Descriptions of the "afterlife"

Ina

Jedi
My younger daughter and I, every morning share our dreams. She dreams more often than me of deceased family members including pets. When I dream however, the communication seems serious, albeit selective, in the sense that I am given information that concerns my immediate environment. The only time I did not share my dream with her she broke her leg in a horse riding accident. That time I dreamt about my father who was ill in bed and my mother busy arguing about something. My father passed away in 2017, but my mom is still alive, That Sunday morning, she was not quite happy and said quite abruptly that she wanted to go see Malachite (the horse). After she left I told my husband the dream and added that maybe I should have asked her not to go. Couple of hours later we were at the hospital with her. In the dream my dad showed me the imminent injury, my mom was there to show me the cause. She is very vocal about how inappropriate is to keep the horse vis-a-vis our material situation. For me dreams are events with high potential of happening.
 

Zar

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
A while back our group watched this interview with Robert Shwartz about his two books "Your souls plan" and "Your soul's gift" and I thought I'd share. a decent amount of what he has written about jives with what's on this forum and the C's cosmology.


Some of this stuff is a little new agey though, but here is a simple summary.

- Shwartz talks about methods of people finding out what their pre-birth plans are; Mediums and channels (Shwartz uses this method), astrology, numerology, hypnotic regression (Shwartz also uses this method)
- Shwartz introduces himself and how he found his way to writing his books.

- He states that according to his sources the five main reasons why souls incarnate on 3rd density are;

Balancing Karma - Karma is a pretty broad topic but he specifies the exchange of experiences between souls, i.e. someone is born as a mother and raises a daughter and in the next life they reverse roles to balance out their unbalanced energies in relation to each other.
Healing - Souls with traumatized energies will plan to incarnate with specific problems, like blindness, to heal traumas from previous lifetimes.
Service to Others - Self explanatory.
Experiencing Contrast - Experiencing polar opposites for knowledge and understanding.
Rewriting false beliefs carried over from previous lives, usually a belief of unworthiness or powerlessness.

He says that only about 70% of the stuff that happens in life is planned, the other is free will. He refers to the Michael's system of channelling(not to be confused with archangel Michael) and says that planning is based upon soul age(5 categories).
Young souls incarnate to explore issues of survival, living through famine/drought or war torn countries and such
Young adult souls explore issues of power
Mature souls explore issues of emotions, relationships, psychology
Older souls explore the next level or learning.
These categories are based on Michael's methods(and I have no idea what that method is but moving on...)

Everyone has guides/guardians that will help if a persons faces a danger that was not planned/will terminate their life or hurt them(though free will is always there).

Personalities are created by the soul, and are a portion of the soul placed in a physical body, for the purpose of the lessons.
Plans can be revised if the lesson is too much for the personality.

The souls communicates through several ways.
Feelings of excitement or joy - usually a good indicator that you are on path
Intuitive sense that things are out of alignment or wrong
Essentially the soul gives nudges to let people know to get back on track of their plan, and when people ignore these nudges the reminders get stronger and stronger until you get hit by a cosmic 2 by 4.
Souls know that incarnating in this density creates an ego, and the ego is very useful for growth. Eventually the personality will surrender to the wisdom of the soul after a tug of war with the ego(doesn't always occur though)

Shwartz says that at this time the entire planet is going through an ascension into a higher vibration so it's an interesting time to incarnate.
Talks about multidimensional aspect of the soul
talks about soul groups - collection of souls who are at the same stage of evolution (vibration).
Free will ultimately determines how much of the potential of each soul is actualized.
And he then talks a bit about animals and how they are also part of a lesson plan with their perspective caretakers.

And that's the gist of it.
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
A while back our group watched this interview with Robert Shwartz about his two books "Your souls plan" and "Your soul's gift" and I thought I'd share. a decent amount of what he has written about jives with what's on this forum and the C's cosmology.


Some of this stuff is a little new agey though, but here is a simple summary.

- Shwartz talks about methods of people finding out what their pre-birth plans are; Mediums and channels (Shwartz uses this method), astrology, numerology, hypnotic regression (Shwartz also uses this method)
- Shwartz introduces himself and how he found his way to writing his books.

- He states that according to his sources the five main reasons why souls incarnate on 3rd density are;

Balancing Karma - Karma is a pretty broad topic but he specifies the exchange of experiences between souls, i.e. someone is born as a mother and raises a daughter and in the next life they reverse roles to balance out their unbalanced energies in relation to each other.
Healing - Souls with traumatized energies will plan to incarnate with specific problems, like blindness, to heal traumas from previous lifetimes.
Service to Others - Self explanatory.
Experiencing Contrast - Experiencing polar opposites for knowledge and understanding.
Rewriting false beliefs carried over from previous lives, usually a belief of unworthiness or powerlessness.

He says that only about 70% of the stuff that happens in life is planned, the other is free will. He refers to the Michael's system of channelling(not to be confused with archangel Michael) and says that planning is based upon soul age(5 categories).
Young souls incarnate to explore issues of survival, living through famine/drought or war torn countries and such
Young adult souls explore issues of power
Mature souls explore issues of emotions, relationships, psychology
Older souls explore the next level or learning.
These categories are based on Michael's methods(and I have no idea what that method is but moving on...)

Everyone has guides/guardians that will help if a persons faces a danger that was not planned/will terminate their life or hurt them(though free will is always there).

Personalities are created by the soul, and are a portion of the soul placed in a physical body, for the purpose of the lessons.
Plans can be revised if the lesson is too much for the personality.

The souls communicates through several ways.
Feelings of excitement or joy - usually a good indicator that you are on path
Intuitive sense that things are out of alignment or wrong
Essentially the soul gives nudges to let people know to get back on track of their plan, and when people ignore these nudges the reminders get stronger and stronger until you get hit by a cosmic 2 by 4.
Souls know that incarnating in this density creates an ego, and the ego is very useful for growth. Eventually the personality will surrender to the wisdom of the soul after a tug of war with the ego(doesn't always occur though)

Shwartz says that at this time the entire planet is going through an ascension into a higher vibration so it's an interesting time to incarnate.
Talks about multidimensional aspect of the soul
talks about soul groups - collection of souls who are at the same stage of evolution (vibration).
Free will ultimately determines how much of the potential of each soul is actualized.
And he then talks a bit about animals and how they are also part of a lesson plan with their perspective caretakers.

And that's the gist of it.
Many thanks Zar for posting this. I watched it and found it very inspiring and indeed close to some of the things the Cs have said.

I was inspired to do a little "soul searching" myself after watching this to straighten out some questions and priorities in my life. I wrote down a few questions, some more general like "what does STO mean for me in my current position in life" and some more specific. I did that in a meditative state where I felt connected to my body and deeper emotions. Then I observed what pops up and wrote down some of the things, with interesting results. Leaving out the more concrete questions and answers, some of the things that came up were

1. Do what needs to be done.
2. Focus on things where you bring something unique to the table.
3. "Till the soil", i.e. resolve issues with family, learn to get over your anxiety, learn how to take responsibility of your life and soul - so that you can be better at 1. and 2. in the future.

I remember Jordan Peterson recommending similar things - asking yourself certain questions and listening carefully, with your emotions turned on in a balanced, meditative way, and being prepared for answers you might not like or that push you beyond your current limitations.

All that being said, there were some things I didn't like about the video. First, as you said, there is a New Age flavor to it, with all that airy language of "powerful, holy souls" and all that. This tends to focus too much on the positive IMO. What's missing is the concept of Hell. I mean, there's plenty of hell here on earth, so why shouldn't there be on the higher planes? Including malevolent beings? We need that kind of knowledge of the Dark in order to protect ourselves and stay on track.

Second, at times he made it all sound too simplistic, as in geographical areas with lots of "old souls" and stuff. Or at the very end where he says whoever is watching this is probably so advanced that there shouldn't be any danger of the Ego interfering... yeah right. So I think the kind of information presented in the video can be dangerous if not balanced with a good, practical handle on the ways Evil manifests here on earth and all the other topics we discuss here. Otherwise, you might get sucked into an airy-fairy illusion that can interfere with your growth, or even open the doors to malevolent spirits that you are unprepared to deal with.
 

Jones

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
Essentially the soul gives nudges to let people know to get back on track of their plan, and when people ignore these nudges the reminders get stronger and stronger until you get hit by a cosmic 2 by 4.
:lol: Yeah that's pretty much what happened to me. Funny now, not so much at the time.
Lordy, me too! Thanks for the reminder that it will get funny - something to look forward too!
 
This thread has brought to me an immense amount of relief, it's information I should know but maybe I wasn't interpreting things before in the correct way. I can't find the quote to reference from here, but last night I asked out loud 'am I on the right path' before going to bed and woke this morning to ringing in my right ear which lasted for about 5 minutes after waking from interesting, but positive dreams. I don't know much about that stuff or if it's a related, or a completely separate subject, but I know I haven't experienced that before. Coincidences happen, but it seems like there's a bit more to it.
 

Gaby

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
This thread has brought to me an immense amount of relief, it's information I should know but maybe I wasn't interpreting things before in the correct way.
I think that is a common experience overall. During palliative care, I've witnessed a natural process of spiritual growth that is facilitated by the end of life stage for everybody involved. Whether it is suffering, acceptance, recapitulation, emotional processing and expressing what everybody values the most, there's an attitude adopted in people involved that makes all the suffering worthwhile. It is one of the most important and enriching experiences in life.

Likewise, it has been pretty disheartening to hear about those who close their minds to such experiences, whether it is a fragmented family or individual with no regard to the afterlife. I've heard of stories of people entering agonizing breathing and instead of receiving guidance, they receive denial from everybody involved. It can take very little, even a couple of phrases about the afterlife, to change the entire dynamic and leave a person at peace.

The other impactful experiences have been those who have lost loved ones unexpectedly and traumatically. At least there's a growing literature of the afterlife and guidance for family members which may facilitate the transition of confused souls.

I think the negative experiences are decisively facilitated by the materialistic grip that has overtaken this world. We can recall every ideology and ponerizing element that has contributed to this materialistic view, and there are also people whose reality seems to be strictly material. However, while reading the book "From Yahweh to Zion" by Laurent Guyénot, it became clear to me that in essence, the disregard for the afterlife and human spirit is satanic. That Yahweh really made it clear to its people that death of the body was akin to failure and losing Yahweh's protection, and what counted was to do materialistic things while alive. It's a complete disregard for the human soul and its growth. This thinking has permeated our society throughout thousands of years in myriads of ways. It's about time to let it go.
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
This thread has brought to me an immense amount of relief, it's information I should know but maybe I wasn't interpreting things before in the correct way. I can't find the quote to reference from here, but last night I asked out loud 'am I on the right path' before going to bed and woke this morning to ringing in my right ear which lasted for about 5 minutes after waking from interesting, but positive dreams. I don't know much about that stuff or if it's a related, or a completely separate subject, but I know I haven't experienced that before. Coincidences happen, but it seems like there's a bit more to it.
Yes, I had the same feeling of relief while reading these things. Also, having a glimpse of what is to come after death makes you appreciate life (now) even more, life feels more meaningful somehow.

I caught up with this thread a bit late, but now I’ve read ‘Life after Life’ and ‘When did you ever become less by dying’ and I enjoyed both immensely. A big thank to 3D Student for compiling this thread into a long text file, made reading so much faster!

Any recommendations of which book to read after those two (regarding the same subject)?
 

Cleo

Jedi Council Member
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
A: [...] 7th is the light you see at death of the body.

Q: (L) So, when you die and leave the body, do you go to seventh level?

A: See it.
Now I know what to say when asked what is the light we see at death.
So, this then could explain the light that near-death survivors see? In many of the near-death experience cases I've read about, the light is often indescribably bright but doesn't hurt the eyes to look at. Often reported as well is an indescribable feeling of calm, love and acceptance while bathed in the light.

I recently read a book called Coming Back to Life-The After-Effects of the Near-Death Experience by P.M.H Atwater and in Chapter 5 titled 'Brain Shift' she writes about the yellow hue of the bright light:

For those near-death survivors who could recall, the first color encountered during their experience was usually either yellow, or yellow-gold. Some described it as just plain gold. Others saw it as more of a yellow-white, gold-white, or radiant white. Invariably, survivors commented on how different that color or light seemed; bright, yet somehow easy on the eyes and not at all like the yellow-gold-white tones of earth. In checking through survivor files at the International Association for Near-Death Studies, I again noted the preponderance of people who first saw yellow or shades of yellow-white during the onset of their experience. Some continued to be surrounded by this color until revived. Although other colors or light came next, such as rose, blue, or green, the overwhelming majority spoke of yellow. It was also interesting to me that although yellow occurred at the onset, many times it changed; first becoming brighter and more mellow as it deepened into gold, and/or then becoming lighter and more radiant as it transformed into a glowing white.
 

3DStudent

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
A while back our group watched this interview with Robert Shwartz about his two books "Your souls plan" and "Your soul's gift" and I thought I'd share. a decent amount of what he has written about jives with what's on this forum and the C's cosmology.
Whoa, thanks for that! That was right up my alley. I've been wondering what I'm doing with my life and how I can know if I'm doing what I should be doing lately. I've thought that knowing your soul's plan was sort of cheating. I mean, isn't that what the "veil of forgetfullness" is for? So that it's still a challenge to not fully know and sort of hit the target all by yourself? I know there is past life regression and people seek those things, but not having it spoon-fed to you seems best. But maybe it's ok because you could just do something else other than your soul's plan, and you'd still have to make the efforts, or not.

There was an old thread about a book by Hans Decoz. I bought it but never read it. And I've not done anything with astrology. But he said you could simply ask or pray for an answer to your soul's purpose, which is reminiscent of JPB's method.

He says that only about 70% of the stuff that happens in life is planned, the other is free will.
Only 70% planned? I think that's quite good. Sometimes I think I've strayed farther than 70% of what I may have planned before birth.

Feelings of excitement or joy - usually a good indicator that you are on path
Intuitive sense that things are out of alignment or wrong
I think I know what the excitement or joy feeling is. JBP calls it being on the edge of order and chaos. For me it's music. And I think when things go wrong I get thought loops like, "What am I doing?" and, "Do you know who I am?"

Essentially the soul gives nudges to let people know to get back on track of their plan, and when people ignore these nudges the reminders get stronger and stronger until you get hit by a cosmic 2 by 4.
Good to know. I think right ear rings fall into that category too. And after the 2x4 comes the billboard? :shock:

Souls know that incarnating in this density creates an ego, and the ego is very useful for growth. Eventually the personality will surrender to the wisdom of the soul after a tug of war with the ego(doesn't always occur though)
So we're going to stop being stubborn and get on with our life's plan? There was a point where he said you could edit or decide against your soul's plan. Not sure if he meant while still in 5D or if you could change direction while in the body.


 
Also, having a glimpse of what is to come after death makes you appreciate life (now) even more, life feels more meaningful somehow.
This thread has provoked in me a genuine feeling of renewed purpose behind living today, despite the state and chaos of the world.

12. Spirits greatly respect time spent on earth. One says, “Prizes won here are won for eternity. The very density of the material in which you work makes the overcoming of it a finer conquest. . . . Experience on your planet is a unique opportunity and a privilege. . . . Make the best of every opportunity. A strenuous life on earth is of immense value.”

16. Many spirits had ambitious plans for self-improvement before they descended into flesh, but the density of earth’s matter, including their own dense brain, caused them to forget what they came for. Subject to material concepts, they lost their way. They died only to discover to their disappointment that they mostly failed to accomplish the goal they had set for themselves.

33. What about reincarnation? According to Mattson, the Lutheran theologian, “It’s an interesting fact that most persons grow faster spiritually while incarnate. The incarnate energy is denser. Your period of incarnation on the physical plane is thus a very important period of education. You can elect not to return, and many do, after they have achieved a certain spiritual development. But the physical plane is a ‘school’ for learning and development, and so most souls do return for a series of incarnations.”
I've always been curious about suicide, not in terms of committing it but the motivation behind it, and I always had the thought that those who choose to do so would 'rise' on the other side and be annoyed. But, it seems also possible that anyone can get steered off course throughout their lives and die a natural death and equally be in the same place emotionally on reflection.

Also, I wonder if the perspective on arrival is different if you truly have an agnostic or broader view before getting there, rather than a specific religious belief? Does the predisposition influence perception, at least initially? From what's been said, it seems so I think. It's a question that reminds me of the old joke about religions - any can be inserted and swapped around for the point of it - but for example, a Jew, a Buddhist and a Hindu all die and arrive in the afterlife at the same time and are shown around and given a tour. There's a big wall that goes to the horizon, and they ask 'what's that wall for?' and the guide says 'the Christians are on the other side, they think they're the only ones here'.
 

gnosisxsophia

Jedi Master
The soul communicates through several ways...

Intuitive sense that things are out of alignment or wrong.

...when people ignore these nudges the reminders get stronger and stronger until you get hit by a cosmic 2 by 4.

That certainly rings true, though is it only me or does anyone else get the impression they often get 'cosmically' whacked whether listening to their intuition or not...:umm:?


I'm reminded of the ref. in a session to Caesar (the savior formerly known as Jesus:-D) being in a kind of contemplative or meditative state where he receives and answers "prayers" etc. So that's maybe one function for certain people that hang out in 5D.

I also found Caesar's 'status' regularly entering my thoughts while reading the Betty books, particularly whenever the entity 'Imperator' was mentioned (probably something to do with the phrase 'ave imperator, morituri salutant' and all that I guess?) and as a result spent a lot of time thinking about 'his' statement in the 'C's session regarding not reincarnating until there was a 4D world. Also, like Nienna and others have mentioned previously, it seemed striking that much of the books' dialogue and many linear references to time, as well as physicality of sorts, sounded very un-5D (contemplative) and much more 'astral' - for want of a better word?


An intuition that made the below quote, attributed to Imperator, intriguing I thought?


...I was myself the recipient of influence from a spirit who had passed beyond the spheres of work into the higher heaven of contemplation. That Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. He is now arranging His plans for the gathering in of His people; for further revelation of Truth, as well as for the purging away of the years of error which have passed. He chooses His messengers in the spheres, and allows us to select our instruments. He is the head of this new endeavour.

Also this regarding progress of spirit on the other side of veil;


...the spirit, refined and purified, rises into the spheres of education. There further knowledge is instilled; the soul is refined and made fit to shake off still more of the material, and to undergo a further process of sublimation. And this continues until the material is entirely purged away, and the spirit is fitted to enter into the spheres of contemplation. Then we lose sight of it.

Something that when added to the excerpt Oxajil posted earlier - makes me ponder the density question all the more...??


Q: (L) When you are in 5th density, is part of your service to be a guide? Are there two kinds of beings on 5th: those who are there for the recycling, and those whose level it simply IS?

A: No. All are as one in timeless understanding of all there is.

As an aside, much of Stainton Moses work can also be found free online here - Spirit Teachings by Stainton Moses

Cheers

J
 

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
While making my way through Plato's Republic I came across an anecdoate that Plato relates to us through Socrates at the end, and it is a description of the afterlife, rewards and punishments proportionate to the virtues and sins, karma, the reincarnation of both humans and animals, and the source of incarnational amnesia.

I almost fell out of my chair when I read this. In my decade-long love of philosophy not once did I ever actually come across even a mention of this anecdote or story, in spite of the fact that I've heard countless times people mindlessly repeating Plato's tale of the Cave --- and both the afterlife and this cave analogy are from the same work!!! It just goes to show you how important is to read primary sources. Jee-zus!!

Well, I said, I will tell you a tale; not one of the tales which Odysseus
tells to the hero Alcinous, yet this too is a tale of a hero, Er the
son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth. He was slain in battle, and
ten days afterwards, when the bodies of the dead were taken up already
in a state of corruption, his body was found unaffected by decay,
and carried away home to be buried. And on the twelfth day, as [Er]
was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life and told them what
he had seen in the other world
. He said that when his soul left the
body he went on a journey with a great company, and that they came
to a mysterious place at which there were two openings in the earth;
they were near together, and over against them were two other openings
in the heaven above. In the intermediate space there were judges seated,
who commanded the just, after they had given judgment on them and
had bound their sentences in front of them, to ascend by the heavenly
way on the right hand; and in like manner the unjust were bidden by
them to descend by the lower way on the left hand; these also bore
the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on their backs.
He drew near,
and they told him that he was to be the messenger who would carry
the report of the other world to men, and they bade him hear and see
all that was to be heard and seen in that place. Then he beheld and
saw on one side the souls departing at either opening of heaven and
earth when sentence had been given on them; and at the two other openings
other souls, some ascending out of the earth dusty and worn with travel,
some descending out of heaven clean and bright. And arriving ever
and anon they seemed to have come from a long journey, and they went
forth with gladness into the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival;
and those who knew one another embraced and conversed, the souls which
came from earth curiously inquiring about the things above, and the
souls which came from heaven about the things beneath.
And they told
one another of what had happened by the way, those from below weeping
and sorrowing at the remembrance of the things which they had endured
and seen in their journey beneath the earth (now the journey lasted
a thousand years), while those from above were describing heavenly
delights and visions of inconceivable beauty. The Story, Glaucon,
would take too long to tell; but the sum was this: --He said that
for every wrong which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold;
or once in a hundred years --such being reckoned to be the length
of man's life, and the penalty being thus paid ten times in a thousand
years. If, for example, there were any who had been the cause of many
deaths, or had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or been guilty
of any other evil behaviour, for each and all of their offences they
received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of beneficence
and justice and holiness were in the same proportion. I need hardly
repeat what he said concerning young children dying almost as soon
as they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and parents, and of
murderers, there were retributions other and greater far which he
described. He mentioned that he was present when one of the spirits
asked another, 'Where is Ardiaeus the Great?' (Now this Ardiaeus lived
a thousand years before the time of Er: he had been the tyrant of
some city of Pamphylia, and had murdered his aged father and his elder
brother, and was said to have committed many other abominable crimes.)
The answer of the other spirit was: 'He comes not hither and will
never come. And this,' said he, 'was one of the dreadful sights which
we ourselves witnessed. We were at the mouth of the cavern, and, having
completed all our experiences, were about to reascend, when of a sudden
[the tyrant] Ardiaeus appeared and several others, most of whom were tyrants; and
there were also besides the tyrants private individuals who had been
great criminals: they were just, as they fancied, about to return
into the upper world, but the mouth, instead of admitting them, gave
a roar, whenever any of these incurable sinners or some one who had
not been sufficiently punished tried to ascend
; and then wild men
of fiery aspect, who were standing by and heard the sound, seized
and carried them off; and Ardiaeus and others they bound head and
foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed them with scourges,
and dragged them along the road at the side, carding them on thorns
like wool, and declaring to the passers-by what were their crimes,
and that they were being taken away to be cast into hell.' And of
all the many terrors which they had endured, he said that there was
none like the terror which each of them felt at that moment, lest
they should hear the voice; and when there was silence, one by one
they ascended with exceeding joy. These, said Er, were the penalties
and retributions, and there were blessings as great.

Now when the spirits which were in the meadow had tarried seven days,
on the eighth they were obliged to proceed on their journey, and,
on the fourth day after, he said that they came to a place where they
could see from above a line of light, straight as a column, extending
right through the whole heaven and through the earth, in colour resembling
the rainbow, only brighter and purer; another day's journey brought
them to the place, and there, in the midst of the light, they saw
the ends of the chains of heaven let down from above: for this light
is the belt of heaven, and holds together the circle of the universe,
like the under-girders of a trireme. From these ends is extended the
spindle of Necessity, on which all the revolutions turn
. The shaft
and hook of this spindle are made of steel, and the whorl is made
partly of steel and also partly of other materials. Now the whorl
is in form like the whorl used on earth; and the description of it
implied that there is one large hollow whorl which is quite scooped
out, and into this is fitted another lesser one, and another, and
another, and four others, making eight in all, like vessels which
fit into one another; the whorls show their edges on the upper side,
and on their lower side all together form one continuous whorl. This
is pierced by the spindle, which is driven home through the centre
of the eighth. The first and outermost whorl has the rim broadest,
and the seven inner whorls are narrower, in the following proportions
--the sixth is next to the first in size, the fourth next to the sixth;
then comes the eighth; the seventh is fifth, the fifth is sixth, the
third is seventh, last and eighth comes the second. The largest (of
fixed stars) is spangled, and the seventh (or sun) is brightest; the
eighth (or moon) coloured by the reflected light of the seventh; the
second and fifth (Saturn and Mercury) are in colour like one another,
and yellower than the preceding; the third (Venus) has the whitest
light; the fourth (Mars) is reddish; the sixth (Jupiter) is in whiteness
second. Now the whole spindle has the same motion; but, as the whole
revolves in one direction, the seven inner circles move slowly in
the other, and of these the swiftest is the eighth; next in swiftness
are the seventh, sixth, and fifth, which move together; third in swiftness
appeared to move according to the law of this reversed motion the
fourth; the third appeared fourth and the second fifth. The spindle
turns on the knees of Necessity
; and on the upper surface of each
circle is a siren, who goes round with them, hymning a single tone
or note. The eight together form one harmony; and round about, at
equal intervals, there is another band, three in number, each sitting
upon her throne: these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, who
are clothed in white robes and have chaplets upon their heads, Lachesis
and Clotho and Atropos, who accompany with their voices the harmony
of the sirens --Lachesis singing of the past, Clotho of the present,
Atropos of the future; Clotho from time to time assisting with a touch
of her right hand the revolution of the outer circle of the whorl
or spindle, and Atropos with her left hand touching and guiding the
inner ones, and Lachesis laying hold of either in turn, first with
one hand and then with the other.

When Er and the spirits arrived, their duty was to go at once to Lachesis;
but first of all there came a prophet who arranged them in order;
then he took from the knees of Lachesis lots and samples of lives,
and having mounted a high pulpit, spoke as follows: 'Hear the word
of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. Mortal souls, behold a new
cycle of life and mortality. Your genius will not be allotted to you,
but you choose your genius; and let him who draws the first lot have
the first choice, and the life which he chooses shall be his destiny.
Virtue is free, and as a man honours or dishonours her he will have
more or less of her; the responsibility is with the chooser --God
is justified.'
When the Interpreter had thus spoken he scattered lots
indifferently among them all, and each of them took up the lot which
fell near him, all but Er himself (he was not allowed), and each as
he took his lot perceived the number which he had obtained. Then the
Interpreter placed on the ground before them the samples of lives;
and there were many more lives than the souls present, and they were
of all sorts. There were lives of every animal and of man in every
condition.
And there were tyrannies among them, some lasting out the
tyrant's life, others which broke off in the middle and came to an
end in poverty and exile and beggary; and there were lives of famous
men, some who were famous for their form and beauty as well as for
their strength and success in games, or, again, for their birth and
the qualities of their ancestors; and some who were the reverse of
famous for the opposite qualities. And of women likewise; there was
not, however, any definite character them, because the soul, when
choosing a new life, must of necessity become different. But there
was every other quality, and the all mingled with one another, and
also with elements of wealth and poverty, and disease and health;
and there were mean states also. And here, my dear Glaucon, is the
supreme peril of our human state; and therefore the utmost care should
be taken. Let each one of us leave every other kind of knowledge and
seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure he may be able to
learn and may find some one who will make him able to learn and discern
between good and evil, and so to choose always and everywhere the
better life as he has opportunity.
He should consider the bearing
of all these things which have been mentioned severally and collectively
upon virtue; he should know what the effect of beauty is when combined
with poverty or wealth in a particular soul, and what are the good
and evil consequences of noble and humble birth, of private and public
station, of strength and weakness, of cleverness and dullness, and
of all the soul, and the operation of them when conjoined; he will
then look at the nature of the soul, and from the consideration of
all these qualities he will be able to determine which is the better
and which is the worse; and so he will choose, giving the name of
evil to the life which will make his soul more unjust, and good to
the life which will make his soul more just; all else he will disregard.
For we have seen and know that this is the best choice both in life
and after death. A man must take with him into the world below an
adamantine faith in truth and right, that there too he may be undazzled
by the desire of wealth or the other allurements of evil, lest, coming
upon tyrannies and similar villainies, he do irremediable wrongs to
others and suffer yet worse himself; but let him know how to choose
the mean and avoid the extremes on either side, as far as possible,
not only in this life but in all that which is to come. For this is
the way of happiness.


And according to the report of the messenger from the other world
this was what the prophet said at the time: 'Even for the last comer,
if he chooses wisely and will live diligently, there is appointed
a happy and not undesirable existence. Let not him who chooses first
be careless, and let not the last despair.' And when he had spoken,
he who had the first choice came forward and in a moment chose the
greatest tyranny; his mind having been darkened by folly and sensuality,
he had not thought out the whole matter before he chose, and did not
at first sight perceive that he was fated, among other evils, to devour
his own children. But when he had time to reflect, and saw what was
in the lot, he began to beat his breast and lament over his choice,
forgetting the proclamation of the prophet; for, instead of throwing
the blame of his misfortune on himself, he accused chance and the
gods, and everything rather than himself. Now he was one of those
who came from heaven, and in a former life had dwelt in a well-ordered
State, but his virtue was a matter of habit only, and he had no philosophy.
And it was true of others who were similarly overtaken, that the greater
number of them came from heaven and therefore they had never been
schooled by trial, whereas the pilgrims who came from earth, having
themselves suffered and seen others suffer, were not in a hurry to
choose. And owing to this inexperience of theirs, and also because
the lot was a chance, many of the souls exchanged a good destiny for
an evil or an evil for a good. For if a man had always on his arrival
in this world dedicated himself from the first to sound philosophy,
and had been moderately fortunate in the number of the lot, he might,
as the messenger reported, be happy here, and also his journey to
another life and return to this, instead of being rough and underground,
would be smooth and heavenly.
Most curious, he said, was the spectacle
--sad and laughable and strange; for the choice of the souls was in
most cases based on their experience of a previous life. There he
saw the soul which had once been Orpheus choosing the life of a swan
out of enmity to the race of women, hating to be born of a woman because
they had been his murderers; he beheld also the soul of Thamyras choosing
the life of a nightingale; birds, on the other hand, like the swan
and other musicians, wanting to be men. The soul which obtained the
twentieth lot chose the life of a lion, and this was the soul of Ajax
the son of Telamon, who would not be a man, remembering the injustice
which was done him the judgment about the arms. The next was Agamemnon,
who took the life of an eagle, because, like Ajax, he hated human
nature by reason of his sufferings. About the middle came the lot
of Atalanta; she, seeing the great fame of an athlete, was unable
to resist the temptation: and after her there followed the soul of
Epeus the son of Panopeus passing into the nature of a woman cunning
in the arts; and far away among the last who chose, the soul of the
jester Thersites was putting on the form of a monkey. There came also
the soul of Odysseus having yet to make a choice, and his lot happened
to be the last of them all. Now the recollection of former tolls had
disenchanted him of ambition, and he went about for a considerable
time in search of the life of a private man who had no cares
; he had
some difficulty in finding this, which was lying about and had been
neglected by everybody else; and when he saw it, he said that he would
have done the had his lot been first instead of last, and that he
was delighted to have it. And not only did men pass into animals,
but I must also mention that there were animals tame and wild who
changed into one another and into corresponding human natures --the
good into the gentle and the evil into the savage, in all sorts of
combinations.


All the souls had now chosen their lives, and they went in the order
of their choice to Lachesis, who sent with them the genius whom they
had severally chosen, to be the guardian of their lives and the fulfiller
of the choice: this genius led the souls first to Clotho, and drew
them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her hand, thus
ratifying the destiny of each; and then, when they were fastened to
this, carried them to Atropos, who spun the threads and made them
irreversible, whence without turning round they passed beneath the
throne of Necessity; and when they had all passed, they marched on
in a scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness
, which was a barren
waste destitute of trees and verdure; and then towards evening they
encamped by the river of Unmindfulness, whose water no vessel can
hold; of this they were all obliged to drink a certain quantity, and
those who were not saved by wisdom drank more than was necessary;
and each one as he drank forgot all things. Now after they had gone
to rest, about the middle of the night there was a thunderstorm and
earthquake, and then in an instant they were driven upwards in all
manner of ways to their birth, like stars shooting. He himself was
hindered from drinking the water. But in what manner or by what means
he returned to the body he could not say; only, in the morning, awaking
suddenly, he found himself lying on the pyre.

And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and
will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass
safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be defiled.
Wherefore my counsel is that we hold fast ever to the heavenly way
and follow after justice and virtue always, considering that the soul
is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and every sort of
evil. Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the gods, both
while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the games who go
round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it shall be well
with us both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a thousand years
which we have been describing.
 

itellsya

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Thanks for sharing Whitecoast! It's fascinating how much of that compares to more modern material on the afterlife, pre-birth and what not.

I recently listened to a few podcasts with Robert Schwartz ("Your souls life plan" posted by Zar above) where he discusses the idea that our lives are pre-planned but we have '30% free will'. With that in mind, i found the following parts interesting:

Then the Interpreter placed on the ground before them the samples of lives;
and there were many more lives than the souls present, and they were
of all sorts. There were lives of every animal and of man in every
condition.

[...]

Let each one of us leave every other kind of knowledge and
seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure he may be able to
learn and may find some one who will make him
able to learn and discern
between good and evil, and so to choose
always and everywhere the
better life as he has opportunity.
If i'm understanding it correctly, this would correlate with what he's saying - even if his perspective of evil/sts/entropy seems to be lacking. Perhaps, oftentimes, there is a life plan but, as other sources have also stated, through gaining knowledge and applying discernment we're able to extricate ourselves from the law of accident/fate by the choices we make.
 
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