Don Juan & "The Enemies of a Man of Knowledge"

Dylan

Jedi
Insightful! Thanks! Gives me some things to consider for my weekly curling match in which I find myself hopelessly lost in the clubhouse while the fellas discuss the latest sports info! I like the idea of focusing on being present and doin my best to engage people on their own terms, because, as you say, it may lead to some unexpected results.

I am usually considered pretty easy to get along with and do my best to be present and off the phone, but there is certainly room for improvement.
 

emmanuel

Jedi Master
Alada said:
panca kanga said:
Dylan said:
Isn't it the case that the STS nature of people is, in some instances destructive to our path regardless? Or is there a threshold where external consideration yields to self preservation?
I thought that a lot of the point of External Consideration was that it is a self protective strategy. In the same way as STO helps self by helping others so STO protects self by considering others - not imposing unwanted points of view or ways of behaviour upon the other. After all, if you try to impose some thing on someone that they do not want or are not interested, in they are quite likely react negatively and strike back in some way.
These are important points I think, external consideration is about being attentive to the needs of others, of considering them first and adapting our manner accordingly in order to help them – which in turn helps us. As others have stated there can be no hard and fast rules, and there will be pathological types from whom it is certainly best to get clear of, but the question should be always be approached carefully and things given due consideration. Networking helps.

Many people tend to consider the question of this or that person becoming an ‘enemy’ from completely the wrong angle, get into the wrong mode of thinking about it, an ‘us and them’ type of thing which helps no one. We forget or fail to even notice that it is not other people who have changed, but something in us that is now different. From this point of view it is we who have become the enemy. If we say or do silly things, change drastically overnight or whatever we only have ourselves to blame then if attack comes our way which might otherwise have been avoided.

[quote author=In Search of the Miraculous]
"General conditions at the beginning of the work are usually of the following kind. First of all it is explained to all the members of a group that they must keep secret everything they hear or learn in the group and not only while they are members of it but forever afterwards.

"This is an indispensable condition whose idea should be clear to them from the very beginning. In other words, it should be clear to them that in this there is no attempt whatever to make a secret of what is not essentially a secret, neither is there any deliberate intention to deprive them of the right to exchange views with those near to them or with their friends.

"The idea of this restriction consists in the fact that they are unable to transmit correctly what is said in the groups. They very soon begin to learn from their own personal experience how much effort, how much time, and how much explaining is necessary in order to grasp what is said in groups. It becomes clear to them that they are unable to give their friends a right idea of what they have learned themselves. At the same time also they begin to understand that by giving their friends wrong ideas they shut them off from any possibility of approaching the work at any time or of understanding anything in connection with the work, to say nothing of the fact that in this way they are creating very many difficulties and even very much unpleasantness for themselves in the future. If a man in spite of this tries to transmit what he hears in groups to his friends he will very quickly be convinced that attempts in this direction give entirely unexpected and undesirable results. Either people begin to argue with him and without wanting to listen to him expect him to listen to their theories, or they misinterpret everything he tells them, attach an entirely different meaning to everything they hear from him. In seeing this and understanding the uselessness of such attempts a man begins to see one aspect of this restriction.

"The other and no less important side consists in the fact that it is very difficult for a man to keep silent about things that interest him. He would like to speak about them to everyone with whom he is accustomed to share his thoughts, as he calls it. This is the most mechanical of all desires and in this case silence is the most difficult abstinence of all. But if a man understands this or, at least, if he follows this rule, it will constitute for him the best exercise possible for self-remembering and for the development of will. Only a man who can be silent when it is necessary can be master of himself.

"But for many people it is very difficult to reconcile themselves to the thought that one of their chief characteristics consists in undue talkativeness, especially for people who are accustomed to regard themselves as serious or sound persons, or for those who regard themselves as silent persons who are fond of solitude and reflection. And for this reason this demand is especially important. In remembering about this and in carrying it out, a man begins to see sides of himself which he never noticed before.”
It’s a mistake I’ve made myself, and goes something like this... When you begin to talk to others about ideas which to them have suddenly appeared completely out of nowhere (and in which they have no interest), to them it is as if a small spot has suddenly appeared on your forehead. The more we talk, the more we start to act differently towards others (lack of external consideration), the more the spot grows becoming larger by the day. It begins to irritate people, while we on the other hand are completely oblivious to it’s appearance, and so we carry on.

Finally we can talk so much (nonsense) that the little annoying spot grows into a huge target, now folk have something to aim for! It’s like the playground joke of sticking a note on someones back reading “kick me”, only we attach the note on ourselves. If things get hooked up to an us/them, everyone else is an ‘enemy’ attitude, then that shows through loud and clear to others as well I think in aloof/standoffish/condescending way. By that point, not only have we placed the target on our head, we’re leaving arrows around the place too.

“Always expect attack! Especially if it will cause problems later on” as the Cs put it. From this point of view we can become our own worst enemy. The best line of defence against ourselves while working out with whom we wish to spend time with and whom we’d rather not, is (as much as is sensible) not outwardly to not change anything about us form other’s point of view. And certainly not to waffle on about matters in which they have zero interest.

Stick with whatever worked before, but do it consciously, learn play a role. If Bob always liked to talk with you about football, then talk about football. If Mary likes to make small talk and gossip, then do that – whatever it takes! Whatever works for them, works for us. If we’re more attentive to the needs of others, do everything we can to make their lives easier, make them more comfortable and feel at ease around is, then we’re far less likely to make ourselves their enemy.

Worth remembering at this time of year as many of us head off for family get-togethers. Much energy can be conserved!
[/quote]

Very, very insightful. Thank you Alada for this wise words...
 

patty2292

Jedi Master
Much food for thought has been supplied by this thread!
Exactly what was needed, at precisely the right time, for myself as slowly overcoming the first enemy: Fear.
Amazing insight on how the four enemy's can portray themselves as companions when overcoming the previous one.

Personally i have experienced the illusion of Clarity and Power without fully being rid of my Fear. Is this possible? Could it be said that the grandiose self masks the fear, thus creating the illusion of Clarity and in turn creates a false sense of Power, without actually getting past the first hurdle?

Having this now three story layered illusion, seemingly makes it harder to take the first stage of fear by the horns, so to speak. As first, one must now rid himself of the superficial power, which in turn leads to understanding that he has little clarity and now sets him back to the increased build up of fear that was at the route of it all.

Also alot of clarity has been shown on how external consideration can be implemented into ones life for me, to make the day easier at work or social/family events. Upon reading i was able to recap on times i have failed at externally considering, while thinking i was doing it fully.
Very insightful read for the morning! Will be adding to my favorites to continue re evaluating myself as i progress more deeply into the work!
 

riclapaz

Dagobah Resident
Hello, recently I finished reading two books of Carlos Castaneda "The Teachings of Don Juan" and "Silent knowledge" even have to read "The Fire" and "The Active Side of Infinity" I confess that I am pleasantly surprised by the similarities I have found with the books of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky in controlling the false perosonalidad and prepare the way for the so take real self control, Don Juan mentions as the descent of spirit, also tells us that every apprentice "brujo "need to save energy for the development of self, and this is the main problem we have the most people give energy to the things of everyday life and ended without the energy needed to do the work, another interesting point is the heightened awareness mentioned Don Juan this is achieved after making several conscious effort, situations that cause shock and make you look beyond the senses, if I remember correctly (someone can correct me please) Gurdjieff said in this regard:

"The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the Fourth Way"

Regarding the silencionsos enemies of a man of knowledge (fear, clarity, power and age) understand that man will always be constantly learning and each new day would be a challenge to overcome and never think you know everything.

:read:
 

patty2292

Jedi Master
I felt a surge of energy and reassurance to continue the push after re-reading this after completely forgetting it for half a year.

Thinking of it so simply and seeing the stages, trying to perceive what one you are in is, for me, extremely useful when self observing and looking back to the state of mind you have recently been in.

It is a hard fight, and as I mentioned in my previous post, that I thought I was drifting through some stages again and again, it's now clear that I was just going through one stage that was shadowed by others. Fear. Dissociation and any mask to cover this fear up was rampant.

Seeing it now, it is an overwhelming experience to plunge into The Work and Trying to be all macho bravodo with it - thinking you can take on the world, is just a scared man's defense mechanism. A defense against the unknown!
 

PERLOU

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Merci pour tous vos partages instructifs... Depuis que j'ai découvert les livres de Laura, Sott (presse) et votre forum, j'ai fait parvenir les titres des livres aux personnes qui me sont proches sans recevoir un grand enthousiasme, ils n'ont pas le temps, trop impliqués dans leur vie quotidienne... Je pense ainsi avoir fait mon travail SDA sans insister davantage pour respecter leur libre arbitre... Qu'en pensez vous ?...

Sauf avec Jacques Dorval "La Grande Révélation" qui sait de quoi il s'agit, j'ai parlé de vous Laura sur son forum et je me suis permis de répondre à certains commentaires car mon message avait été mal interprété...
http://www.la-grande-revelation.com/la-terre-creuse-une-theorie-censuree-a1784466



Thank you for all your informative sharing ... Since I discovered the books of Laura, Sott (press) and your board, I sent the book titles to people who are close to me without receiving great enthusiasm, they do not have the time, too involved in their daily lives ... I think have done my job without SDA emphasis to respect their free will ... What do you think? ...

Except with Jacques Dorval 'The Great Revelation' who knows what it is, I told you Laura on his forum and I allowed myself to address some comments because my message was misinterpreted ...
http://www.la-grande-revelation.com/la-terre-creuse-une-theorie-censuree-a1784466
 

okiron

Padawan Learner
An incident happen to me not long ago and I think it falls into "enemies of a man of knowledge".
Now it has been a very long time since I felt my life was in danger, and so here comes this situation that took me to the point of confrontation. It was between myself and my younger brother whose mentally ill and has issues with drugs and alcohol. Well I live with my elderly parents and when my brother comes around he creates all kind of chaos, and the next thing you know he's staying longer and longer, and than one day he just moves in without permission.
Now my parents did not have the energy to argue with him and to deal with his moods and his outburst of anger. Me on the other hand, tried to talk to him, to reason with him, and to teach him about his inappropriate behavior,...etc. it worked for little awhile but his personality would change so suddenly, that it makes me think he might have multiple personality disorder or something like that , I don't know. But I can see that it was wearing me down, draining the life out of me, so what did I do, I would meditate about the situation and ask for some guidance. And what came to mind was Don Juan's "petty tyrant" . I thought about that and realized that this was an opportunity. I did not have to seek for a petty tyrant it came to me.
It was difficult at first but the changes were so subtle, I focused on remembering myself and fill my thoughts on the fourth way and what it all means and how to apply it etc. naturally I would fall and find myself forgetting and become angry and bitter but than I would try again and again. Well to shorten the story without much more detail, the day had come, the blow out between my brother and I.
I was sitting in the dinning table watching TV when my brother stomps in and starts to rant all kinds of nonsense, naming calling and throwing false accusation at me. But he's been doing that, the longer he stayed but on that day it was different. He became this person that I did not recognize! I then, sort of enter this state where i was Observant and aware of his every move, while remaining silent and just sat there, pretending to ignore him by keeping my eyes on the TV. He would tried to move in the direction to make eye contact but i would not. He even threw a can of soda at me which fell to the ground splattered all over the floor, and than, he came creeping behind me and whispered "Your gonna get yours". which send chills up my spine. My whole body was telling me "danger, danger" and my heart was beating so fast.
It was at this point, i found myself asking, " do you have the destiny of a mouse and something about a lion, I couldn't remember the exact quote that I read somewhere in the C's transcript, but anyways, somewhere within me, understood it, and made a choice. And so, I stood my ground no matter what and awaited for his next move. But he did nothing more and just walked away.
So in a way, I think at that moment is where I confronted my Fear? And also, i was no longer fearful about confronting my parents to decide once in for all; either my brother moves out or I will. They hesitated to give me an answer so, I packed my belonging and moved out.
Now you must understand the circumstance of the situation, my mother is in a wheelchair can barely stand and she knows she needs help from me, but she refuse to let go of her son and my father stays in his room, not much help to my mother, keeping himself in denial from his environment. So these building up of this type of friction within me, in whether or not to stay, suddenly became very clear to me.
To make it short, went through more drama after that, but the family finally got together and through team effort decided what would be the best for everyone.
I hope this relates to the topic and please excuse my lack of skillful writing.
 

PERLOU

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Quelle expérience difficile vous devez vivre... Je vous envoie beaucoup de courage...

How difficult experience you have to live ... I send you a lot of courage ...
 

zak

Jedi Council Member
PERLOU said:
Merci pour tous vos partages instructifs... Depuis que j'ai découvert les livres de Laura, Sott (presse) et votre forum, j'ai fait parvenir les titres des livres aux personnes qui me sont proches sans recevoir un grand enthousiasme, ils n'ont pas le temps, trop impliqués dans leur vie quotidienne... Je pense ainsi avoir fait mon travail SDA sans insister davantage pour respecter leur libre arbitre... Qu'en pensez vous ?...

Sauf avec Jacques Dorval "La Grande Révélation" qui sait de quoi il s'agit, j'ai parlé de vous Laura sur son forum et je me suis permis de répondre à certains commentaires car mon message avait été mal interprété...
http://www.la-grande-revelation.com/la-terre-creuse-une-theorie-censuree-a1784466



Thank you for all your informative sharing ... Since I discovered the books of Laura, Sott (press) and your board, I sent the book titles to people who are close to me without receiving great enthusiasm, they do not have the time, too involved in their daily lives ... I think have done my job without SDA emphasis to respect their free will ... What do you think? ...

Except with Jacques Dorval 'The Great Revelation' who knows what it is, I told you Laura on his forum and I allowed myself to address some comments because my message was misinterpreted ...
http://www.la-grande-revelation.com/la-terre-creuse-une-theorie-censuree-a1784466
I passed too by this experience, and i think it's better to focus on your own learning, to assimilate it, and live your life trough,
and the people who are really interested will come to talk with you or not.
I think the most of the members of the forum were in this case, so that's why this window giving by Laura is so important.
 

PERLOU

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Merci pour vos sages paroles Zak...

Thank you for your wise words Zak ...
 
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