I'd say it rather confirms what I wrote: the idea that X is the "collective conscious of Earth" is interesting and not wrong in a sense, but it's a wholly materialist take.
Elon Musk: Tech Genius! Green Warrior! Biz King! Good Oligarch?
- Thread starter MichaelM
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I'd say it rather confirms what I wrote: the idea that X is the "collective conscious of Earth" is interesting and not wrong in a sense, but it's a wholly materialist take.
fifty_five
Jedi Master
Laura I was and am being ironic. Figures the subject is convinced that he impersonates consciousness and determines the real i.e. the assemblage point. His arrogance has no limits. just as Western arrogance has no limits,.
I haven‘t followed the recent drama over H1B Visas at all closely, so take it with a big grain of salt:
One of my first reactions when I heard about that “scandal“ was that the issue might be stirred up on purpose by the PTB in order to undermine the upcoming things Musk is planning to do as part of the Trump administration’s efforts. The second thing this might be for is to create tensions and conflict between Trump and Musk himself. And the third might be to create discontent within the MAGA movement against Trump. I remember the drama the mainstream confronted Musk with already before he was officially part of the Trump team: They tried to expose Musk for hiring illegals and/or immigrants for low cost work.
So, I‘m rather skeptical about the whole H1B Visa “revelations“ and what the real purpose behind it is.
And anyone being surprised that a high level business guy like Musk would/could do such a thing strikes me as quite naive because you have to basically live under a rock not to know that things like this have been a very common thing and it wouldn’t be surprising at all if Musk wouldn’t have made use of it (as almost everyone else has).
One of my first reactions when I heard about that “scandal“ was that the issue might be stirred up on purpose by the PTB in order to undermine the upcoming things Musk is planning to do as part of the Trump administration’s efforts. The second thing this might be for is to create tensions and conflict between Trump and Musk himself. And the third might be to create discontent within the MAGA movement against Trump. I remember the drama the mainstream confronted Musk with already before he was officially part of the Trump team: They tried to expose Musk for hiring illegals and/or immigrants for low cost work.
So, I‘m rather skeptical about the whole H1B Visa “revelations“ and what the real purpose behind it is.
And anyone being surprised that a high level business guy like Musk would/could do such a thing strikes me as quite naive because you have to basically live under a rock not to know that things like this have been a very common thing and it wouldn’t be surprising at all if Musk wouldn’t have made use of it (as almost everyone else has).
I think this is very true, but I don't think this whole debate was engineered. Remember it was Musk and Vivek themselves who sort of started it.
What's going on here IMO is that the H1B issue is the perfect lightning rod for deep contradictions between the populist/MAGA movement and the liberal global world order. The two most important aspects of this are:
1) MAGA and other populist movements are fundamentally about stopping mass immigration and putting the homeland first. But since America is part of the globalized world (indeed the driver for globalization), it is embedded economically in the global system, where the American business model is offshoring labor, importing cheap(er) labor, doing the global finance thing based on a dominant dollar, etc. As an empire, this eventually will cause problems and people generally hate it, but how do you extract yourself from it without ruining your economy? Also, this model relies on America/the West as being seen as the golden billion, the cultural focal point everybody looks up to and therefore wants to be there and share in its culture. As this cultural pull disappears, people will just move there to make a buck and send money home, gaming the system, etc.
2) The race issue. Although many MAGA types and other populists in the West often don't really go there, it's common sense a nation needs a certain racial purity if you will, or to put it less polemically, strong bonds created by a shared ancestry. In the US, that's white Europeans, and black Americans to a degree. People feel that, and hence they don't want, say, Indians dominating their companies, bringing with them a very different culture and vibe. Just as Europeans don't want to see their town squares dominated (in a felt sense) by foreigners, or have too many Turks, Indians or Arabs as leading politicians. This issue is obviously dynamite for the "liberal postwar consensus", but people feel it, and increasingly say it, while people like Musk and Vivek, being immigrants themselves, and having certain economic interests plus ideological blinders, simply can't see it. But it's just common sense, and every other nation in the world knows this and therefore limits immigration and keeps the native population a majority and in control of institutions. Ironically, even die-hard liberals can see the common sense of it when applied to other countries (nobody would agree it's a good idea to bring white people to India or Africa to run their companies).
This is also to some extent a time bomb that has been waiting to explode ever the "American melting pot" idea was created. This is all fine and good within limits and reason as long as there's an unspoken consensus that the core ethnicity stays in control and immigration is strictly limited, plus there is a strong dominant culture. But played out to the end, the contradiction between "melting potism" and human nature/common sense plays itself out, and trouble follows.
So there is a lot of dynamite underneath it all, and the H1B issue brought it up.
Then again, I wouldn't make too much of it either, because given the short attention span of everybody, the issue might disappear soon, and people on X will be up in arms about some other thing.
This meme also captures part of what this is about: an empire in its final stages, reacting to the necessities of the decline both in hard and soft power, thereby furthering its own destruction:
axj
The Living Force
Musk just wrote an opinion piece in a major German newspaper recommending that people vote for the AfD and that their policies are not far-right but common sense. Of course German politicians now act upset and the editor at the newspaper even resigned in protest.
As to the issue of immigration and racial issues arising from that, it is interesting that Paraguay where I am makes it much easier for Westerners and Russians to immigrate here than for people from China, India, etc. It is kind of common sense to invite more people with a similar cultural background, even without going into the thorny ethnicity issue.
As to the issue of immigration and racial issues arising from that, it is interesting that Paraguay where I am makes it much easier for Westerners and Russians to immigrate here than for people from China, India, etc. It is kind of common sense to invite more people with a similar cultural background, even without going into the thorny ethnicity issue.
I don't think people are upset that he and the rest of Silicon Valley are doing this - although this recent spat between Musk and MAGA has highlighted the issues. The biggest problem was Musk's reaction (subtards tweet) to people complaining and even claims of censorship on X towards those who called out Musk's behavior.
The H-1B visa debate on X has been eye-opening. I'm fascinated by how many people simply by-passed the 'nuance' that this was about LEGAL migration (however abused said processes are) and got worked up as if they were saying "No!" to the ILLEGAL migration - which is, presumably, vastly larger in scale, thus what you would expect to 'set off a firestorm', NOT the relatively smaller volumes of people migrating to the US for legal employment.
So, the waves of 'caravans' crossing the Mexican border - I guess like the waves of migrants entering Europe in 2015 - are just the 'low-hanging fruit. Assuming the ferocity of the backlash reasonably samples the majority viewpoint - 'vox populi, vox dei' - then Americans want, above all else, for ALL forms of migration to be strictly controlled. I'm probably a little slow on the uptake here, as it took this episode for me to see that, in essence, like Brexit before it, MAGA is essentially a single-issue movement: not 'America First', Americans First.
As for Musk's behavior, he's really screwed the pooch on this. At least Vivek Ramaswamy had the good sense to bow out. Musk instead began cussing and ranting at people, encouraging others to block them, throttling opposing views, and outright banned some accounts. He's made a complete ar$e of himself and alienated key supporters on X and in the MAGA movement in general. And that political vacuum he opened - however small, for now; I don't want to overstate it - has been filled by genuinely racist right-wingers who want the status quo to collapse in favour of a theocracy.
And they - like the far-left - don't care if that means crashing the US economy, 'tearing it all down', and re-starting from zero.
So, the waves of 'caravans' crossing the Mexican border - I guess like the waves of migrants entering Europe in 2015 - are just the 'low-hanging fruit. Assuming the ferocity of the backlash reasonably samples the majority viewpoint - 'vox populi, vox dei' - then Americans want, above all else, for ALL forms of migration to be strictly controlled. I'm probably a little slow on the uptake here, as it took this episode for me to see that, in essence, like Brexit before it, MAGA is essentially a single-issue movement: not 'America First', Americans First.
As for Musk's behavior, he's really screwed the pooch on this. At least Vivek Ramaswamy had the good sense to bow out. Musk instead began cussing and ranting at people, encouraging others to block them, throttling opposing views, and outright banned some accounts. He's made a complete ar$e of himself and alienated key supporters on X and in the MAGA movement in general. And that political vacuum he opened - however small, for now; I don't want to overstate it - has been filled by genuinely racist right-wingers who want the status quo to collapse in favour of a theocracy.
And they - like the far-left - don't care if that means crashing the US economy, 'tearing it all down', and re-starting from zero.
Yes, people are fed up with immigration period. At the end of the day, the distinction between legal/illegal is just a bureaucratic matter and therefore not really meaningful. (In Europe, the refugees came in "legally"). Essentially, the talk about illegal immigration was just to make it all more digestible in a climate of political correctness, even unconsciously. But it really is about "Americans first" (or Germans, French etc.), and to no small degree even in an ethnic sense.
Since he has somewhat come to his senses by now, my best bet at this point is that he had a really bad day, maybe a drug-fuelled temporary mental breakdown of sorts. It's hard to explain his behavior otherwise really.
Current rumor has it, this X account - Adrian Dittmann - is an Elon Musk alternative account. He sure speaks and sounds like him, from the clips I've heard where he's on an X 'space'.
Threatening to "got to war with" anyone who supports limiting visas handed out to "geniuses" - which this episode clearly revealed are not being handed out to "geniuses" - speaks to more than a "temporary breakdown."
Musk has revealed that he is deeply committed to his 'mission', and that that mission is fundamentally not aligned with the popular understanding of MAGA.
Wandering Star
The Living Force
That is something that Laura could also do on this forum.
By having an account with another name that does not identify her as Laura, the interactions would be genuine with the interlocutors and their reactions.
Genuineness is difficult to achieve when you have so much respect for the person.
This entire issue is very interesting, it highlights a lot of crucial points about the US. If used properly, this could be a catalyst for positive change, but alas... It's unlikely to happen.
On the one hand, I can understand anyone who is upset at Musk's attempt to "make the US competitive" by giving jobs to non-US citizens. That's not MAGA, America for Americans, or whatever. But funny enough, some of the guys upset at this visa situation, are also the crowd known as the Passport bros, who are conservatives fed up with feminist western women and go elsewhere to find a wife.
Then there's the cultural clash and the sense of invasion that people feel when their towns get suddenly populated with strangers who are very different, and this matters because that difference is sometimes enough to not know whether someone can be trusted, and that truly translates to feeling under threat. And that is human nature.
On the other, I see the point of view of needing actual professional adults to work in the US (for US companies) to keep the country afloat, a woke graduate that went through the US education system is bad news for most companies (I've experienced this first hand, unreliable and lazy) and they're western, they complain and have different expectations about what a job is, most people from abroad are happy to have a job in the first world and are more likely to be obedient workers (which isn't good per se, it's just what it is).
The more I think about it, the more I fall on, the people's mandate should be to ensure that the greatest good goes to the people. The voters, but it's not a simple fix, it's not a "get rid of most visas" and give those jobs to US citizens, I don't think it's that easy, although it may be in some specific cases.
The entire issue has to be fixed from the education system and up, I remember when I first came to the US I met someone who was just about to graduate high school, and she told me that in order to graduate she needed a certain amount of credits, so since she didn't want to take algebra she was going for some culinary and some craft classes instead, and I remember mentioning, in order for me to graduate I had to take algebra, chemistry, physics, it wasn't optional, it was a requirement, and she brushed it off as "it's not like that here". I realize it's not the case for everyone but it did make me realize that there was an exploitable flaw in that system, because of human nature.
Like most things in life, I don't think the answer is either black or white, but I do think the better local professionals you have, the less need for foreigners you'll have. But that's not the school system in the US. Most universities are set up to make students comfortable and safe, and never offended. And most have a DEI requirement. Their goal isn't to graduate competent professionals, but rather to ensure they can sell as many students/customers as possible.
So, I see both points of view and the solution isn't either of the ones they're proposing IMO, and it's not simple and it isn't fixable in 4 years.
It's like that old saying, good times create weak men, and then they create bad times. The US has had it good, and now the weak men are in the process of creating bad times for everyone. And because of that, and human nature, both sides of the political spectrum are busy blaming one another.
Lastly, another funny thing that happens, that people might not be considering is the offspring of immigrants (legal or otherwise): they americanize in one generation, most immigrant parents I know all have one complaint "my kid is too American"
On the one hand, I can understand anyone who is upset at Musk's attempt to "make the US competitive" by giving jobs to non-US citizens. That's not MAGA, America for Americans, or whatever. But funny enough, some of the guys upset at this visa situation, are also the crowd known as the Passport bros, who are conservatives fed up with feminist western women and go elsewhere to find a wife.
Then there's the cultural clash and the sense of invasion that people feel when their towns get suddenly populated with strangers who are very different, and this matters because that difference is sometimes enough to not know whether someone can be trusted, and that truly translates to feeling under threat. And that is human nature.
On the other, I see the point of view of needing actual professional adults to work in the US (for US companies) to keep the country afloat, a woke graduate that went through the US education system is bad news for most companies (I've experienced this first hand, unreliable and lazy) and they're western, they complain and have different expectations about what a job is, most people from abroad are happy to have a job in the first world and are more likely to be obedient workers (which isn't good per se, it's just what it is).
The more I think about it, the more I fall on, the people's mandate should be to ensure that the greatest good goes to the people. The voters, but it's not a simple fix, it's not a "get rid of most visas" and give those jobs to US citizens, I don't think it's that easy, although it may be in some specific cases.
The entire issue has to be fixed from the education system and up, I remember when I first came to the US I met someone who was just about to graduate high school, and she told me that in order to graduate she needed a certain amount of credits, so since she didn't want to take algebra she was going for some culinary and some craft classes instead, and I remember mentioning, in order for me to graduate I had to take algebra, chemistry, physics, it wasn't optional, it was a requirement, and she brushed it off as "it's not like that here". I realize it's not the case for everyone but it did make me realize that there was an exploitable flaw in that system, because of human nature.
Like most things in life, I don't think the answer is either black or white, but I do think the better local professionals you have, the less need for foreigners you'll have. But that's not the school system in the US. Most universities are set up to make students comfortable and safe, and never offended. And most have a DEI requirement. Their goal isn't to graduate competent professionals, but rather to ensure they can sell as many students/customers as possible.
So, I see both points of view and the solution isn't either of the ones they're proposing IMO, and it's not simple and it isn't fixable in 4 years.
It's like that old saying, good times create weak men, and then they create bad times. The US has had it good, and now the weak men are in the process of creating bad times for everyone. And because of that, and human nature, both sides of the political spectrum are busy blaming one another.
Lastly, another funny thing that happens, that people might not be considering is the offspring of immigrants (legal or otherwise): they americanize in one generation, most immigrant parents I know all have one complaint "my kid is too American"
SOTTREADER
The Living Force
I think the bottom line i.e. the objective truth is as things currently stand, certain industries in the West do 100% require workers from abroad otherwise the costs would be too negative. There's no getting around this e.g. the NHS and healthcare industry in the UK needs foreign workers otherwise people will simply not receive the healthcare they need.
Some high end technical industries also do need the "best of the best" regardless of what country they come from in order to remain at the forefront. If you've got some genius come out of India who's like really good at something you do, and your business is based in the UK and you can get that person, you'd only be shooting yourself on the foot if you don't as someone else will. The US has been really good historically at getting some really good people from other countries and this has helped it maintain its competitive advantage in certain industries.
So I don't think the situation is as black and white as framed. It really depends on the industries in question and also specific situations. I don't think there are simple solutions and I think the current framing of the issue doesn't allow for the right discussions and solutions. The current framing of this issue will only result in non-productive discussions and ultimately no real solutions.
Some high end technical industries also do need the "best of the best" regardless of what country they come from in order to remain at the forefront. If you've got some genius come out of India who's like really good at something you do, and your business is based in the UK and you can get that person, you'd only be shooting yourself on the foot if you don't as someone else will. The US has been really good historically at getting some really good people from other countries and this has helped it maintain its competitive advantage in certain industries.
So I don't think the situation is as black and white as framed. It really depends on the industries in question and also specific situations. I don't think there are simple solutions and I think the current framing of the issue doesn't allow for the right discussions and solutions. The current framing of this issue will only result in non-productive discussions and ultimately no real solutions.
