Different densities, help please

Omega said:
So @ Bud, you see, if awareness / consciousness is the overlay we were talking about in earlier post, encompassing the minerals as a whole, how does that consciousness unit transfers to 2nd D into a specific body ?

I don't know that any "consciousness unit" transfers across 2D into 3D. Why couldn't a "consciousness unit" slowly develop as a consequence of the development of a new information processing system we call a body? Then if there is a soul - group or individuated, a possible goal would be to learn to somehow connect one's existing consciousness with it.

...and from the perspective of human evolution (reincarnation), I have no problem conjecturing that the "consciousness unit" is brand new for each body, but a soul (as a sort of compacted unit of spiritual knowledge) may be what has transferred.

Not that any of the above necessarily makes any sense to anyone else or is in any way representative of reality. :D
 
We used to have a rubber plant. We used to talk to and about this plant quite a lot, even called "him" Rubbers. He lived an awfully long time and was extremely healthy, but died quite soon after my mother passed. However, I don't exactly have green fingers, but all her plants lived long and prospered!
This example would indicate that talking to (positive stimulation) plants can help develop their consciousness. Or rather that they indeed have a form of consciousness. As you know, every gardener will tell you they thrive on being spoken to.
Of course, you would have to experiment and compare plants that were equally well attended to physically, but only one group would receive audio stimulation (classical music, prayer, etc.).
Actually, I believe such experiments have been carried out. I'll be checking that out in the near future.
 
One section from Tom Stonier's Beyond Information might provide a good way to understand First density via his idea of "proto-intelligence":

Proto-Intelligence

If the phenomenon of intelligence is to be viewed as a spectrum of phenomena, what is the underlying mechanism which created such a phenomenon in the first place? What lies at the base of the phenomenon of intelligence? All living systems including the subsystems of advanced biosystems exhibit some level of intelligence as defined in the present work. The question then must be asked: May inorganic, non-living systems exhibit intelligence?

Leaving aside “machine intelligence”, which will preoccupy us in later chapters, let us consider the case of a crystal of manganese dioxide dropped into a solution of potassium permanganate. The crystal, instead of dissolving, becomes the focus of an autocatalytic reaction which converts the solution of potassium permanganate into manganese dioxide.

The ability of a crystal of manganese dioxide to convert its external environment into more of itself demonstrates that an inorganic system may reproduce. As such the crustal has fulfilled one criterion for ascertaining intelligent behavior – the enhancement of reproducibility.

A seed crystal of salt dropped into a supersaturated solution of salt or a seed crystal of silicon dropped into a cooling mass of molten silicon will also trigger off reactions which result in the precipitation of salt crystals, or the growth of the seed crystal into a large crystal of silicon. Again, the criterion of reproducibility has been fulfilled. Does this mean that crystals possess intelligence? We are now at the borderline of our spectrum. We need to make a decision as to how we delimit our spectrum. When we define the “visible” spectrum of light, we define it in terms of light being visible to the human eye. We exclude portions of the ultra-violet – which happen to be visible to bees, for example.

Similarly, our definition of intelligence will exclude individual crystals. Instead, we will consider them to be proto-intelligent. That is, crystals, being highly organized entities which possess considerable information and engage in substantial information processing, lack true intelligence: Under usual circumstances, they fail to duplicate themselves. When they do reproduce, they are engaging in intelligent behavior. However, once the reaction is completed, the crystals return to their wholly inanimate state, totally subjected to the vagaries of fate which their environment may impose on them. Nevertheless, if only briefly, crystals may exhibit “flashes of intelligent behavior”. For this reason we invoke the concept of proto-intelligence.

The concept of proto-intelligence is important: It is important in its own right. It is important to any analysis of intelligence. And it is a prerequisite for the analysis of machine intelligence.

Proto-intelligence may be defined as phenomena which involve aspects of intelligent behavior but exist only temporarily, or if permanently, only partially satisfy the criteria for intelligence. For example, memory is an integral part of the learning process. Many non-living systems exhibit the property of memory: “Memory metals” and other materials which “remember” previous shapes and processes, a disturbed pendulum returning to its resonant frequency, many computer systems – both hardware and software – all of these exhibit various levels of memory and as such, constitute a form of proto-intelligence.

Still more primitive in organization involving fewer components, are molecules, atoms and subatomic particles. As Haefner (1991) has pointed out, these entities manage to maintain their identity – a proton behaves as a proton, an electron as an electron and a hydrogen atom as a hydrogen atom. It is the ability of these entities to maintain their physical integrity, to engage both in information exchanges and in information processing, which implies that they are stable information systems which exhibit aspects of intelligence. In the present work, their inability to reproduce themselves, unlike biological systems, puts these inanimate entities into the lower forms of intelligence – that is, proto-intelligent systems.

Reproduction in biological systems is based on the transmission of information across generations via a stable genetic material (DNA or RNA). The selection of new characteristics (mutations) to adapt the system better to the environment involves a learning process. That is, just as a rat learns its way through a maze by trial and error, then remembers the successful moves, so does a species learn by the trial and error of random mutations, then remembers the successful ones by incorporating this beneficial information into its genome (DNA or RNA) for future use.

Therefore, the ability of a system to reproduce itself, or be reproduced externally, is a vital component of intelligence because without reproduction, the system has virtually no chance to evolve. All evolution involves a learning process, and the capacity to learn may be as useful a guide as any for ascertaining whether a system exhibits true (rather than proto-) intelligence.

The concept of proto-intelligence must be an integral part of the concept of the evolution of intelligence. The evolution of the lung in animals living on dry land was preceded and derived from the evolution of the swim bladder in fish. The evolution of bones, important for survival on land, was preceded by the evolution of bony fish. Fish don’t need hard bones to function well in water. Sharks, which possess only relatively soft cartilage, have fared very well for hundreds of millions of years swimming around in the oceans. Fish moving upstream into fresh water, however, faced an uncertain supply of vital calcium. What more logical solution than to create a calcium “bank” by depositing calcium compounds among the cartilage? Thus the cartilaginous mechanical structures may be considered as “proto-bones”; similarly, a swim bladder can be considered to be a “proto-lung”, and certain fins of fishes as “proto-legs”. The move from an aquatic to a terrestrial environment is a most remarkable step upward in the evolution of life on this planet, involving not only the vertebrates but the invertebrates (insects were probably the first land animals), plants and the earliest of all invaders, micro-organisms.

We recognize that there is a difference between animals that spend their life on land, and those that spend their life in water. However, there are numerous amphibians which represent an intermediate state. In a like manner, the evolution of information systems into intelligent systems probably involves intermediate stages. It is here that the concept of proto-intelligence becomes useful. We look for phenomena that, in themselves, do not satisfy our criteria for intelligence, but which are related. We would not look to the eye of a fish to evolve into a lung, nor its blood vessels to become bones; instead we look to its swim bladder and its cartilage. Similarly, we look to information systems exhibiting limited aspects of intelligence as constituting the phenomena of proto-intelligence form which intelligent systems evolved.

The above discussion has identified several phenomena which may be classed as proto-intelligent:

1. Survivability, as demonstrated by the stability of atomic particles.
2. Reproducibility, as exemplified by the growth of a crystal.
3. Memory.

Other phenomena will be identified as we delve more deeply into the subject. However, one form of proto-intelligence which is so basic as to make impossible any informed discussion of intelligence without it, is feedback. All intelligent systems process information along at least one major feedback loop.

Feedback loops have their antecedents in the form of regular cycles which, under certain circumstances may represent a form of proto-intelligence. Such cycles may be observed in the organization of an atom, a swinging pendulum, a resonating electronic system, a planet swinging around a star, the stability of Benard cells, cyclic chemical reactions – that is, any cyclic phenomenon with a regular periodicity involving two counteractive forces: centrifugal/centripetal, electrostatic/electromagnetic, oxidative/reductive, etc. Like a gyroscope spinning, regular oscillations tend to maintain the stability of the system even when the environment changes. It represents a major mechanism in the survivability of a system. In some proto-intelligent systems, the oscillations dampen down in time and finally disappear. The system collapses. In others, such as atoms, the organization is maintained indefinitely by a complex interaction of internal forces. In contrast, in biosystems, internal rhythms are maintained by the controlled inputs of an external source of energy. Plants do it by utilizing sunshine, animals by eating plants or other animals. Similarly, mechanical or electronic systems function by having available a source of energy.

A grandfather clock is a prime example of a piece of machinery which constitutes a proto-intelligent system. It is a goal-oriented object. Its goal (imposed by its human designer) is to move the hands of the clock in small, even exact, and continuous steps. It processes information in that the time it takes for a weight to descend is converted into the movement of the hands of the clock. It achieves this goal by regulating the input of energy by means of mechanical gears and levers and a steadily swinging pendulum, so as to achieve a constant output. However, the clock contains no system which compensates for changes in the environment. The steady, gravitational pull of the weight, moves the steady, ticking machinery. If the weight becomes insufficient, as it does when it reaches the end of the chain, the clock stops. If the weight becomes too heavy, the clock tries to run faster and may break. An increase in temperature causes the pendulum to become longer, and the clock slows down. The reverse happens if the outside temperature cools.

The grandfather clock exhibits aspects of intelligence: It is goal-oriented. It processes information. It regulates (in limited fashion) the throughput of energy. It converts energy into information. And its pendulum exhibits memory (in so far as it will return to its basic frequency of oscillation if disturbed). However, it is totally dependent on the right combination of externally imposed factors in order to achieve its goal. And it cannot learn. For this reason one may class a grandfather clock as a proto-intelligent device.

The grandfather clock exemplifies a system which has many of the attributes of intelligence, yet it should be classed as a proto-intelligent system. When we examine machine intelligence in later chapters, we will see that the divide becomes increasingly blurred. The problem is a familiar one to biologists trying to define taxa: “When is a variant a new species?” – a problem which has its counterpart at all levels of classification.

For example, in vertebrate taxonomy, the class “mammals” differs from the class “reptiles” from which it evolved, in that mammals in general, possess hair, give rise to live young and are warm-blooded, while reptiles have scales, lay eggs and are cold-blooded. However, the armadillo, a mammal, has scales; the duck-billed platypus, another mammal, lays eggs, while certain snakes and other reptiles give birth to live young; and certain dinosaurs are believed to have been warm-blooded. The reason for this overlap is that mammals evolved not once, but independently several times from the reptiles, and the products of various lines of evolution exhibit an overlap of characters.

In like fashion, the evolution of intelligent systems from proto-intelligent systems must have occurred on numerous occasions, involving quite different kinds of advanced information systems – resulting in the insoluble taxonomic problem of defining unequivocally what is a proto-intelligent system, and what is an intelligent one. We must recognize, therefore, that the bottom end of the intelligence spectrum is blurred: It becomes impossible to create a clear demarcation between advanced information-processing systems which exhibit proto-intelligence and those which could be classed as truly intelligent.
 
If the bottom end of the spectrum is blurred, could it be because the photons are entangled ?
It seems to me that communication is the solution.
The photons are in constant communication, even when they are passing through separated slits.

Atoms communicate with each other, and thus build molecules and compounds / crystals.

Compounds communicate with each other and form themselves into cells of various types, proteins and enzymes, which in turn communicate with each other to form DNA, RNA, MtDNA and so on.
Cells communicate with each other by opening and closing of channels for the passage of calcium and potassium ions, and the exchange of energy via the ATP cycle.
Nerve cells exchange messages which tell other parts of the body what to do.
The Brain is in charge, regulating all this activity.

The brain also helps us to communicate with other entities including the animals (and plants)

The brain also conceives ideas such as communicating with our higher selves.

So here we are.
Communicating with each other by using the ideas and inventions of each others brains, and the brains of those who have gone before us, on whose shoulders we stand.
One more step up the ladder, so that someone else can come behind us.
 
The question puzzles me as then I take it that the consciousness units we are now (us 3rd D) must have originally started at 1st D right ? So I guess with all that my ultimate question is if I started as a stone, or a pile of stone, what is the natural process that got me here today.

Sorry if I'm not too clear, English is not my first language si its sometimes laborious to try to convey complex ideas or thoughts.

As i understand this matter , consciousness experiences are things that matters. In other words consciousness on 1D can evolve on 2D when it have enough experiences from the density where it is. Than consciousness must learn the lessons on that 1 density in order to pass or "graduate' to be candidate to 2D. The same principle is for 2D to 3D or any other progression. So if some 3D Conciousness wants to become 4D conciousness , it must learn all the lessons from 3D, it must learn how 3D is functioning Its laws and rules.It must learn the objective reality of that density in order to be 4D candidate.
Maybe this is not an accurate explanation but i think i helped a little
 
I'm wondering whether plants might be 3D as well...

I'm not sure whether this is a stupid question, I apologize in advance if it is for posting this here, but I am just reading Stephen Harrod Buhner's "The Lost Language of Plants" - a wonderful book, full of poetry and knowledge - in which he describes the behavior that plants can show. I read this and thought "wow! this is the most STO-ish behavior practiced on earth!

For example he describes what happens when a certain butterfly has good conditions (temperature, humidity etc) and sees a growth in population than it will harm a certain type of tree (spruces). Trees cant scream or run away so it's chemical weapons which are used. Spruces produce terpens to ward those vermin off.

What happens? The Spruces of the infested copse produce terpens, but not all of them! Botanics first thought that those trees might have lost the ability to produce those terpens, but no, they were all able to do so, but didn't. The Botanics revealed the answer when looking at the effect of this behavior: This way (some suffering severe damage or even dying for the good of all the others, of the species) the vermin doesn't build up any resistancies against those terpens. How brilliant!

There are a lot of other examples that show what plants are capable of and it is astonishing!
 
There are a lot of other examples that show what plants are capable of and it is astonishing!

Hi etezete,

I quite agree. A real eye-opener for me was the BBC documentary series The Private Life of Plants.

Worth looking into IMO when you haven't seen it yet.

Don't think plants as such are a 3D phenomenon but sometimes they are capable of displaying quasi-3D or proto-3D behavioral patterns I would guess.

Thereby laying the groundwork (no pun intended) for future transitions I would surmise.

Or something to that effect. FWIW.
 
etezete said:
I'm wondering whether plants might be 3D as well...

I'm not sure whether this is a stupid question, I apologize in advance if it is for posting this here, but I am just reading Stephen Harrod Buhner's "The Lost Language of Plants" - a wonderful book, full of poetry and knowledge - in which he describes the behavior that plants can show. I read this and thought "wow! this is the most STO-ish behavior practiced on earth!

For example he describes what happens when a certain butterfly has good conditions (temperature, humidity etc) and sees a growth in population than it will harm a certain type of tree (spruces). Trees cant scream or run away so it's chemical weapons which are used. Spruces produce terpens to ward those vermin off.

What happens? The Spruces of the infested copse produce terpens, but not all of them! Botanics first thought that those trees might have lost the ability to produce those terpens, but no, they were all able to do so, but didn't. The Botanics revealed the answer when looking at the effect of this behavior: This way (some suffering severe damage or even dying for the good of all the others, of the species) the vermin doesn't build up any resistancies against those terpens. How brilliant!

There are a lot of other examples that show what plants are capable of and it is astonishing!

Hello etezete, the density level is determined by consciousness, plants and animals belong to 2D, and within each density, there are different levels or spectra, have read several articles in sott, about how plants feel, somehow, the book you mentioned, I have found in my language, I add it to the list of readings. :flowers:
 
riclapaz said:
Hello etezete, the density level is determined by consciousness, plants and animals belong to 2D, and within each density, there are different levels or spectra, have read several articles in sott, about how plants feel, somehow, the book you mentioned, I have found in my language, I add it to the list of readings. :flowers:

I agree. Plants really are amazing, but then, so are 'animals'! Jeremy Narby makes some very interesting observations in his book "Intelligence in Nature", showing that plants are 'intelligent' in certain remarkable ways. They sense, 'feel', solve problems. But I think it's a stretch to say they have a 3D level of self-awareness. They are still rather limited (relatively - humans are very limited to on their level) in their choices comparatively. At the very least, I think the data just supports panpsychism, like Nagel suggests: that consciousness goes "all the way down". In other words, the cosmos and its parts have a lot more awareness than materialism gives them credit for. So it's naturally a shock when we encounter evidence for this, steeped as we are in materialistic philosophy. Probably even electrons 'sense' their interactions with each other and other particles.
 

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