Defense against the psychopath

[Stellaria_graminea]

I'm reading up on evolution and Sir Alister Hardy, the guy who came up with the aquatic ape theory, is just now talking about how predators drive evolution. It's not so much the fittest in terms of strongest or whatever, but the ones who are able to develop strategies for avoiding being eaten. There's more to it than just that, but basically, that's a significant idea. I'll be writing about the ramifications of it in terms of humans soon.

That's a great idea, and a highly interesting point of view. I'm look forward to read it, this is a field where I have a lot of questions.

Many authors tell that the best thing to do with psychopaths, is to avoid them. Not all have the possibility to do that, what if the predator is one of your parents? Furthermore, what if there's genes for psychopathy in your family line, that appears here and there over the centuries. What would the selection pressure on the rest of the family members be?

There's a bit about the "arms race" between the predators and the rest of the humans in Evil Genes. The author refers to other researchers, evolutionary biologists. David Horrobin, which have mainly worked on fatty acids and schizophrenia, has written that schizophrenia and psychopathy are correlated at family level. The C's have mentioned that people with schizophrenia are failed shamans. Then, are psychopathy and shamanism correlated at family level?

(I have a great interest in this and get a bit excited, I would really like to know more about this.)

At least some of the predators seem to "choose" persons that are likely to see behind their mask as victims. (This is not necessarily conscious, if there's been coevolution between predator and prey for many, many generations there might be a lot of inherited instincts that increase the probability of survival.)

Also, these predators seem to prefer not to attack those that are useful as puppets in their attacks of prey. Those that, for example, easily believes in lies, and tell them to other people, forget their source, and say "people says that ..." so the lies are spread as much as possible.

I have wondered whether there are two main strategies among the rest of the humans, to avoid those predators: Some people might "choose" a strategy of not being attacked (then: be useful to the predators), and some might "choose" a strategy of discovering the predator (as soon as possible, or be eaten).

I don't think it is a good "strategy" at all to be useful to the predators and not discover them (it only seems like some people are doing this, hopefully it is mostly unconsciously). Furthermore, they will be attacked next time, when the preferred victims have disappeared, one way or the other.

To pretend that the psychopath is not discovered, however, that's extremely useful, that's something else. To control the expression on your face when dealing with them.

 

[Denis]

I apologize if this has already been answered before, but I am really eager to know this for sure. My questions are:

1. Are psychopaths born?
2. Is there any psychopath gene?
3. Is it hereditary?

 

[Laura]

I apologize if this has already been answered before, but I am really eager to know this for sure. My questions are:

1. Are psychopaths born?
2. Is there any psychopath gene?
3. Is it hereditary?

The evidence strongly indicates that it is a genetic thing. When you study genetics, you find that there usually isn't one single gene for anything, but a combination of genes produce different effects. The same seems to be true about psychopathy: it can be the result of several genetic factors in different combination. Obviously, if it is genetic, it is hereditary.

 

[Denis]

I apologize if this has already been answered before, but I am really eager to know this for sure. My questions are:

1. Are psychopaths born?
2. Is there any psychopath gene?
3. Is it hereditary?

The evidence strongly indicates that it is a genetic thing. When you study genetics, you find that there usually isn't one single gene for anything, but a combination of genes produce different effects. The same seems to be true about psychopathy: it can be the result of several genetic factors in different combination. Obviously, if it is genetic, it is hereditary.

Thank you Laura.

Can you provide me with the link where these studies were published? Because some people and a few geneticists think that when it comes to genetics, the common perception is that environmental influence can and does sway genetics, switching genes off and on, according to environmental feedback. Thus, genetic determinism(nature) and environmental influence(nurture) are actually more of a cyclical process, one feeding the other, with neither taking the primary role. One of the things that happens is the fact that correlation and causation are not so concrete when it comes to genetics. That in many cases, what could be deemed genetically determined is actually environmentally influenced genetics, reflecting the environment.

 

[Oxajil]

Because some people and a few geneticists think that when it comes to genetics, the common perception is that environmental influence can and does sway genetics, switching genes off and on, according to environmental feedback. Thus, genetic determinism(nature) and environmental influence(nurture) are actually more of a cyclical process, one feeding the other, with neither taking the primary role. One of the things that happens is the fact that correlation and causation are not so concrete when it comes to genetics. That in many cases, what could be deemed genetically determined is actually environmentally influenced genetics, reflecting the environment.

I don't think that's the case with psychopaths. It's kind of like being born without an arm, you can't really form a new arm by certain genes being turned on. You just don't have it. Just like psychopaths who are born with certain missing parts of the brain which disables them to be human so to speak.

From here:

Scientific studies show that psychopaths' brains work in very different ways to the brains of normal human beings. According to Robert Hare, the psychopath seems to interpret, process and use emotional information as if it was neutral information. The psychopath cannot extract emotional information from words as normal people do. Words like "murder, rape and death", provoke NO reaction in the mind/brain of a psychopath. They respond 'in a very superficial manner' to concepts that cause an emotional and distressing reaction in normal people.

 

[Denis]

Thank you very much Oxajil!

So this means they really ARE born this way (primary psychopaths that is). This is actually very scary!

 

[Laura]

Can you provide me with the link where these studies were published?

Go on amazon and enter the word "psychopathy" in the search on books. You will find a whole slew of them. The ones that give the best and most detailed info are the most expensive. One of them is over 400 bux! That's one reason why ordinary people don't really know what's going on - they price the information out of our range (as is the case with most academic books).

 

[Stellaria_graminea]

So this means they really ARE born this way (primary psychopaths that is). This is actually very scary!

Indeed.

Robert Hare have also written that born psychopaths does not bond with their parents / develop normal attachment during infancy.

I have seen one born psychopath growing up. Deviant from the start. Later on it was more hidden, especially when she became an adult.

All the other children I have known well did bond with their parents, especially their mother.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

The genetics is a tricky issue. A couple points, based on what I know about the current state of research: 1) there haven't been any genes found that definitely account for psychopathy, yet 2) it is 'highly heritable'. As Laura mentioned, researchers think it's probably a bunch of genes working together, so it's not as simple as eye color, or some dominant/semi-dominant gene expression. I don't really understand the genetics jargon, but here's a paragraph from Hare's most recent paper summarizing:

Taken together, the behavior genetic research on psychopathy fits with the structural research discussed previously. The results reported by Livesley et al. (1998) may be the most informative, given that the same latent psychopathy factor resulted when using either phenotypic or genotypic PD symptom data. Thus, consistent with the observations of Eley (1997), the behavioral genetic evidence suggests, “genetic factors might be acting as general influences” (i.e., general genes) in the manifestation of covarying psychopathic traits, with environmental factors influencing the form of specific psychopathic traits (pp. 90–91). At the same time, as discussed by Livesley (2005), lower-order specific residual genetic effects may also be important for understanding personality disorders such as psychopathy. For example, Larsson et al. (2007) found this type of residual genetic effect for the grandiose/manipulative scale of the YPI in girls.

 

[cubbex]

Not completely off topic, I was wanting to ask about personal privacy and if the level of research represented by the forum poses a potential threat to the investigation team and/or those in which they reveal. I had always been naturally revealing of myself... however, I have found that many take their personal privacy quite seriously.

I don't quite understand your question, could you clarify?

I think she's asking if personal privacy is important for the research team. She writes very weird, even for a non native.

 

[Laura]

So this means they really ARE born this way (primary psychopaths that is). This is actually very scary!

It does appear to be the case though you have to do a lot of reading and research and digging through the literature to find the bits and pieces of evidence. One of our researchers was actually working in a facility that did neurological research and reported that any proposals for research in the areas that would provide a definitive answer to this question is denied funding again and again and again. So those researchers who are pursuing this line have to sort of sneak it in under the radar. Some of the best material on the topic actually comes from forensic psychology and those workers dealing with criminals.

But there is the larger topic of un-detected, sub-criminal psychopathy which Hare and Babiak address in their book "Snakes in Suits." It seems that environment conditions the expression. If you are born in a poor, frustrating, or violent social class, and you are a psychopath, you are more likely to be the violent type, or the criminal type. (There is lots of violence that never leads to criminal charges.) If, on the other hand, you are born in a well-to-do family, with lots of care and attention, and you are a psychopath, you are more likely to be a more hidden type, expressing your violence in socially acceptable ways, like succeeding in a dog-eat-dog world though, certainly, you may destroy other people's lives in the process. See Martha Stout's book "The Sociopath Next Door".

Psychopaths naturally seek dominance over others whether it is covert or overt. Actually, most of them are covert thus the expression: Mask of Sanity. So they rise to positions of power in every field. That way, they enjoy secret delight at hurting others all the while everyone thinks they are so great and gives them adulation and praise.

 

[anart]

Psychopaths naturally seek dominance over others whether it is covert or overt. Actually, most of them are covert thus the expression: Mask of Sanity. So they rise to positions of power in every field. That way, they enjoy secret delight at hurting others all the while everyone thinks they are so great and gives them adulation and praise.

I realize most forum readers already understand this, but for the new readers, I'd like to expand on this a bit. Psychopaths don't rise to positions of power due to some extraordinary intelligence or ability - they do so because they are never, not for one millisecond, held back by internal doubt. They don't worry about the consequences of their actions on others, or even on themselves. If you can imagine going through life with zero internal doubt about whether anything you do or say hurts anyone or anything else, or whether it's wrong, or that you'll ever be punished for cutting corners or using others, then you can imagine how easy it is to 'rise to the top' for the psychopath. Add that to the fact that they are experts at co-opting the work, creativity and efforts of others, attributing this work to themselves in one way or another, and you have the recipe for rapid advancement, especially in a society that is adapted to psychopathic values as all Western societies are.

This, of course, eventually leads to the collapse of every business, country, association, or committee they end up 'leading' because they have no internal resources to be a real success - it is all shadow play, so everything around them is ultimately destroyed once left to their own devices, which does happen eventually as 'normal' people desert whatever the association is after either getting fed up with the abuse, or being driven out by other psychopaths. At the end of the cycle, you have pure destruction - witness America at this point in time and you'll see that psychopaths have driven the nation to the brink of internal destruction and are now pressing the gas pedal to drive it over that brink. It's always the same when pathological people are in positions of power because they wholly lack creativity (necessary to solve problems) compassion (necessary to manage people) and insight/foresight (necessary to avoid pitfalls and plan for the future). They are the ultimate parasite that destroys the host.

 

[Denis]

The genetics is a tricky issue. A couple points, based on what I know about the current state of research: 1) there haven't been any genes found that definitely account for psychopathy, yet 2) it is 'highly heritable'. As Laura mentioned, researchers think it's probably a bunch of genes working together, so it's not as simple as eye color, or some dominant/semi-dominant gene expression. I don't really understand the genetics jargon, but here's a paragraph from Hare's most recent paper summarizing:

Taken together, the behavior genetic research on psychopathy fits with the structural research discussed previously. The results reported by Livesley et al. (1998) may be the most informative, given that the same latent psychopathy factor resulted when using either phenotypic or genotypic PD symptom data. Thus, consistent with the observations of Eley (1997), the behavioral genetic evidence suggests, “genetic factors might be acting as general influences” (i.e., general genes) in the manifestation of covarying psychopathic traits, with environmental factors influencing the form of specific psychopathic traits (pp. 90–91). At the same time, as discussed by Livesley (2005), lower-order specific residual genetic effects may also be important for understanding personality disorders such as psychopathy. For example, Larsson et al. (2007) found this type of residual genetic effect for the grandiose/manipulative scale of the YPI in girls.

Thank you, Approaching Infinity.

Could you please provide me with the link to the website where this article has been posted/published? I am curious to read more on this subject.

 

[Don Diego]

Yup. For people brought up on the psychopathic religious programming that everyone has a soul and "all have sinned and come short of the glory of god", it's a tough idea to take onboard.

I'm reading up on evolution and Sir Alister Hardy, the guy who came up with the aquatic ape theory, is just now talking about how predators drive evolution. It's not so much the fittest in terms of strongest or whatever, but the ones who are able to develop strategies for avoiding being eaten. There's more to it than just that, but basically, that's a significant idea. I'll be writing about the ramifications of it in terms of humans soon.

Are you meaning we are designed to evolve this way, by interracting closely to them at all cost, and graduate by succeeding in recognize and "neutralize" them? Therefore, as Odysseus, sometimes be obliged to draw our broadsword and...

I'm asking this because these last weeks, several times, I've had a huge drive to get it over with a very very bad person who blackmailed me and my family, and sow misery around him.
It's really too private to get into details of the last three months while I've have been engaged by him for makeshift job and saw the daily damages among some others, trying to put a shield to protect the weakests, at my own surprise, managing to control (Paleodiet?Certainly!). June and July were rather easy (relatively of course),August has been awful, with THE paroxysm on the 15th, though it was a rather "good" day,astronomicaly speaking.
Day by day I discovered his real nature, again thanks to you ALL here for this knowledge of the topic of the topics, and day by day I was losing respect toward him and eventually lost my dicipline as he has been more and more devastating for some.
For sure I've grown...and fast! And discovered interesting things,of which I could write a bit more in my own tongue, as this "guy" seemed totally unable to see in 3D.That caused many troubles while I was making stairs,floors and wooden framework,so I could deeply analyse.Great experience...from this point of view.

To finish, along these days,I've many times had in my mind visions of Odysseus slaughtering the suitors and thinking that if we have been several century ago,I would have done the job,in total consciousness,emotionalessly,for the good of all

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Thank you, Approaching Infinity.

Could you please provide me with the link to the website where this article has been posted/published? I am curious to read more on this subject.

_http://hare.org/references/HareandNeumannARCP2008.pdf