Darwin's Black Box - Michael J. Behe and Intelligent Design

Garbage in, garbage out: if your theory is totally flawed and simplistic in its assumptions, and you build a system based on it, the results will obviously be garbage.
This is going to be an ongoing problem for us as we read the ideas of book writers, researchers, professionals, and professors who have accepted darwinism as true and who try to give explanations of their topic using darwinism. We get garbage out from them because they put in darwinian garbage.

I think we should cut out using the fake science keywords, like evolution and selfish gene, because the continued use of fake science keywords perpetuates the false ideas.

One of the points I took away from Edge of Evolution is that living organisms divided by kingdom, phylum, class could not have common descent, because their differences were too great to have resulted from random mutation and natural selection. For me, that means there has been a whole lot of creation occurring.

After accepting creation, the possibility is opened that common descent is not so reliable in terms of tracing backwards and in terms of understanding behavioral adaptations. It could be that the creators are reusing basic parts and modifying existing parts. It would be difficult to distinguish between new implants of new creations versus common descent of existing creations, if they reuse basic parts or use modified existing parts.
 
I think we should cut out using the fake science keywords, like evolution and selfish gene, because the continued use of fake science keywords perpetuates the false ideas.

I found myself using the "selfish gene" label just to express a link to this thread when describing what is really just STS behavior. I think it becomes a subtle influence on us. Laura quickly pointed it out and I had already been thinking about the how I should have realized how stupid it is to attribute selfishness to a gene.

Survival is perhaps the one aspect of this topic that needs to be defined. Does humanity deserve to be perpetuated if if cannot even care for it's own kind. In most species there is some element of altruism towards its fellow members, otherwise how can it really survive?

We have gone off on tangents talking about ideologies such as communism, socialism, nationalism etc. but squirrels don't spend quite so much time in these types of discussions. It is probably more like let's gather more nuts for the winter.🐿
 
I just want to recommend again to read “Darwinian Fairytales” by David Stove. I’m still in the middle of it, but one thing is clear: if DBB cured you from believing in Darwinist biological evolution, this book will cure you from Darwinist thinking about culture and humanity. I think this is especially important today where you might be tempted to go Darwin in response to the crazy leftists (yet another trap!). Darwinist thinking is also incredibly insidious when it comes to our own lives, goals and aspirations and our view of the “human condition”.

Stove himself isn’t a bleeding-heart liberal crying about brutal Darwinism at all; if anything, he’s more of a right-winger of the intelligent kind, which makes it all the more interesting. His style is also great and often hilarious. Mind you that he wrote that book in the 90ies, and he also published about toxic feminism back then and so really was ahead of his time.

The book has some lengths, but that’s only because he abuses and tortures Darwinian ideas with so much gusto that sometimes you want to cry out “stop it already! Can’t you see the thing is already dead!?” Not that Darwinism doesn’t deserve it! Heck, the chapter on selfish genes alone is worth the price for the book.

A great thing about the book is that Stove actually read all of Darwin’s works and those of his entourage, predecessors, later apologists and critics. He puts it all into context and often quotes Darwin directly, so there is no weaselling out of his conclusions. What becomes clear is that Darwin himself was very obscure and evasive and never bothered to answer to his critics, which have been numerous and devastating from the very beginning. It’s also just incredible how Darwin’s absolutely ridiculous and frankly totally dumb ideas could have gained so much traction – unless there was a materialist elite just waiting for someone to complete their dark minds and their programming, and/or hyperdimensional entities waiting to complete the programming.

Another thing that becomes totally clear when you read the book is that Darwinian ideas aren’t just any old pathological theory. They are pure psychopathy. There is no other way to put it.

The book really restored my faith and hope in humanity and rooted out quite some toxic Darwinian thinking still going on in my head. I’m sure you won’t regret getting this book!
You can find it online here:
Darwinian Fairytales
 
Interesting interview with Michael Cremo from back in 2012 (posted in 2018) whereby Darwin is a good part of the topic. Cremo has his sights on Human Devolution (his one book) based on an "Alternative to Darwin's Theory" while discussing Rupert Sheldrake et cetera. He looks at our materialist scientist dominating the scientific narrative (neo-Darwinists) who have "hijacked' science in education while dominating textbooks near completely.

I thought Cremo here was reflective as he himself works through what he knows and does not know. His focus is on more ancient peoples and consciousness residing outside in oppsotion to the materialists. He discusses how he thinks people were much more intuitive and connected with higher realms... He brings up that he was just about to visit Stonehenge that very day and is interested in sound waves - as he sees these repeated patterns in history.

I did not see this posted in another thread, yet it may have been:

MegalithomaniaUK
Published on Jan 28, 2018
Forbidden Archaeology - Michael Cremo Megalithomania Interview

 
Thanks guys for cutting out some pages that was off topic. This thread is so great we need to keep it on point. I have completed my work on the DBB and Edge of evolution. I will get cracking this week with Darwinian Fairytales. After Slogging through DBB i was still lost until i step on the Edge of Evolution,very great book much improve writing style by Behe. I love the information on Sick Eve (Sickle Cell) . I now have a deeper understanding on sickle cell and sickle cell traits. You guys have already covered so much on Evolution. The funeral for Darwin theory is finally over.
Below is a video by Behe giving an excellent overview on his book Edge of Evolution in 2007.This video will assist those like myself who had problem with comprehending fully Behe first book DBB. It will also help with our review of the EOV.
 
I thought Cremo here was reflective as he himself works through what he knows and does not know. His focus is on more ancient peoples and consciousness residing outside in oppsotion to the materialists. He discusses how he thinks people were much more intuitive and connected with higher realms... He brings up that he was just about to visit Stonehenge that very day and is interested in sound waves - as he sees these repeated patterns in history.

Fascinating! I can't help but think this guy would be quite interested in the C's material.
 
I finished reading Behe's new book "Darwin Devolves". As I wrote in my review:

My sympathy goes to Behe, for taking up the task to explain how impossible it is for Darwinian Evolution to account for biochemistry (the basic spark of life!) and for life itself. I can certainly get a glimpse of the amount of research he does to stay up to date and to be able to assess if there are holes in his arguments and to answer all the criticism he receives.

I now have read his three books and I'm still quite impressed by them. It's not surprising that a couple of decades after Darwin's Black Box, a valid explanation of how the flagellum came to be remains unanswered. The way he addressed the criticism to his blood coagulation example made me chuckle. I have come to grow frustrated with the reasoning that is accepted today as the norm in science: just remove the initial question and concentrate on minute details that avoid the crux of the matter. The less common sense, the better!

Behe's arguments of how "Darwin devolves" certainly gave me food for thought. It's interesting how research shows that breeding certain traits in dogs involves loss of functionality in genes. The examples Behe gives about humans are also very telling.

His discussion on mind should give everybody with a conscience the chills. It's sad how much science has divested itself from the truth and from reality itself.

I want to express my gratitude for Behe for explaining the topic of Intelligent Design with his feet so firm in the ground and for defending mind for those who appreciate the truth and are so fed-up with Darwinian schizoid declarations. As Dr. Andrew M. Lobaczewski wrote in "Political Ponerology (A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes)" regarding those behind schizoid declarations:

"Their tendency to see human reality in the doctrinaire and simplistic manner they consider “proper”, transforms their frequently good intentions into bad results. However, their ponerogenic role can take on macro-social proportions if their attitude toward human reality and their tendency to invent great doctrines are put to paper and duplicated in large editions...

If their activities consist of direct contact on a small social scale, their acquaintances easily perceive them to be eccentric, which limits their ponerogenic role. However, if they manage to hide their own personality behind the written word, their influence may poison the minds of society in a wide scale and for a long time...

Our inheritance from this period includes world-images, scientific traditions, and legal concepts flavored with the shoddy ingredients of a schizoidal apprehension of reality."

So, thank you, Behe. I hope everyone gets a chance to read this book. Behe is officially my favorite biochemistry teacher of all time!
***

Perhaps, it's worth expanding on how Darwinian evolution "devolves". For example, breeding this or that trait in dogs or horses, involves loss of functionality in genes. This is why he says that it "devolves". It might produce an interesting breed or an advantage, but it does so by breaking genes. If you want to account for how life came to be, you just have to look somewhere else, not Darwinian explanations for sure. Here's a quote of the book on this topic:

A few years ago the New York Times ran a story about some people who seemed immune to developing adult diabetes. Like me, they were old and overweight, but otherwise relatively healthy. After screening many thousands of people in Sweden, Finland, and Iceland, researchers discovered a strong statistical association with a mutant copy of a gene for a protein dubbed ZnT8. What did the beneficial mutation do at the crucial molecular level? “The mutation destroys a gene used by pancreas cells where insulin is made” (emphasis added).44 Another story the same year on the front page of the same paper told of a large study of people with a mutant gene named APOC3, who also had substantially lower cholesterol levels, shielding them from heart attacks: “The scientists found four mutations that destroyed the function of this gene” (emphasis added).45 Unsurprisingly, both stories emphasized the medical angle.

I should point out that neither of the analyses above studied actual human evolution—they concerned only contemporary cases. Nonetheless, they are both fine illustrations of the benefits of breaking genes.46 One case that does concern real, if rather humble, human evolution is that of a mutation in a gene involved with the production of earwax, thought to have arisen more than fifty thousand years ago.47 In case you didn’t know, earwax is categorized into two general types: wet (favored in warm climates) and dry (favored in cold climates). The mutation that results in dry earwax occurs in a gene dubbed ABCCII. It substitutes one amino-acid residue for another, which destroys the ability of the protein coded by the gene to work.48 Whether it’s diabetes, heart attacks, or the wrong kind of earwax, very often the quickest way for Darwinian evolution to mitigate a problem is to break something.

Next to people, we arguably are most interested in man’s best friend, since we’ve apparently made so much effort to shape and select dogs over the centuries. In his review in the New York Times of my second book (he didn’t like it), Richard Dawkins pointed to dog breeds as the premier example of the power of selection (albeit by humans, not nature) to shape animals as if they were so many lumps of plastic49 (Fig. 7.2). But, at the DNA level, what exactly are the mutations behind the wide variety of dogs?

Largely degradative. Although they are very hard to track down, here are at least some of the known genetic changes:50

Increased muscle mass in some breeds derives from degradation of a myostatin gene.51

Yellow coat color is due to loss-of-FCT of melanocortin 1 receptor; black coat to deletion of a glycine residue from β-defensin.52

Coat “furnishings” such as long or curly fur come from mutations likely damaging to three separate genes.53

Six different genes control much of the variation in the size of dogs.54 Half of them have likely degrading changes in the protein-coding region of the gene; the other three have tweaks in control regions that probably diminish the amount of protein made. All the mutant genes decrease the size of a dog.

Short muzzle is associated with mutations in the genes THBS2 and SMOC2, which probably lessen their
activity,55 and with a point mutation in BMP3 that likely damages the protein.56

White spotting results from small tweaks that decrease the activity of the MITF regulatory region.57

Short tails are associated with loss-of-FCT ["loss of function"] of the protein coded by a single copy of the mutated T gene.58 Two copies of the mutated gene are lethal to a dog before birth.

Even the lovable friendliness of dogs toward humans (compared to rather less friendly wolves) is associated with the disruption of genes GTF2I and GTF2IRD1, whose destruction in humans leads to outgoing personalities plus mental disability.59
.

In the final chapter, Behe touches on the subject of philosophy from a biochemist perspective. It was a good shot for not being a philosopher. His discussion on mind reveals how Darwinian thinking and the Neo version of same, tries to wipe out what Collingwood so much emphasized in "The Idea of History" and "Speculum Mentis".
 
I am late to join in on this thread, and I have not managed to read Darwin's Black Box just yet, but I recently finished "Darwin Devolves" - which I found to be VERY impressive.

Behe carefully and thoroughly dismembered each of the arguments and pieces of "evidence" presented by the darwinian/neo-Darwinian school of thought. He exposed the entire thing what it well and truly is - religious dogma in the disguise of scientific knowledge.

Until reading this book, I could not fully appreciate the extent to which neo-Darwinists jump through hoops of assumptions to come to their conclusions, and take the most fundamental "quantum leaps" in evolution for granted. Their theories can only do so much as to explain minor aspects of the way that things work and how they can change over time, but to NOTHING to explain how the thing came to be in the first place. Behe's example of the bacterial flagella, being infinitely complex in structure and function, can in no way be derived from "random mutation and natural selection", which evidence shows tends toward entropy rather than complexity.

The entirety of the neo-Darwininian framework is dependent on fundamental assumptions, which stem from the original assumptions and beliefs that Darwin himself made about the "creator". When broken down and examined with a magnifying glass, as Behe did exquisitely, it is clear that the foundations underpinning the materialist perspective are far more religious than scientific.

And unfortunately, it is sad to witness how any free-thinking scientist, who objectively examines the evidence and comes to similar conclusions as Behe, is viciously attacked and discredited.

I also greatly appreciate the fact that Behe is humble and honest enough not to claim to have the answers about what IS, and is simply pointing to what IS NOT.

If the materialists are wrong that "natural selection and random mutation" could create complex excosystems and lifeforms, which they categorically are, then it doesn't leave many other options. In fact, it seems clear to me atleast, that life MUST have been 'designed' (but in all fairness, Evolution 2.0 had me sold on that already). Although I am not sure what 'designed' actually means or what was/is its operating mechanism in this context.

Either way, I'm sold on the idea that reality and existence is MORE than simple atoms and molecules and chemical reactions and purely material. I felt this way all along, and the more knowledge acquired here over the years has solidified that, and now this debunking of Darwinian theory has been the "cherry on the top" so to speak.
 
If the materialists are wrong that "natural selection and random mutation" could create complex excosystems and lifeforms, which they categorically are, then it doesn't leave many other options. In fact, it seems clear to me atleast, that life MUST have been 'designed' (but in all fairness, Evolution 2.0 had me sold on that already). Although I am not sure what 'designed' actually means or what was/is its operating mechanism in this context.

This is what we attempted to figure out in this episode of The Truth Perspective:

Mind the Gaps: Locating the Intelligence in Evolution and Design

Neo-Darwinism is dead. But is intelligent design the answer? While most proponents of ID are neutral as to the source of the intelligence behind biological design, the vast majority seem to hold a traditional view of God as the creator of biological information. A few others, like Perry Marshall, locate the intelligence of design in the cells themselves. But are there other possibilities?

Today on the Truth Perspective we wade into the debate and propose a third option that incorporates the best aspects of both, without the problems each of these opposing options runs into. The answer may not be 'either/or' but rather 'both/and', with intelligence on both sides of the equation.

Edit: I'm not going to say that it's a 100% complete theory or anything, but I think what is discussed brings us much closer to understanding the nature and evolution of life and consciousness than any previous ideas.
 
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And unfortunately, it is sad to witness how any free-thinking scientist, who objectively examines the evidence and comes to similar conclusions as Behe, is viciously attacked and discredited.

Actually, at least recently, the attacks have given Behe the opportunity to respond specifically to the naysayers' objections. And by the sound of it he is enjoying himself blue! By the various criticisms the neo-Darwinists are giving (particularly to his new book) - and Behe's answers to them - you can just imagine how flummoxed they are because he has clearly thought through so much of it already, while they apparently are still stuck in their pseudo-science purgatory and holding on for dear ignorant life.

For those in the science community and, really, so many others - this 'debate' is really hot news. And it seems as though, through Behe's and others' efforts, real headway has been made in debunking the orthodoxy of materialist thinking.

See some of Behe's responses to the recent criticisms. Oh boy does he tear into them (and rightfully so!):



 
I found myself using the "selfish gene" label just to express a link to this thread when describing what is really just STS behavior. I think it becomes a subtle influence on us. Laura quickly pointed it out and I had already been thinking about the how I should have realized how stupid it is to attribute selfishness to a gene.

Speaking of which, I just finished reading Darwinian Fairytales, and it is clear that Dawkins shouldn't even qualify as a regular biologist. He wrote the 'Selfish Gene', said that genes weren't really selfish, purposeful or anything - it was just a sort of figure of speech, you know - then proceeded to discuss the matter throughout the whole book as if genes were really selfish. Cause if he hadn't, he would have had nothing to write about - he would have just been repeating what other neodarwinians had already said. In other words, he simply dressed up ND convention in sensational language to sell a bunch of books. Which makes him a charlatan - not a scientist. A charlatan who profits of a theory that just happens to be wrong, on top of that.

Now I've started 'Heretic', and here's a fun fact, which I think was mentioned in other books as well:

Molecular biologist Douglas Axe calculated that the odds of randomly getting a protein with a particular function was 1 in 10 to the power of 77. To get an idea of how unlikely this is, the number of atoms in all planet Earth is estimated to be 10 to the power of 50. Life forms require many functional proteins, not just one. But there simply hasn't been enough time since the beginning of Earth for it to randomly produce a single one of those functional protein. (see page 40)
 

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