Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis

Re: Speculum Mentis

I have an analogy that popped up in my mind when I read that section the other day.

We have a medical system full of experts who act like you can fix a specific issue in a specific area without understanding the whole body situation.

Studying things in parts seems to be a big thing in other scientific fields too, experts get more recognition than the science that tries to look at the whole picture. What a mess we live in!
 
Re: Speculum Mentis

Divide By Zero said:
I have an analogy that popped up in my mind when I read that section the other day.

We have a medical system full of experts who act like you can fix a specific issue in a specific area without understanding the whole body situation.

Reminds me of Lobaczewski's advise, Ignota nulla curatio morbi (do not attempt to cure what you do not understand).
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

For a while, I have been toying with the idea of humanity as a superorganism and an individual as a cell inside. After finishing Collingwood's The Idea of History, the idea cleared up and grew on me. I wrote some notes on it a few days ago so I thought I'd share it here, FWIW.

The ancient maxim "As above, so below" posits that there are strong similarities between the world outside of man and the world inside him. Studying one can help the understanding of the other, and vice versa. The immediate outer world that a man lives in is society, or humanity. So it is humanity, or the human super organism, that one should focus attention on the most, and to compare it with the world inside.

An ordinary individual living his life under the General Law is like a physical cell in the human super organism. He is unaware, acting mechanically as programmed by instincts and society. But by doing so, he serves the human super organism just as a cell serves an organism.

An individual entering the Work is still like a physical cell in the human super organism and serves it as such. However, he also contributes to humanity's mind. By historical thinking (in Collingwood's sense), he gains not only self knowledge, but also knowledge of humanity as a whole.

Humanity's mind is too vast for an individual to be fully aware of, but it is within the gasp of a network of such conscious individuals, just like the human mind requires and consists of a network of neurons. Such knowledge also accumulates over a time scale beyond the life of an individual, just like knowledge of an individual accumulates over a time scale beyond the life of an individual neuron.

There are fascinating parallels between the esoteric evolution of an invidual and that of humanity too.

An individual begins to be aware by collecting mental photographs of moments when he is acting mechanically, often to be regretted later. Humanity begins to be aware by collecting historical knowledge of mistakes and atrocities, events that are only remembered with a sense of horror.

Just as an individual frequently engages in dissociation to dull the feeling of unease brought about by self awareness, the masses engages in "bread and circuses" activities en masse to block the feeling of unease brought about by knowledge of atrocities for which they are partly responsible.

There are powerful mechanisms to preserve the status quo in an individual's psyche. Such mechanisms are often only overcome when the individual has suffered enough and gained enough self knowledge. Likewise, there are powerful mechanisms to preserve the status quo in humanity. Such mechanisms are likely only overcome when humanity has suffered enough and gained enough knowledge about itself.

Changes in an individual come from the higher part of his psyche or his conscience, the part that constantly holds up a mirror before himself and reminds him of what he has done and what he is. Similarly, changes in humanity, if they are to happen, can only come from a group of conscious individuals that act as humanity's conscience, broadcasts a signal of Truth and reminds humanity of what it has done and what it is.

Finally, if an individual repeatedly fails to learn his lessons, a metaphorical "billboard" will eventually fall on his head. If humanity repeatedly fails to learn its lessons, a cosmic "billboard" will fall on its head in the form of comets and earth changes.

There are probably a lot missing from the bird eye picture above, but it does clarify many things for me. So I'm using it as a guiding map for now.
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Sounds about right to me. The "as above, so below" principle is very useful at many scales. Gurdjieff made the mistake of thinking that it meant that the "above" was as physical as the "below". I think that, at the purest level, the "above" is sort of like the Platonic "idea realm", though his version of it was too static to be ultimately useful. I think we can learn a lot about the "above" by careful observing of the "below."

Added:

Bobo08 said:
Changes in an individual come from the higher part of his psyche or his conscience, the part that constantly holds up a mirror before himself and reminds him of what he has done and what he is. Similarly, changes in humanity, if they are to happen, can only come from a group of conscious individuals that act as humanity's conscience, broadcasts a signal of Truth and reminds humanity of what it has done and what it is.

I'm glad you wrote this because I do become weary lately with the madness on the planet. Like everyone else, some days, I don't see what the point is, why we should continue to act as a "lighthouse" so to say. But it is true, it is an act of holding up a mirror to our larger human body and if some part of us does not do this, there is no possibility for changes in humanity.
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Anthony said:
A few thoughts after reading some parts of Speculum Mentis.

Man is interested in knowledge in general as a guide to action, to know what to do. He can experience life in a couple of ways or forms: art, religion, science, philosophy etc. All of these forms claim to be a proper way of arriving at the ultimate truth about existence. I guess we can say that they correspond to the functioning of our centers, thinking, feeling, moving. The proper way for human progress is not an exclusive focus on either one of these forms, but developing them as much as possible in our life, understanding that they are interrelated and follow one from another.

If we have a purely materialistic ('scientific') outlook on the world, our actions and relationships to reality will be limited by that form of experience. It seems that Collingwood is providing a map so that we don't get stuck in either one of these forms to the exclusion of others, a sort of a bird's eye view of the terrain.

Each level of thought evolves out of the other in the direction from implicit to explicit. Art to Religion to Science to History. At each level, thought evolves transcending the error or lack of awareness of it's true nature as thought, to the next level. An error occurs when an aspect of thought is attempted to be left out of the methodology. Like when empirical science attempted to leave out the sensual and aesthetic elements resulting in abstraction.

I think what Collingwood is getting at is that all progress must proceed out of what came before. I like what he said at the end of 'The Idea of History' that to build a better civilization, you must keep the best elements of the old- to completely discard everything will only result in another error of one sort or the other.

Just some thoughts too
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Bobo08, I think these are very good points and you put them very well!

Bobo08 said:
An individual entering the Work is still like a physical cell in the human super organism and serves it as such. However, he also contributes to humanity's mind. By historical thinking (in Collingwood's sense), he gains not only self knowledge, but also knowledge of humanity as a whole.

In addition to that, while reading Collingwood I thought about the idea that present, past and future are very much related - they are unified in the human "historical mind", that is, we only really know and act in the present, but this acting and knowing is shaped by the past, and it shapes the future. By understanding history (the "grand mind") and drawing the right conclusions, we change the past in a sense - because we reinterpret its meaning. The past thus changes its "shaping force", which really is all it is. And of course, this change in the "shaping force" reaches to the future as well. Again, it's like in our individual lives - the way we give meaning to our past, trauma and all, changes its nature and thus our present experience and decisions and as such, our future.

So again, it comes down to digging deep and sharing what we found and how we feel about it. This contributes to the "human historical mind" in a certain, positive way, and may change the future of the whole "human body". We don't really understand the world of collective thought and archetypical forces very well, but it seems it is fundamentally different from our physical, material world. So funny non-linear things can happen, in other words, there's hope! OSIT
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Bobo08 said:
For a while, I have been toying with the idea of humanity as a superorganism and an individual as a cell inside. [...]

An ordinary individual living his life under the General Law is like a physical cell in the human super organism. He is unaware, acting mechanically as programmed by instincts and society. But by doing so, he serves the human super organism just as a cell serves an organism. [...]

I also think that it's good analogy. Using it we could say that psychopaths in power are like a virus or rather malevolent brain tumour which if not properly recognized and cured can bring about the death of the whole organism of humanity.

luc said:
Bobo08, I think these are very good points and you put them very well!

Bobo08 said:
An individual entering the Work is still like a physical cell in the human super organism and serves it as such. However, he also contributes to humanity's mind. By historical thinking (in Collingwood's sense), he gains not only self knowledge, but also knowledge of humanity as a whole.

In addition to that, while reading Collingwood I thought about the idea that present, past and future are very much related - they are unified in the human "historical mind", that is, we only really know and act in the present, but this acting and knowing is shaped by the past, and it shapes the future. [...]

I agree. And if we assume that there is no linear time and past, present and future are happening simultaneously (which we can't perceive fully), so maybe we can call this "historical mind" timeless morphic collective consciousness field (information field) in which all thoughts of all the people from the past and the present (and future?) exist simultaneously which makes it relatively "easy" e.g. for a historian to tap into the mind of people who lived in the past and tune in with their thoughts in order to reenact them AND develop them further.
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Altair said:
luc said:
In addition to that, while reading Collingwood I thought about the idea that present, past and future are very much related - they are unified in the human "historical mind", that is, we only really know and act in the present, but this acting and knowing is shaped by the past, and it shapes the future. [...]

I agree. And if we assume that there is no linear time and past, present and future are happening simultaneously (which we can't perceive fully), so maybe we can call this "historical mind" timeless morphic collective consciousness field (information field) in which all thoughts of all the people from the past and the present (and future?) exist simultaneously which makes it relatively "easy" e.g. for a historian to tap into the mind of people who lived in the past and tune in with their thoughts in order to reenact them AND develop them further.

Yes, and what is so fascinating to me is the congruence of Collingwood's ideas to those things the Cs have said about time, knowledge, history, origins, etc. There were a few places in Collingwood where I noted in the margins that he was describing Information Theory or an Information Field of some sort as the basis of reality; this seems to be also the Cs cosmological perspective.

The Cs have pointed out that our greatest "protection" is continuous knowledge input and that this is essentially how we "grow" to the point of being able to transition to higher densities. In an interesting way, Collingwood also develops this though he certain has no idea of densities etc. He sure does describe "dimensions" - even unbeknownst to himself - especially when talking about the artistic consciousness and that each "work of art/imagination" is like a world unto itself.

Another thing that struck me was the grand overview of the "development of mind/consciousness" of humanity throughout time, each new paradigm having its seeds in the previous one.

All of this taken together makes G's story about "kundabuffer" being implanted and then later removed and all that hypnosis business rather silly. Indeed, people are "programmed" so to say, and operate pretty much automatically, but that is simply the influence of the mechanical nature of the material realm which is gravitational and "pulls" in that direction. Meanwhile, there is an infusion of consciousness/creativity in the Living System that seeks to grow and acquire knowledge and become free of the restrictions of physicality. But it is a GROWTH process.

Sure, the consciousness part of humanity may have been "higher" before the fall, but that was a state that was in no way material as G would have it, so again, out with the silly story about archangels being misguided and installing kundabuffer.
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Merci Laura pour le lien de cette page des plus intéressantes...

Thank you Laura for the link of this most interesting page ...
 
Re: R. G. Collingwood: The Idea of History

Un grand merci à Laura pour nous avoir donné ce lien en attendant la réception de ma commande des deux livres de RG Collingwood...

A big thank you to Laura for giving us this link while waiting for the receipt of my order for RG Collingwood's two books ...
 
Re: Speculum Mentis

Merci à Laura d'avoir partagé aussi ce lien car pour les Français n'entendant pas l'Anglais, avec la traduction Google est beaucoup plus accessible...

Thanks to Laura for sharing this link too because for the French not hearing English, with the Google translation is much more accessible ...
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology


In the penultimate chapter of Raine's "Anatomy of Violence", there is a rather distressing discussion of Free Will. As this research shows, it seems that rather few people actually have any to speak of. Even though Raine is discussing this topic from the perspective of violence and crime, every single thing he notes about the brain is applicable in some dimensional way to normal, non-violent, non-criminal individuals; it's just a matter of degree and type. He writes:

We have been witnessing so far a myriad of biological, genetic, and brain factors that conspire together to create violence and crime. A number occur even before a child is born. A child does not ask to be born with birth complications or a shrunken amygdala, or to have the gene for low levels of MAOA. So if these factors predispose some innocent babies to a life of crime, can we really hold them responsible for what they eventually do - no matter how heinous the crime? Do they have free will in the strict sense of the word? That's the key question we must address.

At one extreme, many theologians, philosophers, social scientists - and likely yourself - would argue that barring exceptional circumstances suc as sever mental illness, each and every one of us has full control over our actions. Theologians argue that we have a choice as to whether to let God into our soul, that we choose whether to commit sin or not, and consequently our criminal actions - our sins - are a product of a will that is under our full control.

At the other extreme, some scientists eschew the idea of a disembodied soul that has its own free will and take a more reductionist approach. Francis Crick, who won the Nobel Prize for the discovery of the structure of DNA, for example, believed that free will is nothing more than a large assembly of neurons located in the anterior cingulate cortex, and that under a certain set of assumptions it would be possible to build a machine that would believe it has fee will. Such a view harks back to our discussion of evolutionary perspectives. Perhaps we are indeed merely gene machines that con ourselves into believing we have choices in life.

I might argue for a middle ground between these two extremes. Free will likely lies on a continuum, with some people having almost complete choice in their actions, while others have relatively less. ... Most of us lie between these extremes. Thik of the free-will concept like IQ, extraversion or temperature, which are dimensional in nature. There are degrees of free will, and we all differ on that dimension of agency.

What determines the extent of free will? Early biological and genetic mechanisms alongside social and environmental factors play substantial roles. For some, free will is significantly constrained early in life by forces far beyond their control. ...

{He then gives case history evidence that completely demolishes the free will perspective and then comes back to talk about why a person is even reading his book and the possible influences that induced them to buy and read it. Then he says:}

You want so desperately to believe that you determin ethings in your life, yet that belief has no true substance. It floats like a ghost in a a mind machine forged by ancient evolutionary forces. You were as helpless in deciding to buy this book as I was in writing it. ...

Complete free will is sadly an illusion - a mirage. I wish it were not, because I too find this perspective unsettling. But there we have it. ...

Responsibility and self-reflection are not disembodied, ethereal processes but are instead rooted firmly in the brain. Functional imaging research has shown that the medial prefrontal cortex is centrally involved in the ability to engage in self-reflection.

The studies that show that the ability to "observe the self" and gain insight are quite compelling and could be totally depressing. Yet, we must consider what Collingwood wrote about 2nd order thinking in concert with what the Cs said about genetics and soul:

7Oct95 said:
Q: (L) But isn't the nature of a person determined by their
soul and not the physical body?

A: Partially, remember, aural profile and karmic reference
merges with physical structure.

Q: (L) So you are saying that particular genetic conditions
are a physical reflection of a spiritual orientation?
That the soul must match itself to the genetics, even if
only in potential?

A: Yes, precisely.

Q: (L) So a person's potential for spiritual advancement or
unfoldment is, to a great extent, dependent upon their
genes?

A: Natural process marries with systematic construct when
present.

Q: (L) Well, if that is the case, and the aliens are
abducting people and altering their genes, can they not
alter the genes so that higher level souls simply cannot
come in?

A: Not incarnative process, natural biological processes.
Incarnative involves strictly ethereal at 5th density and
lower, and thus is enveloped in triple cycle "veil" of
transfer which is impregnable ay any means. However, any
and all 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th processes can be
manipulated at will and to any degree if technology is
sufficient.

So, according to the Cs, we can accept both Raine and Collingwood. And, of course, the Organic Portal concept must come into play here.

An interesting set of points in Raine's book deal with the factors that can ameliorate brain issues, either before the occur or after. Those factors include diet/nutrition, brain training along the biofeedback line that is rather like "thinking with a hammer", and meditation. Of course he also talks about the social/family factors of support and feedback from a loving environment. These all seem to be the avenues we explore and discuss as encouraged by Cs on many occasions. In a way, they are reflective of some concepts of The Work, though I saw very little that would support G's specific take on it and how it should be implemented. It seems that we have a much better approach though it has morphed and evolved through time and we are always looking to improve it. But, some of the most basic ideas we have had or been inspired to have by Cs, G, Castaneda, Mouravieff, etc, appear to be right on the correct track according to Raine's studies.

But still, it seems clear that some brain damage simply makes it impossible for the "seating of the soul" and for the individual to do any work on the self whatsoever in the terms we understand it. They may certainly have their lives improved by adopting a good diet, by getting feedback on their behavior, by being supported by a loving group to be the best they can be, but they will probably never go beyond being what G would call a "good obyvatel". I would think that this group would include Organic Portals as well.

So, all in all, this set of texts has produced most illuminating convergences of data and perspective.
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Raine
Complete free will is sadly an illusion - a mirage. I wish it were not, because I too find this perspective unsettling. But there we have it. ...
Responsibility and self-reflection are not disembodied, ethereal processes but are instead rooted firmly in the brain. Functional imaging research has shown that the medial prefrontal cortex is centrally involved in the ability to engage in self-reflection.

Given this, it would seem that those who have the ability to choose, to some degree on the continuum, would able to strengthen their ability through meditation/prayer type activities, or are we fooling ourselves with wishful thinking regarding our ability to change in this respect too?
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Seems a bit depressing, but it shouldn’t stop us/me from trying the best to improve oneself. There’s a lot of hard work involved when I have an aged parent to look after. Every time I get into something interesting I have to stop and it’s hard to pick up my train of thought - very frustrating.

Have ordered Collingwood and Raines books, but have to wait till end of November to receive them.
 
Re: Gurdjieff's Primitive Cosmology

Laura said:
All of this taken together makes G's story about "kundabuffer" being implanted and then later removed and all that hypnosis business rather silly. Indeed, people are "programmed" so to say, and operate pretty much automatically, but that is simply the influence of the mechanical nature of the material realm which is gravitational and "pulls" in that direction. Meanwhile, there is an infusion of consciousness/creativity in the Living System that seeks to grow and acquire knowledge and become free of the restrictions of physicality. But it is a GROWTH process.

Sure, the consciousness part of humanity may have been "higher" before the fall, but that was a state that was in no way material as G would have it, so again, out with the silly story about archangels being misguided and installing kundabuffer.

I was thinking that the stage of being completely mechanical might be a necessary prerequisite to a higher state of being, i.e. you need to be glued for a certain period of time in 3D before you've had enough and start searching for a different way of being (that seems to be part of what Collingwood wrote in Speculum Mentis).
 
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