Covert Depression

Thanks Obyvatel for bringing this to our attention I have learnt so much from this thread.

I wonder if this depression is like Dysthymia, which is a long term chronic low mood, not as severe as major depression and harder to diagnose as many sufferers are not aware that they have it.

Interesting that Dysthymia means 'bad state of mind' or 'ill humour' in the Greek language.

I can think of a few people who I know that may fall into this catergory.
 
I think early traumatic experiences prevent us from learning of and being able to take certain attitudes towards life events which normally result in success. I think this leads to depression. I think these attitudes are a natural result of curiosity in the absence of trauma.

Occasionally I try to stand in another person's shoes who I see doesn't have similar dysfunctionalities. I think of what the childhood experience would have been for a person who happily jumps into something that I would ordinarily be frozen in the face of. Sometimes in my imagination I even see this child being validated in a situation in which I would have been traumatized by my family/friends, and I realize the absurdity of what happened to me. And then I can imagine how I would have developed had I been validated. I realize that, feeling safe and protected in my environment I would have developed natural curiosity about the things that I have always feared due to trauma. I see myself learning about social nuances, learning how to comfort others, how to ask for comfort.

Seeing your childhood traumas shows you that there is a new, safe emotional reality that you can participate in, that you can begin to learn to function in a harmonious way with others. However I think in our times this reality is for most of us, only in embryo. I think we must work together to create it, and to find co-linear groups that can give birth to this reality.

I hope this isn't too off-topic or off-balance. This is something I've been experiencing and thinking about a lot recently, and thought it might add to the discussion.
 
French Marigold said:
Thanks Obyvatel for bringing this to our attention I have learnt so much from this thread.

You are welcome. Thanks for participating.

French Marigold] I wonder if this depression is like Dysthymia said:
I think early traumatic experiences prevent us from learning of and being able to take certain attitudes towards life events which normally result in success. I think this leads to depression. I think these attitudes are a natural result of curiosity in the absence of trauma.

Occasionally I try to stand in another person's shoes who I see doesn't have similar dysfunctionalities. I think of what the childhood experience would have been for a person who happily jumps into something that I would ordinarily be frozen in the face of. Sometimes in my imagination I even see this child being validated in a situation in which I would have been traumatized by my family/friends, and I realize the absurdity of what happened to me. And then I can imagine how I would have developed had I been validated. I realize that, feeling safe and protected in my environment I would have developed natural curiosity about the things that I have always feared due to trauma. I see myself learning about social nuances, learning how to comfort others, how to ask for comfort.

Seeing your childhood traumas shows you that there is a new, safe emotional reality that you can participate in, that you can begin to learn to function in a harmonious way with others. However I think in our times this reality is for most of us, only in embryo. I think we must work together to create it, and to find co-linear groups that can give birth to this reality.

I hope this isn't too off-topic or off-balance. This is something I've been experiencing and thinking about a lot recently, and thought it might add to the discussion.

Your description of experiences is valuable monotonic and quite relevant to the topic under discussion. I will post about one case study described in Terrence Real's book next which expands on the same general theme.
 
[quote author=I Don't Want To Talk About It]
Billy Jodein was a disheveled, wisecracking, overweight college freshman referred to me by his university health service in a last-ditch attempt to keep him in school. An acute episode of overt depression had taken its toll on Billy, leaving him barely enough energy to get out of bed in the morning, and little left over for study, friends, or sustained concentration. Although Billy’s brash style might at first hide his condition, depression had gripped this young man, and it was about to toss him out of school and back home to his parents. For close to a month , Billy “just didn’t have it” to get himself to many of his classes , let alone to the library. The few friends he had made were steadfast enough, although he was convinced he was boring to be around . When alone, he ached to be with other people. When with other people, he felt alienated and burdened— out of step— and he spent much of his time wishing they would just go away.

If Billy offered poor fellowship to others, he was far worse company to himself. When I ask him what he does all day, sitting for hours alone in his little dorm room, Billy answers with the warped bravado of his self-described “grunge sensibility.”
“Mostly,” he replies, smiling pleasantly, “I’d say I flay myself.”

“You flay yourself?” I ask, willing to take on the role of straight man.

“Psychological self-immolation.” Billy nods, a parody of sincerity. “Self-immolation is my favorite hobby.”

“How is it? “I ask.

“Oh, it’s loads of fun,” he answers.

“I meant, how does it go?” I try again.

Billy spreads his hands. “That’s just it,” he tells me. “It doesn’t go. It doesn’t go anywhere. It just sits there, right on top of me. Right here on my chest. And it goddamn refuses to move.”

Billy has managed to evade my question, and I suspect he is not yet ready to expose to me the dialogue that rages inside his head. But I have seen enough depressed men in my practice to guess what “flaying” himself signifies.

At Billy’s age, I myself was no stranger to such self-immolation. At sixteen, seventeen, I did not manage to sit still long enough to allow the voices inside my head to have their way with me. I ran from them. But even without giving in, I knew their essential message well enough : There was something wrong with me, something unlike other people—something frightening and bleak. I felt a perverse sense of blackness, sadness, a grim coldness at the center of things. I can recall this state of dead disconnection since early childhood.
...............
I think I understood what Billy Jodein meant when he told me that he flayed himself.
[/quote]

The author Real suffered physical abuse at the hand of his father in childhood and had taken to drugs at a young age. Most of his buddies of the time were either dead or revolving door patients in mental institutions. He outlines his own struggle with accounts of those of his patients in the book.

[quote author=I Don't Want To Talk About It]
There are many ways to describe the experience of depression , many aspects of the disorder one might choose to center on. My focus in treating depressed men has been primarily relational .
What kind of relationship does a depressed man have with others’? I ask, followed by:
What kind of relationship does he have with himself?

The answer to both of these questions is often: a bad one. Writers like Knauth or William Styron vividly describe the “ pure psychical anguish ” that patients like Billy endure. In the last twenty years, all manner of depressed men have passed through my doorway— young, old, successful, incompetent, kind, and angry. Each one of them has had one thing in common: his relationship to himself was a cruel one.

I tell Billy Jodein that I think of depression as an auto-aggressive disease, a disorder in which the self turns against the self. If we were able to take a psychic stethoscope and listen in to the unremitting conversation looping inside Billy’s mind, we would hear harsh, perfectionist judgment matched with bitterness, mistrust, and hopelessness. Billy comes by such harshness “honestly,” as they say. Like most of the depressed men I have encountered, Billy had a history
of sustained childhood injury. The bridge that links injury in childhood and depression in manhood is violence.

Psychological violence lies at the core of the traditional socialization of boys in our culture. For many boys, that social wound is further aggravated by their unique family experiences. If “boy culture” exposes most young males to some degree of psychological injury, those growing up in especially difficult circumstances, particularly those also possessing genetic vulnerabilities, are most at risk for depression later in life. The violence they are exposed to as children takes up residence inside their minds as adults. Overtly depressed men like Billy are frozen, endlessly rehearsing repetitions of pain and despair. If overtly depressed men are paralyzed, men who are covertly depressed, as I was, cannot stand still. They run, desperately trying to outdistance shame by medicating their pain, pumping up their tenuous self-esteem, or, if all else fails , inflicting their torture on others. Overt depression is violence endured. Covert depression is violence deflected. In either case, understanding depression in men means coming to grips with men’s violence. How has the door of the psyche been opened to such a dark visitation? By what mechanisms does violence in the boy’s environment become internalized as a stable force inside his own mind? Although he is unaware of his knowledge, Billy Jodein knows how.

“Every night before he came home, I would watch my mother scurry around the house like a fat little hamster,” Billy tells me during one session, crossing the legs of his artfully ripped blue jeans. With his acne-ridden face, spiky hair, and pudgy disorder, Bill thrusts himself out into the world, a pugnacious whirl of chaos, daring someone to try cleaning him up. This is our fourth session, and Billy has already threatened to stop coming. His demeanor makes it clear that he is in therapy to placate his school, his worried parents, and me, in that order.

“What do you mean, ‘hamster?’” I ask.

Billy pushes up the glasses that threaten to slide down his nose —an abrupt, jabbing motion— and curls his lip in a sneer. “You know, like totally frenetic. Trying to get everything all straightened out before Dad got home. Every dish, every ashtray. I could see the fear in her eyes. I mean subtle, but definitely frantic, in her own controlled little way.”

“Go on.” I lean forward.

Bill takes a big swig of diet Coke and rests the wet can on a bare knee sticking up through his jeans. “I had this realization one day,” he tells me. “This‘ah, hah !’ experience, you know? And I told her. She was all running around and, like, I said, ‘Hey, you know, Mom. I hope you understand that everything you’re doing is totally useless.’”

“And?” I ask.

He shakes his head. “She hardly heard me,” he says. “But I told her anyway. I said,”‘ You do know that no matter what you do, he’s still going to go off on you. If he feels like it. I mean, no matter what. No matter how nice the dinner is or whatever.’”

“Go off?” I ask.

“You know , flip out.” Billy combs through thick, unruly hair with his chubby fingers.

“And how did she take it?” I ask.

“Could have saved my breath.” He pulls on the Coke. “Believe me.”

“Why?” I ask.

“Well, she heard me, I guess. I mean physically. Just sort of blinked at me and kept going .” He grins to himself. “Just like one of those little Duracell guys, you know. Just kept on tickin’.”

Even though it is a pose, even though I know he is young, I find Billy’s snide mannerisms annoying.

“Is this funny?” I challenge him.

“Excuse me?” he bridles.

I take a breath, try to relax. “I was just wondering what you might be feeling if you weren’t joking” I say, halfheartedly, suddenly tired.

Billy squints up at me for a moment, as if considering for the first time that I am in the room with him. He looks at my face longer, and more seriously, than I have been accustomed to. “Long day?” he asks, not mockingly. I look back at him.

“Yes,” I say. “To be honest. Why?”

He shrugs. “You looked kinda tired.”

“Thanks, Billy,” I tell him. “I appreciate that.” And, after a pause, “Do you want to answer?”

“Your question?” He smiles. I nod, waiting for some big revelation, but he only shrugs. “Kinda useless, I guess. That’s how I’d feel if I didn’t make a joke out of it,” he tells me.

I let it go. “And when your dad did get home?” I ask him.

“Yeah, so”— he looks down at his soda can—“ why would it be different from every other night he came home?” he asks, with another reckless jab at his glasses. I worry he’ll miss and poke his eye.

“Meaning, they argued?” I ask him.

“That’s one way to put it,” he answers.

“You have another—” I begin, but he cuts me off.

“No, you’re right. They fight. ” He seems nervous.

“Describe it,” I ask him.

“Like what? What would they say? The words?”

I nod.

“Aw, you know, just, ‘F*** you! I won’t live like this anymore, ‘ and then, ‘You’re such an ass***! I can’t believe you treat me like this!’” He shakes his head. “ Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera,” he intones. “Believe me.”

“And this would go on every night?” I ask.

“Most nights,” he tells me.

“Where would you be?”

“Are you kidding?” he sits up. “Hey, I’m at a friend’s. Really , ‘Have a nice day!’” Under my gaze, Billy’s ready smile dissipates. He sits back, deflated. “Or, maybe, up in my room,” he says, sounding like a kid, “listening to music.”

“Billy,” I ask. “Are you feeling anything as you say this?”

“Now?” he asks, “Naw.” Although I can see he is sad.

“And how would you feel back then?” I pursue.

“About their fighting?” He stalls.

I nod. “About anything. All of it.”

“Not too much,” he says, appearing more and more a little boy, kicking his feet in the chair. “Sorry for them, mostly, I guess . They were just so pathetic.”

“So, you’re aware of feeling sadness for them,” I tell him.

“Well, just that they’re both such jerks,” he replies.

“Uh-huh. And what about you, Bill?” I lean toward him. “You were the kid listening to all of this night after night. The kid upstairs in his bedroom.”

“What about it?” he says, sullen , pugnacious.

“You felt sad for them, but what about your feelings for yourself?” I ask.

“Yeah, I’m pretty used to it,” he says, a tough guy.

“Oh, you are.” I lean back.

“Hey,” he says, “this has been going on a long time.”

“Yeah,” I say. “How long? How old were you when all this first started?” I ask him. “Give me the youngest age you can remember them bickering.”

“It’s been like this the whole time,” he protests.

“Nine, ten, seven, eight?”

“Yeah, all of it,” he says.

“And you think that little nine-year-old might not have had some feelings ?” I ask him. “ That seven-year-old boy?”

“It was a long time ago.”

“You can’t remember?” I press.

“No,” said quickly, belligerently, then, “Why should I?”

“I’m just wondering what happened to them, that’s all.”

“My feelings?” he asks.

“Right,” I say.

He flashes a supercilious smile. “Well, that’s assuming I had them,” he says.

“Billy.” I lean forward and catch his eye. “I think you still have them.”

“You know, Terry,” Billy sneers, “not everyone needs to fit inside your neat little—”

I cut him off , speaking softly. “You finally manage to get out of that hellhole of a family and not five months into your freshman year you’re so depressed you can’t sleep, eat, or make it to class. But you sit here and tell me this is our last session, you have nothing to work on, and you don’t have any feelings.” His face flushes, but I keep going. He is either going to get on board or not. “You know, if you keep going on like this, Billy, I think you’ll be headed right back home again . Is that what this is really about ?” I ask. “Before the end of next semester, I’d guess.” I lean back in my chair. “Believe me.”

He turns on me , angry. “That was a low blow, mister!” Even though it is in anger, I can feel his connection.

“You need help, Billy,” I tell him, flatly.

“‘ You need help, man. Hey. You really need help, ‘” Billy mocks me, furious, turning his face to the wall. But his eyes fill with tears, despite himself. We sit, quiet awhile, not looking at one another. A few minutes pass. “I’m a loser,” Billy says at last, the apathetic veneer collapsing. He sounds small, frightened. “A big fucking loser!”

“You’re a boy,” I answer. “A sad boy trying to deal with it all.”

Billy stays quiet awhile, still not looking at me. A few minutes later he says, still in his child’s voice, “You want to hear the sickest thing?”

“Okay, sure,” I say gently.

“I swear,” he begins to cry softly, “this is so f****g ill.” “Go on,” I tell him. “The sickest thing is … I think I miss them.” He stifles his tears . “If you really want to know the truth. I mean, how is that?” He twists further away in his chair . “I think that, really, what this whole thing is, is I’m homesick is all. I finally get the f*** out of there and then I fall apart ‘cause I’m homesick. Jesus!” Billy buries his face in his hands and, for a brief moment, fully gives in to his tears.

I hand him a tissue. “Go on and cry, Billy,” I say. “There’s a lot to be sad about. You have a right to be sad.”

“I hate this!” he gasps. “Breaking down.”

“You’re not breaking down. You’re crying. Breaking down happens to people who don’t cry.”

Billy blows his nose, loudly , a couple of times. He squints up at me with his belligerent, acne-ridden face. “Do you know what the f** you’re talking about?” he asks , collecting a mound of tissues on his lap.

“Here.” I hold up the wastepaper basket, like a hoop, for him to throw his wet tissues into. “ Take a shot.”
[/quote]

One of the characteristic features in Billy's account that Real picks up on is that there is an absence of feeling for the child. Billy felt sorry for the parents but not for himself. Later events showed that Billy did not simply cut off feelings for his own child self - he actively despised that self.

[quote author=I Don't Want To Talk About It]
In depression, the childhood violence that had been leveled against the boy— whether physical or psychological, active or passive— takes up permanent habitation within him. The depressed man adopts a relationship to himself that mirrors and replicates the dynamics of his own early abuse . This phenomenon, which I call empathic reversal, is the link connecting trauma to depression. To understand the mechanism of empathic reversal, we must accept a disturbing truth— that trauma intrinsically involves fusion between the offender and his victim. In the very moment of damage, some form of unholy intimacy occurs, in part because trauma always involves a failure of boundaries. In active trauma, a child’s boundaries are violated. The parent is uncontained , out of control. In passive trauma, the parent neglects the child’s needs; the boundary between parent and child is too rigid, impenetrable. Both are instances of boundary dysfunction .
......
When a child is traumatized— by a parent who is either negligent or out of control— his first and most profound response will be to take responsibility for the failing parent. When a child
comes face to face with a caregiver’s pathology , that child will do whatever he must to reinstate the caregiver’s psychological equilibrium.
A child’s need to preserve his attachment, his willingness to contort himself into whatever shape the parent needs him to be in during such moments represents one of the least recognized, most pervasive, and most powerful psychological forces in human development.
...........

Both as a result of the boundary failure and as an unconscious coping strategy, the child will take the feelings that the parent is not handling responsibly into his being. Along with whatever other feeling-states may be involved— anger, pain, lust, fear— it is inevitable that one of the feeling-states transmitted to children in such traumatic moments will be the feeling of shame.
.....

When a parent traumatizes a child, he is in a state of shamelessness. If the injurer felt appropriate shame, he would contain his harmful behavior . The shame a parent does not consciously feel will be absorbed, along with other unconscious feelings, by the child. Pia Mellody has called these transmitted states carried shame and carried feeling. They are the means by which the wound, the legacy of pain, is passed from father to son, mother to son, across generations. Carried feeling and carried shame are the psychological seeds of depression.
[/quote]

The injury causing events of childhood with its accompanying psychological exchange plays out as a drama repeatedly in later life in different situations with different actors.

Elan Golomb described the internalized tyrant as the "negative introject" ( link ). In effect, trauma splits up the internal psychic land of the victim into a harsh punitive child (internalized from the abuser) and the scared, traumatized child (the repressed victim).
 
[quote author=Obyvatel]Quote from: I Don't Want To Talk About It

In depression, the childhood violence that had been leveled against the boy— whether physical or psychological, active or passive— takes up permanent habitation within him. The depressed man adopts a relationship to himself that mirrors and replicates the dynamics of his own early abuse . This phenomenon, which I call empathic reversal, is the link connecting trauma to depression. To understand the mechanism of empathic reversal, we must accept a disturbing truth— that trauma intrinsically involves fusion between the offender and his victim. In the very moment of damage, some form of unholy intimacy occurs, in part because trauma always involves a failure of boundaries. In active trauma, a child’s boundaries are violated. The parent is uncontained , out of control. In passive trauma, the parent neglects the child’s needs; the boundary between parent and child is too rigid, impenetrable. Both are instances of boundary dysfunction .
......
When a child is traumatized— by a parent who is either negligent or out of control— his first and most profound response will be to take responsibility for the failing parent. When a child
comes face to face with a caregiver’s pathology , that child will do whatever he must to reinstate the caregiver’s psychological equilibrium. A child’s need to preserve his attachment, his willingness to contort himself into whatever shape the parent needs him to be in during such moments represents one of the least recognized, most pervasive, and most powerful psychological forces in human development.
...........

Both as a result of the boundary failure and as an unconscious coping strategy, the child will take the feelings that the parent is not handling responsibly into his being. Along with whatever other feeling-states may be involved— anger, pain, lust, fear— it is inevitable that one of the feeling-states transmitted to children in such traumatic moments will be the feeling of shame.
.....

When a parent traumatizes a child, he is in a state of shamelessness. If the injurer felt appropriate shame, he would contain his harmful behavior . The shame a parent does not consciously feel will be absorbed, along with other unconscious feelings, by the child. Pia Mellody has called these transmitted states carried shame and carried feeling. They are the means by which the wound, the legacy of pain, is passed from father to son, mother to son, across generations. Carried feeling and carried shame are the psychological seeds of depression.


The injury causing events of childhood with its accompanying psychological exchange plays out as a drama repeatedly in later life in different situations with different actors.

Elan Golomb described the internalized tyrant as the "negative introject" ( link ). In effect, trauma splits up the internal psychic land of the victim into a harsh punitive child (internalized from the abuser) and the scared, traumatized child (the repressed victim). [/quote]

If I understand correctly the child put the blame on himself when he experiences rage from parents.
"I have to be very bad if my parents treats me like that."
Feeling of worthlessness, shame, guilt.
It's a vicious circle.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
It's a great thread!
Thank you Obyvatel and everybody!
:flowers:
 
Emma said:
If I understand correctly the child put the blame on himself when he experiences rage from parents.
"I have to be very bad if my parents treats me like that."
Feeling of worthlessness, shame, guilt.
It's a vicious circle.

Yes, that is correct. In addition to feeling worthlessness, shame and guilt, the child also internalizes the rage (or whatever other emotion was directed at him/her) from the parents. In the example of Billy, the parents behaved as if he was not there when they fought amongst each other. Whatever the parents do, they model for the child that it is ok to behave like this . If it is uncontrolled rage or emotional violence directed at the child, it shows the child that it is ok to behave like that. So in his/her internal world, the child carries both the shame and the other feelings relevant to the situation that the parents were experiencing and demonstrating through their behavior.

Identifying with the abuser and losing feelings for oneself is what Real called "empathic reversal". One loses legitimate feelings for oneself because at an early age, one is dependent on parents to model and reflect back the appropriate ways of responding to situations. This early empathic reversal forms the seed of future depression. The way out, according to Real, is to reverse the process and develop the correct relationship with both the abused child and the introjected abusing figure.

[quote author=I Don't Want To Talk About It]
From the first moments a depressed man enters my office, most of the actions I take are aimed at reconnecting the dismembered, pained self and challenging the toxic, internalized offender.

First , the harsh force of shamelessness and the grandiose defenses must be confronted and stilled. If the anger and pain are directed away from the self, as is usually the case in covert depression, the addictive defenses and the irresponsible behaviors must stop, allowing the underlying depression to surface.

If the harsh, offending energy is directed inward, as it is in overt depression, it, too, must be stilled. The vulnerable part of the self must be protected , encouraged, and nurtured. Both internal children— the wounded boy and the harsh boy— must learn nuanced maturity and responsibility.

Contrary to some “inner child” work currently in vogue, the goal of therapy with depressed men rarely aims at granting further license to either of these immature aspects of self. Often without their conscious awareness, these regressed ego states may already be running—and ruining —men’s lives. But denying their existence, refusing to deal with these already fragmented parts of the self, is also not a solution. By bringing the man into a conscious, healthy relationship with these unintegrated yet potent aspects of self, therapy attempts to enhance, or in some cases, to bring into being for the first time, a functioning internal adult .

[/quote]
 
Thank you Obyvatel!

The description is so much like my brother's life:

Our parents divorced when I was 4 y.o. and he was 7.
They decided to my brother is going to live with my father and I stay with my mom.
It was just a few years ago my brother told me my father beat him every day.
That explains a lot of his insecurity and behavioral problems, anger, rage, negative attitude towards people.

Not only that, but both part of my family they played this game : put the blame on the other side, my father and his parents blamed my mother and my mother's family put the blame on my father and for a child in a young age very confusing when your family from both sides tell you a different version of their perspective.
My mom 's side of the family put a bug guilt trip on him when he was like 7 or 8 years old he spat on
the family name:
"Phooey Homrodi!" ( Homrodi is my mother's maiden name)

Putting guilt and shame onto a 7 year old child because both side of the family behaving like raving lunatics did a lot of damage in him.

Later on he didn't have neither has a relationship, girlfriend for long term.
He was married once to an exgirlfriend whom got pregnant after he broke up with her.
He didn't treat her right as you can imagine.
He used to beat her up front of me couple of times and I find that out my sister-in law was an abused child also.
her father used to beat her and she never showed emotions, she talked very little, and NEVER talked about her feelings.
Later she died from breast cancer when she was 46 years old. (When The Body Says No)

They have a son , my nephew who is an intelligent young man, he helps my mother a lot and my mom tries to give him emotional support.
My brother was a very bright child and had good grades in the beginning.
Later on he wasn't the best student and instead of High School he went to apprenticeship to a prosthetic limb factory.
Later on became a car mechanic.
He is a great guy.
He loves our mother do everything to support her, although he support himself, because he doesn't have a job anymore and since he broke his knee he can't work as a car mechanic.
So it seems symbolic, everything broken in his life.
He is very depressed.


Thanks again Obyvatel and I just purchased the book!
:read:
 
On reading the description of the symptoms of Covert depression I was struck by the similarity with some of the symptoms of Neo natal trauma, and on exploring, the similarities with the effects of my Chief Feature – see table below.

Covert depression Neo natal trauma Chief Feature

Dissociation Disconnected from own and Disconnected and dissociated
others’ needs, unable to take
ownership of my feelings

Strong levels of anxiety Chronically anxious Anxiety, worry

Perfectionism, workaholic Fear of disapproval Perfectionism, fear of not being good enough

Emotional numbness (inability to Emotionally flat Difficulty in expressing feelings (‘heart in head’)
identify, differentiate, and
describe own emotions (no words
for emotions))

Difficulty in distinguishing Trouble feeling affectionate
and appreciating emotion in guardedness in relationships
others and oriented towards (lack of trust), difficulty in Shyness
‘things’ establishing intimate
relationships, to be in a
relationship with women

Conforming to external standards A sense of personal Lacking inner strength and security (a sense of
powerlessness emptiness)

Disengaged and difficulty in Decreased ability in Perfecting self in private before communicating
interpersonal relating - ineffective communicating (a lack of spontaneity)
relating and un-empathetic and a
feeling of not being understood

Covert depression presents symptoms that need overcoming – taking the learnings - similarly Neo natal trauma is an event that produces symptoms that need overcoming. In fact both are means of reinforcing my Chief Feature – which are again issues that need overcoming for the learnings in this lifetime. So there are choices and experiences made/pre-made for experiencing in this lifetime. Or so it seems to me.
 
Prodigal Son said:
On reading the description of the symptoms of Covert depression I was struck by the similarity with some of the symptoms of Neo natal trauma, and on exploring, the similarities with the effects of my Chief Feature

There are research findings that corroborate what you wrote, Prodigal Son. It relates to early trauma in primates through separation from their mothers.

[quote author=I Don't Want To Talk About It]
Primate infants who are separated from their mothers have been shown to have abnormal changes in levels of the brain neurotransmitter serotonin, a chemical whose imbalance has long been associated with depression, and which is affected by Prozac. Adrenal enzymes also change with maternal separation , as do blood cortisol levels, heart rate, body temperature, and sleep. Researcher Bessel van der Kolk notes that: “ These changes are not transient or mild , and their persistence suggests that long-term neurobiological alterations underlie the psychological effects of early separation.”

In several experiments monkeys who suffered early isolation apparently adjusted well under normal circumstances, but proved to be markedly more vulnerable to both physical illness and severe depression when placed in a challenging situation, or faced again with loss.

Antidepressant medications ameliorate or even reverse both the physiological signs and the behavioral changes that accompany early maternal separation in monkeys, leading some biologists to speculate that early maternal deprivation in monkeys might prove a good working model for depression in humans . These observations have implications for our understanding of addictions as well. If early maternal separation produces upset in monkeys, opioids, like morphine, relieve it. In fact , no substance has been shown to be more effective in alleviating such distress. Monkeys that had been isolated in youth display increased sensitivity to amphetamines and opioids, as well as increased alcohol consumption, when compared to normally raised controls. And these changes accelerate when the monkeys are put under stress. Research on the biology of trauma is beginning to teach us that even apparently mild childhood injuries can produce lasting physiological change.
[/quote]

Apart from external substances, anger is known to promote release of endorphins (endogenous or body's morphine) as well as producing amphetamine like analgesic effect. Chronic resentment and occasional angry outbursts can thus act as a temporary and somewhat ineffective coping mechanism that keeps the pain of depression from surfacing.
 
Thank you Obyvatel and contributors for a very helpful discussion.
Good information for everyone to know.
I will be sharing some of these ideas with my nephew as they describe his issues perfectly.
Perhaps he will feel enough relief to seek professional help.
 
I have a question (hopefully better than my first!);

Is it ok to feel bad? Usually feeling bad doesn't feel like it is ok.
 
One of the aims of the Work is struggle against negative emotions.
I guess we feeling bad isn't the real issue, but you can get used to
the state and start enjoying it, which prompts self-justifying and it drains
your energy.

Quotes from Mouravieff

All sorts of considerations dictated by
worldly wisdom and mundane vanity; the habitual practice of lying —
especially to ourselves — and hypocrisy, from which no one is totally
exempt, imprint dangerous distortions on the emotional centre.
Frequently struck by a feeling of inferiority and by the need for compensation, its
usual motivation; accustomed as it is to judge and to criticize everybody
and everything; surrendering itself to a strangely voluptuous enjoyment
of negative emotions; this centre becomes unrecognizable. It degenerates
to the point where it becomes the instrument of destruction of our being, which
it accelerates on its way towards ageing and death

The first imperative, then, is to stop wasting these forces, to turn
off the taps which let the energy escape uselessly: sterile emotions, in
particular negative emotions; fantasies from uncontrolled imagination;
uncoordinated mental gymnastics, gossiping and chattering. We must
thus act like a wise minister of finance and carefully economize our
energies, yet without all the time sterilizing either our activity or our
intelligence. On the contrary, we must store and as far as possible augment these forces to build up our reserves. These are the two main aspects
of the first objective we have to attain.
 
luke Wilson
Is it ok to feel bad? Usually feeling bad doesn't feel like it is ok.

If you really think about what you just asked Luke, I bet you will find the answer is intuitive.

If we did not "feel bad," or rather, experience negative emotions, how would we LEARN about what is "good" or positive, useful, necessary for survival, and growth?

The way I understand the concept is that facing/experiencing negative feelings is not only necessary for human growth, but part of accepting the objective reality of the cosmos--
seeing all the "faces of God" if you will.

There is a discussion in The Work thread, one of several addressing the importance of negative emotions, that should begin to answer your question, although
it takes much research and learning to begin to accept that negative emotions are not only OK but necessary. Look for discussion on this topic throughout the Forum.
This may be a useful place to begin.
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,7197.msg50812.html#msg50812
 
luke wilson said:
I have a question (hopefully better than my first!);

Is it ok to feel bad? Usually feeling bad doesn't feel like it is ok.

I found an interesting way to think about negative emotion in this presentation by Bill Joslin on Gnostic Media radio.

_http://www.gnosticmedia.com/bill-joslin-meditation-202/ said:
As new information which is relevant to the self is encountered, it is assimilated into awareness through definition of the self and/or a defined context of the world.
If there is no context for information then it is simply not categorized thus we remain unaware of it. As this information becomes important, conflicts with, or is too large for these definitions then a “pressure” is exerted on the personality. We experience this as negative emotion, distress. It is simply tension.
As these definitions (self and world) change to accommodate and assimilate the new information we gain insight. We experience this as positive emotion, elation etc.
Emotion is the result of the self/world object being confronted with conflicting information - it is the increase or release of tension between information and self/world view. It gives us a focus and motivation to assimilate new information. It tells us nothing about reality only that new information is being resisted or assimilated.
Emotion is not information it is the reaction to new or conflicting information.

You could also say that the reaction to new information IS information in itself.
 
I'm a bit late to this thread but I just wanted to thank Obyvatel and everyone participating on this thread.

Obyvatel said:
Quote from: I Don't Want To Talk About It
In depression, the childhood violence that had been leveled against the boy— whether physical or psychological, active or passive— takes up permanent habitation within him. The depressed man adopts a relationship to himself that mirrors and replicates the dynamics of his own early abuse . This phenomenon, which I call empathic reversal, is the link connecting trauma to depression. To understand the mechanism of empathic reversal, we must accept a disturbing truth— that trauma intrinsically involves fusion between the offender and his victim. In the very moment of damage, some form of unholy intimacy occurs, in part because trauma always involves a failure of boundaries. In active trauma, a child’s boundaries are violated. The parent is uncontained , out of control. In passive trauma, the parent neglects the child’s needs; the boundary between parent and child is too rigid, impenetrable. Both are instances of boundary dysfunction .
......
When a child is traumatized— by a parent who is either negligent or out of control— his first and most profound response will be to take responsibility for the failing parent. When a child
comes face to face with a caregiver’s pathology , that child will do whatever he must to reinstate the caregiver’s psychological equilibrium. A child’s need to preserve his attachment, his willingness to contort himself into whatever shape the parent needs him to be in during such moments represents one of the least recognized, most pervasive, and most powerful psychological forces in human development.

...........

Both as a result of the boundary failure and as an unconscious coping strategy, the child will take the feelings that the parent is not handling responsibly into his being. Along with whatever other feeling-states may be involved— anger, pain, lust, fear— it is inevitable that one of the feeling-states transmitted to children in such traumatic moments will be the feeling of shame.
.....

When a parent traumatizes a child, he is in a state of shamelessness. If the injurer felt appropriate shame, he would contain his harmful behavior . The shame a parent does not consciously feel will be absorbed, along with other unconscious feelings, by the child. Pia Mellody has called these transmitted states carried shame and carried feeling. They are the means by which the wound, the legacy of pain, is passed from father to son, mother to son, across generations. Carried feeling and carried shame are the psychological seeds of depression.

The bolded part sums up my childhood experiences with my mother really well. I've never been able to understand why I would act the way I did for so long, taking responsibility for things a child just shouldn't be responsible for, trying to be better as the blame towards me slowly got assimilated. Some years ago I thought it was all based on fear, but it's clearly more complex. I also always told myself that I wasn't ashamed, had nothing to feel guilty for (was consistently asked and told these things) and because I did everything demanded of me and far beyond, then it mattered not whether she knew it... and that was that. Then came my depression in early adulthood but I'm sure that it stemmed from my teens. Like nicklebleu, I was unsure about this numbness of feeling and I think my autoimmune problems compounded my mis-reading of it at the time. Then again, after reading about dysthymia (thanks French Marigold) it could've been that.

And with regards to the way boys are typically raised, some of those things I know very well from my old social groups, fortunately I didn't subscribe to the pathological concept of "being a man." Which brought new pressures from said groups. Unsurprisingly, plenty of mothers will also share this view and pass it on to their sons (probably as bad giving a negative view to their daughters of "a real man" too) but I did develop this "edge" where I didn't feel connected to people. I became distrustful of people in general. I became cynical.. all as a defence mechanism. I could feel emotions but I never felt they were deep enough as empathetic people would react in a way that made think that something was seriously wrong with me. But who has time to nurture the proper emotional development of a boy (or young man) that seems normal? :(
 

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