Creating a New World

[shijing]

Survival.

First and foremost is WATER. You've got to find a good source and a way to purify it.

2nd is shelter and warmth. There are many ways shelter can be done on a temporary basis. Fire comes next, not only for warmth and some comfort, but also for purifying water and cooking food.

3rd is food.

I think that focusing on the Maslow hierarchy is a good idea and may be worth spending some time on (besides the three categories above, the one other immediate need could potentially be first aid). Just the first of these, water, could be a real difficulty. I live in the American southwest, and in my area water is very hard to come by naturally ten months out of the year. I have thought about what to do in the case of infrastructure collapse, and one plan is to capture rain (if its during those two months a year) in the big garbage and recycling bins that are provided for us. I also have bottled water stored in the garage -- probably absorbing more and more phthalenes as time goes by, but in an emergency that won't be such a concern I suppose. It would be a real problem to find a long-term source of water in this area, though, and I'm not really sure what I would do once my short-term supply ran out (especially if I was sharing with neighbors, etc) and I didn't have access to transportation. If you were stuck out in the middle of a desert, instead of the woods, then this is a problem that you would have to figure out.

As an aside, besides Lost, Jericho is another show that comes to mind that is potentially instructive in this area. The very short synopsis is that there is a collapse of American infrastructure resulting from simultaneous detonation of nukes in key cities around the country, and people have to figure out how to survive when that infrastructure is gone. I'm going to try to watch The Trap as soon as I can too, to see what everyone is and will be discussing (it took me a bit to shift gears from the initial direction this thread was going yesterday when we were trying to brainstorm about what an STO society would be like on a large scale, to what it had morphed into this morning when I woke up, where a group of 200 people are stranded in a forest).

 

[RflctnOfU]

In the first stages, frustration will be abundant and tempers may flare up... It will be important to help each-other and keep everybody calm.

I agree. I think a common understanding that 'we are all in this together' would be important to have, to overcome potential self-importance

Kris

 

[thevenusian]

The Trap is fascinating.

I read this a long time ago and cannot cite the source, but it has stuck with me because it seems to be a truth borne out by my own observation. In an emergency people tend to fall into 3 basic types. One becomes incapacitated, shocked & unable to act. Another group are those who keep it together and try to do things to help everyone. A third group are those who try to use the situation to benefit from it for themselves.

So if survival is the order of the day, protection from the 3rd group is one of the top priorities.

 

[Beau]

All 3 episodes of The Trap are on Google Video. Here are the links:

F@k You Buddy

The Lonely Robot

We Will Force You To Be Free

 

[Laura]

The Trap is fascinating.

I read this a long time ago and cannot cite the source, but it has stuck with me because it seems to be a truth borne out by my own observation. In an emergency people tend to fall into 3 basic types. One becomes incapacitated, shocked & unable to act. Another group are those who keep it together and try to do things to help everyone. A third group are those who try to use the situation to benefit from it for themselves.

So if survival is the order of the day, protection from the 3rd group is one of the top priorities.

A most important aspect! And it was already mentioned that, hopefully, someone has knowledge of pathology. And what about the people who shut down and don't do anything, or don't want to do anything, or think they are prima donnas and don't have to do anything?

These are all things that have to be thought about and worked through carefully.

You see, my thought is kind of like that movie from way back when where they said "If you build it, they will come." Well, if we can imagine how a society is structured that is ready to be aligned with 4 D STO, then perhaps "it will come." And maybe, to some extent, once we get the principles worked out, some of us can begin living them to some extent.

I think this is something that we might discuss with the Cs, but I want us to do our homework first!

 

[Joe]

[quote author=andi]
laura, i feel that there's more to this question than you are actually saying

..maybe you want to share the background thinking behind the question

I say this because if i were to find a possible solution to such a question and

was given 1000 questions to ask to get the subject answered , then this

would be the last question i would ask ..but of course , by the time i reached

the 999 th question , then the last question wouldn't be neccesary any more

(the situation has most probably changed by the time you get there)

I think you have a pourpose behind this 'sunday question' , and i do not
intend to do any guess work.[/quote]

Why would you assume that. Why can't you just take the question at face value and answer the question to the best of your ability. Alternatively, if you don't feel like answering the question then refrain from adding "noise" to the thread.

[quote author=andi]
Please excuse me for not participating or deviationg from the original

question ...I simply cannot understand the question without the background that surrounds it ...
Thkx for your understanding.
[/quote]

Why do you need "background", when there is no reason to believe that there is any, other than that which you are imagining?

The question, even in a shortened form was

"Maybe we should start talking about what is wrong with various systems and what could be done to fix them, if anything. If they are wrong at the foundation, what to replace them with?"

I really can't understand your stance here, unless it is just to garner attention or to be obtuse or a distraction.

 

[shijing]

All 3 episodes of The Trap are on Google Video. Here are the links:

F@k You Buddy

The Lonely Robot

We Will Force You To Be Free

Thanks Heimdallr (and GotoGo who also posted the links) -- I appreciate you putting these up, and this will save us some time searching so that we can start watching!

 

[Laura]

I'm going to try to watch The Trap as soon as I can too, to see what everyone is and will be discussing (it took me a bit to shift gears from the initial direction this thread was going yesterday when we were trying to brainstorm about what an STO society would be like on a large scale, to what it had morphed into this morning when I woke up, where a group of 200 people are stranded in a forest).

Well, the reason I down-shifted was because I could see that people were getting all twisted up in philosophies and issues that they had no foundation to really understand and it was necessary to go back to the very basics of the evolution of the human instinctive substratum that Lobaczewski describes. So, how to extract timeless principles? Start at the beginning and re-imagine things, watch them build and grow, observe where it goes, and if it goes astray, trace it back to where the wrong turn was made. Then, in real life, you will have a better foundation.

For example, Dannybananny's statement: "we can eat vegetables.... no hunting" were well answered by Kel (I believe). It's so easy to get caught up in the "love and light" nonsense and lose sight of reality. And what did the Cs say? "People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future.""

Well, that's what this is an exercise in.

And don't forget this:

24 Sept 95

...Here comes a shocker for you... one day, in 4th density,
it will be your descendants mission to carry on the
tradition and assignment of seeding the 3rd density
universe, once you have the adequate knowledge!!!

Just a little bit of hope that such a thing is possible from an STO perspective.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Hi everyone:

I'm going to try to watch The Trap as soon as I can too, to see what everyone is and will be discussing (it took me a bit to shift gears from the initial direction this thread was going yesterday when we were trying to brainstorm about what an STO society would be like on a large scale, to what it had morphed into this morning when I woke up, where a group of 200 people are stranded in a forest).

I’m right there with you. I haven’t watched the videos yet, I will as soon as I can.

I just wanted to say that this thread has evolved into something I didn’t really expect. Also, I’m wondering what kind of world this is that these 200 people are trapped in. Is there an ‘outside world’? Is there still any technology? For example, do builders have tools? What do they build houses with? I’m assuming wood since we’re in a forest but are there a possibility of getting other supplies from the ‘outside’ world? Like nails, hammers, etc.. Or has the ‘outside’ world been destroyed and we have to start from SCRATCH?

There is so much to think about. It actually reminds me of this book I read, I wrote about it
here
This book also talked about this very idea..

In an emergency people tend to fall into 3 basic types. One becomes incapacitated, shocked & unable to act. Another group are those who keep it together and try to do things to help everyone. A third group are those who try to use the situation to benefit from it for themselves.

So we need food, water, shelter… but again, is there technology? What kind of medical equipment do we have for this group? Are there books? There are just so many things to consider…

 

[shijing]

Well, the reason I down-shifted was because I could see that people were getting all twisted up in philosophies and issues that they had no foundation to really understand and it was necessary to go back to the very basics of the evolution of the human instinctive substratum that Lobaczewski describes. So, how to extract timeless principles? Start at the beginning and re-imagine things, watch them build and grow, observe where it goes, and if it goes astray, trace it back to where the wrong turn was made. Then, in real life, you will have a better foundation.

That's fine, and I think it was probably a good move considering the massive scope of the question as we started out. I wasn't complaining about the change in the direction of the thread (in case that's how it came across), but you sounded a bit frustrated with some of the responses from forum members getting up to speed on the new direction of the thread, and I just wanted to mention my own difficulty in changing course suddenly (because of my time zone, it happened literally 'overnight' for me) as others might have had the same experience. I am glad for the new focus, because yesterday I wasn't quite sure if we were supposed to be thinking about how to do the best possible to move toward an STO group structure in current 3D reality, or if it was an exercise in figuring out what we would do if we suddenly found ourselves all suddenly dropped in 4D reality. Its clear now that the focus is on the former, and we will all benefit from learning how to "pay strict attention to objective reality right and left", since we are discouraged from learning this one lesson perhaps more than any other.

 

[RflctnOfU]

Hi everyone:

I'm going to try to watch The Trap as soon as I can too, to see what everyone is and will be discussing (it took me a bit to shift gears from the initial direction this thread was going yesterday when we were trying to brainstorm about what an STO society would be like on a large scale, to what it had morphed into this morning when I woke up, where a group of 200 people are stranded in a forest).

I’m right there with you. I haven’t watched the videos yet, I will as soon as I can.

I just wanted to say that this thread has evolved into something I didn’t really expect. Also, I’m wondering what kind of world this is that these 200 people are trapped in. Is there an ‘outside world’? Is there still any technology? For example, do builders have tools? What do they build houses with? I’m assuming wood since we’re in a forest but are there a possibility of getting other supplies from the ‘outside’ world? Like nails, hammers, etc.. Or has the ‘outside’ world been destroyed and we have to start from SCRATCH?

There is so much to think about. It actually reminds me of this book I read, I wrote about it
here
This book also talked about this very idea..

In an emergency people tend to fall into 3 basic types. One becomes incapacitated, shocked & unable to act. Another group are those who keep it together and try to do things to help everyone. A third group are those who try to use the situation to benefit from it for themselves.

So we need food, water, shelter… but again, is there technology? What kind of medical equipment do we have for this group? Are there books? There are just so many things to consider…

Hi Deedlet. I think the possibility of this situation arising in the world is quite high due to any number of factors: economic collapse - system comes crashing down and everyone is 'on their own'...cometary bombardment - system comes crashing down and everyone is on their own...french revolution of a global scale - system comes crashing down....In any of the scenarios I can envision leading towards the scenario we are working with, I imagine, at the very least, SOME technology will be available...though most likely of the mechanical variety - it might be a safe bet that electricity, if still around will be very sparse at best...so, maybe minimal technology/supplies?? What do y'all think?

Kris

 

[shijing]

Hi Deedlet. I think the possibility of this situation arising in the world is quite high due to any number of factors: economic collapse - system comes crashing down and everyone is 'on their own'...cometary bombardment - system comes crashing down and everyone is on their own...french revolution of a global scale - system comes crashing down....In any of the scenarios I can envision leading towards the scenario we are working with, I imagine, at the very least, SOME technology will be available...though most likely of the mechanical variety - it might be a safe bet that electricity, if still around will be very sparse at best...so, maybe minimal technology/supplies?? What do y'all think?

I think that's both realistic and a very good idea, just by virtue of planning for a worst-case scenario. If you plan for no electricity and then end up with it, so much the better, but if you plan for it and end up without it, then it remains a problem that still needs to be resolved.

I assume that one of the guiding assumptions in this exercise should be that we have to consider our own individual environments since that is where we would end up in the case of a sudden collapse unless we happened to be traveling. So its probably good to look around and try to see things in terms of raw materials -- assume no electricity, no running water, no gasoline (and therefore no food being delivered to stores, etc). But you may have shelter in the form of abandoned buildings or your own house, for example, depending on the situation. In the longer term, you may have good soil to work with, or you may not. Also remember, the more sparse the resource, the more competition there will be for it (either legitimate or underhanded).

 

[Approaching Infinity]

How will they organize themselves? Who does what? How is value attributed to what is done?

The Trap is a great view of what Lobaczewski called "schizoidal" views of human nature, and how they corrupt societies. Dabrowski called them "unilevel" because they ignore the higher parts of human nature. They are narrow, simplistic, and rigid. Those who create such philosophies merely project their own inner state onto the majority, e.g. Nash's schizoidia and paranoia. For psychopaths "it's a dog-eat-dog world!" According to such systems, humanity is ruled entirely by their aggressive biological urges of self-servitude. "What's in it for me?" And accordingly, because people are just selfish machines, they need to be controlled and told what to do. They are given "targets and incentives" to get them to contribute to society, but it is rotten to the core. In such a system there is no knowledge of types, no consideration for the individual needs and talents of its members.

I think we can learn a lot by looking at so-called primitive societies. The very fact that a small group of people must survive (should) immediately get rid of all concerns for possessions, social ascendancy, etc. If a house is needed, those who can work on it. It's that simple. No need for payment, because the needs of the group outweigh the needs of the individual, while providing for the individual. Everyone provides what they can, and is provided for, according to their need. Each person does what is in his or her natural ability to do, and none is judged as less important. However, there is a type of value system. For example, the shaman, provides for a different kind of need, often seen as the "highest" need. The spiritual well-being of the group is not necessarily "more important" than the physical survival. They complement each other, and are a different TYPE of value.

When a social situation is stripped down to its most basic level, I think people naturally tend to find their place within the structure. However, leaders are also a natural part of any group, and play an integral role. A prompt is needed from a natural leader before most people start utilizing their gifts. "Who here can cook?" Leaders are also necessary when dealing with immature people. What if the master builder says, "Well, I think I should be the first one to get a house!" How to deal with people who put their own needs ahead of the group?

And who makes a leader? These questions come down to knowledge of types. Some people are naturally poor leaders, e.g. psychopaths and authoritarians. Good leaders must have achieved a level of Being. They must have gone through experiences of growth (positive disintegrations and reintegrations). Here we need to make a "third principle" distinction between autocracy and democracy. Each has positive and negative aspects. On the one hand, majority rule can be a bad idea, because the majority can all hold a false belief (often motivated by selfishness, which is a product of their own level of Being). Oftentimes a leader can see something the majority cannot. On the other hand, a positive element of democracy is that the leaders work in the interests of the group. Negative autocracy has the leader working for his own gain. So right away, certain traits should be sought and exemplified: humility, altruism, fairness (i.e. to each according to need), openness.

On the subject of caste systems, I think Lobaczewski has the answer. Any system of organization needs to be evolutionary in nature. Some people never change and thus should never be allowed to have a position where they would be ill-suited (e.g. the authoritarian in leadership). Some do change. By the fruits of their own development, such individuals can be recognized by those who are further along in self-evolution.

 

[andi]

Perceval

Why do you need "background", when there is no reason to believe that there is any, other than that which you are imagining?

The question, even in a shortened form was

"Maybe we should start talking about what is wrong with various systems and what could be done to fix them, if anything. If they are wrong at the foundation, what to replace them with?"

I really can't understand your stance here, unless it is just to garner attention or to be obtuse or a distraction.

yes you are right , now that i have watched more carefully the development of the question ... I admit to my silliness ...
thkx for taking time and pointing it strait forward.

 

[Steve M.]

I think the first thing to assess is:
1. What do you have on hand?
2. What are the immediate needs?
3. Can what you have on hand fulfill the immediate needs until things can be organized/established better?
From there a group of people can establish what to do moving forward.

I think some examples would be, some people have some things already prepared in case of an emergency. For example my immediate family has back packs with enough food and water at (nearly) a moments notice to be comfortable for 7 days. Also there is a tent, some sleeping bags, knives, compasses, tissue/toilet paper, survival/medical kits. This isn't healthy food, but sustenance food. OK, so my family gives to said group what it has on hand. 7 days food from 4 people will likely comfort 28 people for a day or at around 3 meals per day (28*3) 84 people for immediate needs. The tent is a two room tent each side can hold 3 people comfortably.

What I'm getting at is that to start, you would basically want to take inventory. What does the group as a whole have? What does the group as a whole need? From there, knowing what goals are not met, but are needed, what of the goals are most important and can they be attained (by money, hunting, gathering..)? What goals are impossible - depending on the circumstances?

Of course all of that time there is the spectrum of:

In an emergency people tend to fall into 3 basic types. One becomes incapacitated, shocked & unable to act. Another group are those who keep it together and try to do things to help everyone. A third group are those who try to use the situation to benefit from it for themselves.

As has been pointed out. Then there is how to decipher the third type. Some people are going to be naturally reactionary. Look at the level of comfort and conditioning we live in, now drop everything and be stranded in a forest with 200 people, some very familiar and many others complete strangers. Don't forget to toss in the variables of everyone's mechanicality. Got to think outside your comfort zone.

Moving forward, I think general structures might go to Elderly/Children, mixed with a food prep and gathering quarters (Town Hall - until these can be broken down/seperated), then work toward a shelter for women in general, then a male quarters. From there the Universal picking is/would be fine. There would have to be real commitment on the part of everyone involved. It is easy to go into back biting and hard to sacrifice, for example what 'me' and 'mine' bring to the table, so there has to be absolute Trust. If it is all for one and one for all, while there will be sacrifice, there will also be reward. I think Patience, Trust and Sacrifice will be the main things to have going in, as well as determination, aim and will.

Those are my thoughts with how to approach it, day one, new earth - or little patch/community of it. Open for suggestions, or stepping aside and letting someone else offer there advice, of course.