselves in the shoes even of the worst historical figures, understand where they were coming from, how the specific thoughts of their time interacted with their unconscious and conscious ulterior motives. But for this to happen, we need to come to terms first with the psychopath that lives in us. If we just put ourselves above "pathologicals", as in "we are totally different, we would never do such heartless things", we can neither understand the pathological element in history nor ourselves - OSIT.

On this topic, I tend to agree with Aragorn here. Note what I have put in bold. I think that this is one of the big failings of historians: that they do not understand psychopathology, especially the successful kind of psychopath. You will meet that variety in Raine's book on psychopaths. What I found there was a bit more than I was expecting even after all these years of studying psychopathology. I've had to re-think a few things.

The other big failing of historians (and archaeologists and related professionals) is their failure to have a handle on cosmic changes and how those things can impact earth (literally and figuratively). The figurative part would be mostly the effect on human beings and their being driven nuts by the realization (whether conscious or unconscious) that their planet is not as securely suspended in space as they might like to think it is.

Neither Gurdjieff nor Collingwood had a handle on psychopathy as it actually is. This left gaps in their understanding and those gaps were more severe in G's work than Collingwood's, I think. G used the term, but what he meant by it was far away from what a psychopath really is and does.

However, even Raine's understanding is limited. Brain dysfunction or structural abnormalities are not ontological descriptions of what we can term "evil."
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

luc said:
Aragorn said:
I'm probably getting ahead of myself, but one thing I started thinking while reading the book is: what about psychopatology? I mean, if you're supposed to re-enact and re-think in your mind the history/actions/thoughts of individuals, wouldn't it be important to have an understanding of pathological behavior, psychopaths etc.? Particularly, since we can suspect that many of the past world leaders have been pathological in a way or another. So far I haven't seen Collingwood mention anything about this.

Well, this assumes that there is a definite line between "us normals" and "those pathologicals". That may be true in some sense when it comes to psychopaths, but even there, we are all contaminated by "psychopathic thinking", we ourselves are all "pathological" in various ways. But even if we hopefully are moving away from this state, or rather because of this, we can still recognize these pathologies in ourselves, our thinking, our feelings. And we can still remember our own past and our pathological existence, we can still feel the pain we caused, and how various ideologies and "pathological material" drove us and made us act the way we did.

That enables us to better grasp past events - because we CAN put ourselves in the shoes even of the worst historical figures, understand where they were coming from, how the specific thoughts of their time interacted with their unconscious and conscious ulterior motives. But for this to happen, we need to come to terms first with the psychopath that lives in us. If we just put ourselves above "pathologicals", as in "we are totally different, we would never do such heartless things", we can neither understand the pathological element in history nor ourselves - OSIT.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't subscribe to the notion of "the psychopath that lives in us". Sure, all of us have a 'shadow side', but I wouldn't go so far as to say that all of us are capable/willing to carry out those heartless things they do. Psychopaths are a completely different species, and their 'wiring' is different. What I'm proposing, and perhaps that's what you're getting at too, is knowledge and awareness of psychopathology/ponerology, of how pathological individuals think and operate – armed with that, I think there is a chance of trying to re-think the thoughts of these individuals. However, knowing how illogical e.g. psychopaths are, this could turn out to be a difficult task.

Again, this might be just the thing that you're saying? I think that all this is clear for members on this forum, but what I'm wondering is how much awareness various historians, like Collingwood, have of these things.
 
Re: Collingwood's Idea of History, Speculum Mentis & Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

I´ve read the first four chapters of IoH so far, and although I found it a little bit tough to follow every detail C. so cleverly develops, I suddenly came to realize the enormous implication of the title of his book after following his train of thoughts for a while.

Over the years I´ve become more and more intimately acquainted with the idea that there are no limits to what might be achieved along the process of reintegrating ourselves with the universe as a whole, or more simply said, I'm the captain of my destiny, be it consciously or not, with my consent or without. But I was shocked as I came to grasp how history as we know it today is the product of numerous writers mindset impacting and rearranging one after the other the worldview of each society of their own epoch. But much more importantly, that their worldviews is actually the result of all the content of my mind, and by definition, its own limits. And the more I reflect about such implications, the more I´m relieved because I´m seeing why taking new directions and decisions in life will never be easy, and understanding now how all the weight of our past collective history colours our reality.

Now I´m eagerly going to dive in the much promising last chapter five, which Laura and others seems so fond of from their description of its revealing effects on understanding the place we occupy in the universe. :)
 

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