Covert Depression

[Leonarda]

When I first came to the US and gradually got acquainted with the culture here, one of the things that startled me was this "homophobia". I grew up in Asia and had not heard the word "homo" until I was in college. The culture I grew up in did not frown upon emotionally intimate friendship among boys/men. So I feel lucky to have not been conditioned by this strange homophobic tendencies that seem to pervade western culture. In fact, there were a few old friends whom I had the chance to meet with after coming to US. I distinctly remember an incident where some of us were doing the relatively common hands over the shoulders of another friend while being out in a group when someone said something to the effect of "don't do it here, people would think you are gay". And of course, my son "knows" about gay/homo from his elementary school friends (he surprised me recently with a comment) and is already becoming conscious of what he should or should not do or say so that people do not get the wrong idea. It is quite a strong cultural force as far as I can see and it starts affecting children very early. Irrespective of what a child learns from home, as Terrence Real wrote in his book cited in this thread, it is peer pressure that largely shapes these attitudes. I just feel sad.

I really understand what you mean, obyvatel. And to go off on a bit of a tangent, I feel similar feelings of sadness when I think about how a lot of women here in the US are so spiteful, jealous, non-trusting, etc. of other women. If more women could come together, forget their biases and such, I think that we would have a much better country.

But, that's what psychopaths do - keep us all divided from each other. Even keep us fighting ourselves. :(

They are masters identifying our weak spots for sure. One thing I noticed about US women (I suposse can also be said about other countries) is the other extreme, they may talk bad about each other on the back but then in social media when somebody uploads a photo for example they make exaggerated demonstrations of love to people they don't know or know little about, like the words are empty and there's no real "connection".

 

[kalibex]

For many years, I have felt so critical of and angry towards men in general — blaming them for all the problems in the world. Yes, I know. Totally illogical, irrational, inaccurate, and untrue. But, even knowing that, I still felt that way.

What this thread has done is dissolve all that. Such a huge rage and grief and compassion for the plight of the wounded and abused and mistreated boys has risen within me, it’s almost unbearable.

13 Twirling Triskeles, I heard this song tonight on youtube, and thought of this specific post.

To Be A Man

What does it take to be a man?
What does it take to see
It's all heart and soul
A gentle hand?
So easy to want and so hard to give
How can you be a man
'Till you see beyond the life you live?
Oh, what does it take to be a man?

We can be blind, but a man tries to see
It takes tenderness
For a man to be what he can be
And what does it mean
If you're weak or strong?
A gentle feelin'
can make it right or make it wrong
What does it take to be a man?

The will to give and not receive
The strength to say what you believe
The heart to feel what others feel inside
To see what they can see

A man is somethin' that's real
It's not what you are
It's what you can feel
It can't be too late
To look through the hate and see
I know that's what a man can be

Writer: Tom Scholz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL2-FscKY3E

 

[13 Twirling Triskeles]

For many years, I have felt so critical of and angry towards men in general — blaming them for all the problems in the world. Yes, I know. Totally illogical, irrational, inaccurate, and untrue. But, even knowing that, I still felt that way.

What this thread has done is dissolve all that. Such a huge rage and grief and compassion for the plight of the wounded and abused and mistreated boys has risen within me, it’s almost unbearable.

13 Twirling Triskeles, I heard this song tonight on youtube, and thought of this specific post.

To Be A Man

What does it take to be a man?
What does it take to see
It's all heart and soul
A gentle hand?
So easy to want and so hard to give
How can you be a man
'Till you see beyond the life you live?
Oh, what does it take to be a man?

<snip>

Hi kalibex -- thank you for posting these beautiful song lyrics. Yes, I am just now beginning to barely glimpse the true horror of the situation for men. I thought it was bad enough for women. Now I'm seeing that a major part of why it's so bad for women in our society is because it's so horrifying for men in our society. Jeeesh. The psychos just never miss a beat when they can bash the heck out of us all, do they?

Where does this idea about men loving men equate with men being gay? And so what if men are gay anyway? Who the heck thinks that's a stigma? Maybe I have a really warped idea because I lived in San Francisco from 1965 until 2011 -- with periodic moves and stays away in various other states and countries.

But I am so used to gay and lesbian and transvestite and transgender and bisexual culture, that I have a really hard time seeing the world from a homophobic viewpoint. It actually sort of shocks me when people express a fear of being thought gay. There have been times when I wished that more men were gay. Gay men were more fun to hang out with, more open about expressing their emotions and they were like hanging out with the girls -- frankly straight men seemed more alien to me than gay men. They would rarely speak about their feelings or the kinds of subjects women easily talk about. And that's an attitude I share with a lot of women -- even outside of San Francisco.

And now I see why -- at least partly why -- straight men have seemed so alien to me. Because they have been intentionally or unintentionally programmed and brainwashed into becoming alienated from their very own essence from their own human-ness. Just writing that makes me feel so furious. I am so mad I could spit. I want to scream at the top of my lungs. OK -- breathing deeply and calming down.

I just feel the utter waste of it all. All these years we've been set up to war with each other (men & women) when we could have been aligned -- when we could have helped each other -- cared and loved and felt empathy and compassion for each others' plights. We could have cleared our eyes to see and cleared our ears to hear and cleansed our hearts to know the holiness (whole-iness) of true existence -- TOGETHER -- as genuine and sincere brothers and sisters. Phooey!

My question is this: Is there anything in particular and specifically we women can do to assist the men to heal? I realize that's a pretty general question and probably every single man has a different answer, but if I ask that question in reverse -- what can men in general do to help women to heal, I would have some answers that would apply to men in general. To Wit: What men can do to help women heal is for the men to heal themselves. That alone would help women. And I suspect the reverse is also true. We women should attend to healing our wounds so we don't need to blame the men for our wounds -- as I was doing for so many years.

OK - sorry this post is getting too long -- Cheers and Blessings upon you all.

 

[monotonic]

I want to scream at the top of my lungs. OK -- breathing deeply and calming down.

Go ahead and scream - then do breathing. Sometimes I see new things after I let the energy out rather than trying to suppress it. There can be learning through the act of letting it out.

EDIT: Or beat a pillow instead! Less disruptive to neighbors - don't want to freak anyone out.

My question is this: Is there anything in particular and specifically we women can do to assist the men to heal? I realize that's a pretty general question and probably every single man has a different answer, but if I ask that question in reverse -- what can men in general do to help women to heal, I would have some answers that would apply to men in general. To Wit: What men can do to help women heal is for the men to heal themselves. That alone would help women. And I suspect the reverse is also true. We women should attend to healing our wounds so we don't need to blame the men for our wounds -- as I was doing for so many years.

I think the best you can do is show, to those who are asking, that it is all a myth. Then they must decide what they will do about it. You must leave them the option to think what they will think - it is up them to choose. To try to change anyone but yourself is a waste of time. But through external considering, informed by an accurate perspective of such social problems, you can prepare the ground for positive things to grow.

 

[13 Twirling Triskeles]

I want to scream at the top of my lungs. OK -- breathing deeply and calming down.

Go ahead and scream - then do breathing. Sometimes I see new things after I let the energy out rather than trying to suppress it. There can be learning through the act of letting it out.

EDIT: Or beat a pillow instead! Less disruptive to neighbors - don't want to freak anyone out.

LOLOL -- Yes. I agree. It's odd. I feel just as furious about what's been done to others as I feel about what's been done to me. Or -- maybe it's not so odd. :)

My question is this: Is there anything in particular and specifically we women can do to assist the men to heal? I realize that's a pretty general question and probably every single man has a different answer, but if I ask that question in reverse -- what can men in general do to help women to heal, I would have some answers that would apply to men in general. To Wit: What men can do to help women heal is for the men to heal themselves. That alone would help women. And I suspect the reverse is also true. We women should attend to healing our wounds so we don't need to blame the men for our wounds -- as I was doing for so many years.

I think the best you can do is show, to those who are asking, that it is all a myth. Then they must decide what they will do about it. You must leave them the option to think what they will think - it is up them to choose. To try to change anyone but yourself is a waste of time. But through external considering, informed by an accurate perspective of such social problems, you can prepare the ground for positive things to grow.

Yes. I agree. I think that's what I realized as well. And it's already occurring. Last week, I had previously mentioned to my next door neighbor and good friend -- and two of my sisters -- that I was feeling I needed to open my heart chakra because I'd shut it down -- intentionally and on purpose -- and put compassion in the closet. So I was going to do some EE to help me with that task. And they, being such close and good friends, encouraged me to pursue that avenue for that purpose.

A few days later, before I got around to doing the EE, I happened to read this thread -- and BOOM. The heart burst open and the compassion broke down the door of the closet and jumped free. And here we are today. Indeed, the truth really does set us free after all. :)

So I was bringing them up-to-date about this scenario and how the information in this thread has changed my viewpoint and attitude towards men in general and specific men in particular. And we all agreed that seeing and understanding this will have a deep impact on our future interactions with men -- because we will not be able to see them in the old light.

We're all feeling relieved to know this information because it increases our understanding and reduces so much confusion we've been experiencing vis-a-vis the men in our lives. Restores some order in the chaos.

It's a major shift. I think it's rearranging all those little magnetic filings, yes? LOL

It's odd that now I see men as precious beings whereas before I saw them as enemies. God! I can't believe I was so completely off the mark.

Edited grammar.

 

[nicklebleu]

The flipside of this antigay culture we live in is that boys must grow up as being a "man" and not a "girl". I used to have a female friend when I was about 5 years old that I liked to play with more than with the local boys who were always fighting amongst each other. We both got along splendidly. I was constantly taunted as being "girlish" for that until I started to avoid her and went back to "play" with the boys again. So sad ...

 

[13 Twirling Triskeles]

The flipside of this antigay culture we live in is that boys must grow up as being a "man" and not a "girl". I used to have a female friend when I was about 5 years old that I liked to play with more than with the local boys who were always fighting amongst each other. We both got along splendidly. I was constantly taunted as being "girlish" for that until I started to avoid her and went back to "play" with the boys again. So sad ...

Oh ouch! :( You know that saying, "Why can't we all just get along?" Well, I think we could all just get along pretty darn well if we weren't overtly and covertly and manipulatively steered away from doing just that. Is it fear that drives us to drive others? It's just all so darn ouch. So much loss. So much sadness and separation. Aaaaargh!

nicklebleu -- I'm so sorry you were taunted and had to avoid being with your little girl friend in order to be accepted by the other boys. You're right. It is sad -- for both you and her. I'm sure she missed her little friend as much as you missed her. Did she ever know why you stopped hanging out with her?

God. It's all just so vicious. Unintentional I grant. But the sense of loss and painful separation feelings don't seem to differentiate between intentional and un-intentional. It's more like a switch -- they're on or they're off -- the feelings I mean. Double Ouch!

 

[nicklebleu]

nicklebleu -- I'm so sorry you were taunted and had to avoid being with your little girl friend in order to be accepted by the other boys. You're right. It is sad -- for both you and her. I'm sure she missed her little friend as much as you missed her. Did she ever know why you stopped hanging out with her?

I haven't had contact with her in over 40 years. We moved to another village and lost contact. I still had some contact with her twin brothers for some time, as they taught me to fly RC planes. No idea where she lives now, what she does, etc.

Sad indeed ...

 

[MusicMan]

I want to scream at the top of my lungs. OK -- breathing deeply and calming down.

Go ahead and scream - then do breathing. Sometimes I see new things after I let the energy out rather than trying to suppress it. There can be learning through the act of letting it out.

EDIT: Or beat a pillow instead! Less disruptive to neighbors - don't want to freak anyone out.

LOLOL -- Yes. I agree. It's odd. I feel just as furious about what's been done to others as I feel about what's been done to me. Or -- maybe it's not so odd. :)

My question is this: Is there anything in particular and specifically we women can do to assist the men to heal? I realize that's a pretty general question and probably every single man has a different answer, but if I ask that question in reverse -- what can men in general do to help women to heal, I would have some answers that would apply to men in general. To Wit: What men can do to help women heal is for the men to heal themselves. That alone would help women. And I suspect the reverse is also true. We women should attend to healing our wounds so we don't need to blame the men for our wounds -- as I was doing for so many years.

I think the best you can do is show, to those who are asking, that it is all a myth. Then they must decide what they will do about it. You must leave them the option to think what they will think - it is up them to choose. To try to change anyone but yourself is a waste of time. But through external considering, informed by an accurate perspective of such social problems, you can prepare the ground for positive things to grow.

Yes. I agree. I think that's what I realized as well. And it's already occurring. Last week, I had previously mentioned to my next door neighbor and good friend -- and two of my sisters -- that I was feeling I needed to open my heart chakra because I'd shut it down -- intentionally and on purpose -- and put compassion in the closet. So I was going to do some EE to help me with that task. And they, being such close and good friends, encouraged me to pursue that avenue for that purpose.

A few days later, before I got around to doing the EE, I happened to read this thread -- and BOOM. The heart burst open and the compassion broke down the door of the closet and jumped free. And here we are today. Indeed, the truth really does set us free after all. :)

So I was bringing them up-to-date about this scenario and how the information in this thread has changed my viewpoint and attitude towards men in general and specific men in particular. And we all agreed that seeing and understanding this will have a deep impact on our future interactions with men -- because we will not be able to see them in the old light.

We're all feeling relieved to know this information because it increases our understanding and reduces so much confusion we've been experiencing vis-a-vis the men in our lives. Restores some order in the chaos.

It's a major shift. I think it's rearranging all those little magnetic filings, yes? LOL

It's odd that now I see men as precious beings whereas before I saw them as enemies. God! I can't believe I was so completely off the mark.

Edited grammar.

Hello 13, I am happy that you are happy.
It is hard for men to break free from the programming we go through, and the peer pressure we face, in growing up and in our employment.
We have to learn to forgive ourselves, for the dark deeds of our 'past' (which cannot be changed) and learn to stop sending ourselves on guilt trips.
Then we can learn to forgive others, and learn to stop sending them on guilt trips as well.
After all, every body has a 'past', some darker than others, and it can be difficult dragging yourself out of the mire.
Now you can set all that behind you, where it belongs, and choose a happy 'future'.

 

[Neil]

I read the beautiful friendships article yesterday and I have to say that it is about a 90% accurate portrayal of my adolescence. On top of the more or less Platonic "bromances," I have experienced genuine homosexual arousal. My system just doesn't recognize physical, emotional, or intellectual attraction as something that is gender dependent. I have tried to bury this fact my entire life because of the homophobic attitudes that Obyvatel mentioned.

I've never been particularly interested in the "masculine ideal." The men in my family were always very knowledgeable of machinery and equipment and how to fix it and were just flabbergasted that I was a "woman" in this regard and could never really pick it up and had no real interest beyond learning what was absolutely necessary. I never idolized Clint Eastwood or Arnold Schwarzenegger, while they always saved the day, their general demeanor just seemed antipodal to how I felt inside. I remember my uncle wanting me to "pump up" so that I would be able to beat up some boys that were picking on me, and while I did kind of want to beat them up, I really didn't have any desire to turn into the incredible hulk. I've always had sort of a slight build, and a tendency to wear my hair and my nails long because "manning up" makes me feel "butchered." People at work consider me a bit emasculated, but my analytical ability tends to offset their attitudes a bit.

The whole gay thing hit me pretty hard around the age of 13. I mean kids were telling me that God was going to send me to hell for being gay and then doing these gyrations before I even knew what gay was. After being taunted with depictions of these graphic sexual acts, I "learned" that gay was some aberrant sexual behavior characterized by any sort of physical intimacy between two guys. Now it just so happened that I had this male friend who would hug me and we would hold hands together occasionally, which only added fuel to the fire. Some days I would come home from school crying, and while the men in my family were somewhat supportive, they really wanted me to toughen up. Real men don't cry. Real men don't feel much of anything...

Anyway, back to my friend, we would have sleepovers where we would share a bed and sometimes end up more or less in each other's arms. One night, we were horsing around, wrestling in the bed and I started kissing him and we were sort of playfully touching each other. It was all very innocent and I was kind of caught up in the moment when it suddenly dawned on me that we were being gay. I cannot quite convey the overwhelming feeling of sheer terror that came over me at that moment. Thoughts were racing through my mind about how all of those terrible things those other kids were saying about us were true. I quickly withdrew into a corner and he kind of wondered what happened. We got more and more distant after that. About a year later, he came out as gay and kind of hinted that he had a crush on me. Our friendship didn't last very long after that. I even ridiculed him a little. Nothing was worse than being gay...

While I wasn't sexually attracted to my friend, I did experience sexual arousal to guys I thought were "sweet, smart, and handsome." In light of what happened with my friend, I tried to sweep it under the rug as much as possible, but it never entirely went away. Senior year of high school there was a girl that I was very attracted to and we had a bit of a bond that took my mind off of same sex intimacy. Nevertheless, because I had basically cut myself off from my friend over the perception of being gay, I became very guarded and basically found that I lacked the ability to really be emotionally close with anyone.

A couple more years went by and I decided to dip my toe in the water of the gay world because I thought that gay men might understand it better and I would finally be able to settle the question of whether I had this terrible affliction called homosexuality or not. Without boring you with the details, the gay scene just struck me as passing around cheap sex, no strings attached. There was nothing to be learned there. A lot of the behaviors which are promulgated such as barebacking did seem rather repugnant to me and threw me into a general state of confusion regarding my orientation. I remember asking this one gay couple who seemed to be of a bit of a higher caliber whether anyone looks for any kind of intimate connection anymore, and they said yes, but they are very few and far between. On the way home, I thought about how the same dynamic plays out among heterosexual couples it's just a little more covert.

In some cases, the result is not so much of a rescuer but a cynical-beyond-the-years personality where there is a an avoidance of deep connection with others, perhaps as a way of avoiding potential betrayal in a relationship.

This pretty much describes my attitude toward relationships. As I've gotten older I've just gotten more and more entrenched in my avoidant personality. My base level requirement for anything beyond a tenuous friendship is an awareness and understanding of the various topics discussed here. They don't have to be a Cassiopaea member or even have heard of Laura, but they have to have a basic familiarity with the concepts, otherwise there is quite literally nothing to talk about. I have met three such people in my life, two male and one female. Two of those I had romantic feelings about and one became my best friend. However, the lives of my "romantic interests" always went in different directions, and my best friend and I sort of hit a wall. Every time this happens, it feels like a piece of my soul is ripped out. You finally find someone you feel you can reach out to and trust all of your deepest secrets with and you seem to get along so well and then suddenly they're gone. At this point, being in any real position of trust or vulnerability in a deep relationship with anyone else, Platonic or not, is almost unthinkable. You always get hurt.

I thought it was interesting reading about the family stuff and how it might influence all of this. My mother left me when I was year old and I ended up spending most of my childhood raised by my grandparents. I kept telling myself that I never knew her and I don't care because she was just some stupid druggie, but I kind of wonder now if it did leave a mark somewhere...

I read the Platonic Touch article today and I was reminded of the 2nd person I kind of had romantic feelings about. He wasn't homophobic and really seemed to be able to talk about his feelings well. He wasn't afraid to be close to me. I really just wanted to curl up next to him and talk about stuff more than anything else. The whole "sexual relationships or bust" attitude toward emotional contact really is frustrating for me.

I do offer my gratitude to whoever posted these articles because they do seem to describe my inner landscape to a T.

I was watching this video on YouTube the other day that sums up how I feel about it in a nutshell pretty well.
_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNr3x1kVVEc

 

[monotonic]

I see myself as hetero, although I've had a sort of sidelines view of gay culture since many of the artists I follow are not shy about their sexuality. Having experienced the male libido directly, I'm not sure that being very sexually active is related to not wanting deeper relationships. I think a lot of sexual activity and shallow relationships could be explained by Gabor Mate's ideas on addiction and how socially disconnected people tend to seek out addictive activities. I think many men simply cannot have a deep relationships, even if they want to, because their social programming has kept them from learning how to act in a relationship. It's like asking 3rd graders how to do a calculus problem. They might try, but they won't get anywhere because it's just not possible until they have gone through the intermediate stages of learning and development. And that is prevented by shame and fear directed towards relationship-building activities.

 

[luke wilson]

First of all, I am not gay! Having got that out of the way, I should mention I have always had a long standing admiration for some men who show certain qualities. Qualities such as stoicism, courage, humor etc.. I have no problems staring at men and I notice athletic physical statures. All these is non-sexual though. Nothing can beat a woman's beauty but I cant connect as easily to women. In a strange way, I feel less pressure around guys and have been known to flatter... Not in a gay way though! With a woman, you always have to be on guard lest you be seen as an invading force, acting under the spell of impulse. There is no impulse with a guy as not motivated by sex. Also the admiration I have for some of these men runs deeper than what I have ever had for any woman. I suppose women appear somewhat alien to me and lack a certain type of aggression and fall to timidity, don't know, that's how I am interpreting the contrasting ways of my subjective way of seeing both sexes.

When I was young, I had lots of guy friends, way more than females and was that way until a couple of years ago. Now I only have 1 good guy friend and a few female friends, well, at least more than I've ever had at any point in my life. Accidentally, I've had what people may classify as 2 gay experiences with straight guys. Purely accidental, both innocent. Didn't think much of them. Didn't go into a homophobic rage nor did the other parties.

The first was one of my friends wanted to get into a line I was on, and to convince everyone, he said we were going out and kissed me... The other, well, I was very naive and won't go into details. Funny if anything.

I'm definitely attracted to a woman's beauty but also attracted towards the character of men in a non-sexual way, more like admiration, study and fascination. I am fascinated by how men are aggressive, want to take charge, act like they know stuff, make women laugh, entrap women in snares, act all confident etc.. There is also non sexual liking of the masculine physic. More like artistic curiosity.

A woman's physic is also fascinating, but more sexually, how it makes your body react in a sexual way.

This is not to say I am attracted to masculine females i.e. With male like characters. In all honesty, i have no idea what about a female i find attractive beyond sex. But i am averse to sex because it sets my body against me. Its a force pushing me and i don't know why, it feels invasive. I suppose this is part of the reason i am a virgin. Confusion.

I like the brotherhood you can have between guys and i haven't found anything equivalent between a guy and female that doesn't revolve around sex. Not to say i dislike sexual chemistry, i would just wish it to not feel invasive or psychedelic i.e. drugged up. Its not a girls fault for my body's attraction to the female physical form though i haven't learnt how to function with this attraction, rather as opposed to against it. As i said, despite the physical attractive force, mentally, at some level, it feels invasive, like a foreign force pushing to take control of my physical form. I suppose its a lack of understanding between my mind and the physics force that has rendered me not having experienced sex or a romantic relationship.

In short, i think i might be slightly messed up.

 

[lilyalic]

. I am fascinated by how men are aggressive, want to take charge, act like they know stuff, make women laugh, act all confident etc.. There is also non sexual liking of the masculine physic. More like artistic curiosity.

Do you wish you were more like this?
These qualities in men seem like they're to seduce and impress women, the ones you have noted anyway OSIT.

What I've been reading quite frequently in various books is that we all have masculine and feminine energy, and it's rare that it is balanced in us. So it's easily understood why we'd want to seek that sort of energy in the external environment.

In short, i think i might be slightly messed up.

I think most of us are

 

[luke wilson]

Uhmm, I don't have those qualities and if I did, I don't display them that way. Its not necessarily aimed at women, the particular guys I'm referring to are much older and display these characters in leadership or around others in their inter personal interactions or even simply in interaction with their own lives I.e. The approach they take to life.

 

[Beau]

Uhmm, I don't have those qualities and if I did, I don't display them that way.

Lilyalic was asking if you wished you had those qualities.