Darwin's Black Box - Michael J. Behe and Intelligent Design

And as he puts it, this narrative "can exonerate its proponents from responsibility for their choices and actions." He even quotes Sam Harris admitting precisely this: "Did I consciously choose coffee over tea? No. The choice was made for me by events in my brain that I ... could not inspect or influence ... Losing a belief in free will has not made me fatalistic - in fact, it has increased my feelings of freedom. My hopes, fears, and neuroses seem less personal".

Yes, Jordan Peterson has made exactly that point - one of the observations I have most liked from him - that, while people complain about lack of meaning, the truth is that a meaningful life is harder, because it implies responsibility. If life has no meaning, the nothing matters, including what we do or neglect to do. But if life has meaning, then everything matters, and every act becomes important. And that, I believe, is one of the main reasons for the materialist/nihilistic/postmodernist view being so popular - because it is a license to 'party', i.e. do whatever we like, as hard and for as much as we like! That's what Harris is really saying above with 'losing free will has made me feel more free'.
 
It becomes a trap, however, for the younger generation who can be influenced by this sort of thing. They don't know any better and it could be a while before they figure it out.

Especially because that philosophy comes wrapped in the narrative of 'freedom', 'rights' and 'emancipation'. All that talk about duty, morality, God, all things spiritual, etc., 'is all part of an oppressive system', don't you know? :nuts:

Dawkins and Harris are charlatans. I don't believe they completely buy what they're trying to sell. I find it hard to believe, anyway.

Yeah, I belive at least Harris is married and has children. Would he be comfortable with the proposition that the people he loves the most, presumably his family, 'do not really exist', which is what he (and Dawkins) are really saying? Or with the idea that ultimately it doesn't matter whether they live long and happy lives or not? I doubt it. Once one understands this, it's hard to take them seriously.
 
Yeah, I belive at least Harris is married and has children. Would he be comfortable with the proposition that the people he loves the most, presumably his family, 'do not really exist', which is what he (and Dawkins) are really saying? Or with the idea that ultimately it doesn't matter whether they live long and happy lives or not? I doubt it. Once one understands this, it's hard to take them seriously.
For a psychopath, others -children included - don't exist for themselves, they only exist for his own needs, satisfactions. They are objects ( for satisfaction, like expressing domination on themhaving people to take care of them, etc). Objetcs i.e. material.
Thank you AI for bringing Kasturp to us, and to others for the reflections; it helps making things clearer, .
 
Some really interesting thoughts and observations above, thank you all.

I am still slowly making my way through this book. I think I may have mentioned before that I am not naturally inclined to grok science so I am having to read it quite slowly to be able to get my head around it. Besides, I am finding it so fascinating that I do not wish to read at my normal speed and only very superficially absorb it. I have been reading small sections in bed before going to sleep and the other night I was reading about cilium. I found it entirely fascinating; how something so small can be so intricate and yet so elegantly put together yet we are supposed to believe that it is all just due to random chance that it came into existence?! Just this little mechanism alone is so clearly here due to design! When I put the book down I had the urge to seek out Richard Dawkins and just laugh in his face. Not that I would but there you are :-)
 
Yeah, I belive at least Harris is married and has children. Would he be comfortable with the proposition that the people he loves the most, presumably his family, 'do not really exist', which is what he (and Dawkins) are really saying? Or with the idea that ultimately it doesn't matter whether they live long and happy lives or not? I doubt it. Once one understands this, it's hard to take them seriously.

Yeah, and Harris's philosophy is all over the place - sometimes he says we have free will, sometimes we are determined, sometimes he's a hardcore materialist, then he proclaims he's not a "stickler" to it and on and on it goes. Stove pointed out how Dawkins and his ilk constantly subtly shift their positions to gain the upper hand, never mind that the whole thing becomes completely contradictory.

The only thing that the New Atheists got right IMO, which in part explains their success, is their often quite funny bashing of the Old Testament. People resonate with that, because despite all (sometimes very creative and insightful!) Christian attempts to extract wisdom from the OT, it remains the bible of the psychopathic god Yahwe.
 
@Mandatory Intellectomy did it again: The Probability of Evolution -- Sott.net

:thup:

Jesus, I almost feel pity for the tortured Darwinian beast!

I wonder if it would be a good idea to make a YouTube video where a narrator reads one of those articles (maybe "Evolution - A Modern Fairytale") and have a slideshow with some pics, and maybe videos from other sources, to go with it? Ya know, "Watch: Mandatory Intellectomy DESTROYS Darwin!! (Funny)" :lol:

Just a thought.
 
@Mandatory Intellectomy did it again: The Probability of Evolution -- Sott.net

:thup:

Jesus, I almost feel pity for the tortured Darwinian beast!

I wonder if it would be a good idea to make a YouTube video where a narrator reads one of those articles (maybe "Evolution - A Modern Fairytale") and have a slideshow with some pics, and maybe videos from other sources, to go with it? Ya know, "Watch: Mandatory Intellectomy DESTROYS Darwin!! (Funny)" :lol:

Just a thought.

It was a bloodbath. Highly satisfying, too. I tell ya, the more I read about it, the more I think our whole world has been taken over by people stupider than a moron. I just can no longer look at some of those publicly touted persons declared to be experts without seeing their utter stupidity. How do they even manage to dress themselves?
 
Let me just put this out there. This guy, geneticist and hybrid expert Eugene McCarthy, put together the most comprehensive theory of evolution so far. In my mind it explains well all of the observations of nature, except for the origin of life itself, which must be intelligently designed in any case. He does not go into this. In short, hybridization and other stabilization processes are able to explain the growth of complexity in the natural world in and of themselves.
Of course, it does not preclude interventions by an intelligent operator, but it explains a hell of a lot more than Darwinism or ID ever possibly could. What he says is documented and is proven to work.
It's a long read, but I find it very accessible and informative even if you're just looking for a quick overview of what the evolutionary scientists believe these days. Enjoy!
 
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Truth is that without SOTT I am that person who cannot dress himself. How did I ever think that evolution produced an octopus or turned a caterpillar into a butterfly amongst others. How was I so blind?
A line in "Hostage to the Devil", said words to the effect that by denying evil exists one does not have to take responsibility for it. As Windmill Knight said above, a meaningful life implies responsibility.
 
By accident, and only in this universe. :lol:

I had a funny visual on that - evolutionists choosing their wardrobe and dressing themselves through a series of random accidents. :rotfl: It'd be funnier than a 3 year old that got into mums wardrobe and make up. I mean if evolutionists can dress themselves relatively intelligently with planning, how can their theory of evolution make sense to them?

Edited to add: Now I've also got Benny Hill theme music playing in my head :-D
 
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And as he puts it, this narrative "can exonerate its proponents from responsibility for their choices and actions." He even quotes Sam Harris admitting precisely this: "Did I consciously choose coffee over tea? No. The choice was made for me by events in my brain that I ... could not inspect or influence ... Losing a belief in free will has not made me fatalistic - in fact, it has increased my feelings of freedom. My hopes, fears, and neuroses seem less personal".

It's true, IMO, that there is no objective free will from the perspective of the ordinary human, in the same way that animals can be said to have no free will but merely run sets of biologically-wired programs. The only free will that humans have the potential for is to align themselves with, or make themselves 'available' to a more organized and conscious and objective source of information upon which they then act, or act as vehicles for. In this way we take our rightful place and play our part in the 'grand scheme of things', which obviously requires acceptance of the idea that there IS a 'grand scheme of things'. But you're not going to get a materialist/atheist to accept that since the idea of non-physical anything with any direct and important impact on human consciousness and Being is anathema to them.

Somehow I get the sense that some people have a very strange disconnect between their experience of the world and how they abstractly think about the world.

I don't think there's anything vague or mysterious about your sense here. By definition, there is a glaring disconnect between people's personal experiences and how they think about the world at large. The disconnect is in the fact that they invariably project their subjective inner landscape (with all its unconscious drives, needs, wants and beliefs) onto the world and cosmos (and 'everything') as if the two were one. "Atheism is the way to go for the whole world" says the materialist, because he 'believes' it is the way to go for him and can contrive all manner of supposedly 'objective' data to support his subjective belief. No thought or consideration is given to the very complex topic of the welfare of society at large with its millions of sometimes very different types of people, or the entire planet with its billions.

It's funny (in a not very humorous way) to see Harris admit that he has no idea why he does anything and that it must all resolve down to rational self-interest, although he obviously can't even be sure that it has anything to do with reason, and yet then proclaim that "science can tell us which values lead to human flourishing" and what is "morally good". So what is this "science" thing if not the product of the minds of some humans, the same humans who Harris admits have no idea why they do anything? Talk about hubris and a recipe for disaster! As JPB likes to say, it's amazing that human society has managed to remain stable and function, more or less, for so long without quickly falling into complete disorder and chaos.

Encouraged by the increasing violence, chaos and confusion on the planet and in human affairs, the supposed legitimacy of materialism and scientism is fast reaching its nadir or crisis point, when there will be no other option but accept the necessary reality of some kind of transcendent power and human beings unavoidable connection to it.
 
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Just a caveat here for all who have read Mandatory's article. The article does not prove that the increase in complexity couldn't have happened by accident, it only proves that it couldn't have happened by means of neodarwinian mechanisms. It does prove that the origin of life itself is most definitely not an accident.
As far as the increase in complexity goes, this could have happened by means of entirely different processes. Namely, stabilisation processes, which include hybridisation. See link from my comment above.
 
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